We now know what Bolster will be set at and why pvpers will start leaving AGAIN.

[Neulwen]

I don't see what the alarm is all about.

 

Once the NIM raiders get their mains, their alts, their guildies, and all their friends in 258 then we'll start to see them being sold on the GTN. Should only take about 4 or 5 months. Then we'll start to see the 258s being sold at the GTN. A 258 belt or bracer will probably only go for about 300-400 million, so at that point it would be maybe only 5 or 6 billion to get a toon fully loaded out.

 

Just imagine walking into a warzone in 258s when all the paupers are stuck in the cruddy 248s. You'll finally be the pvp master you always knew you were, because all your damage, heals, hp and crit rates will be better than anyone else's will be. You'll also get a permanent speed boost because you won't have as many of those pesky credits to drag around.

 

People will finally respect you because they know you earned every bit of it. You were clever enough to buy the hypercrates and datacrons from the cartel market, and sold them for the credits to buy the best gear in the game. You were smart enough to buy every resonably priced item in the GTN and then jack up the prices on your monopolies. Because pvp isn't player vs player, it's pocket vs pocket. You are the pvp master, and you don't need valor level 60 to prove it.

Ok, so they are making the new gear and making it craftable and buyable to earn money via cartel sales, but who is gonna buy enough cartel stuff to earn the billions of credits required to buy the craftables, and as you say, such a long time after release? Possibly a handful of players.

 

Is that really worth it? Is it worth making the pvp in this game a step worse, resulting in more players leaving? Why not focus instead on further improving pvp? The pvp in this game has such an amazing potential. I love this game, and along with the class stories, pvp is what i love the most. Things were going well a while ago; why not continue from there? Why implement this system that makes the situation worse for pvpers? Pay to win games don't do well.

 

To reiterate, my main problem with the upcoming system is that to gear up faster, we have to do pve content, and if we don't, it will take way too long to gear up even 1 char (it might take up to a year!?). This ruins pvp because not everyone who pvps enjoys pve (and they might quit playing), and a long gear grind leads to more gear differences between players, which leads to more imbalance in pvp, which leads to worse quality pvp, which leads to loss of players.

 

I have friends who don't post on the forum, but they are also displeased and worried about this upcoming system. Most of my friends have quit playing.

 

Please Bioware, listen to the feedback about pvp from pvp players. Even if it won't be me quitting, I don't want to see other players quit either, because less players also means less enjoyable pvp matches, and less pvp matches at all, and less support for the game as a whole.

 

 

Edit:

Either increase bolster to 258, or make the UC cost of the new gear much lower.

Edited November 2, 2018 by Neulwen

[Monterone]

Yep, I'm gone too.

 

The moment I read this in the patch notes I'm hitting unsubscribe for the last and final time.

 

What is the point of posting here? Nothing gets read or commented on by the staff. No suggestions or concerns get taken seriously.

[nashish]

I don't understand exactly why pvpers would want to leave because of gear increase. We've established that good pvpers don't win based on gear level, it's based on skill. A good pvper will out maneuver the best geared noob the cartel market can buy. There might me the occasional nim raider who's decked out that might pose a challenge... shouldn't pvpers want that?

Don't you want a challenge to pvp other than the same faces you play with all the time and everyone else who doesn't make a difference in a warzone? I still don't understand the fuss. PvP is the best way to make UCs hands down, Most of us don't play pvp like some of the hardcore pvp players, tbh, hardcore pvpers make it difficult to like pvp at all,

Which puts pvp players at a distinct advantage for the upcoming grind.

You think nim raiders take a walk in the park to grab gear? Even if every run was a success, how many raids to fully gear a whole group? How many hours per raid? How many UCs will pvp players being making in that time doing pvp matches instead? That's not even accounting how long it's gonna take to clear the new MM ops.

Unranked premades, running down noobs like there's no tomorrow, no help at all in chat to the player who doesn't know pvp (which we've established is.... most people) only trash talk about not knowing how to play.

Of course they don't!

Look at the vets of pvp! You don't want people to get gud, just things to roll over and call it a day.

"I don't pvp" is a common phrase you'll hear on our servers because it's hard to get people to volunteer to be hunted down like animals then talked down to by their own team without so much a clue to do otherwise. Maybe if some of the hardcore pvpers leave, people might actually try it again and learn how to play. There's plenty of great pvp players who will still be around, good players who climb rank AND actually do try to help, carry the team, and make the most of what they got.

[Lundorff]

I don't understand exactly why pvpers would want to leave because of gear increase. We've established that good pvpers don't win based on gear level, it's based on skill. A good pvper will out maneuver the best geared noob the cartel market can buy. There might me the occasional nim raider who's decked out that might pose a challenge... shouldn't pvpers want that?

Don't you want a challenge to pvp other than the same faces you play with all the time and everyone else who doesn't make a difference in a warzone? I still don't understand the fuss. PvP is the best way to make UCs hands down, Most of us don't play pvp like some of the hardcore pvp players, tbh, hardcore pvpers make it difficult to like pvp at all,

Which puts pvp players at a distinct advantage for the upcoming grind.

You think nim raiders take a walk in the park to grab gear? Even if every run was a success, how many raids to fully gear a whole group? How many hours per raid? How many UCs will pvp players being making in that time doing pvp matches instead? That's not even accounting how long it's gonna take to clear the new MM ops.

Unranked premades, running down noobs like there's no tomorrow, no help at all in chat to the player who doesn't know pvp (which we've established is.... most people) only trash talk about not knowing how to play.

Of course they don't!

Look at the vets of pvp! You don't want people to get gud, just things to roll over and call it a day.

"I don't pvp" is a common phrase you'll hear on our servers because it's hard to get people to volunteer to be hunted down like animals then talked down to by their own team without so much a clue to do otherwise. Maybe if some of the hardcore pvpers leave, people might actually try it again and learn how to play. There's plenty of great pvp players who will still be around, good players who climb rank AND actually do try to help, carry the team, and make the most of what they got.

 

2/10.

 

When trolling and baiting you have to be more subtle, but I give you points for a nice wall of text.

[Totemdancer]

2/10.

 

When trolling and baiting you have to be more subtle, but I give you points for a nice wall of text.

 

You’re being too generous.

[nashish]

So is giving pvp players the advantage of UCs, yet here we are. My argument is valid, pvp has a distinct advantage of gear progression here. 500 UC is nothing in the grand scheme of things, only nim raiders have a chance of keeping pace, but probably thinking about hiw pvp needs to be in the routine to gear. Pvp always had an advantage since the start of 5.0, and there'll never be an even playing field at this rate, if that was ever a goal.

[Raansu]

So is giving pvp players the advantage of UCs, yet here we are. My argument is valid, pvp has a distinct advantage of gear progression here. 500 UC is nothing in the grand scheme of things, only nim raiders have a chance of keeping pace, but probably thinking about hiw pvp needs to be in the routine to gear. Pvp always had an advantage since the start of 5.0, and there'll never be an even playing field at this rate, if that was ever a goal.

 

Its so much of an advantage that its literally the slowest way to gear up......Have you ever looked at the UC costs and how little UC pvpers get? Its faster to gear up through raids.

[Rion_Starkiller]

The fastest way to obtain 242 gear is EV HM and KP HM.

 

The fastest way to upgrade from 242 to 248 is pvp (including GSF) by doing dailies on each of your toons every day (this includes disintegrating crates, so you should ALWAYS have a command stim on).

Edited November 2, 2018 by Rion_Starkiller

[Jdast]

So is giving pvp players the advantage of UCs, yet here we are. My argument is valid, pvp has a distinct advantage of gear progression here. 500 UC is nothing in the grand scheme of things, only nim raiders have a chance of keeping pace, but probably thinking about hiw pvp needs to be in the routine to gear. Pvp always had an advantage since the start of 5.0, and there'll never be an even playing field at this rate, if that was ever a goal.

 

Come to the PTS server.

 

You don't have to deal with the same old nonsense you hear here.

 

Just know, many of us agree with you and are focused on improving the system.

 

Dasty

Edited November 3, 2018 by Jdast

[Lhancelot]

So is giving pvp players the advantage of UCs, yet here we are. My argument is valid, pvp has a distinct advantage of gear progression here. 500 UC is nothing in the grand scheme of things, only nim raiders have a chance of keeping pace, but probably thinking about hiw pvp needs to be in the routine to gear. Pvp always had an advantage since the start of 5.0, and there'll never be an even playing field at this rate, if that was ever a goal.

 

You are wading into waters too deep for you. PVP is definitely not the fastest way to gear up on SWTOR. Sorry, but you are 100% wrong. Even the most staunch supporters of the game freely admit that doing multiple facets of the game (mostly raiding) will grant gears the fastest, definitely not PVP.

[KendraP]

You are wading into waters too deep for you. PVP is definitely not the fastest way to gear up on SWTOR. Sorry, but you are 100% wrong. Even the most staunch supporters of the game freely admit that doing multiple facets of the game (mostly raiding) will grant gears the fastest, definitely not PVP.

 

the current fastest is to raid for 242 then pvp to 248

I just resent them adding new gear period. there's no point without a level cap. the hamster argument is stupid on it's face as obviously people have hung around for this long despite little new content, and I don't see anyone going "oh new gear grind, let me come back again!"

[Jdast]

the current fastest is to raid for 242 then pvp to 248

I just resent them adding new gear period. there's no point without a level cap. the hamster argument is stupid on it's face as obviously people have hung around for this long despite little new content, and I don't see anyone going "oh new gear grind, let me come back again!"

 

Kendra,

 

I agree with you on the "current"." What do I have to do engage on the 5.10 system?

 

I'll dance. I'll sing. I'll do both!

 

I agree they screwed pure PvP-ers in the past. 5.10 does not do that. With 8 alts, I will gear up faster than virtually anybody by just doing the dailies, and the off Ossus Weekly.

 

Dasty

Edited November 3, 2018 by Jdast

[Totemdancer]

Its so much of an advantage that its literally the slowest way to gear up......Have you ever looked at the UC costs and how little UC pvpers get? Its faster to gear up through raids.

 

Probably not.

[Totemdancer]

Kendra,

 

I agree with you on the "current"." What do I have to do engage on the 5.10 system?

 

I'll dance. I'll sing. I'll do both!

 

I agree they screwed pure PvP-ers in the past. 5.10 does not do that. With 8 alts, I will gear up faster than virtually anybody by just doing the dailies, and the off Ossus Weekly.

 

Dasty

 

How many UCs do you currently own and will you be gearing all 8 Alts or just one

[KendraP]

Kendra,

 

I agree with you on the "current"." What do I have to do engage on the 5.10 system?

 

What do you have to do (to) engage on the 5.10 system? I don't understand the question.

 

I agree they screwed pure PvP-ers in the past. 5.10 does not do that. With 8 alts, I will gear up faster than virtually anybody by just doing the dailies, and the off Ossus Weekly.

 

Dasty

 

I resent new gear at this point, hard stop. Is the content by itself expected to not be good enough to draw people in? I already have 2 guildies refusing to come back because of the new grind. So from where i stand, the new grind is obviously not attracting players to come back, and retention wise, i would think making the new content less buggy and better quality would be welcomed more than another expensive and ultimately futless gear grind.

 

How many UCs do you currently own and will you be gearing all 8 Alts or just one

 

I assume a lot and just one. Much like i will be doing. Im at just under 20k UC and if this gear is worth chasing will be using alts as gatherers.

Edited November 3, 2018 by KendraP

[Totemdancer]

I assume a lot and just one. Much like i will be doing. Im at just under 20k UC and if this gear is worth chasing will be using alts as gatherers.

 

Looks like there will be a weekly lock out to convert UCs to crystals.

2 per Alt per week.

I believe it’s 500/1000 first Alt

Then 1000/1000 for each consecutive Alt.

 

With your 20k of UCs. If youve got 5 Alts, you could get 1 armor piece per Alt in 2 weeks.

Then you’ll need to grind like the rest of us who will be lucky to get 1 piece on just one Alt every 2-3 weeks if we just use UCs.

After the first 2-3 weeks, it won’t matter how many Alts people have, especially as it looks like you may not be able to move stuff via legacy (maybe, not confirmed).

[Raansu]

Looks like there will be a weekly lock out to convert UCs to crystals.

2 per Alt per week.

I believe it’s 500/1000 first Alt

Then 1000/1000 for each consecutive Alt.

 

With your 20k of UCs. If youve got 5 Alts, you could get 1 armor piece per Alt in 2 weeks.

Then you’ll need to grind like the rest of us who will be lucky to get 1 piece on just one Alt every 2-3 weeks if we just use UCs.

After the first 2-3 weeks, it won’t matter how many Alts people have, especially as it looks like you may not be able to move stuff via legacy (maybe, not confirmed).

 

Basically I'm just going to ignore the gear lol.

[TrixxieTriss]

Basically I'm just going to ignore the gear lol.

 

I will too until there are a heap of 258 people and if I’m not geared by then I’ll be leaving the game.

[Wimbleton]

Reading all these whines about the gear grind really warms my heart. I just love it. This new age of entitlement just can't fathom having to work for something. NOWGIMMENOWNOWMINENOW

 

I will take a different approach. I will put myself in a position to be able to obtain or grind the gear as quickly as possible and get'ur'done.

 

BTW, matchmaking, gear, bolster and <insert anything besides skill>, will not help you win more.

Edited November 6, 2018 by Wimbleton

[Raansu]

Reading all these whines about the gear grind really warms my heart. I just love it. This new age of entitlement just can't fathom having to work for something. NOWGIMMENOWNOWMINENOW

 

I will take a different approach. I will put myself in a position to be able to obtain or grind the gear as quickly as possible and get'ur'done.

 

BTW, matchmaking, gear, bolster and <insert anything besides skill>, will not help you win more.

 

How is it entitlement?

 

I used to play FFXI hardcore, I was one of 4 people who completed the monk relic from dynamis on my server and that took me 2 years of farming to do. I'm no stranger to gear grind. With that said, I'm fine with a heavy grind for pve, but a grind that takes weeks and weeks to complete for pvp? I'm not ok with that, especially since I play a lot of alts.

 

I have zero problems with gear in pvp, but it shouldn't take weeks to gear up in pvp. Gear in pvp should be fast and easy to obtain.

[Wimbleton]

How is it entitlement?

 

I used to play FFXI hardcore, I was one of 4 people who completed the monk relic from dynamis on my server and that took me 2 years of farming to do. I'm no stranger to gear grind. With that said, I'm fine with a heavy grind for pve, but a grind that takes weeks and weeks to complete for pvp? I'm not ok with that, especially since I play a lot of alts.

 

I have zero problems with gear in pvp, but it shouldn't take weeks to gear up in pvp. Gear in pvp should be fast and easy to obtain.

 

Yeah, I get you, I'm also a cool guy who experienced way worse grinds than SWTOR ever dreamed of. I worked on my epic in EQ for over a year. I spent 50 hours straight in a seniority group for my first FBSS. Been there. Those experiences are not relevant to this conversation though.

 

It's a form of progression. And its the only form of progression which they can seem to get right. Not that its perfect, but its necessary. If there is no carrot, there's no need to keep walking. People stop playing once things stagnate. Then people start asking for updates. Then updates are provided, people complain about those updates, then play those updates, then stagnate and ask for more updates.

 

As long as the provide access for everyone to eventually get the gear, then I'm ok. If they only put it in NIM or only put it in ranked PvP then I'd say we have a problem.

 

The entitlement, as you've questioned is when casual players demanding access to progression rewards at the same rate as non-casual players. Or that for some reason, you are entitled to gear at some faster pace than the devs are offering it. Sry, no.

 

If you can't play as much, like myself, great, then take longer to get your grind done, same as always.

 

Everyone has alts, I have alts. How has gear always happened in SWTOR? At first its hard to get, later its easier to get and easier to funnel through the legacy. The people who suffer through the first "slow" gearing period typically always come out better than the others who wait for gear to be easier to access.

 

 

History shows that everyone saying people will leave due to gear grinds are wrong. If that were so, they would have left at 5.0 when the grind to 242 took a long time.

Edited November 6, 2018 by Wimbleton

[Lundorff]

It's a form of progression. And its the only form of progression which they can seem to get right. Not that its perfect, but its necessary. If there is no carrot, there's no need to keep walking. People stop playing once things stagnate. Then people start asking for updates. Then updates are provided, people complain about those updates, then play those updates, then stagnate and ask for more updates.

 

Which is why the 3.3 - 4.X era clearly was the worst time for PVP in this game, oh wait...

[Giberelina]

----------- Edited August 10, 2020 by Giberelina

[Aresnar]

The entitlement, as you've questioned is when casual players demanding access to progression rewards at the same rate as non-casual players. Or that for some reason, you are entitled to gear at some faster pace than the devs are offering it. Sry, no.

 

If you can't play as much, like myself, great, then take longer to get your grind done, same as always.

 

Not exactly addressing the core of what people are complaining about.

 

PvE Players (PvEP) love gear progression.

PvP Players (PvPP) hate it.

 

PvPP want everything balanced during PvP. Gear Progression is the opposite of that. The more disparity in gear, the less fun they have playing.

 

So if you say they should just soak up the grind (AND NOT HAVE FUN) while they wait to gear up then why are they playing this game?

 

Ideally (for PvPP) Gear should not affect PvP or failing that gearing should be very quick.

 

Problems come during Cross Over of PvP and PvE though. If gear is not a factor in PvP (and there are no gear rewards in PvP) then PvPP will have difficulty in experiencing PvE content (and there are plenty of people who do both PvE and PvP, I'm one of them.) Also as you said, gearing is a form of progression and perhaps one of the few rewards that can be offered to PVPP.

 

On the other hand, If gearing is very quick in PvP then it will outpace PvE rewards and Players will PvP in order to progress in PvE, which is also not a good thing for the game.

 

In all honesty I don't have a real solution to this issue.

 

My off the cuff suggestion would be for gearing to no longer matter in WZ but the component rewards should still be given. The components could be change for PvE gear at a rate that they are below the normal PvE progression. Components could also be traded for Mats & PvP stims

[Raansu]

It's a form of progression. And its the only form of progression which they can seem to get right. Not that its perfect, but its necessary. If there is no carrot, there's no need to keep walking. People stop playing once things stagnate. Then people start asking for updates. Then updates are provided, people complain about those updates, then play those updates, then stagnate and ask for more updates.

 

Right.....that's why pvp is booming.........oh wait, the removal of pvp gear and the cxp grind completely killed off lowbies and max level pvp is barely active compared to how well it was doing in 4.x.

 

PvPers don't need a carrot. PvP gear is fine, but most pvpers rather play with stats than grind months for gear to be competitive. It shouldn't take more than a few days to get full pvp gear. The 4.x system was perfect and that is what we should go back to.

 

It was alt friendly, it was theory-craft friendly and it was casual friendly.