Make Mirror classes actual mirrors

[Rylorn]

How about they just allow us to join a guild screw the faction perspective and allow guilds to PvP other guilds.

 

Actually I'm being serious, and then you don't have to worry about what Faction has what.

 

Huttball?

[Kellindell]

Yes, let's make all classes the same so everything just bleeds together and you end up getting sick of it. Oh wait, that's what Blizzard did over the years with WoW and they are starting to see the repercussions.

 

You made a list literally stating that IA has and advantage with one mirror move, while a Smuggler has an advantage in another. In the end it looked like each class had a different set of advantages... so how about you choose the friggin' faction class mirror that has the advantages that you prefer instead of pressuring the devs to make everything the same. What a concept.

 

Where did anyone state that smugglers had an advantage? All the advantage goes to the IA.

 

IAs Stun is better because it doesnt stop the IA from moving, where as dirty kick does.

 

IA's Flash bomb has a lower CD then Smuggler.

 

IA's version of sab charge doesnt have as long of an animation, and activates instantly where as the smugglers Sab charge makes to stand up, throw the charge, and kneel back down, AND you have to wait for the charge to visibly travel to the target.

 

All that is advantage IA, and over all, its advantage empire.

 

Look at all the other things people have pointed out. BH version of mortal volley is better, BH version of full auto is better. Sith version of Project is better....

 

Its all better stuff for sith.

 

Also I dont think you understand what "mirror" means.

 

In wow, all the classes do everything.

 

In this game, their are 8 classes, not 16. They just each have a "Mirror" which has different names, animations, RP and story lines.

 

Each Mirror should be the same logistically so that their is balance between factions.

 

Troopers should be the same as BHs, and Smugglers should be the same as IA's. What you are talking about is IA's being the same as Troopers, which has no bearing on this topic at all.

[Rylorn]

 

Also while you are at it, take a look at electrocute. From what I gather from reading and doing actual PvP, nothing stops this ability. It stuns people with full resolve bars, it pulls people out of cover, and when a scoundrel blows dodge (for you WoW players its cloak of shadows) it still lands. In fact, i was playing my scoundrel who had a full resolve bar and dodge up, and I got stunned by electrocute.

 

I know a resolve bar will activate on the last CC, and as a player is stunned from the previous effect, they see a full resolve bar. If this isn't what you were seeing, and electrocute actually is bugged, that needs to be fixed right away.

[bobmcbo]

IA Stun doesnt stop forward movement.

 

Smuggler stun stops forward movement.

 

I'm an operative, and debilitate (I'm assuming thats what you're talking about) DOES stop forward movement

[Kellindell]

This isn't a guild wars thread, its a TOR thread, keep it on subject people.

 

And the OP is right, perfect mirrors. I do recall there being a moderator post awhile back about a slight difference (think it was a cooldown) on an IA/Smuggler ability that was different and they said they were supposed to be perfectly mirrored, so maybe it was just an oversight in this regard?

 

Regardless, it all needs to be perfectly mirrored for RvR to be competitive. Warhammer failed this miserably (Hello Bright Wizards), don't make the same mistake again.

 

Bright wizards? What about the KOTBS mirror that had spirit damage instead of fire damage. Noone could resist spirit damage and those guys were INSANE.

 

Or the difference between a DPS specced DoK vs A dps specced warpriest.

 

WAR is the perfect example of how ALMOST mirrors fails, and you need complete and exact mirrors or factional balance is horrible.

 

Remember when alliance had paladins and horde had shaman. Nothing said lovin like getting windfuried by hand of rag and that one trinket that made you proc a second attack.

 

And then when alliance got shaman they got nerfed into the ground for a long time...

[Kellindell]

Not to mention Full Auto, which is complete crap compared to the Bounty Hunter version. Its almost like Bioware-Mythic intended us to roll Empire.

 

Please elaborate on this so I can update my OP. "Complete crap" doesnt really help me =) not that I dont believe you, but every thread I make I hope bioware might see, so I have to give an actual explanation for them to act upon.

[LordTyrantXerxis]

@op

 

 

 

no!

[Kellindell]

Obviously this post is a troll, as I've had many IA stun lock kill me. Its probably a matter of picking a particular specialty tree, but IA can stun just fine.

 

You dont understand...despite several people explaining it, as well as myself.

 

IA is running, he stuns someone, the IA doesnt stop running.

 

Smuggler is running, he stuns someone, the SMUGGLER stops running.

 

When you dirty kick you root yourself in place to do the animation.

 

IA's dont suffer this drawback. You may not think its huge, but in PvP it is ENORMOUS.

 

not just for stunning on the run, but when you are playing a scrapper, and your biggest tactic is to stun and run through the target to backblast them, you waste time on your stun by unrooting yourself after the dirty kick.

[Kellindell]

@op

 

 

 

no!

 

You must play Empire.

[MarcusElliott]

Like I said the devs had a hard on for empire, but they're mirror classes, wait... but not exactly. Lawls.

[Gizban]

With Full Auto you lose duration when you take damage. The Emp equivalent does not.

 

And with Full Auto being one of the major skills that are talented (sorry, forgot what it's called) this becomes a major issue.

[nallard]

The full auto vs the BH equivalent isn't an animation issue, but a bug I believe.

 

When I cast full auto the animation definitely seems awkward and out of sync with the cast bar and the damage indicators, so it seems like a bug.

 

Mortar volley is definitely slower and it often makes a huge difference. BH animation fires as they're rising into the air, whereas troopers have to lean back first before the first shot goes off. That's the specific difference.

 

If death from above and mortar volley had the same (or no) delay then the advantage might go to the trooper because death from above is much more obvious than the trooper's lean back. I know there are two target reticules to indicate who is firing, but in the thick of things it's often easier to see a guy rising 10 feet into the air on a rocket pack than a guy leaning back and firing his gun. The two animations offer different flavors, but even that small flavor can make a difference if you're trying to quickly spot who to interrupt.

[Suzina]

Also while you are at it, take a look at electrocute. From what I gather from reading and doing actual PvP, nothing stops this ability. It stuns people with full resolve bars, it pulls people out of cover,

 

 

This is incorrect.

[Nomiematiko]

There already will be an MMO that does that, it's called Guild Wars 2. I suggest anyone who takes pvp even remotely seriously should just wait for it to release.

 

Y no holy trinity system ? no thanks

 

pvping vs a class that as 8 random spells on is bar, that can win vs you because of pure luck, no thanks .

Edited December 30, 2011 by Nomiematiko

[Scelerant]

Project breaks Force Cloak for Sith Assassins due to the animation delay.

[Ebiso]

Too many non pvp'ers commenting on this. If you want to pvp there is no reason at all to play a smuggler when the IA does everything the same but better.

[Kellindell]

Like I said the devs had a hard on for empire, but they're mirror classes, wait... but not exactly. Lawls.

 

The Devs said it. The forums have been wiped so the posts dont exist, but right out of the gate a few of the Devs expressed adulation for Empire, and threads went flying on the forums about it, I started one of them.

 

I saw this happen in WoW and WAR, and both games were affected by it.

 

Look at the devs admitting to playing horde, and look at the horde racials, and other little things like how much easier it was to AV as horde back in the day because of the dismount tower.

 

What added to the problem was that people pointed these things out and the devs did nothing which increased the venom on the subject because it just looked like the Devs were blatantly ignoring these things in favoritism towards one faction.

 

Maybe this stuff was by accident, maybe it was on purpose. I dont know, I dont care. What I do know is, people will begin to perceive it is on purpose, and that will affect the game. Whether its because of threads like this, or people migrating towards the "favored" faction creating an imbalance...it will affect the game.

 

I want the Devs to admit their purposeful or accidental mistake, unlike Blizzard, and actually fix it and appease their player base.

[ShenLong]

The project thing is minor at best. Besides, what does it matter? Good pvpers don't whine and complain about what skill's what. They work with it to roflstomp their opponent.

 

I play as a Sage. In OP's example of Project why would I use project if he's about to cross the goal? Telekinectic throw. Channels and slows down even if it doesn't kill him right off the bat, giving a one-two second time period for someone else to peg him or cc him. Done.

 

And before anyone on the slow side says "One second isn't that much!" Wrong.

 

One second is HUGE as far as fights go. One second can mean the difference between someone healing himself in time to save himself or you killing them.

 

Anywhos onto my point. Yeah, project does take time to actually strike the opponent. I took that time to work it into a delayed burst for short but large amounts of damage.. Weaken, Project, Mind Crush, Telekinetic Throw.

 

Throwing all of the mirrors out of the window, in the end the person who is going to win is the person who knows how to play better. Done.

[tekanon]

IE Dirty Kick and Project and the sith mirrors, im not sure what else exists, but mirrors need to be actual mirrors, or one side gets an advantage.

 

The IA version of dirty kick does not stop the movement of the IA using it, but dirty kick does. When you use dirty kick as a smuggler, it roots you in place to perform the animation This may seem like a little thing, but when you are trying to stop a huttball runner, or kick someone as you run through them to back blast someone... it makes a huge difference in a twitch based class.

 

Not to mention, its just not fair. Mirrors should be mirrors, dont go the WAR route and make mirror classes that are only 80% mirrors. We saw how that worked out with the KOTBS mirror and its spirit damage procs.

 

Project has a travel time, the sith equivalent does not. Again this is a huge advantage for the sith side even if you think it is just something small, it isnt. Think about running in huttball. A guy may cross the goal line before that project that would have killed him reaches him, where as a Sith would have finished him off.

 

PvP is about squeezing out every little bit of everything you can to beat your opponent. Right now the Sith Empire has a few advantages over republic, and although may seem small, nothing is small when it comes to PvP.

 

 

Also while you are at it, take a look at electrocute. From what I gather from reading and doing actual PvP, nothing stops this ability. It stuns people with full resolve bars, it pulls people out of cover, and when a scoundrel blows dodge (for you WoW players its cloak of shadows) it still lands. In fact, i was playing my scoundrel who had a full resolve bar and dodge up, and I got stunned by electrocute.

 

Force stun definitely doesnt do any of that.

 

Leading up to the game several of the Devs talked about how awesome the Sith Empire was, and how they would be playing Sith. And now look at these discrepancies, look at the numbers of sith VS reps on PvP servers and the discussions people are having about the pop imbalance and how open world is becoming insane and people are rerolling sith etc...

 

And then think about how this exact same thing happened in WoW when some of the Devs went public and said they played horde.

 

When is a faction based video games developers NOT going to repeat this mistake.

 

Is the fact that sith are favored necessarily true? No, not 100% irrefutable. But the fact is the Devs are creating that impression, and we all know perception is reality to the masses.

 

Lets bring the classes in line before this whole thing spirals out of control, aside from the fact that it is just the right thing to do.

 

Edit-

 

I want people to realize this isnt about all classes being the same, this is about the fact that their are 8 classes in this game, not 16. Gunslinger and Sniper are one class, not two. Scoundrel and operative are the same class, Sage and Sorcerer are the same class.

 

Logistically these classes should be the same so their is balance between factions.

 

This is about factional balance, NOT CLASS BALANCE.

 

Its not about Sorcerers being the same as bounty hunters, its about sorcerers being the same as sage, and Knights being the same as warriors.

 

As someone said, you cannot spec out of what animations do to you, nothing changes this. And as it stands right now, it seems sith have all the better animations that lead to better and faster usage of abilities.

 

So right now here is the list as I see it so far.

 

BH unload operates better then full auto, although I need more elaboration on that.

 

BH Death from Above does its damage more immediately then mortar volley and thus is harder to avoid. if you watch Trooper PvP videos you can actually see how often mortar volley doesnt do any damage because of this, I just didnt realize this was the reason.

 

SI shock does its damage immediately leading to better on demand burst, where as project as more of an RP animation and a travel time.

 

Smuggler Dirty kick stops the forward movement OF THE SMUGGLER, where as the IA version does not stop the forward movement of the IA. In other words, when a smuggler uses dirty kick it roots them in place, this is not so for IA's.

 

IA flash bang is on a 60 seconds CD, smugglers is on a 90 second CD. Otherwise the skills are exactly the same. So why does one class get a shorter cooldown on the exact same skill?

 

WELL SAID SIR.. 100% agreee. good observation

[AdmiralBlue]

The only issues between the sides have to do with animations. We've already had a thread were it is was proven that Trooper is having massive delays in ability activation compared to Bounty Hunter. These are just bugs and, while they aren't exactly fun, they will be fixed eventually.

[tekanon]

So you have stated that they are not mirrors, and then you have pointed out that the smugs ability is on a longer cd......then you go on to say how the diff in CD makes up for the abilities. Are you just looking for stuff to cry about?

 

Most PvPers would take a shorter CD anyday for a move that does a similar effect.

 

True mirrors would homogenize the game. I like the diversity and I hope they keep it.

 

Edit: While true mirrors would make balancing the game far less complicated, I dont want to be a IA/Smuggler...i just want to be an IA.

 

easy to say when you clearly have the advantages the OP is talking about

[scrynen]

Seriously, if you're gonna take the easy route and mirror classes, at least mirror them right. The worst part is they seem to be completely oblivious about this. It's ridiculous. Edited December 30, 2011 by scrynen

[biowareftw]

This really is a slap in the face to your customers Bioware. I knew Empire would be overpopulated so I rolled republic. Not because I wanted the story. I had been horde in WoW since Vanilla. I and friends did it because I knew republic needed the players.

 

We are severely outnumbered which makes finding dungeon groups impossible. I play a scoundrel. 30 seconds on flash grenade difference? How does this crap even make it live? That is absolutely gamebreaking.

 

Simplify the animations and fix this crap. This isn't a small deal. 1 second is life or death in pvp. 30 seconds? That should be hot fixed immediately.

 

I am now rank 51 only to find my class got screwed for absolutely no reason? The developers even brought up "e-sport"? Give me a break.

 

I enjoy this game but this kind of crap is pathetic. This can't be an oversight but instead is a deliberate screwing over of an entire class.

Edited December 30, 2011 by biowareftw

[kainsec]

This is incorrect.

 

I can confirm this as a frequent user of electrocute, it does not bypass resolve at all ever. This is misinformation that has been rapidly spread.

 

The only thing that bypasses resolve is Roots bc the game considers them 100% snares (really stupid btw) and snares not being considered CC by resolve on design.

[scrynen]

This really is a slap in the face to your customers Bioware. I knew Empire would be overpopulated so I rolled republic. Not because I wanted the story. I had been horde in WoW since Vanilla. I and friends did it because I knew republic needed the players.

 

We are severely outnumbered which makes finding dungeon groups impossible. I play a scoundrel. 30 seconds on flash grenade difference? How does this crap even make it live? That is absolutely gamebreaking.

 

Simplify the animations and fix this crap. This isn't a small deal. 1 second is life or death in pvp. 30 seconds? That should be hot fixed immediately.

 

I am now rank 51 only to find my class got screwed for absolutely no reason? The developers even brought up "e-sport"? Give me a break.

 

I enjoy this game but this kind of crap is pathetic. This can't be an oversight but instead is a deliberate screwing over of an entire class.

 

Yup, sorcs get the worst of it, project takes FOREVER to land while shock is just instant. The 30 more secs on flash grenade they'll most likely see as a bug and fix, but I bet they won't change how the animations work for a while.

Edited December 30, 2011 by scrynen