The Bioware hate vs. a voice of reason.

[Andryah]

It's a game and expecting endless entertainment isn't reasonable that is my take on it. Even hardcore WOW gamers take breaks, majority of gamers take breaks from their favorite games.

 

Absolutely correct.. and apparently something some players simply do not get.

 

In addition, taking a break when you are bored is ALWAYS a good thing to do in life... and especially when it is something most people do for entertainment of one form or another. I would submit that this also applies when frustrated... because frustration when doubled down upon usually leads to rage or at least strong anger at some point.

 

I know we all, as idealists, would love it if a game could outpace our desire/demand for new things to do.. but that is pretty much impossible for any studio to do.. so it becomes a player responsibility to manage personal expectations and make informed choices based on this. That said.. we do seem to live in an era of strong feelings of entitlement, gratification, and delusions that a game is made for any given player personally and exclusively... when in fact.. games like MMOs are largely a compromise of content to please the broadest possible player base. Compromise is a practical reality in any commercial enterprise that servers a broad customer base... yet their customers want to declare the "customer always right and deserving of special consideration".

 

Complaints can be very justified, I am not saying boredom is the only cause of complaints but I feel some of complaints are rooted out of pure boredom or chronic malcontent.

 

I agree that constructive complaints and feedback are fine, even though they may not be actually realistic. It is the "chronic malcontent" player that is the real issue.. and while at launch and for a couple years after launch these folks loved to slather hate and discontent across SWTOR... as time progresses.. they move on to slather some other MMO or game with their hateful rhetoric... I guess because they have a 50 gallon bucket of it to spread around in everything they touch in life.

 

Realistically.. some people are just chronic complainers.... and do not even offer any constructive ideas or suggestions for what they are complaining about... and not just with games.. but with just about everything in their life. In my view.. these are fundamentally unhappy people who take no responsibility for their own unhappiness. Unhappiness, like happiness, is a state of mind and emotion.. and some people are terribad at managing their own thoughts and emotions. But it is what it is.. so it will always happen.... and it deserves some constructive pushback when it happens.. lest people think their behaviors are rational and appropriate (which then tend to do anyway... tuning out any voice but their own and those that agree with them).

 

At the end of the day.... constantly hating on something someone voluntarily chooses to participate in is both senseless and irrational.

Edited September 29, 2018 by Andryah

[Mournblood]

I recently cancelled my sub too. I've been a subscriber since day 1. I'll lose my forum posting privileges sometime at the end of November, I think. While I think it's a bit self-serving to make a post about leaving a game, I mention it here because some of the OP's points resonated with me.

 

My reasons for leaving the game aren't entirely germane to the topic, so I won't go into those, but over the years it seems to me that the loyal, core fanbase of this game is relatively unchanged. The majority of malcontent also seems to come from them, not the transient players (those who come and go). It makes it difficult to enjoy the game at times when those players are being unrealistic or unreasonable in their demands, or overly critical of design decisions, or they are unable to see past their own bitterness and resentment to realize that it's perhaps time to move on. It doesn't help that the game has essentially been maintained by a skeleton crew for years now, handicapped by a game publisher who isn't willing to spend more money than what little they may be making from this game. For my part, I've tried to bring some perspective to the forums when it was needed, and I've criticized Bioware when it was warranted.

 

It's like sitting on a gold mine but only having a toothpick to dig for the gold. Who would choose to have Star Wars placed on the back burner while a new titled game unknown to the entire world is placed front and center fully cooked on the front burner? EA I guess.

 

This is a good segue and a sentiment that I think most of us share. EA has always placed their stockholders above gamers, and though that may seem like a good business practice at face value, it often misses revenue opportunities and it's fundamentally a conflict of interest. Yet when a game studio is managed by corporate executives who arguably have no love for video games, these are the kinds of decisions you'll typically see them making. It is also largely why EA has such a terrible reputation amongst the gaming community. We vilify them because they aren't interested in making good games that will keep players like us around longer - they are only interested in making as much money from us as quickly as possible. Personally, I believe in voting with your wallet, which is why EA will literally never see another dime from me after my sub expires. I made the same resolution regarding NC Soft after the Tabula Rasa debacle, and I've managed to stay true to that since.

 

For those loyal fans of you remaining here, I wish you all the best. I think most of you are passionate, (mostly) mature, knowledgeable gamers and I hope you are able to enjoy the game at some level for years to come. However, if you find that your frustration or discontent is greater than your enjoyment, do yourself and your fellow gamers a favor and move on rather than sharing your misery. I think that's a good message we can take away from the OP.

 

Adieu.

Edited October 1, 2018 by Mournblood

[kodrac]

It's a game and expecting endless entertainment isn't reasonable that is my take on it.

 

Ah, the pitfalls of theme park MMOs. The content has to be constantly supplied. The beauty of a sandbox is we're given tools and a large playground to make our own content. *SWG flashbacks* It'll never happen, especially now that even a little content takes ages to create, but some sandbox features would've helped during content droughts.

[TUXs]

Ah, the pitfalls of theme park MMOs. The content has to be constantly supplied. The beauty of a sandbox is we're given tools and a large playground to make our own content. *SWG flashbacks* It'll never happen, especially now that even a little content takes ages to create, but some sandbox features would've helped during content droughts.

Agreed! A hybrid of this game and that one would have been amazing. What SWG lacked, this game has. What this game lacks, SWG had...it's crazy how perfect I think a combination of the two games would be.

[Ralph_Panda]

Honestly my main issue with Swtor for me is the lack of content but i think that is understandable when compared to the giant that is blizzard and is able to bring content every few months.

 

Swtor has better story and definitely better rpg aspect since you get to choose who you are than be a brainless goody 2 shoes soldier that you are in wow.

WoW on the other hand has blizzard behind them meaning they can bring out content often and are cunning enough to use e-sports and world first mythic race to make the game more popular since tbh its easier to get people to play the game when you see big streamers playing it.

 

Surprisingly even though i havent done enough pvp during this patch i always felt swtor pvp was better, yes there are always classes that will excel or be strong but nowhere near the broken wow pvp we see atm.

 

On a casual level if you play a caster in wow that isnt frost mage you might as well bend over to any melee in an 1v1 situation because blizzard has pruned much of the counter play skills, nerfed caster mobility and buffed melee mobility so they will stick on you 24/7 and rotate their interrupt/cc so you ll never do anything. (And even if you get to cast something, your 2 second cast usually does less damage than their huge instant melee strikes that dont even always require resource buildup to use)

 

In competitive arenas and even in the world championship casters are almost extinct, the only casters you see are frost mage and boomkin and they are not there for their damage but for their slow and control. The casters have been neutered since legion and as a person who only enjoys playing casters being unable to do damage is just not fun for me something that isnt true in Swtor because you are not completely shut down by melee and can actually have a good fight.

[LeMage]

... Now there's no more SWG and why is that? ...

SOE now Daybreak Game Company - although Day Break-Game Company would really fit.

They were the biggest reason for MxO's demise too. CU2. Another game, another combat update, another crowd of unhappy customers

 

The small matter of SWTOR coming on line also had a hand in SWG demise. The Lucas Arts licensing ran out & not renewed.

[Kiesu]

Honestly my main issue with Swtor for me is the lack of content but i think that is understandable when compared to the giant that is blizzard and is able to bring content every few months.

 

Swtor has better story and definitely better rpg aspect since you get to choose who you are than be a brainless goody 2 shoes soldier that you are in wow.

The thing BW never understood though, was that majority of gamers only play trough single-player story type games trough once. And for some reason they thought in an MMO this would change and people would just keep listening to the same story over and over again and that would be enough content to keep people subbing.

 

BW is used to doing single player games that you pay once in full price to play, and usually people play them once.

However, now they delivered kotfe/et DLC for a sub price that would be a fraction of a DLC full price, and let players run trough the entire story with one month worth of sub. It's a terrible business plan that undoubtedly would have made them more money if they would have just asked a normal DLC price for it.

 

I love good story games, but they just don't work in a subscription model from business pov.

 

Surprisingly even though i havent done enough pvp during this patch i always felt swtor pvp was better, yes there are always classes that will excel or be strong but nowhere near the broken wow pvp we see atm.

I Would agree with this, I enjoy SWTOR pvp far more than WOW pvp as well. However, SWTOR has a major desync issue that WOW does not have, which turns a LOT of people off completely because it makes laggy yoyo-ing frequent and players randomly vanishing from y-axis a major pain to deal with. It's an every-day issue which still to this day haven't been fixed and continues to increase. If SWTOR would manage to fix it's desync issue, people would be so much happier with the game mode.

Edited October 2, 2018 by Kiesu

[Syal]

Bioware took bad decisions about game update in the past... and it look like that it didin't learn of its mistake.

 

Like the next Tier 5 gear with crafting component from HM OP... this is the kind of update that Bioware should ask its community before to announce it !

[JennyFlynn]

Wonderful post Penny, I hear what you're saying and very much agree. It's also a big reason I've stopped engaging much on forums, be they SWTOR's or Warcraft's, unless I feel there is a genuine point to be made or have constructive criticism to offer.

[fabsus]

it is very easy to defame a hater as a troll,

but it is wrong.

 

hatred is a strong feeling and mostly this is caused

by a disappointment for the player.

trolls just don't care, but as long as they comment

in here, they still are paying sub. so who cares.

 

but if you are doing a forums search, you will find a link

to raph kosters text about criticsm. and this one is way

better than the rest and it also tries to give an explanation,

that even hater are more worthy for a development, than

all the fanboys.

 

that there are enough point given, to attack swtor,

anybody knows. and as long as they don't give a

better transparancy, why we have that state, there won't

be a end of it.

[Andryah]

it is very easy to defame a hater as a troll,

but it is wrong.

 

hatred is a strong feeling and mostly this is caused

by a disappointment for the player.

trolls just don't care, but as long as they comment

in here, they still are paying sub. so who cares.

 

1) the person who is having hateful feelings about a game, then takes time to spread said hatred across the internet, and then lashes out at anyone that disagrees with them.... is in fact trolling every other player of the game. Period.

 

2) I think you should put aside your attempt at diagnosing the cause of "hate" and leave it to professionals, because it is much more complex then your sound bite declaration. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/nurturing-self-compassion/201703/the-psychology-hate

Edited October 2, 2018 by Andryah

[ENVISIONocity]

This is also going to be one of my last posts here, as my subscription will be running out very soon and with it will go my forum privileges. I kind of like the fact that one of my last posts here (at least for now) will be about stopping to think about what you're angry about before you post a rant on the forums about the latest way in which the game has offended you. In my case, I'm not leaving mad, I'm just leaving. Until there is more new content to play, I will be playing where there is lots of new content. I'm not a "locust" by any means, I've been here for just shy of 7 years without a break. But I think that is also the reason that repeating what is in the game again (and again, and again) doesn't sit well with me anymore. Without Conquest to motivate those repeat performances of raids, or PvP matches... they do not appeal anymore. But they did once upon a time, and I'm grateful to have been there for that.

 

Peace and love to you all. May the force be with you.

 

I'll miss your posts, PennyAnn. Yours are among the posts that I watch for and read daily here, along with Andryah's, Tuxs's, Merovejec's, and xordevoreaux's— so the forums will definitely be a quieter now for me.

 

I've been here since opening day. Ordered the huge deluxe box, as well. Been a solo player for nearly 7 years now, knowing beforehand that there would be an entire portion of the game that I would miss out on simply because I prefer to 1) play as my time and responsibilities allow; 2) not humiliate myself in a group situation.

 

The companion system won me over, along with the fully-voiced dialogue and choices that took you off on a different arc, or changed your relationship with that companion— for better or worse. As someone earlier in the discussion pointed out, there was a period of time when we had to gear our companions, and have the right companion for the job, too.

 

Somewhere along the way, that changed and now we really only need to focus on what it is they're wearing. The new game system handles the rest, although we can select a role for the particular companion if we want; it doesn't matter as to gear.

 

It was a change that I've enjoyed simply because I can now experience the storylines by themselves, without the planetary missions and optional missions sidetracking me to keep me leveled appropriate to the particular place I am in the story. I only occasionally run any heroics.

 

The negative to this is that I'm missing out on still more content. I tend to run with my "favorite" companion or, in some cases, "love interest" to the exclusion of the other companions except when required to raise affection, and there's a variety of scenes and conversations that are unique to companions, whether with dialogue or impacts on affection. The content is there; I just don't take advantage of it.

 

I've played each class story a MULTITUDE of times over the past 7-ish years. I have YET to be able to pull off a patently Dark Side character. I can't seem to break through the first tier, lol!

 

But the stories, yeah, I know them all nearly by heart now. Seven years is a long time. I have my preferred and I have the ones I hold in contempt, but all of them are my favorite. How else can I continue to play them over and over, unless I enjoyed them? ^_^

 

And why would I maintain a non-stop subscription all these years, unless I felt I was getting something back on my payment?

 

The whole KOTFE/ET branch was a huge disappointment with its analog approach to what might otherwise have been a great intermission before the event that brings back the former Republic v Empire conflict we see by the time of Luke Skywalker and friends. I have yet to move past.... Chapter 8, I think? And I think I only ever crossed over ONE of my alts.

 

Mind you, the idea of suddenly witnessing a devastated Korriban and Tython when I'd spent nearly the last seven YEARS on those planets with dozens and dozens of alts, moving them through training and on to their capital worlds. I see far too little mention of that on the forums when it comes to things that Bioware has done well.

 

Unfortunately, I came to the same conclusion as others have: KOTFE/ET is a force-centric story that would have better served as a new class story for force users, especially the Knight and Warrior. In this, Bioware didn't do so well.

 

As a result, I remain in the SWTOR Classic world, still just as content as I was seven years ago, even though the game's content hasn't changed (did you see what I did there, ) in Classic. If I want something new and different, I'll have to go into KOTFE/ET, and I can see no logic in playing one of two storylines with all of the available classes, and definitely cannot imagine what it must be like to try to get to the 300 Command Level.

 

Which is remarkable, because while others can't understand what can be so satisfying about playing the same six stories over and over for going on seven years— I can't understand the satisfaction that comes with PVP, playing in the same arenas over and over and over, grinding for better gear, always better gear.

 

Yet SWTOR offers both opportunities. ^_^

 

I've been around long enough to know that all online games seem to one day just go away. The hundreds of dollars that I've spent on the Cartel Market was for digi-bits that one day will vanish, backed up to some server somewhere. I'm being realistic about a virtual game, I guess.

 

In the case of SWTOR, I'm really hoping Bioware is given an opportunity to develop a second-generation version, much like Guild Wars did with Guild Wars 2, and please! Bioware! if you're reading this, don't bring along the ape-like walk of the few KOTFE/ET alts I have in cryofreeze!

 

I think that about covers it: one more opinion, this one from a solo player who's never even been in a guild or seen a guild ship!!

 

Thank you for all of your well-reasoned and fair posts through the years, PennyAnn. Enjoy Wow, I was enjoying it, too, when I hopped back in after going on hiatus way back when I discovered Bioware's SWTOR. I played for a few months, and actually made it the furthest ever with a Horde character (I was religiously Alliance during my years of subscribing to the game). But I missed the fully-voiced dialogue too much, and, quite honestly, the alts in SWTOR are much better looking and have cooler clothes, LOL!*

 

--A voice of reason (I hope)

 

* Nah, it's the fully-voiced dialogue. Bioware really hooked me in with that refreshing approach to an online MMO or RPG or however whomever classifies SWTOR. I can't stand WOW anymore, and ESO was just as lackadaisical for me. Bioware, you spoiled me!

Edited October 2, 2018 by ENVISIONocity

[aerockyul]

The thing BW never understood though, was that majority of gamers only play trough single-player story type games trough once. And for some reason they thought in an MMO this would change and people would just keep listening to the same story over and over again and that would be enough content to keep people subbing.

 

BW is used to doing single player games that you pay once in full price to play, and usually people play them once.

However, now they delivered kotfe/et DLC for a sub price that would be a fraction of a DLC full price, and let players run trough the entire story with one month worth of sub. It's a terrible business plan that undoubtedly would have made them more money if they would have just asked a normal DLC price for it.

 

I love good story games, but they just don't work in a subscription model from business pov.

 

I think Bioware understands their fans and main playerbase more than you think. Maybe they don't understand MMO players, but they definitely understand story/RPG players. The reason I love Bioware so much is because of how replayable their games are. I literally logged dozens of playthroughs of KOTOR 1, a few less of KOTOR 2 (due to the poor ending, and I've never bothered with the modded ending just because it seems like too much of a hassle now. Aware also that it's not technically BW, but by association I include it), dozens of playthroughs of Jade Empire, Mass Effect 1 and 2 (the initial ending of 3 was such a turn-off to me I only played it three times), dozens of playthroughs of DA:O and DAII.

 

The replayability has...taken a turn...once EA entered the picture (the 100% obvious rush job that was DAII being the beginning from my perspective). I haven't been able to finish DA:I despite a couple of tries, played only once completely through ME:A, but tried a few more times. The problem with ME:A to me was lack of support and literally allowing a small number of retarded trolls to ruin it for everyone. I love it but would love it much more if there had been DLC or, again, less EA pressure to rush it out (lots of details show lack of time/development). There isn't as much divergence in the story, either, to support multiple playthroughs like those games in the past.

 

I stay with SWTOR because to me the vanilla stories are still like the old Bioware magic. I can replay them from even a slightly different perspective and there is a surprising amount of legs that the writers gave to the stories to support that. Even KOTFE/ET, if you ignore all the hatred lemmings, can do that (just not to the same degree, obviously, when they crammed 8 people into 1 person). I have problems with KOTFE/ET, too, but not to the same level as some.

 

Anyway...I could be one of the crazy ones, but I know I can't be the only one that finds Bioware games more than just play once and then throw away. If I was, this game probably wouldn't have survived as long as it has without all the other alt-holics and story-driven players.

[TUXs]

I've been here since opening day. Ordered the huge deluxe box, as well. Been a solo player for nearly 7 years now, knowing beforehand that there would be an entire portion of the game that I would miss out on simply because I prefer to 1) play as my time and responsibilities allow; 2) not humiliate myself in a group situation.

I'm mad at you...

 

Don't you EVER let #2 be a reason you don't do something. I am fine with you being a solo player, I completely respect and understand the freedom that allows you...but, for me, as someone who does group activity 99% of my online time (that 1% comes from decorating that flipping Rishi SH...I HATE RISHI...but I can't stop decorating it for some reason)...anyway...I group up 99% of my online time, whether it's FP's, PvP, Ops, Heroics, Rampage's etc...anything I can group for, I do, don't EVER think you'd humiliate yourself. If you're joining my group, all I ask is that you try. You can completely suck, but as long as you're trying, you're the best partner anyone could ask for.

 

Aside from my Trooper's and Merc's, I'm a complete tool at playing any other class...I literally look at a guide and layout all my skills in order. I have them all at CR 300 and all at level 70 (obviously), but I suck with the other classes - and I've been playing since beta. So please...don't ever decline a group setting out of fear of humiliating yourself...you won't, you'd be a very welcome addition.

[Mournblood]

If you're joining my group, all I ask is that you try. You can completely suck, but as long as you're trying, you're the best partner anyone could ask for.

 

Well said, TUX.

Edited October 2, 2018 by Mournblood

[ENVISIONocity]

I'm mad at you...

 

Don't you EVER let #2 be a reason you don't do something. I am fine with you being a solo player, I completely respect and understand the freedom that allows you...but, for me, as someone who does group activity 99% of my online time (that 1% comes from decorating that flipping Rishi SH...I HATE RISHI...but I can't stop decorating it for some reason)...anyway...I group up 99% of my online time, whether it's FP's, PvP, Ops, Heroics, Rampage's etc...anything I can group for, I do, don't EVER think you'd humiliate yourself. If you're joining my group, all I ask is that you try. You can completely suck, but as long as you're trying, you're the best partner anyone could ask for.

 

Aside from my Trooper's and Merc's, I'm a complete tool at playing any other class...I literally look at a guide and layout all my skills in order. I have them all at CR 300 and all at level 70 (obviously), but I suck with the other classes - and I've been playing since beta. So please...don't ever decline a group setting out of fear of humiliating yourself...you won't, you'd be a very welcome addition.

 

Thanks! I know it's always an available option, and seeing a Guild Ship is definitely on my SWTOR bucketlist, along with collecting as many datacrons as I can solo— that datacron I see every time I come out of that tunnel on Voss just TAUNTS me every time.

 

But this is more to do with my personality than anything Bioware did or didn't do when it comes to the PVP content in the game. I can't think of anything Bioware could do to entice me to experience that whole mass of content and experience, either. Choosing to "gate" certain things behind PVP is irrelevant to a subscriber such as me since PVP doesn't interest me enough in the first place to overcome my shyness, I guess I'd call it.

 

Grouping is a little different. I had my sons playing SWTOR for a month after they played free for a bit, and although they both felt WOW was where it's at right now, I did group with each of them when we could get online, and I found the group-friendly stories a breath of fresh air, I'll admit, although there were moments when I wished *I* had won a particular conversation roll, dang it!

 

We didn't get far, as they lost interest, and the latest installation is out now. But it was a decent change of pace. Not that it improved any on my magnificent face-rolling skills.

 

We handled voice through Discord, which was a nice improvement over where things were in voice chat back when last I would play online with my sons in WOW. Can't recall the program but I think it's still around.

 

One last thought... I can say without hesitation that if I were ever to jump into something more than solo play, I would certainly NOT stand around like I've heard some players are doing, ruining the matches for others. I'll be the one running around in circles, lost and wondering where everyone went.

Edited October 2, 2018 by ENVISIONocity

[PennyAnn]

 

I'll miss your posts, PennyAnn. Yours are among the posts that I watch for and read daily here, along with Andryah's, Tuxs's, Merovejec's, and xordevoreaux's— so the forums will definitely be a quieter now for me.

 

Thank you for all of your well-reasoned and fair posts through the years, PennyAnn. Enjoy Wow, I was enjoying it, too, when I hopped back in after going on hiatus way back when I discovered Bioware's SWTOR. I played for a few months, and actually made it the furthest ever with a Horde character (I was religiously Alliance during my years of subscribing to the game). But I missed the fully-voiced dialogue too much, and, quite honestly, the alts in SWTOR are much better looking and have cooler clothes, LOL!*

 

--A voice of reason (I hope)

 

* Nah, it's the fully-voiced dialogue. Bioware really hooked me in with that refreshing approach to an online MMO or RPG or however whomever classifies SWTOR. I can't stand WOW anymore, and ESO was just as lackadaisical for me. Bioware, you spoiled me!

 

About 24 hours of sub time left (I think? I haven't checked my account page yet but it's any time now)...

 

Thank you so much for this. Yes, your post is very much a voice of reason. And those that you mention have always been voices I've enjoyed hearing from as well. And there are others like my Dasty, Kendra, Jerba, Lhancelot, JennyFlynn, and a whole host of others I know that I'm forgetting to mention.

 

I absolutely agree with you about the fully voiced dialogue and mission/quest interaction. It was the reason I never could play Final Fantasy even though I consider it a superior MMO, and was one of several reasons I easily left WoW for SWTOR during Cataclysm. But... Blizzard has really started waking up to the power of voice acting, and this latest expansion is more story/lore and dialogue/cut-scene intensive than any in their history. It's still not quite up to SWTOR levels, but it's definitely moving in that direction and that's very exciting to me and makes it a lot more fun to play than it was when I left. Plus the transmog system makes it so that you can throw together great outfits for your character despite the gear that you are wearing. That's a huge plus for me too, as I'm not a particularly superficial person myself, but I really enjoy a character more if the pixels look good!

 

At any rate, this thread has generated some good discussion and I'm grateful for that. Please all: keep posting your thoughts, criticisms, suggestions, and feedback here. I didn't post to suggest that you not do that. It's important to let the developers know how you feel about the game when you care about it as much as we obviously all have over the years. I just think there's something to be said for recognizing the point of no return... and that's all I was wanting to put in anyone's mind when I posted about this. Once they've made you too mad to be rational about even the good stuff (on the rare occasion that there is some, and honestly there still is once in awhile stuff that they do that is great!) and you can't be anything but angry at them and the game no matter what, just think about that before/when you post. It has seriously tempered my own thoughts and posts here, and I just wanted to share it as something I felt was good food for thought... wisdom, even.

 

I will miss so many of you, but I will see what happens with 6.0, and you may see this name and these long-winded posts again some day. <3

 

.

Edited October 3, 2018 by PennyAnn

[Keta]

About 24 hours of sub time left (I think? I haven't checked my account page yet but it's any time now)...

 

You may still be able to post for a few days, perhaps even up to whenever you have your next mandatory forum log in again.

 

My subscription expired about 5 days ago, yet here I am.

[MikeCobalt]

Take it easy PennyAnn. Hopefully something comes around you'll be *Interested in with SWTOR. .

[Kiesu]

I think Bioware understands their fans and main playerbase more than you think. Maybe they don't understand MMO players, but they definitely understand story/RPG players. The reason I love Bioware so much is because of how replayable their games are. I literally logged dozens of playthroughs of KOTOR 1, a few less of KOTOR 2 (due to the poor ending, and I've never bothered with the modded ending just because it seems like too much of a hassle now. Aware also that it's not technically BW, but by association I include it), dozens of playthroughs of Jade Empire, Mass Effect 1 and 2 (the initial ending of 3 was such a turn-off to me I only played it three times), dozens of playthroughs of DA:O and DAII.

 

The replayability has...taken a turn...once EA entered the picture (the 100% obvious rush job that was DAII being the beginning from my perspective). I haven't been able to finish DA:I despite a couple of tries, played only once completely through ME:A, but tried a few more times. The problem with ME:A to me was lack of support and literally allowing a small number of retarded trolls to ruin it for everyone. I love it but would love it much more if there had been DLC or, again, less EA pressure to rush it out (lots of details show lack of time/development). There isn't as much divergence in the story, either, to support multiple playthroughs like those games in the past.

 

I stay with SWTOR because to me the vanilla stories are still like the old Bioware magic. I can replay them from even a slightly different perspective and there is a surprising amount of legs that the writers gave to the stories to support that. Even KOTFE/ET, if you ignore all the hatred lemmings, can do that (just not to the same degree, obviously, when they crammed 8 people into 1 person). I have problems with KOTFE/ET, too, but not to the same level as some.

 

Anyway...I could be one of the crazy ones, but I know I can't be the only one that finds Bioware games more than just play once and then throw away. If I was, this game probably wouldn't have survived as long as it has without all the other alt-holics and story-driven players.

You didn't understand my point at all. I like replaying games too and all the games you brought up I've played more than once as well. Replaying is a thing, I'm not arguing it isn't. What I am talking about is their business model with SWTOR and how it royally screwed them over financially. None of that you just said has any bearing on that.

 

They've given arguably the best content for free (vanilla stories) and their dlc story for a fraction of it's price.

Edited October 3, 2018 by Kiesu

[Pietrastor]

Anyway...I could be one of the crazy ones, but I know I can't be the only one that finds Bioware games more than just play once and then throw away.

Definitely not the only one but you kinda proved yourself how Bioware doesn't actually understand its audience. As you said, you love Bioware games (as does large part of their fanbase) because of replayability factor and yet... it declined heavily since EA takeover, just as you said, and now they're making an online shooter with barely TWO dialogue options max lol. I mean, how many times will you replay Anthem? It seems they're knownigly throwing away their audience you said they suppousedly understand so well in a chase after shooter crowd for some.... unexplicable reason Edited October 3, 2018 by Pietrastor

[aerockyul]

You didn't understand my point at all. I like replaying games too and all the games you brought up I've played more than once as well. Replaying is a thing, I'm not arguing it isn't. What I am talking about is their business model with SWTOR and how it royally screwed them over financially. None of that you just said has any bearing on that.

 

They've given arguably the best content for free (vanilla stories) and their dlc story for a fraction of it's price.

 

I believe they've made back what they put in, and then some. If you mean that they aren't making constant and larger profits year over year, well, that's probably true. They COULD be making more. But maybe EA doesn't see it the same way (screwing things financially).

If EA was unhappy do we have any delusions that they would have or will pull the plug with little to no hesitation? I certainly don't.

 

I understood your point as regarding MMO's but you mentioned replayability. I think Bioware used their same formula that has been successful in the past, but it was obviously not sustainable in this separate business model that they had no experience in regarding story. I think it's very replayable on that level. I find the endgame content pretty endlessly replayable because I dabble in all of it but don't focus on any type of group content on a daily basis. If all I did was Ops and nothing but Ops on a daily basis, I'd share the same feelings that there is no replayability. There's only so many times one could stomach the same scripted 45 minutes over and over again. Definitely agree about replayability in group content from that aspect.

[Lhancelot]

About 24 hours of sub time left (I think? I haven't checked my account page yet but it's any time now)...

 

Thank you so much for this.

 

Takecare PennyAnn! You will be one less poster to read that always brought an enjoyable yet insightful perspective of the game as well as many other topics, you will be missed. Hopefully you will be back sooner than later. May the Force be with you!

(Or should I say, for the horde?)

[aerockyul]

Definitely not the only one but you kinda proved yourself how Bioware doesn't actually understand its audience. As you said, you love Bioware games (as does large part of their fanbase) because of replayability factor and yet... it declined heavily since EA takeover, just as you said, and now they're making an online shooter with barely TWO dialogue options max lol. I mean, how many times will you replay Anthem? It seems they're knownigly throwing away their audience you said they suppousedly understand so well in a chase after shooter crowd for some.... unexplicable reason

 

Bioware understands Bioware's audience. EA does not and never has.

[Pietrastor]

Bioware understands Bioware's audience. EA does not and never has.

 

How does removing more and more of dialogue options and thus a lot of replayability factor show that Bioware understands its audience that loves high replayability factor? There's only so much you can attribute to EA influence. At some point though, it is very clear that it's BIOWARE and its core leaders making these key design choices to move their games further and further away from highly-replayable RPGs

Edited October 3, 2018 by Pietrastor