Crafting Woes. What am I missing?

[RyceTOR]

As I’m closing in on maxing out my crafting skill I’m becoming disillusioned with the entire crafting system/concept within SW:TOR. I LOVE crafting, but I’m just not seeing any point to it in this game.

 

• Weapons and Armor: Once someone has an orange piece they like they’ll never need or want to change it out. Certainly not for greens and blues that fill up my schematic tree. A purple may interest them, but they are far more likely to go get a purple mod to maintain the orange piece they love.
  
• Mods: Crafted mods would be more likely to sell than crafted weapons and armor, I think, but I don’t think there is a need for crafted Mods either. With so many commendations flying at me and so easily obtained, I’ve never found myself wanting for mods which I couldn't just grab from a commendations vendor.
  
• Biochem Stims/etc: Consumables. The last great hope for a crafting item that people will want to buy. Not so much. It seems there are stim vendors every couple of meters in this game. They are at every shuttle point, at every Flash Point entrance, at every respawn point, littered throughout ‘the wild’. I could spit in any direction and have a good chance of hitting one. It doesn’t matter if crafters can make slightly better or slightly cheaper stims/medpacs. The vendors are right next to me - all the time. There’s no way I’m going to run myself all the way back to the GTN for stims/consumables when there is a Stim vendor at every single “Point of Interest” (usually several in fact), and littered around in the ‘wild’ as well.
  

 

What am I missing? Why would anyone feel compelled to work with / buy from a crafter in any of these fields?

 

I'm not sure why I've bothered to skill up my Synthweaving. It's beginning to feel like it's all been such a waste of time/credits.

[ViskarNogame]

As I’m closing in on maxing out my crafting skill I’m becoming disillusioned with the entire crafting system/concept within SW:TOR. I LOVE crafting, but I’m just not seeing any point to it in this game.

 

• Weapons and Armor: Once someone has an orange piece they like they’ll never need or want to change it out. Certainly not for greens and blues that fill up my schematic tree. A purple may interest them, but they are far more likely to go get a purple mod to maintain the orange piece they love.
  
• Mods: Crafted mods would be more likely to sell than crafted weapons and armor, I think, but I don’t think there is a need for crafted Mods either. With so many commendations flying at me and so easily obtained, I’ve never found myself wanting for mods which I couldn't just grab from a commendations vendor.
  
• Biochem Stims/etc: Consumables. The last great hope for a crafting item that people will want to buy. Not so much. It seems there are stim vendors every couple of meters in this game. They are at every shuttle point, at every Flash Point entrance, at every respawn point, littered throughout ‘the wild’. I could spit in any direction and have a good chance of hitting one. It doesn’t matter if crafters can make slightly better or slightly cheaper stims/medpacs. The vendors are right next to me - all the time. There’s no way I’m going to run myself all the way back to the GTN for stims/consumables when there is a Stim vendor at every single “Point of Interest” (usually several in fact), and littered around in the ‘wild’ as well.
  

 

What am I missing? Why would anyone feel compelled to work with / buy from a crafter in any of these fields?

 

I'm not sure why I've bothered to skill up my Synthweaving. It's beginning to feel like it's all been such a waste of time/credits.

 

hard to say. I run with a Biochem, and mod maker in my group (3 of us group 24/7) and I'm a Synthweaver. Quite a bit of the recipes I can make are close/comparable to the dungeon gear I'm wearing sometimes. The stims from the Biochem are also quite a bit better than the vendor ones, and quite a bit cheaper.

 

Why not just load up on stims when you're in a town? Not like you have to go to GTN every hour because your sim ended.

[RyceTOR]

hard to say. I run with a Biochem, and mod maker in my group (3 of us group 24/7) and I'm a Synthweaver. Quite a bit of the recipes I can make are close/comparable to the dungeon gear I'm wearing sometimes. The stims from the Biochem are also quite a bit better than the vendor ones, and quite a bit cheaper.

 

Why not just load up on stims when you're in a town? Not like you have to go to GTN every hour because your sim ended.

 

That's my point. I don't have to load up when I go to town. I have 100% chance of passing at least 1 if not 10 stim vendors on my way to wherever I'm going - and once I get there ... there'll be another stim vendor.

 

If I had a biochem maker buddy I was grouped with 24/7 then I might use his, but for most of the players for whom that's not the case ... there's ZERO reason for them to go back to the GTN to give their business to a crafter.

 

As for synthweaving: I'm sure we can create comparable items. But nobody will need or want them. They'll all have their fully customizable orange pieces already. They just need the mods to upgrade them. (which they can grab from a commendations vendor for just about zero effort)

[ZenBones]

I agree, the crafted goods need to be more competitive, otherwise the only point is the goodies you can make at max-level for the end-game, and even those might not be worth the investment in getting those crafting skills up to max.

 

I'm trying to stick it out for now with my Artifice, which so far is just keeping me supplied with current color crystals, in the hope that things get better.

[Roda]

I'm not sure why I've bothered to skill up my Synthweaving. It's beginning to feel like it's all been such a waste of time/credits.

 

Blue / Purple gear from Synthweaving is superior to Orange gear of an equal level. Crafted gear get higher stats to start with and have a chance for the bonus Augment slot. The penalty for crafted year is that you'll slowly level past the minimum level to equip the item, which is where Orange armor shines since you can always keep its armor rating at your current level.

 

Orange gear is cheap and easy. People grind accomation tokens, turn them in for mods, and add them to their Orange armor. Yet that also gets expensive when you've got Orange armor in every slot. At that point, it's usually easier to have at least a few pieces of Blue / Purple gear while you Orange the rest.

 

I make a nice little profit supplying the majority of the Blue armor pieces on my server within the level range of 11th - 15th. Within that level bracket, there aren't a lot of Orange pieces and people desperately need a decent set of starting gear for Dromond Kaas. My crafted pieces fill in the holes that they're missing, which makes my Market gear attractive.

 

Find a hole in your market. Sell within that specific level range. Make sure to keep your Synthweaving high enough to craft useable armor for your character. Do all of that, and you'll be in decent shape.

[torokokill]

Agreed, for the most part. However, the stims that the stim vendors sell are inferior and exponentially more expensive than anything a Biochem crafter can make. Edited December 29, 2011 by torokokill

[RyceTOR]

Blue / Purple gear from Synthweaving is superior to Orange gear of an equal level.

 

That isn't necessarily true. The orange gear can be upgraded via mods. As a healer the only stats I care about are from mods. I can use a level 7 orange for as long as I like if I keep the mods up to date. I've no reason to go to a crafter to change out my gear.

 

I will have need to change out the mods, but they are cheap from commendations vendors - so I don't even need a crafter for that.

[RyceTOR]

Agreed, for the most part. However, the stims that the stim vendors sell are inferior and exponentially more expensive than anything a Biochem crafter can make.

 

but again, that doesn't really matter.

 

The ones on the vendor are effective enough for whatever flashpoint fights I'm about to go do, and even if I can assume biochems on my server are selling vastly cheaper back at the fleet ... am I really going to run all the way back there rather than just pay for 3-4 stims on this vendor right next to me? No.

 

I mean as a crafter I want that answer to be yes. And even if MY answer was "yes of course I would". Most of the players out there won't bother with that trip.

Edited December 29, 2011 by RyceTOR

[Rehneu]

As I can see where the OP is coming from, I have to say that there will always be people leveling. Altaholics anyone? Wanting to try another class and story out? Also, there is a lot more besides a med pack or stim pack as example, that crafting makes. I actually have been selling other things aside from those.

 

As someone also stated, what can be crafted (at least from BC side of things) is indeed better then you can get from vendors and if priced correctly will also be cheaper.

 

Again, I can indeed see the points made by the OP.

[Rodobson]

I'm doing synthweaving currently and have been reading a lot on these forums about disappointment. With any crafting skill the player is looking to what end game perk it holds, be it to make money or to have some best in slot gear. I decided to check an item database http://www.swtor-spy.com/ to see what end game gear was. I then went to the synthweaver trainer and searched for the top end recipes. To my amazement the top end craftable gear is the top end gear. The Rakata gear. It is bind on pickup, so only synthweavers can get this set of gear and it is statistically identical to the other top end gear.

 

This exceeded my expectations. Usually end game crafting patterns yield 1-2 best in slot items, but this game gives a player 7!

 

I will continue to work on my synthweaving so that one day I will have the entire set available without the need to run countless raids. I'm having lots of fun crafting gear for my friends as we level up, and trying to reverse engineer all the patterns. It is a huge money sink, but I enjoy it.

[Fatesender]

The ones on the vendor are effective enough for whatever flashpoint fights I'm about to go do, and even if I can assume biochems on my server are selling vastly cheaper back at the fleet ... am I really going to run all the way back there rather than just pay for 3-4 stims on this vendor right next to me? No.

.

 

Who says you have to run? Next time your at the fleet....buy enough to last you a while. It's not rocket science. And those stims you are getting from the vendor aren't just inferior...they are a joke compared to the stims/healthpacks biochem makes.

[jdubcsu]

I feel they made it so to many things you can just get from vendors. Such as space upgrades for holding items you dont' have to buy from anyone ect.

[VorpalFox]

The look and feel of a matching Orange/custom set of armor is superior in many ways to the mismatched look of purple gear.

 

The stats are not that important, so look will mean more.

 

Synthweaving and Armortech is worthless as currently designed.

 

Customization destroyed those two.

 

Ex. I know Im not the only one running gray repeatable quests trying to get a matching set of armor I like. A Set I will keep for L50 end game, filling with purple mods.

[boba-zzman]

You know, I've been able to find all mod except for color crystals. I've not seen these from vendors. Am I missing something here?

[Rehneu]

Who says you have to run? Next time your at the fleet....buy enough to last you a while. It's not rocket science. And those stims you are getting from the vendor aren't just inferior...they are a joke compared to the stims/healthpacks biochem makes.

 

While you make a good point, you also point out a major flaw in the GTN. Being that it really is not "Galactic" wide now is it? It needs to be changed to be exactly that and not localized. That alone will help things improve. Also the re-implementation of several locations of the GTN kiosks on other planets (like in beta) will be a major help.

[RyceTOR]

As I can see where the OP is coming from, I have to say that there will always be people leveling. Altaholics anyone?.

 

That's true, and I am one of those Altaholics but one gets orange gear pretty early in the game. Once that happens (assuming you like the looks of the orange gear), synthweavers need not apply. All I need are Mods (even in end game / high level, I'll go for the purple mods over the purple gear).

 

I still don't need a Mod crafter, however, since as I level I'll have more mods than I know what to do with thanks to the commendation vendors.

 

As someone also stated, what can be crafted (at least from BC side of things) is indeed better then you can get from vendors and if priced correctly will also be cheaper.

 

Yeah, but the vendor can give me stuff 'good enough' for what I'm about to do and its right next to me - all the time. Even if I'd prefer crafted goods, I'm not likely to go seek them out. I've got a group waiting on me, and the 'good enough' stuff is right here and easily affordable. I'm not motivated to seek out a crafter.

[torokokill]

but again, that doesn't really matter.

 

The ones on the vendor are effective enough for whatever flashpoint fights I'm about to go do, and even if I can assume biochems on my server are selling vastly cheaper back at the fleet ... am I really going to run all the way back there rather than just pay for 3-4 stims on this vendor right next to me? No.

 

I mean as a crafter I want that answer to be yes. And even if MY answer was "yes of course I would". Most of the players out there won't bother with that trip.

 

I do hope you realize that all flashpoints are entered on the fleet. You'll be congregating on the fleet to form your group. If you can't be bothered to hoof it over to the GTN while on the fleet, you certainly aren't going to be bothered to buy overpriced, low quality stims from a vendor.

 

Furthermore, why would you buy only 3-4? Why not keep a healthy stock on you at all times to reduce the number of times you'll need to restock from the GTN? I don't honestly believe that stims are going to be expensive once the majority of the populace starts hitting endgame.

Edited December 29, 2011 by torokokill

[Rehneu]

That's true, and I am one of those Altaholics but one gets orange gear pretty early in the game. Once that happens (assuming you like the looks of the orange gear), synthweavers need not apply. All I need are Mods (even in end game / high level, I'll go for the purple mods over the purple gear).

 

I still don't need a Mod crafter, however, since as I level I'll have more mods than I know what to do with thanks to the commendation vendors.

 

 

 

Yeah, but the vendor can give me stuff 'good enough' for what I'm about to do and its right next to me - all the time. Even if I'd prefer crafted goods, I'm not likely to go seek them out. I've got a group waiting on me, and the 'good enough' stuff is right here and easily affordable. I'm not motivated to seek out a crafter.

 

 

Agree with you here on the "good enough" vendor stuff. This is why I just mentioned, most likely during your posting, about a major flaw with the GTN and the placements of the kiosks for the use of the network.

 

Over all, before this gets side tracked into another topic, there are a lot of improvements that need to be made. You bring up an excellent point with how early some see orange pieces. The way I see it, those need to be a bit rarer then they actually are. Perhaps the change in the (hate to say it) loot tables to make these not be an option so early or often will help fix this issue too. OR, big OR here, make these styles so darn ugly that people will want to seek out crafters in order to make something more appealing to the eye.

 

I for one, am for more options and would like to see a lot of love be brought the way of the crafters. They should be a vital part of the game.

[Roda]

That isn't necessarily true. The orange gear can be upgraded via mods. As a healer the only stats I care about are from mods. I can use a level 7 orange for as long as I like if I keep the mods up to date. I've no reason to go to a crafter to change out my gear.

 

It's completely up to you. However using a Blue chest at 15th might net you a bonus +9 Power that you'd never see on your Orange chest at 15th. Or a Purple version at 15th might have +10 Power and +10 Alacrity as bonus stats. Then if you get lucky and obtain an Augment slots on that 15th chest, you could get another +4 <Insert Special Ability>. That's a potential 24 pts of special abilities that a Purple chest would have over an Orange chest. This special ability ratio will only increase as you gain levels.

 

Yes, it's easier to upgrade Orange gear. I'm not argueing this in any way. However you are also intentionally choosing to forfit a mountain of special ability points as you level up. If that's your preference, then more power to you. However crafted armor is still attractive for specific reasons.

[RyceTOR]

I do hope you realize that all flashpoints are entered on the fleet. You'll be congregating on the fleet to form your group. If you can't be bothered to hoof it over to the GTN while on the fleet, you certainly aren't going to be bothered to buy overpriced, low quality stims from a vendor.

 

Furthermore, why would you buy only 3-4? Why not keep a healthy stock on you at all times to reduce the number of times you'll need to restock from the GTN? I don't honestly believe that stims are going to be expensive once the majority of the populace starts hitting endgame.

 

Firstly, flash Points are only one example. Stims and medpacks are valuable while questing too. There are players who don't do Flash Points. Crafters should make items that people want, and people should feel compelled to find their wares.

 

Secondly Biochem is only one example. Synthweaving is useless as people only need mods for their orange gear they love. Crafters aren't needed for Mods because commendations get them for next to no effort.

 

Also, the statement "If you can't be bothered to hoof it over to the GTN while on the fleet, you certainly aren't going to be bothered to buy overpriced, low quality stims from a vendor." is a non-sequitur. One will be less effort than the other. Currently using the vendor is less effort as a) I will pass several on my way to the fleet b) I will find one at the Flash Point Entrance C) there is likely to be one within the Flash points D) none of these require a detour or my asking the group to wait E) inferior or not, the items from the vendor are sufficient for the task at hand. F) more expensive or not - they are exceedingly affordable. I've no reason to go browse the GTN. none.

[RyceTOR]

Agree with you here on the "good enough" vendor stuff. This is why I just mentioned, most likely during your posting, about a major flaw with the GTN and the placements of the kiosks for the use of the network.

 

Yes, this would fix several issues - especially for consumables.

 

I'm not sure what the fix for weapons/armor is. I LOVE customization and want more of it. I love being able to keep the gear that I like the looks of. But it does create a less than compelling argument for being an on-going crafter of such items.

 

At best it creates a great argument for crafting the mods that go in to these items ... but the mods are too easily obtained for that to be a worthwhile past-time either.

[Sapphon]

Hi folks,

 

Some good, reasoned arguments here. I agree with the OP that crafting could be improved, but I also really like the point about Synthweaving yielding so many best-in-slot items at the (current) endgame.

 

Orange moddable gear is an attractive feature of TOR. It does present some problems for crafters, but these are not problems that other games have not run into and solved before. There are SO many possible solutions to the economic problems being faced by crafters right now, and most of them would be easy to implement!

 

Any of these could be enacted separately or together.

 

1) Make orange gear lose durability FAST. Then make it reparable only by a one-use item produced by players with the corresponding craft skill.

2) Give each crafting profession a mod recipe or two. Reserve the majority for Cybertech (unless its role is changed also).

2a) Make mods lose durability, and make them irreparable. Commendations are easy to come by when leveling, but even assuming no changes to the broken commendation system, at 50 the GTN will likely be more convenient.

3) Provide each crafting skill with one or two consumable recipes. Armor buffs for synth/mech, damage buffs for art/weapons, etc. Reserve the vast majority for Biochem. The fact is, even if these are only a minor advantage relative to stims, if they stack with other things PvPers will buy them.

 

The main economic issue for crafters that I can't come up with a solution to (or rationale as to why it is the way it is) is that there's not much of a disincentive to create a closed-loop system of alts that have 400'ed every craft skill just so you won't have to buy anything from other players, even if you don't like crafting. They're way too easy to raise. I appreciate the accessibility of a system So Easy, Even Raiders Can Do It, but I'm worried, too.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Sapphon

[RyceTOR]

Great post Sapphon:

 

...{{snip}} ... but I also really like the point about Synthweaving yielding so many best-in-slot items at the (current) endgame.

 

I like this too, but it does not create a market for the crafter as its BoP. My fundamental concern here is lack of market.

 

1) Make orange gear lose durability FAST. Then make it reparable only by a one-use item produced by players with the corresponding craft skill.

I love this idea. Repair kits worked pretty well in SWG actually.

(also would like the ability to craft paint/die kits, but that's another topic entirely )

 

2) Give each crafting profession a mod recipe or two. Reserve the majority for Cybertech (unless its role is changed also).

I'd even argue that hilts/barrels should be exclusive to arms makers and armoring mods exclusive to armor makers. The armoring mods that favor force wielders should be synthweaving for example. The other mods (which apply to both armor and weapons) would stay with cybertech.

 

2a) Make mods lose durability, and make them irreparable. Commendations are easy to come by when leveling, but even assuming no changes to the broken commendation system, at 50 the GTN will likely be more convenient.

I've not experienced level 50 yet, but in concept I like this.

 

3) Provide each crafting skill with one or two consumable recipes. Armor buffs for synth/mech, damage buffs for art/weapons, etc. Reserve the vast majority for Biochem. The fact is, even if these are only a minor advantage relative to stims, if they stack with other things PvPers will buy them.

Agreed. It could even be buffs which do things like slow durability loss, or add an ammo tick etc. wouldn't have to be buffs that compete with biochem, but any that did could be very slight and still be desirable if they stacked.

[torokokill]

Also, the statement "If you can't be bothered to hoof it over to the GTN while on the fleet, you certainly aren't going to be bothered to buy overpriced, low quality stims from a vendor." is a non-sequitur. One will be less effort than the other. Currently using the vendor is less effort as a) I will pass several on my way to the fleet b) I will find one at the Flash Point Entrance C) there is likely to be one within the Flash points D) none of these require a detour or my asking the group to wait E) inferior or not, the items from the vendor are sufficient for the task at hand. F) more expensive or not - they are exceedingly affordable. I've no reason to go browse the GTN. none.

 

Put simply, if you find running to the GTN to grab crafted stims from the GTN too much of a hassle when a stim vendor exists, you will probably still still find it too much of a hassle to do so if the stim vendors were to be removed. Stims certainly aren't required for any part of the game short of hard mode flashpoints and operations.

 

The basic idea of the stim vendor is a tradeoff between convenience and quality/money.

 

Keep in mind I actually agreed with you about the other trade skills. At a glance, Biochem and Cybertech feel the most complete, while the other trade skills need a bit more love.

Edited December 29, 2011 by torokokill

[DamienStark]

The bottom line here is that, just like in real life, the market is made up of lots of different types of people with different preferences.

 

You can rant all you want that McDonalds is not the best burgers on the planet, but there's still a huge population of people out there buying them.

 

YOU may have decided that your preferred approach is:

1. Get all the orange gear you can and update the mods instead of updating the gear

2. Buy more expensive and less effective stims and medpacks because the vendor selling them is more convenient

3. Focus all your energy on gear to serve players who are questing their way up from 10-50

 

But there's tons of other players out there who have decided instead that :

1. The early orange gear they got is ugly, so they're not going to hang onto it for 20 more levels just so they can keep buying commendation mods instead of new gear. Also it's a pain having to shop for 15 mods (3 mods each for 5 gear slots) every time you gain a few levels.

2. Sweet! You mean I can get much better stims and medpacks AND they're cheaper? That'll help me solo that Heroic 2+ that was bugging me...

3. PvE content up to 50 wasn't that hard, I just want the best gear at 50 so I can do well in PvP or Ops and Flashpoints. Now I can buy gear that was crit crafted to have Augment slots, and if I craft myself I can get the true best stuff.

 

Neither one is "correct", but both exist in the market. As another poster said, hop on the GTN and look for the holes in your local market. What tier isn't being sold, or is only being sold at ridiculous prices? That's your opportunity.

 

Lastly, since we're still in the first month or so after release, things look a little different. When choosing whether to buy gear from GTN vs fill your orange gear with commendation mods, the fact that there isn't a reliable supply of blue gear for all types and levels yet on GTN helps push players towards orange. If I knew I could count on filling all my gear slots with affordable blues from crafters every few levels, my next alt wouldn't wear a single orange item until near the endgame. But I can't count on that right now, so for now about half my gear is orange and I pick up the belts and braces and boots whenever I spot them on GTN...