This game is not dying

[annabethchase]

Aah yes but this is fan theory. The writers themselves haven't actually given an concrete evidence for any of these theories fans are having (there are many). I'm talking about what has been given to us concretely in the past vs now.

 

Btw, you can be a fantasy and/or scifi world and it can still be completely logical within the boundaries it has created for itself. Just because it's fantasy doesn't mean everything needs to be explained with magic and convenience. It's just easier to not follow logic of past rules of the galaxy rather than think what and why in the said fictional universe would work in its continuity.

I feel like so many people who just say "it's fantasy it doesn't have to make sense" don't realize that would mean we could throw mickey mouse and superman in EP9 and by their logic it would make perfect sense because it's fantasy and fictional and "everything is possible". Extreme example but serves the same logic.

Which is why we set certain rules even in fictional worlds that might not make sense in the real world, but still make sense in the fictional world, so that we wouldn't get these giant miss-connections in fiction just because "everything is possible is fantasy" is an argument.

^ this is my argument. Even fantasy land needs a set of rules and continuity so everything doesn't go cray cray.

 

A set of 10 surface canons on a massive new untested prototype Dreadnought not functioning perfectly is a believable circumstance.

1) maybe Poe flies better than the test pilots

2) maybe there were no test pilots for that system. Hux wasn't exactly thorough.

3) maybe it was only tested at x range and poe was getting inside of the range thanks to his hyperspace jump maneuver

4) maybe the engineers who designed that canon designed it for a Destroyer and the configuration of the Dreadnought should have been different

5) maybe the FO didn't really have engineers

6) maybe the engineers were slave labor and didn't care

7) maybe the engineers were slave labor and actively sabotaged where possible

8) maybe the dreadnought projected was rushed (2nd death star)

9) maybe the FO was underfunded, or at least resource constrained to only what they could steal while they hided in the corners of the galaxy.

 

All of these answers above are things we've seen something similar in the 10 SW movies. So they are internally consistent with established SW lore.

 

Are they believable? Yes, to me through the context of a Space Fantasy where the Sci-Fi is highly stylized, not realistic.

 

This isn't an argument about bombs falling "down" in space, clearly things like that are done for the visual impact not the science. The above argument is that in-universe SW lore says that the Empire/FO has it's weaknesses here.

 

Sadly, I do fear the day that we bump into the Guardians of the Galaxy in an SW movie. It's entirely possible a future movie may not be set "A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away".

 

Anyway, have a good one. I think honestly we're just watching the same film in an entirely different genre. To each his own.

Edited July 30, 2018 by annabethchase

[XxHazenxX]

Why the hell are we talking about the SW movies in this thread?

[Karameck]

Even fantasy land needs a set of rules and continuity so everything doesn't go cray cray.

I agree Fantasy needs rules, but I also don't think the new Trilogy has broken any rules we've seen set forth in Star Wars thus far.

 

Honestly I think people forget how much other crazy, canon, things the force has already given us. I'm happy to believe Rey is a balance to Kylo as it not only explains everything, it explains it in a way that makes sense in universe to me.

 

Let's not forget we've already collectively agreed to believe that Anakin's mom was Force impregnated....

Edited July 30, 2018 by Karameck

[Karameck]

Why the hell are we talking about the SW movies in this thread?

Because people who want to believe this game is dying also like to claim Star Wars as a whole is dying.

[TrixxieTriss]

Because people who want to believe this game is dying also like to claim Star Wars as a whole is dying.

 

What a load of codswalop. Nobody is claiming SW is dying

[Karameck]

What a load of codswalop. Nobody is claiming SW is dying

Yes they are. I see it all the time. DOesn't mean it's true but it is a very common claim, especially in some circles.

[TrixxieTriss]

Yes they are. I see it all the time. DOesn't mean it's true but it is a very common claim, especially in some circles.

 

Let me rephrase it. Nobody in this thread is saying SW is dying.

You know it’s possible to have a rigorous debate about the quality of the movies and Disney’s management of the IP and not mean the SW brand is dying, which is what we are doing.

Trying to link this game’s health and that part of the discussion together by saying people who think the game is dying also think SW is dying, is the “codswolop” part of your statement.

Edited July 30, 2018 by TrixxieTriss

[Kiesu]

I agree Fantasy needs rules, but I also don't think the new Trilogy has broken any rules we've seen set forth in Star Wars thus far.

 

Honestly I think people forget how much other crazy, canon, things the force has already given us. I'm happy to believe Rey is a balance to Kylo as it not only explains everything, it explains it in a way that makes sense in universe to me.

 

Let's not forget we've already collectively agreed to believe that Anakin's mom was Force impregnated....

Except TLJ has already broken multiple rules set by the galaxy previously, and it's blatantly obvious when you look at all the space battles in that movie. Now, you need some sense of mechanics and understanding of technology set by the universe itself to see those broken rules, but if you do you will find them and you will not be able to disagree they were broken once you've investigated how space battles worked previously vs how it worked in the last jedi.

 

Btw, trying to justify crazy by something that sounds nonsensical in the real world but plausible in the universe (such as Anakin's mom) is a very bad example of "fantasy going crazy". This is also still a fan theory and we cannot take theories for concrete evidence on anything. Otherwise you'd also be saying lizard men are a thing on earth because it's a popular theory/belief among some, which is again wrong and theory is not evidence.

 

I'd also appreciate if you'd add some explanation as to why any rules stated weren't broken in the universe rather than just saying they weren't. Where's your evidence. I can link you to multiple critical thinking articles and videos where people have already crafted essays about these plot holes and even explained multiple points myself. Where's your explanations?

Just in case you are actually interested in viewing and discussing/debating these break points rather than just stating opinions with no explanation as to how things work in your opinion, I'll

you to this extensive multi-hour essay on the subject. Sit back and have it play on the background while you're doing your dailies, no need to even read, it's all read out for you. It's all bout the movies and nothing about books so it should be easy to follow even if you have no interest in reading books.

 

Now, just because rules were broken and TLJ made no sense on multiple occasions, it doesn't mean your enjoyment of the movie necessarily got killed. Not at all. Many marvel movies have thrown previous universe logic out of the window yet viewers seem to enjoyed the drama and action even if it made no sense in the universe it happened in. This is simply difference of preference between drama-lovers and continuity lovers.

 

Anyway, have a good one. I think honestly we're just watching the same film in an entirely different genre. To each his own.

I just like my films with more consistency and continuity. When canon things in the past have set a set of rules upon the galaxy that a new writer then steps in and says "i'm just gonna ignore all those things written in the past for my convenience" the continuity breaks with no plausible explanation as to why past rules suddenly don't work for the duration of this one movie.

 

Because people who want to believe this game is dying also like to claim Star Wars as a whole is dying.

That was Disney's view originally, not the fans. Disney was convinced at one point that the fans were having "star wars fatigue" and thought that was why people didn't like their movies as much as they hoped. It was after this claim that fans took this statement and threw it on every table for discussion.

Edited July 30, 2018 by Kiesu

[TUXs]

Did we just become best friends?

! (Step Brothers...most underrated movie of all time imo )

[Lhancelot]

Naturally. That's obvious. Nobody is expecting him to be a magical super hero.

Magical superhero like Rey who conveniently got a triple tie fighter kill with one shot on her very first shot on her very first time manning spaceship guns? Convenient...

Po's epic success rate is currently 50/50 (over two scenes) and Michael Jordan's is like... 85/15 over how many games? just "ok" would have been good enough, no need to be perfect, that's a bit much to expect. TLJ was just epic failure

 

Well. To be fair, I mean MJ was MJ. No one can replicate MJ and his accomplishments!

[Vember]

Lore grew in this movie? You mean they broke the lore in this movie, right?

 

Why did resistance need extremely fragile bombers when they've had much more advanced bombers before this point in time? Bombers so slow the explosions trigger a chain reaction upon impact destroying the bombers themselves, are these bombers designed to get destroyed on their own bombing run? Why are we not using Y wings? To fabricate drama, no other reason.

The commander states than Po's ship is too small and too close to shoot, and they'd need tie fighters to bring it down. This is ridiculous, the dreadnought surface cannons are made to destroy these small and nimble fighters, that is their purpose, they've done fine job of downing small fighters before. How does technology that has advanced from the past get worse? Why is there no shields on the Dreadnought whatsoever, that could have prevented a single fighter being a nuisance, and stop the bombing.

 

This was all taken into consideration in Rogue1 just a year ago. They were using Y Wings to try and decimate a star destroyer, the shield make it difficult for them so they disable them with previously established tech all the way from EP5.

 

And if fighters are the only thing that can stop Po why haven't they released the fighters already? They wait until he has already destroyed several cannons. Po is then shot by the very first enemy fighter that counters him, not quite the epic pilot ep7 made him out to be...

And here starts the modifying of all characters to something they weren't.

Hux was turned into bumbling fool comedy relief instead of the rival-like counterpart to Kylo that he was initially pictures as.

Not to mention Pantasma, the tropiest of the tropiest 5 minute execution scene.

Luke is acting like no version of Luke in the history of the galaxy ever has, he was the one who was never giving up and always going head first to defend their friends, foolhardily so.

Snoke who was portrayed as the big intimidating mind manipulation using villain is never explained in the slightest and brushed aside as fast as he entered the scene.

Leia can apparently withstand the vacuum of space, a feat no jedi apart from one Master lever jedi has ever known to be able to survive, and even he had the advantage of his alien species being resistant to such conditions. This would make Leia more powerful than Luke (one of the strongest force users in the galaxy), with no training, or so little training it's not even bothered to be mentioned anywhere in the lore. And how come nobody is dumbfounded by this feat when the previous episode made a point of telling the viewer Jedi and force and fallen into myth, it's likely nobody in the resistance has ever witnessed force powers before, yet nobody bats an eyelid at this miracle.

Han Solo's stills as a pilot are apparently beat by Rey, a girl who lived their whole life on Jakku and never toughed a spacecraft or gunner before, or atlast not Millenium Falcon gunner, and on her very first shot she gets a triple kill!? 3 Tie fighters with a single shot, she is better than any pilot we have ever seen previously, with no prior knowledge on spacecrafts. (And she apparently also speaks Wookie which somehow surprises no-one when it's a decades old running joke in the universe how nobody can speak wookie) (Not to mention Rey also became as potent force user in mere days with no training as Luke did in years with the guidance and training of two Masters. Rey keeps getting power and skill handed to her rather than having to learn any of it). And then Solo dies and we never even get to see the grief an reaction of Luke, the only character who spent the most time with Solo in all of the movies combined!?

And Chewbacca literally doesn't even do anything in the entire movie except sit in a few "funny" scenes with porgs.

 

Ugh I was going to keep writing but there is so many lore and continuity points wrong in this movie it'd take days to construct a point by point collection of everything wrong with the movie, and with more detail (there is already people who have crafted essay sized writings and videos of points drawing from SW history to LJ on all the things that make no sense in the universe. I can link you to multiple if you wish to look them over with your own critical eye).

 

TLJ does so poor job of explaining any of its conflicts and most times stuff just goes the heroes way out of convenience, it's hard to take anything it does seriously, hence referring to marvel movie magic logic it's heavily lending from.

 

I guess you can call it "growing the lore" when you make is so that suddenly any single cruiser can now destroy a Mega-class Star Dreadnought simply by ramming into it in light speed, and talking a huge portion of star-destroyers along with it. That is a MAJOR plot hole, why in all 7 of the mainline episodes and R1 have we not seen this kind of maneuver before? Why is this something everyone was clearly aware of but has never used? The first order should have been terrified of that cruiser for the entire chase if it could have done something like that. Shields wouldn't have even done anything, Holdo could have sliced the Supremacy in half if she actually aimed properly. Why have nobody thought of making large dense ships with robot pilots if all it takes is one entity in a 3km Cruiser to destroy a 60km long mega Dreadnought by ramming it in light speed? It'd be far more cost efficient to bombard the enemy with droid piloted cruiser sized ships than to keep crafting bombers and fighters or even giant slow moving planet destroyer cannons when one cruiser could have done the job far more cleanly with no casualties.

Man was that some intensely bad nonsensical writing.

 

I'm not saying the movie was a complete miss, there was huge potential and some scenes I enjoyed immensely. But when the movie is 80% nonsensical and 20% great, there isn't many things to brag about. I'm glad you enjoyed it because I sure had issues piecing the jiggsawpuzzle of a plot-logic it had together in any way it would have made sense.

 

Man I couldn't agree more with this. TLJ was so bad

Edited July 30, 2018 by Vember

[TUXs]

Except TLJ has already broken multiple rules set by the galaxy previously, and it's blatantly obvious when you look at all the space battles in that movie. Now, you need some sense of mechanics and understanding of technology set by the universe itself to see those broken rules, but if you do you will find them and you will not be able to disagree they were broken once you've investigated how space battles worked previously vs how it worked in the last jedi.

 

Btw, trying to justify crazy by something that sounds nonsensical in the real world but plausible in the universe (such as Anakin's mom) is a very bad example of "fantasy going crazy". This is also still a fan theory and we cannot take theories for concrete evidence on anything. Otherwise you'd also be saying lizard men are a thing on earth because it's a popular theory/belief among some, which is again wrong and theory is not evidence.

 

I'd also appreciate if you'd add some explanation as to why any rules stated weren't broken in the universe rather than just saying they weren't. Where's your evidence. I can link you to multiple critical thinking articles and videos where people have already crafted essays about these plot holes and even explained multiple points myself. Where's your explanations?

Just in case you are actually interested in viewing and discussing/debating these break points rather than just stating opinions with no explanation as to how things work in your opinion, I'll

you to this extensive multi-hour essay on the subject. Sit back and have it play on the background while you're doing your dailies, no need to even read, it's all read out for you. It's all bout the movies and nothing about books so it should be easy to follow even if you have no interest in reading books.

 

Now, just because rules were broken and TLJ made no sense on multiple occasions, it doesn't mean your enjoyment of the movie necessarily got killed. Not at all. Many marvel movies have thrown previous universe logic out of the window yet viewers seem to enjoyed the drama and action even if it made no sense in the universe it happened in. This is simply difference of preference between drama-lovers and continuity lovers.

 

I just like my films with more consistency and continuity. When canon things in the past have set a set of rules upon the galaxy that a new writer then steps in and says "i'm just gonna ignore all those things written in the past for my convenience" the continuity breaks with no plausible explanation as to why past rules suddenly don't work for the duration of this one movie.

 

That was Disney's view originally, not the fans. Disney was convinced at one point that the fans were having "star wars fatigue" and thought that was why people didn't like their movies as much as they hoped. It was after this claim that fans took this statement and threw it on every table for discussion.

This is the best post on this subject that I have ever read. I agree fully!!!