This game is not dying

[TrixxieTriss]

Those numbers in the first list do take into account the re-releases.

 

I meant they should add them all together instead of being seperately listed

[MSpectre]

SWTOR = vegetable state/ on life support family member (assuming you care about this person)

EA = racking up the medical bill for as long as possible

 

[drug_cartel]

Population is down. But honestly, I could give a flying fig less in most cases. I do not require a million people lagging my server in order to have fun. Having Fleet Chat style stupidity on every planet would not be an improvement in any way. The game boasts a strong solo-player element, something that the game's head lead, Ohlen, acknowledged should have been the focus in the first place. PvP still pops. Flashpoints are still popping. GSF is... something I never do so I don't know.

 

The only problem is Ops, and that's not because of the game's total population. It's because Operations no longer have passes or anything for the FTP guys. I know that is supposed to make it so that FTP feel pushed to sub, but in reality it makes it so that many subscribers (especially outside of peak hours) struggle to find groups because 90% of the players online cannot enter an Op.

 

When there are 100+ people on fleet, but I can't get a TFB gf together, which is a pretty easy Op, and what we are missing is literally 4 DPS, that is just sad. I don't think that all 100 of those people do not have a DPS that needs the XP or components. I think most of them are FTP, so me and a few of my friends just have to miss out on our raid because of a lack of potential partners.

 

We need CC op passes back. Allow FTP people to fill in the cracks. The whole purpose why an FTP model is necessary is that, without it, there is not a playerbase large enough to support the group content. So why then block off those potential teammates from the largest group content which requires the largest numbers?

[DarthDymond]

Those lists [. . .] should also add the release of special editions and 3D to the original releases because these latest movies come in 3D as a option, so those numbers are skewed.

 

I would like to see a like vs like comparison of the old SW movies vs the new ones because it would tell a different story.

I meant they should add them all together instead of being seperately listed

It's straight arithmetic, so that's simple enough (numbers in parentheses are the original runs before adding in re-releases and special editions):

1. Star Wars: The Force Awakens -- $936,662,225
   
2. Star Wars: The Last Jedi -- $620,181,382
   
3. Rogue One: A Star Wars Story -- $532,177,324
   
4. Star Wars: The Phantom Menace -- $474,544,677 ($431,088,295)
   
5. Star Wars -- $460,998,007 ($307,263,857) ^
   
6. Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith -- $380,270,577 v
   
7. Star Wars: Attack of the Clones -- $310,676,740 ($302,191,252)
   
8. Star Wars: Return of the Jedi -- $309,306,177 ($252,583,617)
   
9. Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back -- $290,271,960 ($209,398,025) ^
   
10. Solo: A Star Wars Story -- $212,578,759 v
    
11. Star Wars: The Clone Wars -- $35,161,554
    

Edited July 28, 2018 by DarthDymond

[Kiesu]

It's straight arithmetic, so that's simple enough (numbers in parentheses are the original runs before adding in re-releases and special editions):

1. Star Wars: The Force Awakens -- $936,662,225
   
2. Star Wars: The Last Jedi -- $620,181,382
   
3. Rogue One: A Star Wars Story -- $532,177,324
   
4. Star Wars: The Phantom Menace -- $474,544,677 ($431,088,295)
   
5. Star Wars -- $460,998,007 ($307,263,857) ^
   
6. Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith -- $380,270,577 v
   
7. Star Wars: Attack of the Clones -- $310,676,740 ($302,191,252)
   
8. Star Wars: Return of the Jedi -- $309,306,177 ($252,583,617)
   
9. Star Wars: The Empire Strikes Back -- $290,271,960 ($209,398,025) ^
   
10. Solo: A Star Wars Story -- $212,578,759 v
    
11. Star Wars: The Clone Wars -- $35,161,554
    

 

If we look at film sales by inflation of the release year however, the original Star Wars was the second most highest grossing film ever made, while Force Awakens was 11th. https://www.boxofficemojo.com/alltime/adjusted.htm

[TrixxieTriss]

If we look at film sales by inflation of the release year however, the original Star Wars was the second most highest grossing film ever made, while Force Awakens was 11th. https://www.boxofficemojo.com/alltime/adjusted.htm

 

Yes, I agree, it should be like for like as I said in my other post, but I’m too lazy to do it.

I’m sure if all the seperate releases were added together and inflation was taken into account, the picture would look very different.

[DarthDymond]

Yes, I agree, it should be like for like as I said in my other post, but I’m too lazy to do it.

I’m sure if all the seperate releases were added together and inflation was taken into account, the picture would look very different.

The picture would still show the new movies making Disney billions of dollars just from the box office (to say nothing of home video and merchandising), so really not sure what is being disputed. With the exception of Solo (which, again, flopped -- releasing it less than six months after TLJ seems like a somewhat baffling decision), Disney's Star Wars movies have been critical and financial successes.

Edited July 29, 2018 by DarthDymond

[TrixxieTriss]

The picture would still show the new movies making Disney billions of dollars just from the box office (to say nothing of home video and merchandising), so really not sure what is being disputed.

 

Nobody is disputing they made money. What we are saying is they aren’t as successful as they could be. Disney just wants to churn out quantity over quality and they keep picking the wrong directors and writers to make these movies,. All Disney seems to be doing is trading on the IP and franchise to carry the movies because they know people will go see them cause it’s SW. The quality of the story just isn’t there.

 

Abrams made so many dumb mistakes in the first one he made (which he admitted too) and now they have him not only directing the last one, but they are going to let him write it

If you look critically at the Force Awakens, you can see how it’s a bad clone of New Hope. It’s not original, they start with a battle looking for plans on a desert planet, Then they have a “Death Star”, they had to go onto said Death Star to rescue the “princess”. A lead hero dies on the Death Star. A hero destroys the death star at the last possible minute.

Sure there were some differences and some “extra” story added, but that was the meat of the movie.

 

IMO, the only Disney SW movie that even felt like quality was Rogue One. Remember New Hope was about the rebellion and the struggle to defeat the empire. The whole Jedi thing was a side show to help the plot. They didn’t even refer to the Sith and Tarkin even insinuated that Darth was a Jedi.

The original SW was about struggle against all odds, it was quality story writing and it drew you in. That is exactly what rogue one was and why it’s been the best SW movie Disney has made. I would even go as far as saying it’s the third best SW movie ever, after New Hope and Empire. Rogue one had the feeling of passion and hope and desperation, all of that emotion was lacking in the force awakens (except when Han dies),

 

Honeslty, if Disney is so keen to make movies on the back of Abrams name, they should get the Rogue One writers, directors (both lots) and Lucas to over see Abrams and keep him on track with the final movie. At least then he wouldn’t be allowed to make dumb mistakes (ie, Leia not hugging Chewie after Han dies) and we might have a riverting story.

Edited July 29, 2018 by TrixxieTriss

[DarthDymond]

Nobody is disputing they made money. What we are saying is they aren’t as successful as they could be. Disney just wants to churn out quantity over quality and they keep picking the wrong directors and writers to make these movies,. All Disney seems to be doing is trading on the IP and franchise to carry the movies because they know people will go see them cause it’s SW. The quality of the story just isn’t there.

 

Abrams made so many dumb mistakes in the first one he made (which he admitted too) and now they have him not only directing the last one, but they are going to let him write it

If you look critically at the Force Awakens, you can see how it’s a bad clone of New Hope. It’s not original, they start with a battle looking for plans on a desert planet, Then they have a “Death Star”, they had to go onto said Death Star to rescue the “princess”. A lead hero dies on the Death Star. A hero destroys the death star at the last possible minute.

Sure there were some differences and some “extra” story added, but that was the meat of the movie.

 

IMO, the only Disney SW movie that even felt like quality was Rogue One. Remember New Hope was about the rebellion and the struggle to defeat the empire. The whole Jedi thing was a side show to help the plot. They didn’t even refer to the Sith and Tarkin even insinuated that Darth was a Jedi.

The original SW was about struggle against all odds, it was quality story writing and it drew you in. That is exactly what rogue one was and why it’s been the best SW movie Disney has made. I would even go as far as saying it’s the third best SW movie ever, after New Hope and Empire.

 

Honeslty, if Disney is so keen to make movies on the back of Abrams name, they should get the Rogue One writers, directors (both lots) and Lucas to over see Abrams and keep him on track with the final movie. At least then he wouldn’t be allowed to make dumb mistakes (ie, Leia not hugging Chewie after Han dies) and we might have a riverting story.

You want Lucas overseeing things? Have you seen the prequels? I don't think his oversight would be the right way to prevent "dumb mistakes." I don't hate the prequels the way some people do, but they are rife with bafflingly bad decisions from both a general film-making perspective and from a Star Wars lore perspective (not even talking about Legends / EU lore, just from consistency with the original trilogy).

 

To engage with the larger points and not focus on nitpicking one line: even adjusted for inflation, TFA was the biggest box office hit of the 21st century -- by over $100,000,000 -- so I am somewhat skeptical about the idea that they weren't as successful as they could have been. Plus (while I fully expect some people to go back to that old saw about "oh, what do critics know?") the new movies haven't just been successful financially, they were big hits with the vast majority of critics, too -- so I can't really get on-board with the "quantity over quality" argument, either.

 

There are a number of "bad movies" or "dumb movies" that I personally enjoy, I have zero problem admitting that -- but when I enjoy a movie, and that movie has 90% or more critics giving it positive reviews, and that movie is a truly massive box office hit . . . well, when speaking generally or loosely, I just think that at some point "I like this bad movie" starts looking like a less apt description than "you didn't like this good movie" (which is perfectly fine -- entertainment products, by their very nature, are totally subjective things, there's nothing wrong with enjoying or not enjoying any particular work).

Edited July 29, 2018 by DarthDymond

[AshenK]

Box office rankings of each Star Wars movie compared to each other. THIS IS JUST DOMESTIC (US) TOTALS

 

This is the box office rankings (international), in BILLIONS, of all time. Note where the two newest Star Wars movies are.

 

Yeah, Disney is crying in their milk over how much their movies are bombing :rolleyes:

 

I assure you Disney does not care how many "original" fans they might have "lost" when there are plenty of younger kids and audiences still discovering everything from a non-jaded perspective, from many new markets around the world, with four times the number of theaters screening each movie (just domestically!).

 

That's just BOX OFFICE!!!! They are raking in so much more from licensing, marketing, toys, home-video, etc. They wouldn't/couldn't make that much if they were such a horrible "failure" with "bombing" movies dragging them down.

 

Just because YOU didn't like TLJ, Disney should classify their acquisition investment as a "failure?"

 

Big LOL at the "failure" TLJ was (and before that, all the angst and cries of "failure" that TFA was)

 

Even I will admit Solo was a bit of a "failure" but just from a Star Wars perspective. Still made more than arguably the greatest Star Wars movie of all! (yeah yeah, inflation, theater totals. Again, big LOL that Disney gaf about that right now)

Really? Okay.

 

Fan reviews of TLJ have it somewhere along 0 to 2 out of 10. And note that's most of them. Some of the true die hards try to hold onto it claiming it was good however you can tell they know people like myself who know Star Wars after Episode 8 is lost are right.

 

Add in just about every time I go to Reddit one of the biggest social media sites online? I never hear one good thing about Episode 8. Really I've seen very few people defend the film. The only group I have are the kids over on r/gaming********** and they are a bunch of idiots who think we should love everything that's force fed to us.

[Kiesu]

IMO, the only Disney SW movie that even felt like quality was Rogue One. Remember New Hope was about the rebellion and the struggle to defeat the empire. The whole Jedi thing was a side show to help the plot. They didn’t even refer to the Sith and Tarkin even insinuated that Darth was a Jedi.

The original SW was about struggle against all odds, it was quality story writing and it drew you in. That is exactly what rogue one was and why it’s been the best SW movie Disney has made. I would even go as far as saying it’s the third best SW movie ever, after New Hope and Empire. Rogue one had the feeling of passion and hope and desperation, all of that emotion was lacking in the force awakens (except when Han dies),

Fan reviews of TLJ have it somewhere along 0 to 2 out of 10. And note that's most of them. Some of the true die hards try to hold onto it claiming it was good however you can tell they know people like myself who know Star Wars after Episode 8 is lost are right.

The funny thing I found out after watching both of these with a bunch of friends, some of who were big star wars fans and some who have only ever watched the movies once for funzies and weren't really long time fans was:

Every person I conversed with after who was a long time SW fan hated TLJ and loved Rogue1.

While every not-so-much-a-fan really liked TLJ and didn't enjoy Rogue1 much.

 

Some dialog I had with LJ fans was that they enjoyed the visuals and action and drama it had and seeing some old faces they recognized, while R1 lacked those and they claimed it was hard to follow and they weren't emotionally invested in the story (which makes sense if you don't care about how the bads guys were defeated as long as they got defeated).

Which I thought perfectly demonstrated what the demographic for 7 and 8 was: The new marvel-universe attuned flashy half comedy actionmovie fans who's lore is largely explained by superheromagic, and not the old fans who have read and invested in the SW lore for decades and don't just take "magic" for an answer.

Edited July 29, 2018 by Kiesu

[TalonVII]

The funny thing I found out after watching both of these with a bunch of friends, some of who were big star wars fans and some who have only ever watched the movies once for funzies and weren't really long time fans was:

Every person I conversed with after who was a long time SW fan hated TLJ and loved Rogue1.

While every not-so-much-a-fan really liked TLJ and didn't enjoy Rogue1 much.

 

Some dialog I had with LJ fans was that they enjoyed the visuals and action and drama it had and seeing some old faces they recognized, while R1 lacked those and they claimed it was had to follow and they weren't emotionally invested in the story (which makes sense if you don't care about how the bads guys were defeated as long as they got defeated).

Which I thought perfectly demonstrated what the demographic for 7 and 8 was: The new marvel-universe attuned flashy half comedy actionmovie fans who's lore is largely explained by superheromagic, and not the old fans who have read and invested in the SW lore for decades and don't just take "magic" for an answer.

 

Most of the reason why I hated the movie was because of once got past the pretty colors there was ZERO substance to it. Characters never developed, the plot made almost no sense, the subplots were pointless, motivations were questionable at best.

 

I mean the more I just look at the basic structure of the movie, forget the rest, it's just BAAADDDDDDD.

[annabethchase]

...

Which I thought perfectly demonstrated what the demographic for 7 and 8 was: The new marvel-universe attuned flashy half comedy actionmovie fans who's lore is largely explained by superheromagic, and not the old fans who have read and invested in the SW lore for decades and don't just take "magic" for an answer...

 

I think the problem is most people just wanted Luke to be what Rey was hoping for:

"You think what? I'm gonna walk out with a laser sword and face down the whole First Order?"

 

Now that would be a popcorn munching fan service film.

 

I loved TLJ and currently think it's my 2nd favorite SW movie behind A New Hope. I loved it for the exact opposite reason to what you said. It had real depth. The lore really grew in this movie. Failure as the central theme of the Jedi is absolutely true to what we've seen on screen before.

 

This wasn't a summer popcorn flick, it actually made you think. There were real stakes and the good guys don't just "easily win in 2 hours". This was no fan service Marvel movie, this was a movie that laid the foundation for a truly great conclusion to the Skywalker saga while also setting up a world post-Skywalker saga.

 

So no, it's not "true fans hate TLJ". Stop dealing in absolutes. There's many reasons to like or dislike this movie, but let's be grown ups and enjoy it for what it is.

[Andryah]

Most of the reason why I hated the movie was because of once got past the pretty colors there was ZERO substance to it. Characters never developed, the plot made almost no sense, the subplots were pointless, motivations were questionable at best.

 

I mean the more I just look at the basic structure of the movie, forget the rest, it's just BAAADDDDDDD.

 

I would make the same claims about the original trilogy. It was mind blowing cinema, effects, and serial-screenplay in action back in the late 70s and 80s... it was impressive on a lot of levels. Fast Forward to more recently... watching them again.. they are less impressive on a lot of facets... and story in particular was very spotty, even hokey.. and the acting was pretty bad with a couple of exceptions (then again.. these were not A list actors in the original trilogy either, with the exception of Alec Guiness). But this is to be expected from a semi-talented control freak producer/director who copied his entire screenplay structure from old weekly movie serials that ran in theaters in the 50s and 60s. No more, or less, than the newer movies in my view... just different. And I do think "different" offends a lot of old SW fans.

 

Holding Disney to some imaginary higher standard is kind of silly in my view.

Edited July 29, 2018 by Andryah

[Kiesu]

I think the problem is most people just wanted Luke to be what Rey was hoping for:

"You think what? I'm gonna walk out with a laser sword and face down the whole First Order?"

 

Now that would be a popcorn munching fan service film.

 

I loved TLJ and currently think it's my 2nd favorite SW movie behind A New Hope. I loved it for the exact opposite reason to what you said. It had real depth. The lore really grew in this movie. Failure as the central theme of the Jedi is absolutely true to what we've seen on screen before.

 

This wasn't a summer popcorn flick, it actually made you think. There were real stakes and the good guys don't just "easily win in 2 hours". This was no fan service Marvel movie, this was a movie that laid the foundation for a truly great conclusion to the Skywalker saga while also setting up a world post-Skywalker saga.

 

So no, it's not "true fans hate TLJ". Stop dealing in absolutes. There's many reasons to like or dislike this movie, but let's be grown ups and enjoy it for what it is.

Lore grew in this movie? You mean they broke the lore in this movie, right?

 

Why did resistance need extremely fragile bombers when they've had much more advanced bombers before this point in time? Bombers so slow the explosions trigger a chain reaction upon impact destroying the bombers themselves, are these bombers designed to get destroyed on their own bombing run? Why are we not using Y wings? To fabricate drama, no other reason.

The commander states than Po's ship is too small and too close to shoot, and they'd need tie fighters to bring it down. This is ridiculous, the dreadnought surface cannons are made to destroy these small and nimble fighters, that is their purpose, they've done fine job of downing small fighters before. How does technology that has advanced from the past get worse? Why is there no shields on the Dreadnought whatsoever, that could have prevented a single fighter being a nuisance, and stop the bombing.

 

This was all taken into consideration in Rogue1 just a year ago. They were using Y Wings to try and decimate a star destroyer, the shield make it difficult for them so they disable them with previously established tech all the way from EP5.

 

And if fighters are the only thing that can stop Po why haven't they released the fighters already? They wait until he has already destroyed several cannons. Po is then shot by the very first enemy fighter that counters him, not quite the epic pilot ep7 made him out to be...

And here starts the modifying of all characters to something they weren't.

Hux was turned into bumbling fool comedy relief instead of the rival-like counterpart to Kylo that he was initially pictures as.

Not to mention Pantasma, the tropiest of the tropiest 5 minute execution scene.

Luke is acting like no version of Luke in the history of the galaxy ever has, he was the one who was never giving up and always going head first to defend their friends, foolhardily so.

Snoke who was portrayed as the big intimidating mind manipulation using villain is never explained in the slightest and brushed aside as fast as he entered the scene.

Leia can apparently withstand the vacuum of space, a feat no jedi apart from one Master lever jedi has ever known to be able to survive, and even he had the advantage of his alien species being resistant to such conditions. This would make Leia more powerful than Luke (one of the strongest force users in the galaxy), with no training, or so little training it's not even bothered to be mentioned anywhere in the lore. And how come nobody is dumbfounded by this feat when the previous episode made a point of telling the viewer Jedi and force and fallen into myth, it's likely nobody in the resistance has ever witnessed force powers before, yet nobody bats an eyelid at this miracle.

Han Solo's stills as a pilot are apparently beat by Rey, a girl who lived their whole life on Jakku and never toughed a spacecraft or gunner before, or atlast not Millenium Falcon gunner, and on her very first shot she gets a triple kill!? 3 Tie fighters with a single shot, she is better than any pilot we have ever seen previously, with no prior knowledge on spacecrafts. (And she apparently also speaks Wookie which somehow surprises no-one when it's a decades old running joke in the universe how nobody can speak wookie) (Not to mention Rey also became as potent force user in mere days with no training as Luke did in years with the guidance and training of two Masters. Rey keeps getting power and skill handed to her rather than having to learn any of it). And then Solo dies and we never even get to see the grief an reaction of Luke, the only character who spent the most time with Solo in all of the movies combined!?

And Chewbacca literally doesn't even do anything in the entire movie except sit in a few "funny" scenes with porgs.

 

Ugh I was going to keep writing but there is so many lore and continuity points wrong in this movie it'd take days to construct a point by point collection of everything wrong with the movie, and with more detail (there is already people who have crafted essay sized writings and videos of points drawing from SW history to LJ on all the things that make no sense in the universe. I can link you to multiple if you wish to look them over with your own critical eye).

 

TLJ does so poor job of explaining any of its conflicts and most times stuff just goes the heroes way out of convenience, it's hard to take anything it does seriously, hence referring to marvel movie magic logic it's heavily lending from.

 

I guess you can call it "growing the lore" when you make is so that suddenly any single cruiser can now destroy a Mega-class Star Dreadnought simply by ramming into it in light speed, and talking a huge portion of star-destroyers along with it. That is a MAJOR plot hole, why in all 7 of the mainline episodes and R1 have we not seen this kind of maneuver before? Why is this something everyone was clearly aware of but has never used? The first order should have been terrified of that cruiser for the entire chase if it could have done something like that. Shields wouldn't have even done anything, Holdo could have sliced the Supremacy in half if she actually aimed properly. Why have nobody thought of making large dense ships with robot pilots if all it takes is one entity in a 3km Cruiser to destroy a 60km long mega Dreadnought by ramming it in light speed? It'd be far more cost efficient to bombard the enemy with droid piloted cruiser sized ships than to keep crafting bombers and fighters or even giant slow moving planet destroyer cannons when one cruiser could have done the job far more cleanly with no casualties.

Man was that some intensely bad nonsensical writing.

 

I'm not saying the movie was a complete miss, there was huge potential and some scenes I enjoyed immensely. But when the movie is 80% nonsensical and 20% great, there isn't many things to brag about. I'm glad you enjoyed it because I sure had issues piecing the jiggsawpuzzle of a plot-logic it had together in any way it would have made sense.

Edited July 30, 2018 by Kiesu

[Andryah]

Lore grew in this movie? You mean they broke the lore in this movie, right?

 

My guess is you have a different definition for the term "grew".. and it makes heavy use of personal bias/preference.

 

On a strictly objective basis... setting aside personal bias ... ANY expansion of lore (which is any new addition to existing lore in my view) within any movie IP = grew the lore for the IP or franchise.

 

Any given player may or may not like what is expanded and added with each new movie release for sure.. but to claim it did not expand the lore is silly in my view.

 

It is fine to state that you do not like or agree with any new expansion of the IPs story, technology, planets, races, settings, etc.... but to claim such expansions do not = grew the lore...... is simply personal bias absent actual objectivity.

Edited July 29, 2018 by Andryah

[Kiesu]

My guess is you have a different definition for the term "grew".. and it makes heavy use of personal bias/preference.

 

On a strictly objective basis... setting aside personal bias ... ANY expansion of lore (which is any new addition to existing lore in my view) within any movie IP = grew the lore for the IP or franchise.

 

Any given player may or may not like what is expanded and added with each new movie release for sure.. but to claim it did not expand the lore is silly in my view.

 

It is fine to state that you do not like or agree with any new expansion of the IPs story, technology, planets, races, settings, etc.... but to claim such expansions do not = grew the lore...... is simply personal bias absent actual objectivity.

Bias and logic are two very different things, please don't mix them together. This is an argument people often try to make about any kind of change on anything. When the change makes no logical sense in the boundaries of the franchise, it's a logic issue not a personal preference.

Edited July 29, 2018 by Kiesu

[TalonVII]

I would make the same claims about the original trilogy. It was mind blowing cinema, effects, and serial-screenplay in action back in the late 70s and 80s... it was impressive on a lot of levels. Fast Forward to more recently... watching them again.. they are less impressive on a lot of facets... and story in particular was very spotty, even hokey.. and the acting was pretty bad with a couple of exceptions (then again.. these were not A list actors in the original trilogy either, with the exception of Alec Guiness). But this is to be expected from a semi-talented control freak producer/director who copied his entire screenplay structure from old weekly movie serials that ran in theaters in the 50s and 60s. No more, or less, than the newer movies in my view... just different. And I do think "different" offends a lot of old SW fans.

 

Holding Disney to some imaginary higher standard is kind of silly in my view.

 

Oh I know Lucas heavily drew from those serials. And the acting wasn't the best. But atleast the story was competent ENOUGH. TLJ OTOH, a hot flaming mess.

[Andryah]

Bias and logic are two very different things, please don't mix them together. This is an argument people often try to make about any kind of change on anything. When the change makes no logical sense in the boundaries of the franchise, it's a logic issue not a personal preference.

 

Perhaps a little metaphor will help here:

 

I add a rock to my back yard. I think the rock makes sense as an addition to my yard. The rock "added" to my yard.

 

My neighbor does not like the rock. My neighbor does not understand why anyone would add a rock to their yard landscape. My neighbor thinks the rock "takes away" from yard.

 

There is no logic involved.. it is simply down to personal preference and taste. Same goes with just about anything human beings observe in their world.... real or imaginary. As I said.. I am fine with you saying... hey they added/did this in the movie and "I" do not like it and do not approve. But to pretend instead it simply does not add to the broader presentation (ie: being declaratively dismissive) is extremely biased.

 

Clearly we are not going to agree on the more recent movies, nor do we have to. But, to pick a deliberate metaphor.... we should at least be objective about the topic and admit that if they added a bantha turd smashed to the outside cockpit glass of the Falcon... that IS an addition to the Falcon.

 

My general sense is that you personally are not very tuned in to the allegoric nature of many things they have done with the newer movies in the franchise are still fixated on 40 year old allegory from another day and time in Hollywood. That said... I do think you "get it" since you actually shared your informal Q&A with various friends about the newer movies and they seem pretty well divided into two extreme camps in terms of point of view (which honestly is human nature, both now and in the past).

Edited July 29, 2018 by Andryah

[Kiesu]

I add a rock to my back yard. I think the rock makes sense as an addition to my yard. The rock "added" to my yard.

 

My neighbor does not like the rock. My neighbor does not understand why anyone would add a rock to their yard landscape. My neighbor thinks the rock "takes away" from yard.

 

There is no logic involved.. it is simply down to personal preference and taste. Same goes with just about anything human beings observe in their world.... real or imaginary. As I said.. I am fine with you saying... hey they added/did this in the movie and "I" do not like it and do not approve. But to pretend instead it simply does not add to the broader presentation (ie: being declaratively dismissive) is extremely biased.

 

Clearly we are not going to agree on the more recent movies, nor do we have to. But, to pick a deliberate metaphor.... we should at least be objective about the topic and admit that if they added a bantha turd smashed to the outside cockpit glass of the Falcon... that IS an addition to the Falcon.

Did you read the logic rant I had in that post? Because all your examples are logical, while what I ranted about was illogical.

 

What my issues were, were illogical. Here's an easy to follow example since you like those:

 

Would not adding light-sabers to Harry Potter be a choice of your personal preference not wanting light-sabers in HP, or logical choice of the HP universe not being able to create them?

 

Or, would it be logical to think that a DreadnoughtX built 40 years after DreadnoughtY would probably be more advanced than the older model, rather than worse than it? Or is that preference too?

Edited July 29, 2018 by Kiesu

[TrixxieTriss]

The funny thing I found out after watching both of these with a bunch of friends, some of who were big star wars fans and some who have only ever watched the movies once for funzies and weren't really long time fans was:

Every person I conversed with after who was a long time SW fan hated TLJ and loved Rogue1.

While every not-so-much-a-fan really liked TLJ and didn't enjoy Rogue1 much.

 

Some dialog I had with LJ fans was that they enjoyed the visuals and action and drama it had and seeing some old faces they recognized, while R1 lacked those and they claimed it was hard to follow and they weren't emotionally invested in the story (which makes sense if you don't care about how the bads guys were defeated as long as they got defeated).

Which I thought perfectly demonstrated what the demographic for 7 and 8 was: The new marvel-universe attuned flashy half comedy actionmovie fans who's lore is largely explained by superheromagic, and not the old fans who have read and invested in the SW lore for decades and don't just take "magic" for an answer.

 

That pretty much sums it up and why there are a lot of die hard fans who feel Disney is doing the franchise a disservice.

[TrixxieTriss]

Most of the reason why I hated the movie was because of once got past the pretty colors there was ZERO substance to it. Characters never developed, the plot made almost no sense, the subplots were pointless, motivations were questionable at best.

 

I mean the more I just look at the basic structure of the movie, forget the rest, it's just BAAADDDDDDD.

 

Exactly how I feel about them.

[annabethchase]

Lore grew in this movie? You mean they broke the lore in this movie, right?

 

Why did resistance need extremely fragile bombers ...

 

Full disclosure, I'm a fan of the fantasy elements of Star Wars. I do not care about the science fiction being realistic at all. That I completely hand wave away towards "anything that looks cool".

 

When I say lore, I mean the Jedi elements and the classic Heroes Journey storytelling.

[aerockyul]

I meant they should add them all together instead of being seperately listed

 

I think separating them is a good thing. The demographics would have been different, most of the fans of the originals had kids by that point. Different eyes would experience it differently. Just like what's happening with these new movies. It's valuable enough to have different data points and separate the re-releases from the originals.

[annabethchase]

...

 

The commander states than Po's ship is too small and too close to shoot, and they'd need tie fighters to bring it down. This is ridiculous, the dreadnought surface cannons are made to destroy these small and nimble fighters, that is their purpose, they've done fine job of downing small fighters before. How does technology that has advanced from the past get worse?

 

Why is there no shields on the Dreadnought whatsoever, that could have prevented a single fighter being a nuisance, and stop the bombing.

 

Not to go too deep into the military aspects because I don't study them, I do have a point here:

 

The reason it goes like this over and over is because this is a classic underdog story. The evil Empire/FO has to have small weaknesses for our plucky heroes to overcome: Death Star exhaust vent, Death Star 2 shield being somewhat under protected, Super Star Destroyer bridge being vulnerable to a kamikaze, Starkiller Base having a weakness to a handful of bombs on the inside.

 

If it wasn't this way, we'd be watching an entirely different story. I just don't think anyone would care to see the good guys have an technology and manpower advantage over the Empire/FO and then underperform in combat so that there would be a suspenseful ending.

 

It's just basic human nature to pull for the underdog to find that one weakness.