This game is not dying

[psandak]

Wouldn't downgrade bolster actually be better (like lvsync on planets)? Then yo wouldn't need to keep upping the bolster every expansion/gearcap. Drop everything to 220 and keep it there for forever. Then you'd only have to worry about PVE group finder bolster and wouldn't ever need to think about pvp bolster again.

 

You missed the point.

 

whether overbolstering to 252 or downbolstering to 220, you remove the "carrot". And IMO a carrot is needed if for nothing else than to encourage participation. Without a carrot, PvP would most likely only be "dedicated PvPers"

 

As for alternative "carrots" I like the idea, but my fear is that they would just end up on the CM eventually. Think back to the original rancor mount...it was PvP only. But the population made enough of a stink that CM rancor mounts became a thing. Granted not identical to the ranked PvP rancor mount, but if someone broke out that season 1 rancor mount to show off, no one would care.

[Andryah]

Box office rankings of each Star Wars movie compared to each other. THIS IS JUST DOMESTIC (US) TOTALS

 

This is the box office rankings (international), in BILLIONS, of all time. Note where the two newest Star Wars movies are.

 

Yeah, Disney is crying in their milk over how much their movies are bombing :rolleyes:

 

I assure you Disney does not care how many "original" fans they might have "lost" when there are plenty of younger kids and audiences still discovering everything from a non-jaded perspective, from many new markets around the world, with four times the number of theaters screening each movie (just domestically!).

 

That's just BOX OFFICE!!!! They are raking in so much more from licensing, marketing, toys, home-video, etc. They wouldn't/couldn't make that much if they were such a horrible "failure" with "bombing" movies dragging them down.

 

Just because YOU didn't like TLJ, Disney should classify their acquisition investment as a "failure?"

 

Big LOL at the "failure" TLJ was (and before that, all the angst and cries of "failure" that TFA was)

 

Even I will admit Solo was a bit of a "failure" but just from a Star Wars perspective. Still made more than arguably the greatest Star Wars movie of all! (yeah yeah, inflation, theater totals. Again, big LOL that Disney gaf about that right now)

 

Indeed.

 

Solo, largely panned by many, grossed over a billion dollars worldwide (and that does not cover ongoing revenue from downstream licensing to networks and pay channels). Any movie that can gross over a billion dollars at the box office =/= flop in a studios eyes.

 

Not every SW movie can be number 1 world wide, nor does it have to be.

Edited July 26, 2018 by Andryah

[Vember]

I haven't watched Solo, just because TLJ was so embarrassingly bad. I'll wait for it to be on Netflix.

[IanArgent]

I haven't watched Solo, just because TLJ was so embarrassingly bad. I'll wait for it to be on Netflix.

 

Solo is better written than TLJ. I thought it was worth the price of admission.

[Dweessies]

Solo is better written than TLJ. I thought it was worth the price of admission.

 

That's an extremely low standard you're using. To me, Solo was 2 movies, neither one really finished or polished but thrown together and then covered in superglue to keep the parts from flying off. They should have either stuck with the original director and script, or thrown it all out and started over.

 

Also, we should stop referring to episode 8 as TLJ. A better name for it would be "The Movie that should NOT have been made".

[DarthDymond]

Solo is better written than TLJ. I thought it was worth the price of admission.

Eh, Solo was a lot of fun, and definitely worth the price of admission, but I wouldn't say it was as good as TLJ -- but that's just because I'd say TLJ is the best Star Wars movie to come out since Empire Strikes Back.

Solo, largely panned by many, grossed over a billion dollars worldwide (and that does not cover ongoing revenue from downstream licensing to networks and pay channels). Any movie that can gross over a billion dollars at the box office =/= flop in a studios eyes.

Someone's pulling your leg if they told you Solo grossed over a billion (I believe the person you quoted might have been talking about TFA and TLJ). It made well less than half of that worldwide - coming in under 400 million. I think it was a really good movie, but commercially it probably didn't make back its production + advertising budget at the box office, so calling it a flop isn't unreasonable.

[Andryah]

Someone's pulling your leg if they told you Solo grossed over a billion (I believe the person you quoted might have been talking about TFA and TLJ). It made well less than half of that worldwide - coming in under 400 million. I think it was a really good movie, but commercially it probably didn't make back its production + advertising budget at the box office, so calling it a flop isn't unreasonable.

 

Regardless, I'm sure Disney is laughing all the way to the bank.

 

Sure.. it's not the biggest of hits with fans, but still very successful to a studio. I'm sure that Disney cranking out a new SW movie every year or so will dilute the total revenue of any given movie, and at some point they risk fatique setting in with fans.... but until that fatique does set in... the combined theater revenue, licensing revenue, and redistribution revenues make SW movies a cash cow for the studio. Some cash cows will be larger than others of course... for a range of reasons... but it does not change the fact that they have a herd of cash cows surrounding the IP.

 

A "flop" for a movie studio is a movie that does not make back it's investment, marketing, and distribution costs. Most movies, even real turkeys, DO in fact make back their costs (not through theater revenues, but total revenue from all sources) ... it's just more a question of how much profit they make. Studios have figured out how to make money even with substandard movie scripts, casting, and direction... courtesy of consumers who can and will spend money on IP related services and products.

Edited July 27, 2018 by Andryah

[VoshStargazer]

500 servers down to 5 = loss of players = dying.

 

Pretending death does not exist will not make life eternal. Or game. Dying game is dying.

 

Hey, that being said it's OK.

 

No game lives on forever, except that one game.

 

Enjoy swtor while it is here, and stop worrying about it's impending doom.

 

Finally, every game will eventually go away. just enjoy it

[Andryah]

Gear is the main thing that keeps people in Q. If you remove it or make it meaningless to those that mostly only care about pvp, they will stop q'ing. Similar to raiding - ,how many will raid if the only reward is something that can be used in solo story missions? I'm sure some would occasionally but "making progress" is a big driver for mmo players. Creating a game without gear like LOL requires a whole different game design from the ground up (and that wouldn't be any more casual or newb friendly than what we have now).

 

More out of established habit.. both on the part of studios and players. It's an established hamster wheel approach in MMOs, but it is not some sacred decree.

 

Believe it or not... some PvPers are in it for the actual PvP.

 

I will grant that random queues are largely fed by gear grinders... but the studio could change that too if they wanted to.. and provide other incentives instead and make gear irrelevant except for cosmetic appearance. This of course would cause some shock to players not accustomed to thinking for themselves and just following breadcrumbs... but most players can and would adjust if gear became "not-a-carrot". The only people that would walk away are players that absolutely rely on a gear advantage in PvP, rather than skill.

Edited July 27, 2018 by Andryah

[TUXs]

Someone's pulling your leg if they told you Solo grossed over a billion (I believe the person you quoted might have been talking about TFA and TLJ). It made well less than half of that worldwide - coming in under 400 million. I think it was a really good movie, but commercially it probably didn't make back its production + advertising budget at the box office, so calling it a flop isn't unreasonable.

Curse you and your "facts"...

 

[Vember]

I'd say TLJ is the best Star Wars movie to come out since Empire Strikes Back.

 

 

Are you being serious? Even if you ignore the giant middle finger the director gave the fans of the Star Wars universe, the plot lines in that movie were worse than some of the lamest B movies I've ever seen. The entire premise of the "space ship chase" was so absurd it was beyond laughable.

 

If the effects weren't so good, i would have thought Uwe Boll directed it. That's how awful it was.

[TUXs]

The entire premise of the "space ship chase" was so absurd it was beyond laughable.

THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

THIS part of the movie was simply preposterous. The entire movie centered around this nonsensical 'chase'...everything else that happened in the movie, good or bad, political or social justice whatever, is completely overshadowed by the absolute stupidity of this chase. Every time I think about the reasons I dislike TLJ, this is the main flipping reason. There's no getting around how God awful that premise was.

[Savej]

More out of established habit.. both on the part of studios and players. It's an established hamster wheel approach in MMOs, but it is not some sacred decree.

 

Believe it or not... some PvPers are in it for the actual PvP.

 

I will grant that random queues are largely fed by gear grinders... but the studio could change that too if they wanted to.. and provide other incentives instead and make gear irrelevant except for cosmetic appearance. This of course would cause some shock to players not accustomed to thinking for themselves and just following breadcrumbs... but most players can and would adjust if gear became "not-a-carrot". The only people that would walk away are players that absolutely rely on a gear advantage in PvP, rather than skill.

 

Look at GW2. That has more people playing than this game. That has x-server. The pvp is gearless. This game has more active pvp qs. Gear is not why I pvp but I often pvp a few extra rounds to finish dlyies/weeklies/conquests which I would completely ignore if this game's pvp became gearless. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense when you stop to think about "the wheel" but it absolutely does work. Just like ranked pvp didn't pop on most servers after season 3 UNTIL 5.0 because of the lack of rewards, and lowbie pvp qs are currently all but dead now because people can't stockpile their pvp comms anymore, the dedicated pvpers will q less and everyone else will not q at all because wait times will become prohibitive very quickly.

[lightSaberAddiCt]

Really can't take seriously ANYONE that says TLJ was as good as ESB. I mean the Star Wars Wookie Christmas TV Special was better then TLJ.

[Vember]

THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

THIS part of the movie was simply preposterous. The entire movie centered around this nonsensical 'chase'...everything else that happened in the movie, good or bad, political or social justice whatever, is completely overshadowed by the absolute stupidity of this chase. Every time I think about the reasons I dislike TLJ, this is the main flipping reason. There's no getting around how God awful that premise was.

 

Did we just become best friends?

[DarthDymond]

Are you being serious? Even if you ignore the giant middle finger the director gave the fans of the Star Wars universe, the plot lines in that movie were worse than some of the lamest B movies I've ever seen. The entire premise of the "space ship chase" was so absurd it was beyond laughable.

 

If the effects weren't so good, i would have thought Uwe Boll directed it. That's how awful it was.

Not sure what "giant middle finger" you're talking about, but beyond some minor nitpicking (e.g. "this joke went on a couple beats too long", "that line felt awkward"), I had two gripes with the movie:

1) Leia's Mary Poppins impression, which totally pulled me out of the movie for a moment (fortunately that's like a 20-second sequence out of a two-and-a-half-hour movie); and

2) The 'ticking clock' scenario they set up with the Resistance ships being chased down by the First Order (I liked the thematic setup of them being run down by a tireless enemy, but the plot justification doesn't hold up).

 

But the things the movie did that I liked or loved far, far outweighed the few bits that I didn't. Great action sequences, good humor, great visuals (e.g., Rey's Dark-Side cave experience), developing characters I actually cared about (as opposed to the wooden cutouts we got in the Prequels), using storytelling techniques we hadn't seen in a Star Wars movie before (i.e., the Rashomon-style flashbacks), the Rey-Luke plot, the Rey-Kylo plot (which actually made me care about Kylo when I had been kind of lukewarm on him in TFA), the introduction of DJ, the abruptly killing off that Emperor-wannabe Snoke two thirds of the way through the second movie in the trilogy, making Rey's parents "nobodies" instead of having her be some lost Skywalker or Kenobi scion, that very last shot of the boy looking at the stars and holding his broom like a lightsaber... yeah, I don't think TLJ was a flawless movie, but I have no problem saying I found it to be a great movie, and probably better than any other SW movie except for TESB and ANH.

 

EDIT: okay, two-and-a-half gripes, since this falls somewhere between a complaint and a nitpick: they had BB-8 coming to the rescue one time too many, IMO, and should have left the jailbreak sequence or the hijacked walker bit, not both.

Edited July 27, 2018 by DarthDymond

[vingmotor]

yea game is not duying but the ppl that are playing is. to much greed and less fun makes them sad panda.

[IanArgent]

There were, roughly speaking, 3 separate "parts" to TLJ. Ray+Luke (which was fantastic), Finn+Rose (which was OK but had no effect on the movie plot and didn't develop characters), and the Endless Boring Stern Chase. Which had several technical storytelling problems. Overall the Rey+Luke section was so good as to pull the average of the entire movie up to better than adequate, but only barely.

 

Solo was single story told in 3 chapters (more or less), which flowed well enough from one to the other.

[Joonbeams]

THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

THIS part of the movie was simply preposterous. The entire movie centered around this nonsensical 'chase'...everything else that happened in the movie, good or bad, political or social justice whatever, is completely overshadowed by the absolute stupidity of this chase. Every time I think about the reasons I dislike TLJ, this is the main flipping reason. There's no getting around how God awful that premise was.

 

More absurd than the big, bad ENTIRE planet-destroying Death Star that literally wiped Alderaan of the face the universe, but then got wiped out in a single shot by a womp rat pilot from Tatooine? Remember it took 40 years to "resolve" that plot hole - prolly the single biggest one in mainstream movie history (and mind you, no one in the Empire seemed to know of this weakness even though Rogue One shows this was uncovered). We all just merrily accepted it for years (which is fine - it's what fans of the Sci-Fi genre do).

 

Or the fact that the mighty Death Star had to move around the planet (Yavin I believe) in order to position itself for destroying the rebel base on its moon? A planet it could just as easily have wiped out instead? Now the rebels had that extra bit of time to prepare the counter.

 

How about the "45 minutes" of total Jedi "training" Luke got that allowed him to leap out of Vader's carbon freeze and then ultimately withstand and endure the toughest blasts of force lightning the emperor had without being at all fried (right before one-armed vader tossed him helplessly down a reactor shaft)?

 

These are just a few, ones that literally make or break the entire story we've come to love. There are countless others too. I've come to accept these as being required to tell a story like this one about super beings who can wield and manipulate the most powerful force - THE Force - known.

 

Really can't take seriously ANYONE that says TLJ was as good as ESB. I mean the Star Wars Wookie Christmas TV Special was better then TLJ.

 

I guess I can't be taken seriously then. I loved the original movies - always will. I suppose ESB was the high water mark, story wise, for the originals. But frankly, none of them compare to TLJ as far as story-telling goes. As with all of the movies, there are parts that were weaker than others, but I'm glad to see the movies finally move off the Skywalker storyline (although I would love to see early Vader/Clone Wars done). It all just "worked" for me - seeing it twice in theaters and now owning it. (By contrast, I've seen TFA twice total - liked it a lot, but didn't love it).

 

I don't expect to change anyone's mind. People have clearly drawn their lines in the sand here. But this notion that tried-and-true Star Wars fans universally hate this new set of films is seriously overblown (and irrelevant anyway, since new fans who will be spending cash for the next 40 years, love them...)

[TalonVII]

Is the game dying? Possibly.

Is the game growing? HELL NO. Just look at the amount of servers to tell you that.

Is the game generating money? Indeed it is. How much? Not as much as it used to.

 

The game is just chugging along at a nice brisk walk. But not at the pace of other titles. And eventually this game will die. Once a successor SW MMO comes out. And make no mistake. One eventually will.

[TrixxieTriss]

You have now

 

Well, a dedicated regs pvper. I don't like ranked because I despise arenas, but I spend most of my time online pvping.

 

Why do you like it better?

[TrixxieTriss]

I very much agree that gear should be a non-factor in PvP. Not every PvPer will agree with this of course, because they like gear providing that "frosting on the cake" in giving them a bit more power vs others, but my view is skill > gear and those that want a gear grind in PvP tend to be players who have more time to play, and hence can grind out the gear faster and then have an early advantage against other players until more players "catch up".

 

Thing is though.. this is a slippery slope effect for MMO studios. What do I mean? A soon as one content interest group of players gets a free pass on gear.... other interest groups will whine about why they have to grind gear and PvPers do not. Everyone will just want bolster to 252 and no gear grind. Note: I am not saying the expectation is rational... just that it is a natural outcome of giving one facet of the player base a free pass and others need to keep on keeping on.

 

I'm just not sure how to resolve this in an almost 7 year old game, and this really should have been done at launch and that would set the expectation that PvP is simply different compared to non PvP for SWTOR. But after so many years... people all feel equally entitled to the same methods, perks, and capabilities. That said, if it were me managing the game, I would just bite the bullet and remove gear as a power/skill factor for PvP...... but this will solve some issues, and create new ones I am sure.

 

Not everyone likes to PvP.... but by giving players more control over the PvP environment with the coming new SH, I think there is an opportunity for the studio here to breath some new life into PvP for this MMO. And as such... removing gear from the combat calculations is a good step to take. Of course players will then just double down on complaining about class balance, etc. etc. etc. so maybe it would largely be a waste of effort in the end.

 

Yep, well said, I totally agree.

 

What’s sad is those people who “need” the frosting to dominate others are usually the ones who cry foul if they have to play people on a lvl playing field.

 

Most real pvpers want skill based pvp so they can pit themselves against others and have real competition and know where they actually stand. But there are those who feel the need to overlord others by having an advantage because it buffs their delicate egos. I would even go as far as saying some need it because of possible low self worth in other parts of their life.

 

You are so right when you say if pvpers got higher Bolster, that some pve players would also want it (not the hard core raiders). But that doesn’t mean Bioware should listen to them or not give pvp higher Bolster to fix the gearing gap vs skill in pvp. Pvpers have been asking for it for years and it’s one of the reasons we ended up with planet sync and easy content. Except they don’t even need the Bolster because all lvl 70 content (besides HM/NiM) can be done with 228-230 gear. Only raiders or hard core players need the higher gear and part of their enjoyment is grinding it, which of course is how Warcraft based MMOs work.

 

Something that many people don’t know is how Bolster use to be set. When we had expertise (pvp stat), Bolster was still set higher than the max ranked gear lvl. Which meant even with 208 gear (old ranked in 4.x) and full Augments, when we went into pvp or used the Bolster terminal on the fleet, our stats would still increase higher.

Icykill use to do a lot of gear testing with Bolster for the pvp community and had a sticky in the section to help people. I’ve spoken to her about it and she said she believes Bolster was probably set 1-2 gear lvls higher than our max gear.

 

This actually explains what happened with Bolster when 5.0 was first released because it was still set higher than the max gear lvl. We actually had skill vs skill pvp for a month till Bioware realised that it negated their new and “exciting” forced gear grind (couldn’t have that). So they actually reduced Bolster down to 236 gear lvl, which was way to low and made a huge gear gap. It took months and months, plus people like Icy and Hottie doing bolster testing to show Bioware it was too low. Even when they upped it, they refused to make it higher than 242, even though people told them it was too low.

 

Since then, we’ve seen the introduction of 2 new gear lvls of Augments, that essentially push up max gear lvls way above 248. This means that 242 Bolster is now the same or worse than when it was 236 vs 248 with old Augments.

Side note: using Augments on gear below 242 is a waste because it affects Bolster and you get no real benefit from them. They are really only a benefit once you are at or past 242

 

Playing pvp against people in full 248 + 236/240 Augments is a nightmare for most people who play with bolstered gear. It’s especially harsh for new pvpers, people returning to the game or less skilled players. It then gets compounded if the high gear is worn by skilled players. Not only are those new people playing higher skilled people, they also need to contend with this gear gap.

 

I’ve calculated it now takes about 92-97 days to gear up to 248 from scratch if you only pvp and play on average 8 pvp matches a day (no Alts to help or buffs). This is only using UCs gained from matches. It can be faster if you get some CXP drops, but that’s not guaranteed. My Guardian is now teir 3 and didn’t get one dps “yellow gear” drop. All she’s gotten are tank things and she’s specced dps . If I didn’t already have a Jugg that was geared and able to share in legacy gear, I would still be playing with lower gear. Surprisingly, my Jugg isn’t even tier 3 yet.

 

With the old system, you could collect WZ Comms before max lvl and essentially buy ranked gear when you hit lvl 65, if you casually pvp’d (dailies) as you lvld up (which IMO, is where you should learn to pvp). Even if you didn’t and waited till lvl 65, you could get a full set of 204 reg gear in about a week and a full set of ranked in another 1-2 weeks. Then a week after that you’d be min-maxed using Comms at the enhancement/mod vendor (missing that option in 5.x). Bolster worked well if you wore 190 pve gear because it was nearly the same as 204 gear, just without the set bonuses. That means a newbie entering pvp for the first time, had a very low gear gap and they could gear up fast enough that it wasn’t a chore and that gear gap disappeared after a month. I would say this made pvp a lot more tolerable and fun for newer or less skilled players.

Also 204 reg gear to 208 ranked gear had very minimal stat differences. Certainly a lot less than 236-242 vs 248.

 

All Bioware need to do is put the old Bolster formula from 4.x back in place and we get skill vs skill pvp, mostly. Because Bolster still won’t make everyone 100% equal. Those with the highest gear and Augments will still have a small advantage because Bolster isn’t perfect and test in the past have shown it only goes so far, even when set above max lvl. Those higher people will also be able to completely min max their stats using the best Augments and that’s another advantage and “should” be enough for those who need to lord over people with lower gear . It also doesn’t fully negate the gear grind for those who like that stuff.

That system would be much better and closer to skilled pvp than this current one.

Edited July 28, 2018 by TrixxieTriss

[TrixxieTriss]

True, but this just suggests that studios that produce MMOs need to think broader than gear when they come up with progressions and incentives to follow them.

 

Gear as progression is kind of a lazy weak sauce approach in the industry that over the years has now programmed players to chase gear for PvP (ie: it has become the default assumption and approach, yet players also hate gear grinds generally for PvP). This can and should be changed with more imaginative carrots and progression incentives in general.... which will take some time and effort since PvP players have generally been programmed over the years to chase gear as their main progression.

 

Something that works kind of like visible badges or medals (or how about special capes or dye colors or carbonite frozen enemies.... either fixed for decorations or mobile as some sort of item that fills the pet slot) for progress would likely be a good approach for SWTOR as long as it is done in a manner that allows players to actually show them off in game as proof and bragging rights. Perhaps some pets that are unique in their display of flags or banners streaming as they move around, and/or decoration banners and other "trophy" style rewards for SHs. The reason I suggest this style of approach is because gear is only important to most PvPers if it offers some advantage AND/OR something in the form of bragging rights. If you remove the gear as an play advantage, that leaves the bragging rights and other peacock style exhibitions in game as proof of ones prowess in PvP.

 

Agreed, it is lazy.

 

Also GW2 uses a system like you described to make it not all about gear grinding, especially in pvp which boosts you to max lvl (80) and gives you max lvl gear and abilities even if you are lvl 20.

[TrixxieTriss]

Box office rankings of each Star Wars movie compared to each other. THIS IS JUST DOMESTIC (US) TOTALS

 

This is the box office rankings (international), in BILLIONS, of all time. Note where the two newest Star Wars movies are.

 

Yeah, Disney is crying in their milk over how much their movies are bombing :rolleyes:

 

I assure you Disney does not care how many "original" fans they might have "lost" when there are plenty of younger kids and audiences still discovering everything from a non-jaded perspective, from many new markets around the world, with four times the number of theaters screening each movie (just domestically!).

 

That's just BOX OFFICE!!!! They are raking in so much more from licensing, marketing, toys, home-video, etc. They wouldn't/couldn't make that much if they were such a horrible "failure" with "bombing" movies dragging them down.

 

Just because YOU didn't like TLJ, Disney should classify their acquisition investment as a "failure?"

 

Big LOL at the "failure" TLJ was (and before that, all the angst and cries of "failure" that TFA was)

 

Even I will admit Solo was a bit of a "failure" but just from a Star Wars perspective. Still made more than arguably the greatest Star Wars movie of all! (yeah yeah, inflation, theater totals. Again, big LOL that Disney gaf about that right now)

 

Those lists don’t take into account how much Disney spent on these movies vs the old ones. They should also add the release of special editions and 3D to the original releases because these latest movies come in 3D as a option, so those numbers are skewed.

 

I would like to see a like vs like comparison of the old SW movies vs the new ones because it would tell a different story.

 

What I would like to point out is that the force awakens and phantom menace had a big hit at start with because of the hype and the fact that it was the next SW trilogy. That excitment died off fast for the sequels after people realised they were going to get the experience they expected.

Edited July 28, 2018 by TrixxieTriss

[aerockyul]

Those lists don’t take into account how much Disney spent on these movies vs the old ones. They should also add the release of special editions and 3D to the original releases because these latest movies come in 3D as a option, so those numbers are skewed.

 

I would like to see a like vs like comparison of the old SW movies vs the new ones because it would tell a different story.

 

What I would like to point out is that the force awakens and phantom menace had a big hit at start with because of the hype and the fact that it was the next SW trilogy. That excitment died off fast for the sequels after people realised they were going to get the experience they expected.

 

Those numbers in the first list do take into account the re-releases.

 

There are more theaters now but a lot of them are removing seats to make room for recliners, RPX seats, the newer seats that spray stuff at you and vibrate, the staggered seating that also removes seats.

 

There are more variables than that and inflation. We can argue all day about what the numbers mean.

 

It will never change the fact that from Disney's perspective, their investment is not even remotely a failure, or even close to lagging, which is what "Disney Star Wars" haters keep projecting in the hopes their shouting in an empty forest will be heard. 3rd and 11th highest grossing films of all time. JC what ******* failures they are!!!!11!!