Expertise

[KendraP]

I highly doubt it. Expertise is literally design in two ways: one to be a cheap way and fast way for pvpers to get gear which doesn’t conflict with pve profession and two, a way for them to implement balance.

 

Thats what it used to do, yes, then they scrapped both of these in 5.0. I just caution against getting overly excited too early. I got excited for the conquest changes promising to help small guilds too... and those proved to be a total disaster for small guilds. (And if it wasn't obvious, the point of the example is to illustrate how a promise and good intention does not translate well into reality).

https://imgur.com/a/mXtBUgD

 

keith directly messaged about "two gear sets"

 

............... why would you write essays on a forum? you realise they dont change the game from 1 persons prospective, they change it for majority vote.

 

He mentioned 2 gear sets sure, and said "...it enabled us to class balance for pvp and pve." This would implicitly imply that what he liked about the 2 gear sets was not the method of getting them, but the fact it enabled them to balance pvp and pve "seperately". This same goal could be accomplished without a massive resource dump into a "new" gearing system. I just assume they'll take the lazy way out, or make things worse rather than better. Then i can be pleasantly surprised when it turns out to be beneficial and not have a repeat of the conquest debacle.

 

As to why i write more than most, maybe i have more to say than most. Why do you quote yourself in your sig? Its not changing my mind any more than I am yours. If you want to see an essay i can definitely share those.

Edited July 19, 2018 by KendraP

[Seterade]

I'm not sure how those numbers exactly add up, I think people not dying so much is because healers and dcd's got super overpowered (how exactly did expertise magically make some damage "unmitigatable"? Didn't it just increase dmg period?). Anyway, they could easily change trauma and bolster to get the same effect if they wanted to. And at best, all that 10% does is balance dps vs heals anyway, it doesn't balance dps classes and specs or heal classes and specs amongst themselves.

 

I am not sure what hot was refering to to, but the number calculation for expertise damage is based on .6% increase to base attack value, and damage reduction removing .3%, so you are left with .3% dps increase. the calulation is then applied to how regular dmg reduction and base damage values work, useing 30% as a core number, and .3% of 30% is 10% unmitigated. this was drawn up in an older topic by someone better at math than me, but the conclusion was that expertise inflicted an unmitigated 10% dmg to all sources, and 20% to non expertise users.

 

this relates to your otherpoint, hlr and dcds did not get overpowered, we all stopped doing 10% output. the flytext output for pve has been the same and worked great since the dawn of this game, and 5.0 was no different, what did change was that suddenly pvp had to play with pve stats. as my earlier point states, pve is not designed to die, therefore pve stats focus is high hls and good dcds. for two years pvp has had to live by that.

 

hls and dcds didnt get buffed, we alll got nerfed. rip 5.0 expertise.

 

Why do you quote yourself in your sig?

 

my sig is chosen to point to people who may not understand what expertise was for or what it did, and why it should return. I get tired of repeated information and making a point you feel strongly about in your sig makes it easier.

Edited July 19, 2018 by Seterade

[LordTurin]

I am not sure what hot was refering to to, but the number calculation for expertise damage is based on .6% increase to base attack value, and damage reduction removing .3%, so you are left with .3% dps increase. the calulation is then applied to how regular dmg reduction and base damage values work, useing 30% as a core number, and .3% of 30% is 10% unmitigated. this was drawn up in an older topic by someone better at math than me, but the conclusion was that expertise inflicted an unmitigated 10% dmg to all sources, and 20% to non expertise users.

 

this relates to your otherpoint, hlr and dcds did not get overpowered, we all stopped doing 10% output. the flytext output for pve has been the same and worked great since the dawn of this game, and 5.0 was no different, what did change was that suddenly pvp had to play with pve stats. as my earlier point states, pve is not designed to die, therefore pve stats focus is high hls and good dcds. for two years pvp has had to live by that.

 

hls and dcds didnt get buffed, we alll got nerfed. rip 5.0 expertise.

 

 

 

my sig is chosen to point to people who may not understand what expertise was for or what it did, and why it should return. I get tired of repeated information and making a point you feel strongly about in your sig makes it easier.

 

Yeah that math still doesn't make any sense to me, and fair enough someone else did it, and if you link it I'm happy to read it.

 

And finally figured out what you meant by unmitigated, you mean 10% extra damage before any dr, dcd's, shielding or defense (for tanks), or armor. So the effect is actually significantly lower across the board than 10% (presumably. Maybe I still don't understand what you mean when you say unmitigated).

 

But I would probably change your sig a little and just say "expertise made everyone do 10% more damage so things died faster" instead of throwing the 60% and 30% in there and not being able to explain what they mean, because right now it's just confusing and you don't seem like you can explain it. Or just put a link to the post of the person explaining it.

 

Up to you, I just scratch my head every time I see your sig, and I doubt I'm the only one.

[KendraP]

my sig is chosen to point to people who may not understand what expertise was for or what it did, and why it should return. I get tired of repeated information and making a point you feel strongly about in your sig makes it easier.

 

Oh so the same reason i chose to give detailed and logical explanations? I go around making points i feel strongly about too (expertise really isn't one of them for me), and thus i give the why i feel strongly about something.

[Seterade]

Yeah that math still doesn't make any sense to me, and fair enough someone else did it, and if you link it I'm happy to read it.

 

And finally figured out what you meant by unmitigated, you mean 10% extra damage before any dr, dcd's, shielding or defense (for tanks), or armor. So the effect is actually significantly lower across the board than 10% (presumably. Maybe I still don't understand what you mean when you say unmitigated).

 

But I would probably change your sig a little and just say "expertise made everyone do 10% more damage so things died faster" instead of throwing the 60% and 30% in there and not being able to explain what they mean, because right now it's just confusing and you don't seem like you can explain it. Or just put a link to the post of the person explaining it.

 

Up to you, I just scratch my head every time I see your sig, and I doubt I'm the only one.

 

I will see if I can find the post, maybe I can use it to edit my sig. the 60%-30% is important because if/when expertise returns that is what they will see, but when it comes to hard number your dps only inflicts 10%.

 

and yes you are correct. your dps was 10% higher to all targets with 2018 expertise. yes a dcd would lower the dmg, but comparitivly in 5.0 if you had expertise, and you hit a mara with "cloak of pain" up, you would still hit them 10% hrdr into CoP with exp than if you didnt have it, ie currently.

 

Oh so the same reason i chose to give detailed and logical explanations? I go around making points i feel strongly about too (expertise really isn't one of them for me), and thus i give the why i feel strongly about something.

 

not really my point... you are 100% able to do whatever you wish to do here on the forums, not only that but what I think of your posts is meaningless without being a moderator.

 

that being said, just be wary of writing 3 paragraph posts. just trust me on this one, Im not the only one who legit skims completely over wayofthewarriors wall texts then responds to others peoples summarys of it.

Edited July 19, 2018 by Seterade

[KendraP]

not really my point... you are 100% able to do whatever you wish to do here on the forums, not only that but what I think of your posts is meaningless without being a moderator.

 

that being said, just be wary of writing 3 paragraph posts. just trust me on this one, Im not the only one who legit skims completely over wayofthewarriors wall texts then responds to others peoples summarys of it.

 

To me a wall of text implies something that is poorly structured, uses nothing to separate points into a logical flow, and is thusly difficult to read. I for one had little trouble reading most of grim's stuff because he does usually separate it into paragraphs. There are plenty of people around here who choose to have longer posts and split them into paragraphs for easier readibility, yourself included.

 

Now can we focus on the topic rather than my posting style?

[Seterade]

if you link it I'm happy to read it.

 

(1 + 0.6) × (1 - 0.3) = 1.12

 

I founds it... it took me like 30 minutes. o0f

[LordTurin]

I founds it... it took me like 30 minutes. o0f

 

So I understand the math now, but expertise didn't give 30% dr. It gave 37.5% dr.

 

(1+.6)*(1-.375)=1.

 

There was no magical damage buff for expertise, it was just a way to separate PVP and PVE gear. The amount increased by extra damage was completely mitigated by the additional DR you get from wearing full expertise gear.

 

If both players aren't wearing full expertise, it was a different story, but if both were, there was no damage buff (Schook used the numbers you provided in the math you linked, but the numbers you provided in the first place were incorrect, which he then corrected later on in the thread by finding someone in actual full 2018 and seeing what the expertise bonuses were and using that to calculate).

[Seterade]

So I understand the math now, but expertise didn't give 30% dr. It gave 37.5% dr.

 

(1+.6)*(1-.375)=1.

 

There was no magical damage buff for expertise, it was just a way to separate PVP and PVE gear. The amount increased by extra damage was completely mitigated by the additional DR you get from wearing full expertise gear.

 

If both players aren't wearing full expertise, it was a different story, but if both were, there was no damage buff (Schook used the numbers you provided in the math you linked, but the numbers you provided in the first place were incorrect, which he then corrected later on in the thread by finding someone in actual full 2018 and seeing what the expertise bonuses were and using that to calculate).

 

interesting. I've always said I'm not the best at math

 

but heres a math question for you... how does .075 completely cancel out .425, how does that work?

 

and it cant be ignored that this expansion has had the absolute worst "parsing" exp in wzs. you might be able to give that to the new dcds.... I just am trying in my head to understand how 60% dps gets canceld out by 37.5% dr

Edited July 19, 2018 by Seterade

[LordTurin]

interesting. I've always said I'm not the best at math

 

No worries. Now providing some kind of extra damage buff with expertise may be a way to make PVP a little more balanced and nerf healing, and isn't a terrible idea necessarily to have people die faster, it's just not something that's been done in the past.

 

Honestly that's been my concern with a lot of the comments here. I just keep hearing all these magical things about how expertise gear solved every problem, but as far as what I have seen, literally all it did was create a distinction between PVP and PVE gear. Yes, in 4.0 it was easy to gear up full PVP gear, but 4.0 it was easy to gear for both PVP and PVE. I also keep hearing about how expertise can be used to balance classes, but I truly don't recall expertise ever being used in that fashion. I would love it if it did, and would fully support that, but absent that, I don't see any purpose in splitting up PVP and PVE gear (actually I don't anyway, make expertise a stat that is outside of PVP, and then give buffs/nerfs to it based on spec). Speed up gearing for both PVP and PVE (yes, it's relatively easy once you have a couple things at 248, but before that it is a huge PITA), but you don't need to split gearing for that.

[Seterade]

 

this might tell what hottie ment by it was used to "balance" stats.

 

if you look at the third post down, the commenter remarks the expertise buffed healer output differently. this likely is what happened to 5.0 pvp

[LordTurin]

 

this might tell what hottie ment by it was used to "balance" stats.

 

if you look at the third post down, the commenter remarks the expertise buffed healer output differently. this likely is what happened to 5.0 pvp

 

There is already a buff in PVP called Trauma that does that too. They wouldn't need to bring expertise back to change how healing works in PVP, just nudge the amount that trauma debuff lowers healing by. And yes, if "balance" is meant strictly by dps vs healing, that is one thing, but typically balance is referencing every class and spec vs each other, and that expertise has never done (and like I said, the trauma debuff takes care of the healing stuff anyway).

[Seterade]

trauma has existed since 3.0 (maybe before that, I started playing in 3.0) expertise existed in 3.0 as well. you could make a viable arguement that trauma, pvp debuff and expertise hl nerf worked in tandom together to provide a fun and fair pvp exp.

 

you also could make a counter arguement that both trauma and the pvp debuff are in 5.0, the complaint that hlrs and dcds being over tuned is a very real complaint these days.

 

could you "buff" trauma to mimic expertise debuff? sure, but always remember when suggesting changes that this game is pve first and foremost, and you cant nerf something that breaks pve just so pvp survives. you have to nerf and buff where the money is, then compensate accordingly

Edited July 19, 2018 by Seterade

[kissingaiur]

dont forget a while back also, pvp and pve gear had different set bonuses as well. they are ultimately very different gear sets.

[LordTurin]

trauma has existed since 3.0 (maybe before that, I started playing in 3.0) expertise existed in 3.0 as well. you could make a viable arguement that trauma, pvp debuff and expertise hl nerf worked in tandom together to provide a fun and fair pvp exp.

 

you also could make a counter arguement that both trauma and the pvp debuff are in 5.0, the complaint that hlrs and dcds being over tuned is a very real complaint these days.

 

could you "buff" trauma to mimic expertise debuff? sure, but always remember when suggesting changes that this game is pve first and foremost, and you cant nerf something that breaks pve just so pvp survives. you have to nerf and buff where the money is, then compensate accordingly

 

Trauma is a PVP only thing, so buffing that wouldn't impact PVE in the slightest.

 

dont forget a while back also, pvp and pve gear had different set bonuses as well. they are ultimately very different gear sets.

 

That hasn't been the case since at least 3.0 (even in 3.0 I think most of the bonuses were the same). They have not been really different gear sets since at least 4.0, the only difference in 4.0 was expertise, which as I have stated many times, and no one has informed me differently, was literally just a garbage stat to make there be 2 gear grinds.

 

And yes, in 4.0, both the gear grinds were relatively easy to do (you could be fully geared for both PVP and PVE in under a week with a little hustle), but I have yet to hear a good explanation as to why the gear should be separate aside from "they can then make the PVP gear grind faster" (and yes, I have heard people talking about expertise being used to balance PVP without touching PVE, but as far as I'm aware they have not used expertise like that in the past, and if they had I'd really appreciate an explanation so I'll stop saying that . I'd like them to do that, but that is more easily accomplished by making it a stat outside of gearing then inside). I'd rather they make the gear grind faster for both.

[Seterade]

Trauma is a PVP only thing, so buffing that wouldn't impact PVE in the slightest.

 

I know that certain npcs has hps. heals/medpack... I am not certain whether trauma debuffs this.. I figured it did because the ability is in the tank rotation, hps from npcs I believe are in pve ops, and I dont know of too many abilitys whos sole existence in this game is only to enhance pvp exp.

 

that being said, whether it would alter pve by buffing it? maybe your right, maybe trauma doesnt work unless pvp debuff is affecting your target, regardless, in 3.0 and 4.0 expertise, trauma and pvp debuff existed alongside one another, 3.0 was acclaimed by many pvpers to be the closest thing to balance this game ever had.

Edited July 19, 2018 by Seterade

[Severith]

Just to keep a few things in perspective:

 

The troll who started this thread stopped posting about a week ago.

 

Fixing something complicated by making it more complicated is almost always the wrong direction to go.

 

Pretty simple stuff, really.

[Ld-Siris]

And yes, in 4.0, both the gear grinds were relatively easy to do (you could be fully geared for both PVP and PVE in under a week with a little hustle), but I have yet to hear a good explanation as to why the gear should be separate aside from "they can then make the PVP gear grind faster" (and yes, I have heard people talking about expertise being used to balance PVP without touching PVE, but as far as I'm aware they have not used expertise like that in the past, and if they had I'd really appreciate an explanation so I'll stop saying that . I'd like them to do that, but that is more easily accomplished by making it a stat outside of gearing then inside). I'd rather they make the gear grind faster for both.

 

I mean if you regularly do both PvP and PvE right now its still better to have 2 gear sets because it costs 50k To pull out 1 enh or augment. And since you need way more acc in pve it can get pretty damn expensive quick. Even with just 1Enh and stim change. The gearing stats are different for PvP and PvE.

 

Now if they did bring back expertise, with mats tied to ranked it would be even worse. Youd have mat farmers that would be even worse off. Now imagine playing solos and getting them on your team.

Edited July 19, 2018 by Ld-Siris

[LordTurin]

I mean if you regularly do both PvP and PvE right now its still better to have 2 gear sets because it costs 50k To pull out 1 enh or augment. And since you need way more acc in pve it can get pretty damn expensive quick. Even with just 1Enh and stim change. The gearing stats are different for PvP and PvE.

 

Now if they did bring back expertise, with mats tied to ranked it would be even worse. Youd have mat farmers that would be even worse off. Now imagine playing solos and getting them on your team.

 

Eh, that's only if you are that fussed about having 107% acc. Instead of 105%. If not, just swap between mastery and accuracy stims (and even that's only for ranked, for regs I usually dont bother).

[Seterade]

I mean if you regularly do both PvP and PvE right now its still better to have 2 gear sets because it costs 50k To pull out 1 enh or augment. And since you need way more acc in pve it can get pretty damn expensive quick. Even with just 1Enh and stim change. The gearing stats are different for PvP and PvE.

 

Now if they did bring back expertise, with mats tied to ranked it would be even worse. Youd have mat farmers that would be even worse off. Now imagine playing solos and getting them on your team.

 

expertise put a gear limit on ranked. you hadto hv at least 2018 expertise to que. it didnt stop bads from queueing but it stopped "daily" farmers

Edited July 19, 2018 by Seterade

[Grxsr]

expertise put a gear limit on ranked. you hadto hv at least 2018 expertise to que. it didnt stop bads from queueing but it stopped "daily" farmers

 

 

Yea.. gonna listen to some of the previous names you mention:rolleyes:.. they're the sole reason of our current state, and the exact reason why upcoming changes need to be implemented.. Not all of them, and not gonna mention any name in particular..

[Seterade]

I wouldnt listen to me if I was you. bounce ideas? sure, discuss, sure, but since all of my game ideas are based on practical application, rather than math or statistics (what videogames are built on regardless of how we "feel") I would always second check what I offer. some people are good for imagining possible scenarios and concepts (think tank) others are good for testing them and proving them beyond a doubt Edited July 19, 2018 by Seterade