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Expertise


MRSHRUIKAN

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When are u guys, selfcalled "devs" gonna bring back expertise?

 

Ever since u, selfcalled "devs" took it out wz's got really really bad, unballenced, all the bads going for pvp.

 

Before u, selfcalled "devs" took expertise out from PvP, ppl actually cared about playing PvP and they were forced to earn the comms to buy the gear and so the ones that are dedicated to PvP felt like they were really playing for something, and the oned that didn't carre about PvP at all got what they deserved. But now we are forced to play with randoms that don't care about PvP and ruin our game just because they want some comp, or whatever.

 

PvP became a joke and its all ur fault.

 

If u, selfcalled "devs" don't like to play the game, then, listen to the community and let us play, unnistead acting like some politians that just think about themselfs.

 

Thank you.

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With expertise around, noobs who went into PVP got crashed even worse than they are now. The only practical differnce since PVP lost expertise is that people who play both PVE and PVP don't have to completely gear twice just not to completely suck (accuracy is not that good in PVP, but at least you don't take 150% damage and don't deal only 65%...). There is no connetion at all between the removal of expertise and the decline in player skill or dedication to victory. It is just the mentality of number farming that took root that is responsible for the situation.
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With expertise around, noobs who went into PVP got crashed even worse than they are now. The only practical differnce since PVP lost expertise is that people who play both PVE and PVP don't have to completely gear twice just not to completely suck (accuracy is not that good in PVP, but at least you don't take 150% damage and don't deal only 65%...). There is no connetion at all between the removal of expertise and the decline in player skill or dedication to victory. It is just the mentality of number farming that took root that is responsible for the situation.

 

I couldn't read his post and take it seriously. He blames expertise for less skill, imbalanced classes, and basically everything else that is bad in PVP - all because expertise was removed.

 

If anything he ought to thank them for considering bringing back expertise as that seems to be the most recent rumor swirling around the gossip table.

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No one is going to read this thread and consider it anything but a troll thread.

 

Insults only produce apathy or anger.

 

Well.. U read it, r?

 

And nobody asked u to reply to it, if u don't like just ignore and pass on.

 

Don't act like a troll. ;)

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With expertise around, noobs who went into PVP got crashed even worse than they are now. The only practical differnce since PVP lost expertise is that people who play both PVE and PVP don't have to completely gear twice just not to completely suck (accuracy is not that good in PVP, but at least you don't take 150% damage and don't deal only 65%...). There is no connetion at all between the removal of expertise and the decline in player skill or dedication to victory. It is just the mentality of number farming that took root that is responsible for the situation.

 

Do u really think that what u said is real, or u just wanna believe that?

 

Just go and do some wz's and see with ur own eyes.

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Do u really think that what u said is real, or u just wanna believe that?

 

Just go and do some wz's and see with ur own eyes.

 

I see bads, noobs, kill farmers, FOTM rerollers, trolls, premades, a few hackers and several decent players. Just as I have seen since forever in varying quantities of each. The one and only EXP-related difference is that the difference undergear and full gear is less significant. Lhancelot listed the real reasons for why is the situation now worse than it was. Saying it is due to the removal of EXP is simply illogical. Many things changed since it was gone. The difference between now and then is not enough proof that EXP is to blame.

 

 

Else, it would be logical of me to say that it is ALL because sins lost phasewalk :rolleyes:

Edited by Rafiknoll
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When are u guys, selfcalled "devs" gonna bring back expertise?

 

Ever since u, selfcalled "devs" took it out wz's got really really bad, unballenced, all the bads going for pvp.

 

Before u, selfcalled "devs" took expertise out from PvP, ppl actually cared about playing PvP and they were forced to earn the comms to buy the gear and so the ones that are dedicated to PvP felt like they were really playing for something, and the oned that didn't carre about PvP at all got what they deserved. But now we are forced to play with randoms that don't care about PvP and ruin our game just because they want some comp, or whatever.

 

PvP became a joke and its all ur fault.

 

If u, selfcalled "devs" don't like to play the game, then, listen to the community and let us play, unnistead acting like some politians that just think about themselfs.

 

Thank you.

 

Removal of expertise was one the best decisions in recent years..... What exactly was the point of it ? Other than making people grind 2 sets of gear, it was a totally useless stat. We need to make PVP more accessible to people. More people means more pops and that's what PVP-ers want.

 

But of course you and many others have a very narrow view of PVP in this game and think that it should about the cool kids who are " skilled".

 

I was around when expertise was active and I can assure you that PVP was the same as it is now. Noobs getting ganked, and 4 man premades with healers and skanks were walking over random teams.

 

Also... you are NOT forced to play with randoms any more than you were when expertise was around and if it's such a big problem for you grab some friends and make a group. There... you now have you dream team for pvp and you can que to maul the " randoms".

 

It is also possible that you just aren't good enough to make a difference for your team. This can create frustration as you aren't capable of doing the job and expect others to do it for you and then blame them for being bad...

Edited by DavidAtkinson
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Removal of expertise was one the best decisions in recent years..... What exactly was the point of it ? Other than making people grind 2 sets of gear, it was a totally useless stat. We need to make PVP more accessible to people. More people means more pops and that's what PVP-ers want.

 

But of course you and many others have a very narrow view of PVP in this game and think that it should about the cool kids who are " skilled".

 

I was around when expertise was active and I can assure you that PVP was the same as it is now. Noobs getting ganked, and 4 man premades with healers and skanks were walking over random teams.

 

Also... you are NOT forced to play with randoms any more than you were when expertise was around and if it's such a big problem for you grab some friends and make a group. There... you now have you dream team for pvp and you can que to maul the " randoms".

 

It is also possible that you just aren't good enough to make a difference for your team. This can create frustration as you aren't capable of doing the job and expect others to do it for you and then blame them for being bad...

 

I find it very hard to believe any player cannot honestly understand why expertise was good for pvpers.

 

1-2 weeks to min/max (if that)

Mod/enhancement vendor

2 tier sets

Ability to quickly gear out all your alts

More straight forward system that makes sense

The ability to balance pvp and pve separately

 

Without expertise, it will take you months to gear ONE TOON in a game mode that has nothing to do with gear. Expertise makes it so we aren’t forced into the brutal pve profession. This gearing system even after being nerfed to be easier is still atrocious. The only benefit is you need less inventory space.

Edited by kissingaiur
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I find it very hard to believe any player cannot honestly understand why expertise was good for pvpers.

 

1-2 weeks to min/max (if that)

Mod/enhancement vendor

2 tier sets

Ability to quickly gear out all your alts

More straight forward system that makes sense

The ability to balance pvp and pve separately

 

Without expertise, it will take you months to gear ONE TOON in a game mode that has nothing to do with gear. Expertise makes it so we aren’t forced into the brutal pve profession. This gearing system even after being nerfed to be easier is still atrocious. The only benefit is you need less inventory space.

 

You don't need expertise to gear your alts faster..

 

The devs could arrange that with a few changes but 5.0 was about lack of content.. so they had to keep us busy grinding gear instead.

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You don't need expertise to gear your alts faster..

 

The devs could arrange that with a few changes but 5.0 was about lack of content.. so they had to keep us busy grinding gear instead.

 

you do realise that pve gearing has always been a grind...... right?

 

 

1.0-2.0-3.0-4.0 and 5.0. there is no blame about "lack of content" pve is a grind, always has been, and likely always will be... because having an endless purpose in MMORPGs is the $$$ maker. its money, the audience. want "instant gear"? I like tomb raider too. or csgo. really any game that is not RPG

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I explained this once before in satele shan fleet chat, but lets look at some good ole gear wins in pvp stats, "Nuh uh, skill > than gear nub, git gud"

 

 

first off, a good player will destroy you regardless of gear if you are lacking in talent. lets get that right out of the way.

 

 

now lets look at some delicious stats!

 

first off, its been pretty common knowledge for awhile now the the difference between a 230 and a 248 is 10% (no augs, because lets not complicate this)

 

so, you are hitting 10% harder, and reducing 10% more damage. you also have 30k more hp

 

lets make some sexy examples :)

 

John: 100k hp, 10% damage reduction, 10% damage 230 gear. no gear damage, 10k, apply gear, max hit 15k, lowest hit 11k. (30% will be our crit calculation :) )

 

Jane: 130k hp, 20% damage reduction, 20% damage 248 gear. no gear damage, 10k, apply gear, max hit 16k, lowest hit 12k

 

ikr? not a big difference.. but we forgot to add gear multipliers. if jane hits john for 16k, (20% damage is already added) john reduces the damage by 10%. which is 1.5. jane now does 14.5k damage per hit. johnny hits jane, apply 20% reduction, euals 3k. john now hits jane for 15k-3k 12k.

 

John: 12k max, 8k min

 

Jane: 14.5k max, (lets round to 4.7) 9.5k min

 

differences got a little bigger huh?

 

now we know how the dps and dr work on their parse, lets hit each other turn for turn till 130k or 100k is dead

 

(max hits only to simplify) john kills jane in 11 hit of 12k, jane kills john in 7 hits of 14.5k

 

jane killed john with 4 less hits. 12k x 4 equals 36k. Jane wins with 36k hp remaining...

 

your "gear doesnt matter" theory just got rektd 36k-0

Edited by Seterade
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You don't need expertise to gear your alts faster..

 

The devs could arrange that with a few changes but 5.0 was about lack of content.. so they had to keep us busy grinding gear instead.

 

You do need expertise to fix the long pvp grind. Because you cannot allow gearing in a week for pvpers because that would mean it would be a week for pvers. You cannot have one aspect of the game better for gear then another. This is because it would force players to play content they don’t sign up to do.

 

I wouldn’t to force pvpers to pve for gear just cuz it’s faster same goes for forcing pvers to pvp for gear. By putting expertise on pvp gear you can make it bis for only pvp and raise gear score higher making pve gear only bis for pve. This is how it worked on 4.0 and it made it so pvpers had the quickest gearing in the game so then we can purely focus on gameplay not gear progression.

 

“Lack of content”? What content are you even talking about. Every pvp match is pvp content. The only real changes pvpers care about is class balance. We do not need new raids to make us happy that’s pvers. Pvpers also do not months of grinding for gear; that is pve progression. Pvp progression is your skill. Attempting to forcing pve and pvp to function was the same way was the worst mistake the devs did. Literally everyone in the play testing said it was a terrible idea. I’m glad Keith is actually focusing pvp in the right direction finally.oo

Edited by kissingaiur
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I find it very hard to believe any player cannot honestly understand why expertise was good for pvpers.

 

1-2 weeks to min/max (if that)

Mod/enhancement vendor

2 tier sets

Ability to quickly gear out all your alts

More straight forward system that makes sense

The ability to balance pvp and pve separately

 

Without expertise, it will take you months to gear ONE TOON in a game mode that has nothing to do with gear. Expertise makes it so we aren’t forced into the brutal pve profession. This gearing system even after being nerfed to be easier is still atrocious. The only benefit is you need less inventory space.

 

I am all for making it easier to gear alts, I hate the new gearing system even in its present iteration it's highly uncustomizable for alts and makes it a huge pita gearing alts when all you do is PVP.

 

In a nutshell it sucks gearing as a PVPer!

 

That being said, I can't equate expertise with easier gear grind. They can make the gear grind here less grindy and better for PVPers without ever bringing expertise back.

 

All they got to do is make changes like allow all loot from crates to be legacy bound. Bring back the vendors as you mentioned and let us spend command tokens on mods, enhancements, implants, ears, etc. so that there's more ways to gear than just doing PVE crap or PVPing and hoping the exact piece drops for the class spec you need.

 

The UCs work fine but it's too grindy still, unless you do PVE I am told but if you use PVP as your primary method to gain CXP and gear up it's ridiculously slow and tedious gearing alts.

 

 

 

TL;DR

 

I don't see expertise as being the reason gearing was better in the past, it just happened to be one facet of a much more sensible gearing system that allowed a ton of customization.

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I see a lot of equivalency in bringing back expertise and bringing back the pre 5.0 gearing method. It is entirely plausible to bring back expertise without bringing back the old gearing method.

 

I.e. they could make your expertise scale with your item level or something, where getting 248 gear (or whatever the 6.0 cap is) will get you 2018 (or whatever the new cap would be) expertise.

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With expertise around, noobs who went into PVP got crashed even worse than they are now. The only practical differnce since PVP lost expertise is that people who play both PVE and PVP don't have to completely gear twice just not to completely suck (accuracy is not that good in PVP, but at least you don't take 150% damage and don't deal only 65%...). There is no connetion at all between the removal of expertise and the decline in player skill or dedication to victory. It is just the mentality of number farming that took root that is responsible for the situation.

 

Noobs that had inferior gear used to get 1936 expertise as a bonus inside a wz assuming no expertise crystals.Hardly the reason they were getting crushed.

Don't use the two gear grind excuse as your argument.There was no gear grind for PvP.At all.

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Without expertise, it will take you months to gear ONE TOON in a game mode that has nothing to do with gear. Expertise makes it so we aren’t forced into the brutal pve profession. This gearing system even after being nerfed to be easier is still atrocious. The only benefit is you need less inventory space.

 

Once you hit command rank 300, it would take 1-2 days of hard pvp to get a set of BLUE T4, which is better than anything in T3 and almost as good as the gold T4.

 

People have this "WOW" mentality that blue = crap, when in fact the blue T4 pieces are actually pretty powerful. But I guess that doesn't serve the narrative that gearing in SWTOR is sooooo hard. Next time you open a T4 crate, look at the blue and compare it to a unauged gold. There isn't a whole lot of difference.

 

Expertise made things awkward for the beginners and pve folks who wanted to dip their toes in pve. It actually made the PVP community really hostile towards new players. It would be even worse now with the command system, you'd have people coming in just to farm command rank and crates, and they'd refuse to buy and aug out a pvp set. Even when SWTOR gave out free beginner expertise sets we couldn't get people to actually equip them. No thanks.

 

Good game design for an mmo would minimize differences in pvp and pve, not create more of them.

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I don't see expertise as being the reason gearing was better in the past, it just happened to be one facet of a much more sensible gearing system that allowed a ton of customization.

 

the reason expertise existed was to deviate what "wz comms" and what pve "comms" could purchase. pve comms purchased regular gear at a slow progression rate, very typical of all rpg genre. but pvp is not about proggression, it is about "action/rpg" typical of "action" genre games, gearing is usually very quick. "action/rpg" a variant of rpg, is a quick gear with customizable stats (to a point)

 

expertise allowed an armor concept transition from progression to action adventure. expertise granted 60% damage bonus and 30% dr bonus to your gear... while "pvp" debuff was active. which ment, you really couldnt use it for pve. (due to the bonus not working).

 

in conclusion, pve is a progression game mode, pvp is an action game mode. pve takes longer but provides universal stat bonus, pvp was fast but only useful in it's enviroment.

 

Once you hit command rank 300, it would take 1-2 days of hard pvp to get a set of BLUE T4, which is better than anything in T3 and almost as good as the gold T4.

 

People have this "WOW" mentality that blue = crap, when in fact the blue T4 pieces are actually pretty powerful. But I guess that doesn't serve the narrative that gearing in SWTOR is sooooo hard. Next time you open a T4 crate, look at the blue and compare it to a unauged gold. There isn't a whole lot of difference.

 

Expertise made things awkward for the beginners and pve folks who wanted to dip their toes in pve. It actually made the PVP community really hostile towards new players. It would be even worse now with the command system, you'd have people coming in just to farm command rank and crates, and they'd refuse to buy and aug out a pvp set. Even when SWTOR gave out free beginner expertise sets we couldn't get people to actually equip them. No thanks.

 

Good game design for an mmo would minimize differences in pvp and pve, not create more of them.

 

this is "in theory correct, however blue gear will only work in non bolster enviroments. blue and green gear bolster different in wzs/ops. think of it as an antif2p. artifact authorization is a p2p concept only, so it makes sense that as f2p/perfered you get a nerf in group enviroments. if you don't believe me, try queueing in blue gear, check your hp value, then put on lower rated purple/gold gear and watch your hp gain 10k

Edited by Seterade
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You do need expertise to fix the long pvp grind. Because you cannot allow gearing in a week for pvpers because that would mean it would be a week for pvers. You cannot have one aspect of the game better for gear then another. This is because it would force players to play content they don’t sign up to do.

Preach it, sister!

 

I feel like we've had this argument ad naseum (yup, I'm getting nauseous talking about it). The debate usually goes like this...

 

Person: We can't bring back expertise! It was a barrier for entry to new players!

Me: We had bolster then, just like we do now. Oh and the expertise gear was super quick and easy to acquire. No barrier here, just lazy players. So we have to make it a complete and utter grind for the people who pvp the most in order to remove a barrier that exists only in the minds of players who seldom do? :confused:

 

Person: We can't bring back expertise because I don't want to have two gear sets!!

Me: Tanks still absolutely need two gear sets. Oh, and now it takes much longer to get both. Even dps and healers may have slightly different optimized stats, necessitating at least moving a few augs or enhancements. Oh, and now we cannot get individual 248 enhancements without grinding an entirely new piece. Yay. Yeah, I totally am down for paying the 48k credits per 248 enh every time I want to change activities...:rolleyes:

 

Person: But we would still have a grind if they brought back experise!

Me: I refer you to Hottie's answer above...

 

Person: But open world! It's not fair to get ganked just because I don't have expertise!

Me: We don't even have open world anymore. If people want to avoid pvp, all they have to do is stay in the pve instance now. If people want less competition for resources, step into the pvp instance and accept the risk for potential increased reward.

 

EDIT: Oh and you want to know something else that really ticks me off? I just recently learned that I was wasting points in alacrity, but guess what? That's how stats come with the cookie cutter 248 pieces. I cannot control what enhancements I get. I have one 248 alacrity implant (because that's what galactic command randomly gave me), but I need either another crit implant or another crit enhancement. How do I get such a thing? Well, I have to purchase a 236 piece, then 242, then 248. Very grindy. I'm not exactly motivated...

Edited by teclado
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Again the equivalency between expertise and the old gearing method could very easily be false. They could, say, tie expertise into item level or tie pvp gear into the cxp grind.

 

The purpose of bringing back expertise is not to make gearing easier for us; rather it's to throw a variable that can be manipulated for pvp without affecting pve.

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I cannot control what enhancements I get. I have one 248 alacrity implant (because that's what galactic command randomly gave me), but I need either another crit implant or another crit enhancement. How do I get such a thing? Well, I have to purchase a 236 piece, then 242, then 248. Very grindy. I'm not exactly motivated...

 

Yeah the lack of customization is super annoying. Sure, you can get what you need, but the hoops to jump through to get it can be just ridiculous.

 

They seem to revel in doing things elaborately so it wouldn't surprise me if they are working on a new gearing system that will include something similar to expertise.

 

I personally just want a more customizing system that isn't unnecessarily complicated. If expertise is attached great, if not fine just make a more intuitive/cohesive gearing system with less grind and more customization available.

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this is "in theory correct, however blue gear will only work in non bolster enviroments. blue and green gear bolster different in wzs/ops. think of it as an antif2p. artifact authorization is a p2p concept only, so it makes sense that as f2p/perfered you get a nerf in group enviroments. if you don't believe me, try queueing in blue gear, check your hp value, then put on lower rated purple/gold gear and watch your hp gain 10k

 

I have an exact copy of my main, class, spec, keybinds, appearance, etc. The only difference is the name and he's in auged blues instead of golds. He's also on pub side rather than imp side. I do pvp dailies on him, and know exactly what the difference is. It's almost nothing. I can still solo opponents, I still get mvp votes. There are very few times where I'd think "I could of won that with slightly better gear." I used to use this toon as "training", since in past expansions there were huge differences between end game gear and blues.

 

Blue T4 gear is competitive in regs, and more than enough to do almost any raid.

 

There is plenty of times in SWTOR history that bolster has boosted inferior gear far and above what you'd think BIS is. If you're going to invoke bolster as an argument lets see hard data about all the stats involved.

 

Here is what is actually involved in gearing in SWTOR:

 

PVP only, after command rank 300

 

T4 Blues 1-2 days of hard pvp (if even that), 3-4 days casual

T4 Purples/ Instant if you have the money, don't even need command rank.

T4 Purples/ No money, 2-3 weeks

T4 Gold 1-2 months depending on luck

 

That's not taking any shortcuts, like doing raids for T2 or T3 drops and then upgrading them.

 

Anyone who says someone needs to grind for months just to start pvping is lying through their teeth. It comes from an elitist mindset of having to have legendary gear before they're brave enough to que.

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