Quesh Difficulty Needs Examined

[Gantrithort]

most class have certain aspect of the instance to help them beat the elite packs such as consular who had a computer at start givign them a 50% damage reduction shield.

[Qilaar]

I think different people have difficulty at different stages, I found Quesh easy but had trouble on Voss, not helped by the fact my only geared companion was taken rather abruptly, though I guess I should have been gearing up another, so partially my fault.

 

I'm always happy to help guild members, I am sure those in your guild would be happy to help you out too if you asked, and if you're not in one, could be a good idea.

[Meldwyn]

No fun to be stuck without being able to do your story line at the proper level, however, I will say, I went there one level below the min and was able to knock everything out without too much difficulty before moving to Hoth.

 

JKG lvl 37 on Hoth.

 

caveat: at one point, not class story, I was questing in an area where three other players were grouped and doing the same quests, so I got a blind invite, which I accepted immediately, and we did the rest of the quests (quite a few) as a group of 4. Very fun, actually!

[Kunari]

So, I have done all of the content on every planet up to Quesh and I'm now level 40. The difficulty on this planet is far too strong and needs to be looked at. I am nearly dying in every 3-mob fight and elites are nearly impossible and I'm 4 levels above them!

 

Please look into it.

 

Really?! What class? Spec? Have you geared up you & your companion(s)? Quesh was fine (almost too easy) for me and I was lvl40 Trooper when I started that planet. The only problem I had was a level 41 SI Imp kept bothering us.

[Meldwyn]

I think different people have difficulty at different stages, I found Quesh easy but had trouble on Voss, not helped by the fact my only geared companion was taken rather abruptly, though I guess I should have been gearing up another, so partially my fault.

 

I'm always happy to help guild members, I am sure those in your guild would be happy to help you out too if you asked, and if you're not in one, could be a good idea.

 

What does that mean?

[JonnySiniwali]

I thought Quesh was rather mediocre in difficulty level. Some of hoth was slightly harder. Not too bad, but I was not used to seeing camps for imperial players and had a few "oh, what is that ... zap zap zap I am dead!" type encounters. Other than that, not too bad.

 

Belsalvis feels significantly harder. Way more silver/gold mobs. Bigger packs. More enemy player camps to avoid. More champion quest mobs. Lots of strong and up patrols. Some seemingly endless bonus quest chains that take me way out in the middle of nowhereville, with no taxi for ease of transport. Lots of unpassable terrain to travel around that funnels you right through enemy camps. Still, I can only say it is HARDER, not actually hard.

 

But, I suspect leveling as the smuggler sawbones is rather unbalanced at the moment. Most 2 mans I can solo. I can stealth and CC my way through some 4 mans. Unless a mob is on a timer I can usually just spam heal my tank companion until the mob dies (tharsis comes to mind. I could easily solo him, I just couldn't beat the reset timer. The guy before him is impossible for most dps/tank classes, but I had little problem doing it on my own.) All the while I have great AoE damage, and even better single target burst on silver and standard mobs.

 

For those of you that are trying to level as dps I can see how some of this stuff would seem hard. As it stands, I get everything for the leveling process (stealth, cc for both living and droids, burst damage, aoe damage, great heals, easy and quick group invites for anything I can't solo, and probably much more.)

 

Try re-evaluating your strat and go at it again. Use consumables... stims, med packs, etc. Look at all your abilities again and try something different. Some of the stuff is hard, and that isn't necessarily a bad thing

[Laiov]

One of the most important aspects of higher level fights against elites is to counter their special abilities. You are required to use your interrupting abilities (e.g. Distraction on the Imperial Agent) in these fights to prevent these enemies from gaining the upper hand. In the short term, stuns and ballistic attacks/knockback will also help, but your interrupt abilities have the added benefit of preventing the target from using their special abilities.

Please consider allowing our instacast interrupts to be cast without also interrupting whatever else it is that we are doing at the time. Distraction, for example, should be castable over a channeled ability (like Snipe or Ambush), simultaneously, without stopping it. I think the most discouraging thing about interrupts in some more recent generation MMOs is that you have to interrupt yourself to use them.

 

On a class like the sniper, where resource management is foremost and cooldowns abound, I have found it problematic to have just started an Ambush when it suddenly becomes necessary to use Distraction on an elite's missile barrage. So if I can get away with not interrupting a mob's ability, I will tend not to. A bad habit if interrupting is intended to be a significant mechanic.

 

This may be particularly important if you are going to put exportable combat logs and DPS meters into the game.

Edited January 7, 2012 by Laiov

[citizensneeps]

lvl 50. Did quesh. Quesh is fine. Edited January 7, 2012 by citizensneeps

[Excedrin]

See, they're trying to teach you how to play by doing this. The game isn't too hard and as an MMO vet I didn't have any problems anywhere unless I overpulled. When you die your response should not be to ask for the difficulty decreased - it should be to examine your toolkit and see if there's anything available for use. Be strategic! Place your AOEs well, CC dangerous targets, interrupt priority abilities such as those that heal, use your other various weak/standard control spells to easily crush pulls of 3-4.

 

This is part of the fun of games. You hit a roadblock and eventually solve the 'puzzle' (or problem). If you have yet to solve the puzzle, you do not progress until you do. This is pretty much how things work in every game I know of.

 

EDIT:

 

Please consider allowing our instacast interrupts to be cast without also interrupting whatever else it is that we are doing at the time. Diversion, for example, should be castable over a channeled ability (like snipe or ambush), simultaneously, without stopping it. I think the most discouraging thing about interrupts in some more recent generation MMOs is that you have to interrupt yourself to use them.

 

On a class like the sniper, where resource management is foremost and cooldowns abound, I have found it problematic to have just started an Ambush when it suddenly becomes necessary to use Diversion on an elite's missile barrage. So if I can get away with not interrupting a mob's ability, I will tend not to. A bad habit if interrupting is intended to be a significant mechanic.

 

This may be particularly important if you are going to put exportable combat logs and DPS meters into the game.

 

No, that ruins the choice element in the combat. Basically, when that happens you're faced with the dilemma of whether to eat the cast time and interrupt the spell or finish the cast and eat the spell. It depends on what you see as having greater value at the moment, increased survivability or increased damage. Perhaps there are some abilities that are not worth interrupting and some that are - in which case, you decide based on the ability being cast.

 

I'm pretty sure that almost every class has a channeled damage spell and faces this dilemma. Not entirely sure about Ops/Scoundrels.

Edited January 7, 2012 by Excedrin

[RachelAnne]

I dont think the quest´s are too hard. I do every quest just fine, never needed any help. Even the heroics I usually do when I am about 3 lvls above them or earlier with a group ofc.

 

What I like is, that the quest´s are while challanging always well balanced. You need to pick the right companion, need to intercept, stun or CC in the right moment and then the fights will be hard but not unfair.

 

My guess is, that a lot of people who see questing as hard - do only know wow. There you can aoe down every mob, need some spider legs? Well go in and aoe 10 of them down, quest done.

 

This isnt possible at SWTOR and I am glad about this. Pulling more than 1 pack, more than 1 elite or champion is a fight that will most likely end with your dead. Just how it should be.

[Laiov]

No, that ruins the choice element in the combat. Basically, when that happens you're faced with the dilemma of whether to eat the cast time and interrupt the spell or finish the cast and eat the spell. It depends on what you see as having greater value at the moment, increased survivability or increased damage. Perhaps there are some abilities that are not worth interrupting and some that are - in which case, you decide based on the ability being cast.

I don't think this is a good (rewarding) dilemma when interrupts are a necessity as a matter of course, which is what it seems like the design philosophy for some of these fights shall be. There is no real choice in that case; you are risking the encounter if you don't interrupt.

 

Moreover, in a group, where multiple players have interrupts, it becomes more comfortable to let someone else handle it than reduce your own performance by interrupting your own best abilities. This is particularly so when exportable combat logs (and therefore DPS meters) are added to the game. I am reluctant to incessantly compare SWTOR to WoW, but the Agent's Distraction seems to function identically to the Mage's Counterspell and, in a climate of competitive DPS performance, it has been my experience that this is one of the first things to be sacrificed. The interrupt decision becomes a pain - a waste of DPS cooldown time, a nullification of the primary role your class plays - rather than something exciting to react to.

 

 

I'm pretty sure that almost every class has a channeled damage spell and faces this dilemma.

I don't mean to suggest that only the sniper should be exempt from this frustrating mechanic. If interrupting is intended to be necessary as a matter of course, then any class with an instant, cooldown-moderated interrupt should be able to cast that interrupt over their channeled abilities without also interrupting themselves.

Edited January 7, 2012 by Laiov

[Baizak]

Hmm sry if i dont belive you. There is a huge game un balance when it comes to classes that you know about but do nothing.

 

When you fix PvP and make it into something else then stunlock knockback dot hell at end game then i will belive you.

 

I think you completely missed the point of the thread and the devs response. PvP is not being discussed here at all.

[Excedrin]

I don't think this is a good (rewarding) dilemma when interrupts are a necessity as a matter of course, which is what it seems like the design philosophy for some of these fights shall be. There is no real choice in that case; you are risking the encounter if you don't interrupt.

 

Moreover, in a group, where multiple players have interrupts, it becomes more comfortable to let someone else handle it than reduce your own performance by interrupting your own best abilities. This is particularly so when exportable combat logs (and therefore DPS meters) are added to the game. I am reluctant to incessantly compare SWTOR to WoW, but the Agent's Diversion seems to function identically to the Mage's Counterspell and, in a climate of competitive DPS performance, it has been my experience that this is one of the first things to be sacrificed. The interrupt decision becomes a pain - a waste of DPS cooldown time, a suspension of the primary role your class plays - rather than something exciting to react to.

 

I'm sorry that you feel that way but that's the way it works with interrupts and cast times. I played a Mage alt in Warcraft (yes, I raided on him) and if you need to interrupt something in that game you absolutely have to drop what you're doing and interrupt it. Losing a cast may show up on your DPS, but not in a hugely significant way. Acting like having to interrupt is the reason people did shoddy DPS is dishonest.

 

It's not something exciting to react to. That's environmental damage, a damage proc, as a healer it's a sudden spike in damage that gives me a split second to formulate a solution and react. It's a choice. Sometimes it's no choice at all, you're right. But then you learn to adapt to that. You mentioned having to interrupt and drop cast time during a cooldown. Have you considered timing your cooldown to come directly after your interrupt? By that time, at least on my sorc, I can't chain interrupt it so I'm going to eat one anyways.

 

Be strategic should be everyone's mantra when they come up against something that seems too tough.

Edited January 7, 2012 by Excedrin

[Xukuth]

Q was easy....what are you talking about?

[Laiov]

I'm sorry that you feel that way but that's the way it works with interrupts and cast times. I played a Mage alt in Warcraft (yes, I raided on him) and if you need to interrupt something in that game you absolutely have to drop what you're doing and interrupt it.

Like I said in my first post, I consider the fact that you have to interrupt yourself the most discouraging thing about interrupts in some more recent generation MMOs. My raiding main in Warcraft was a Mage so I'm very familiar with this unfortunate mechanic as well as its result: interrupt duty tending to fall entirely upon the tank or the rogue.

 

This was not the case in earlier MMOs, so it does not suffice to say "that's the way it works". The self-interrupt mechanic is not necessary. In Dark Age of Camelot, for example, back in 2003, instacast spells did not have to be sequenced with cast spells at all. I'm not suggesting SWTOR go that far with layered casting, although it would be nice; just that they remove the penalty for using interrupts in PvE if interrupts are intended to be required as a matter of course to deal with these encounters. The ability to remain aware of what the elite mob is casting and reacting to it quickly and correctly is challenging and rewarding in and of itself. Wasting a cooldown and taking a DPS hit despite that success is just discouraging.

 

 

 

Sometimes it's no choice at all, you're right. But then you learn to adapt to that.

I do not mean to suggest that interrupts as they stand are impossible to use, or that this bad interrupt-self-to-interrupt-mob mechanic can't be adapted to. Just that it seems to me players should be encouraged rather than discouraged (rewarded rather than penalized over their role rather than just over the encounter) to use spells of necessary utility, lest those spells inevitably become chores for other players of particular role to bear disproportionately during logged group PvE play. Which is usually what happens. Which, it seems to me, would be at odds with an intent to make the use of any given player's interrupts integral to these fights as a matter of course.

 

Just sayin'.

Edited January 7, 2012 by Laiov

[Cedia]

Captain Jesh is bugged to hell. No other problems on the planet so far.

 

Level 39 Gunslinger here, no way I can kill him. He is level 36!!!

 

I just took down a level 37 elite in my class quest and ended up with Corso and myself with half health.

 

I repeat, Captain Jesh is a level 36 elite mob. He is green to me. I cannot kill him. He has a single target insta-cast damage skill that takes down half of Corso's health in one shot, and he spams that thing.

 

This seriously needs to be looked at.

[GIazzen]

I soloed Quesh at level range.

[Gorrdo]

Please don't make this game any easier then it already is....

[Scan]

Im betting that if we watched this guy play we would know instantly why he is failing being four levels above a quest zone..

 

Dude, seriously stop trying to gimp what is already a face-roll.

 

You are destroying this genre.

[Kolzarr]

Just arrived and quickly knocked out a few quests, im level 36, nothing really hard so far... hoping it will get more challenging later on.

[Scan]

Captain Jesh is bugged to hell. No other problems on the planet so far.

 

Level 39 Gunslinger here, no way I can kill him. He is level 36!!!

 

I just took down a level 37 elite in my class quest and ended up with Corso and myself with half health.

 

I repeat, Captain Jesh is a level 36 elite mob. He is green to me. I cannot kill him. He has a single target insta-cast damage skill that takes down half of Corso's health in one shot, and he spams that thing.

 

This seriously needs to be looked at.

 

You have a tank pet? Best way I've seen is use the tank pet and hit the boss as hard and as fast as you can, interupting any healing spells, make sure you use the best gear you can get on you and your compantion and use the best stim, adrenal and med pack. If you still fail then maybe this isnt the mmo you are looking for because if you find anything I have done so far in this game (i goto the eternity vault sunday for the first time) then you are just turning this game and this genre into a joke.

 

Please, go play something else rather than try to convince devs to make this stuff easier.

[puzzlemaniak]

I was doing Quesh as my sorc and only challenge I found was fighting Master Berin (content soloed @ ~34 lvl), he literally ***** Khem, and I had to run circles weaving Force Speed with Force Slow and applying DoTs, other than that it was super easy. On the other hand some fights in Taris, especially fighting Thana were much more demanding, but I heard opinions that leveling ~30 is a bit harsh, and noticeably harder than in higher lvl zones, like Belsavis, which is imo true.

[Deepmemories]

Never had issues with any quests, even killed elite mobs 2-3 levels above me.

[Asavar]

lol, you think Quesh is hard? Have fun on Voss ;D

[Skirata_Kal]

We're looking at this.

 

A few general notes on challenging fights.

 

One of the most important aspects of higher level fights against elites is to counter their special abilities. You are required to use your interrupting abilities (e.g. Distraction on the Imperial Agent) in these fights to prevent these enemies from gaining the upper hand. In the short term, stuns and ballistic attacks/knockback will also help, but your interrupt abilities have the added benefit of preventing the target from using their special abilities.

 

Make sure your companion is properly equipped and that their signature abilities are enabled. For example, if you rely on your companion to take the brunt of the beating in a fight, make sure their 'defensive stance' is activated. Turn off their area of effect abilities when you're fighting single enemies - they are not efficient for these fights. You can enable/disable abilities by opening your companion panel (~ by default) and right clicking the ability. The green indicator on an ability tells you if a companion will consider the ability for use in their AI rotation.

 

Do not underestimate the benefit of stims and relics as short term efforts to turn the tide. Same goes for your 20 minute 'heroic moment' ability (the one that only works with your companion and triggers the music).

 

This sounds obvious, but make sure that your skill points (k) are distributed and that you've trained primary your abilities to level.

 

Finally, if all else fails, gaining additional equipment, levels or bringing a friend along to help with a challenging fight can be used to overcome temporary blocks. However, be advised that if you run into constantly very challenging fights, it is a good indication that your equipment might need updating.

 

All these notes aside, we are looking at difficulty issues constantly. If we find a trend that indicate a certain fight is broken or a specific advanced class has issues, we will act accordingly. If you want to provide additional insights, such as your character's spec, your approach to combat, your companion or a particular fight you would like us to look at, please feel free to do so in this thread.

 

regards

Georg

 

Overall, I don't have too many issues with Quesh so far. My lvl 38 healing spec Scoundrel so far has only struggled against Jesh. I made 3 attempts before giving up due to the wait on the Probe Revive and going back to the med-center = "we're done with this for now". On the first attempt, IIRC, I CC'd Jesh and then Corso and I quickly took down his two adds. I put a pair of HoTs on Corso and then had him pull Jesh and was quickly overwhelmed. It seemed like the second he aggro'd both of us had 4 different DoT's on us and there was no way any of my heals could arrive in time for one of us much less both. (BTW to the inevitable "you need to l2play" trolls, I've played MMO's and PC games longer than some of you have been alive and always got return invites and guild switch requests as a healer during Vanilla Wow, BC and Wrath so I'm not a scrub, though I'll admit to not being the best of the best...and I healed Taral V just fine at lvl 35 with a 32 tank and a group that didn't know what CC is).

 

Most elites I get on the first try, though this wasn't my first death by any stretch, so I thought it over and came up with a strategy and tried again. This time he had no adds, I again put the two HoTs on Corso and tried again, this time making sure I wasn't too close. This try went much better since I wasn't taking any of the damage and for a time I was able to Cleanse Corso's DoTs and heal ahead of the damage, but once again their came a point where he had more DoTs than I can cleanse, and even after burning Cool Head and later All In (followed by another Cool Head) I still didn't have the energy needed to Cleanse and heal and Corso went down again and without any energy reserves, I quickly went down as well even with bubbling and dodge (and with no energy, a heal spec'd scoundrel does no noticable damage).

 

By the time I was able to Revive from my second attempt (yes I should have vanished after Corso went down), the two adds were back so on the third try, I cc'd Jesh and killed the adds again. This time, I tried to watch for what Jesh was doing and interrupt (I have 3) but still Corso took too much DoT damage and even with Cool Head (All In has 20 minute CD) I didn't have the energy to Interrupt, Heal AND Cleanse. I did manage to get Jesh down to 10% health on this try but clearly that was as far as this effort was going to go.

 

I'm certainly not asking for any nerfs, especially since most of what I've seen of Quesh is more than reasonable IMHO. In fact, even the large 18k health elite robots that attack after clicking on a quest node barely scratched Corso, so healing him and contributing some DPS was effortless lol. The Jesh fight though does look like it could use some tuning, not alot, but some. Either a slight adjustment to his cast time or cd or something of that nature. But definitely not a nerf to the ground!

 

Grouping, at present, isn't really an option when there are only 4 other people on Quesh and general stays silent after a group request (small server my friends, who I currently outlevel, and I moved to when the one our guild was assigned to had a queue time that was unacceptable...but that's another topic for another thread), so I'll probably just move on to the other quests and come back later. I have considered switching to Bowdaar and trying to gear him up and seeing if he'll do better. And I'm always open to other suggestions because I know I don't know everything lol. Anyway, troll away trolls, "l2play" right?