Planned Warzone Changes Part 2

[Jmenks]

Well those movement changes are incredibly stupid, and take a lot of the fun away from Huttball.

 

You're punishing those who know how to use their classes correctly and rewarding those who stand in places they shouldn't...giving free scores. Typical Bioware.

 

It's just going to be slow and boring, taking forever to score. Please rethink the hinder changes. As someone who has played this game for 5 years, and saw the excitement that Huttball has brought in 8v8 ranked (minus the click macros)...this kills it

Edited June 5, 2018 by Jmenks

[Banderal]

Suggestion: Make a guide on "WHATS RESOLVE" and make that guide pop in every wz until people reach like Valor 50..that might help in some of this issues people seem to have.

 

Not an in-game guide, but here (this is not mine, from a former player who I don't know at all personally, but had a lot of respect for - Krea)...

 

 

Maybe bioware can find a way to link it, or embed it in the game?

Edited June 5, 2018 by Banderal

[Rafiknoll]

Suggestion: Make a guide on "WHATS RESOLVE" and make that guide pop in every wz until people reach like Valor 50..that might help in some of this issues people seem to have.

 

How could I miss this line before?

 

The funny thing is, this thing already exists almost exactly. Every new character entering his first PVP match gets a codex entry called "Resolve" which explains resolve. Too bad 99.999% of the players don't know that most codex entries under the category "game rules" are actually meant to be read

[Nothing to be ashamed of. Most devs forgot it too, that is why you can see "willpower", "surge rating", "skill tree" or "expertise" occasionally mentioned in there, but the resolve entry was fine, last I checked]

 

Remove the option NOT to have the resolve bar clearly visible above enemy players, that is something some people obviously don't consider as they flashbang around...

Maybe also capitalize all the "DAMAGE CAUSES THIS EFFECT TO END PREMATURELY" on all soft stuns. People need to realize that and stop whirlwinding (and whitebarring) a DoTed ball carrier, or any ball carrier for instance...

[Firewolfie]

im good with being hindered while having the huttball, but not being able to receive the huttball while stunned will make it more of a stunfest than it already is.

[Okod]

Huttball is my favourite match type by far, but there are definitely some classes that over-perform, especially in PUG matches where there's very little coordinated opposition. As such some changes to the format are welcome, and is something I've thought about and discussed before.

 

My main wishes are below, and I'm thinking all 4 work together but testing would be required, but I like some of Snave's suggestions, too.

 

 

1. Apply a stacking healing debuff to the carrier, as suggested elsewhere. Thought should be given to the duration it remains for after the ball is passed to prevent , for example, passing from tank to healer and back to tank to clear said debuff. Depending on the duration it stays for, it should possibly reset when the ball does.
    
    
   
2. Apply a modified 'hinder' effect that only applies to non-targeted mobility actions; roll, dash, sprint, etc. This does give an advantage to some classes, but I feel the targeted nature of leap, intercede, pull, etc requires bad positioning of the enemy team - which should be punished - or good positioning/teamwork from your team - which should be rewarded.
    
    
   
3. Use the temporary ability bar to grant the ball carrier a dash type ability. Yes I'm suggesting taking these away from classes, just to give them back! However this ability would be standardised across classes and balanced for Huttball specifically; root break, CC immunity, short duration (~2s), no damage mitigation, at least a 30s CD (I'm thinking 45-60s, but not sure without testing). This should allow people to make some headway, and skip some inactive hazards. Active hazards, however...
    
    
   
4. Increase damage or other effects of the hazards. They've lost their bite over the years as classes have gained mobility and/or damage mitigation. Make them actually hazardous again.
   

 

I think these work together to encourage more teamwork without bogging down progression too much.

 

As for the listed changes, the only one that concerns me is stun blocking a pass. Can see this could lead to stalemates, and also makes it easy for stealth classes to shadow someone expected to receive a pass (on the line, up high, etc) and just stun them to easily intercept.

[JMNeves]

Carrying the Huttball now applies Hinder to the character. Hinder prevents the use of high mobility actions such as Force Charge, Force Speed, Scamper, and more.

 

Due to the Hinder changes above players holding the Huttball will now move at 80% movement speed (up from 67%)

 

I love the idea, but maybe a stacking healing debuff as suggested by Snave would be better? Idk, some things such as scamper are overpowered for Huttball because they get you through fire unscathed, but Force Speed and Charging abilities are fine on my book as they do make the match more dynamic. Specially the sage/sorc's rescue ability. They only become a problem when the same person holds the ball for a long time (specially with a good healer in their pocket).

 

The way it is today it isn't fun when running into premades because they get one tank holding the ball and a healer keeping them alive. So changes are welcomed regardless.

 

Still, I'd prefer if we kept moving at 67% speed (maybe a bit faster, 70 to 75%) but losing scamper, translocate, and getting a 10% stacking healing/ damage taken debuff every five or ten seconds. The way I see it, it's better to force people to pass at the face of death, than to deny people the use their abilities.

[Banderal]

If hinder means the same thing to you than it does to me im pretty sure people dont want to be ELECTRO NETTED when playing the specific objective for those WZs. No one likes to be netted, its just not fun..

 

Also yes. Now that I've read other people's predictions, and with this comment... I changed my mind. I don't want the movement hinderances anymore. You are right. Being netted SUCKS. (In fact, maybe they can add a separate "netted" resolve that makes it so that once I've suffered it, say, once per day, it doesn't affect any of my toons anymore?)

 

I also like the healing debuff idea.

 

I've also advocated just exploding the ball quicker. Give us like 10 seconds to pass, then boom. That's only 1/2 a joke. I mean, if they want it to be a passing game, why bother with all these "suggestions to pass"... just bite the bullet and force it.

[Banderal]

As for the listed changes, the only one that concerns me is stun blocking a pass. Can see this could lead to stalemates, and also makes it easy for stealth classes to shadow someone expected to receive a pass (on the line, up high, etc) and just stun them to easily intercept.

 

This basically is already possible with knockback instead. But yes, I still think stun to prevent reception is a bad idea.

[Metthew]

I sure can! Apologies for being ambiguous in the messaging.

 

Your initial reading is correct. There are two effects that happen:

1. Players begin taking 1% of their maximum health every second. This effect does NOT stack, it is always 1%.
   
2. You receive a 2% penalty to healing every second. This DOES stack, it increases by 2% per stack.
   

What this means is that as players fight during the arena end phase, healing will continue to become less effective over time until it does nothing. That penalty plus the constant 1% damage will apply more and more kill pressure to the remaining players.

 

Hope that clears up any confusion!

 

-eric

 

*thumbs up*

Seconded, RIP SR acid strats, won't be missed.

[Skolops]

The Huttball changes would make every game play out like the old 8v8 rated Huttball matches - and that's an awful, awful thing.

 

I have been playing long enough to remember those days and played on some very, very good teams and against some very, very good teams. Even with such high skill level, there was nothing to those games other than giving the ball to the tank and having him walk it to the end zone. There was no passing, since it was too dangerous, and there was generally no use of high mobility actions, since they were also too dangerous because they separated the tank and healer. The one exception was that the tank would almost always friendly leap into the endzone from the pit.

 

The games were stale. Rather than having greater counterplay or team play than the average regular match, they had far, far less. There was no diversity of strategy, no room for a clever player to make a good play or for a different class to do something interesting because the only player who could do anything with the ball was the tank who was essentially unkillable with the healer - (and remember that the new matchmaking system will be putting a tank and healer in every match).

 

Rather than making more players focus on objectives and help to score the goal, it made 6 of 8 players deathmatch around the ball spawn because that was the only way to win one of those games. What is the biggest complaint about Huttball? "My teammates don't play the ball but just fight." These changes will make that much more common than it already is.

 

Even though Huttball has always been my favorite warzone, it was always my least favorite in a rated game. In fact, it was always *everybody's* least favorite in a rated game because it was the most stale, the most boring, the most just like one of those Voidstar Stalemates that the other changes are directed against. It was like following a script every game.

 

Regular Huttball games don't work this way and all of the different mobility skills make it possible for all of the different classes to participate in some way. An operative or Sniper can carry the ball, at least for a little while. A DPS Vanguard or Guardian can carry the ball if need be because even though they're squishy, if they're skilled they can use things like Hydraulics and leaps and intercedes at the right moments to contribute anyways. Just about every class can make defensive plays because every game isn't about a tank walking from one end to the other with a healbot.

 

Overall, the Huttball changes are a terrible idea and would result in everything that people hate about Huttball becoming more central to the warzone and everything that people like about it being removed.

[Mycroft-Tarkin]

I sure can! Apologies for being ambiguous in the messaging.

 

Your initial reading is correct. There are two effects that happen:

1. Players begin taking 1% of their maximum health every second. This effect does NOT stack, it is always 1%.
   
2. You receive a 2% penalty to healing every second. This DOES stack, it increases by 2% per stack.
   

What this means is that as players fight during the arena end phase, healing will continue to become less effective over time until it does nothing. That penalty plus the constant 1% damage will apply more and more kill pressure to the remaining players.

 

Hope that clears up any confusion!

 

-eric

 

Hey,

 

This largely disadvantages classes that don't have self heals. As a Shadow I basically have 0 self-healing abilities while there are DPS classes out there that have 100% uptime on their self heals.

[kukumburr]

Even though Huttball has always been my favorite warzone, it was always my least favorite in a rated game. In fact, it was always *everybody's* least favorite in a rated game because it was the most stale, the most boring, the most just like one of those Voidstar Stalemates that the other changes are directed against. It was like following a script every game.

 

Speak for yourself! Huttball matches were by far my favorite in 8v8 ranked. They were almost always super intense. Although I don't disagree about the changes. Mobility is more fun.

[Skolops]

Speak for yourself! Huttball matches were by far my favorite in 8v8 ranked. They were almost always super intense. Although I don't disagree about the changes. Mobility is more fun.

 

Well, when I say everybody, I mean everybody I knew, not everybody in the world. I'm sure there are some different opinions. At the same time, I did know a lot of people across many guilds n the rated community so while the opinion was not universal by any means, I do think it was very common.

[_Miriya_]

I dont think Huttball changes are a good idea. How do you expect the ball carrier to live enough to find one person to pass the ball in time (considering, tbh, that there isn't more than 1 or 2 clever players willing to run and play the ball)?

 

If you dont have a healer, and a good one, you will lose Huttball and it has nothing to do with you. This modification only rewards tanks and healers groups, and premades.

 

Not a good idea this time.

[Skolops]

Not sure if it's been mentioned elsewhere, but also remember that many classes have access to root breaks only through traited high mobility skills, so another consequence of the changes is likely to be a lot of being rooted all the time, which has got to be the least fun thing in the game.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

Does Hinder apply to Sage/Sorc Pulls, too? If it doesn't then a Sage/Sorc + Tank becomes the de facto ball running team (given that Hinder basically says only have a tank run the Huttball). Also, would the Huttball matchmaking ensure a tank on both teams? The side without a tank would be at a disadvantage.

 

Snave's suggested healing debuff would be a better answer to getting more passing of the Huttball. You would only want to hold on to it for so long, dps would still do well as Huttball carriers, and the matchmaking wouldn't need to be as fussy about tanks/healers.

 

If the hinder in question acts as the hinder effect that Carnage Marauders have on the Gore attack than it's defined as

"hindering the target.... preventing the use of high mobility actions and escapes."

 

If we assume that the hinder only applies to the ball carrier than a non-ball carrier shouldn't have the hinder effect them in any way because they are not the one that's hinder. It wouldn't make much sense that a person who is not the hindered one should have any ability they use effected.

 

But one could make the argument that the sorc pull or use of predation isn't be effected and that the debuff on the hindered player is the decisive factor. Predation doesn't increase the movement of fellow players effected by e-nets so I would imagine they will likely take a similar view in the case of the hinder effect on the ball carrier. Also there is the possibility that there is some effect on the hinder that will effect the ball carrier that isn't present on a different ability that also has a hinder effect. The debuff might have some other variable applied in addition to the hinder as applies only in that case. They can pretty much do whatever they want though so who knows if the same thing that applies to hinder a player has will be so in this case.

 

Edit: I'm seeing now that Eric said it will apply to Sorc pulls. So much for that =p

Edited June 6, 2018 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[Jmenks]

The acid and arena changes are great and long over due.

 

Just can't imagine playing Huttball without using my abilities given to score strategically or scoring because of someone else's mistakes. Now it's just...walk slowly towards the endzone, get stunned and pulled into acid/fire with no escape.

 

Can't break and sprint, roll, dash, intercede...leap, force push, leap again. You guys are taking the unique play out of the game completely. Very disappointing if you roll with these changes.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

You also lose a fair amount of root breakers available. Basically, a first level Assassin utility (root on Overload) to the fire bit now means that most classes either have to use breaker to get out or die to what is like a level 12 ability with a first tier utility. The mobility changes are astonishingly idiotic.

 

Edit: For Sins Force speed is also a potent DCD, same goes for Concealment roll, proccing heals for Lethality, Sniper roll... Furthermore, doesn't Predation work in spite of being Hindered?

 

Predation doesn't work in spite of being hindered , it's that the Unbound utility allows you to purge it and is activated through the use of Predation. [it doesn't work against the effects of e-net though]

 

Unbound -

" When Predation is applied or refreshed, it purges movement-impairing effects. Additionally, the movement speed bonus of Predation is increased by 30%."

 

Naturally if the person doesn't choose that utility than it can't be used in that manner.

Edited June 6, 2018 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[eusebus]

With the hinder debuff in huttball, does that really gimp a lot of classes usefulness in huttball. A lot of huttball games, only a handful play objectives. Will this push more players to make this map a glorified deathmatch? Edited June 6, 2018 by eusebus

[Viraxis]

The arena changes sound great. Anything is better than what is currently implemented.

 

I will have to wait an see about Huttball. From what I see currently the only class with huge advantages are agents and smuggler advanced classes. It is just way overpowered for huttball and a distinct advantage over every other class. Just as bad as the classes who cant be interrupted to drop powerups and deactivates in odessen. Adding a stacking healing debuff doesn't level the playing field. agent/smuggs will still be able to move faster with that idea and therefore still have an advantage.

 

To me on paper, this seems it will make it not very fun to play huttball anymore and I play it on all classes. There has to be a way to bring non-targetted enhanced mobility inline just for warzones.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

I sure can! Apologies for being ambiguous in the messaging.

 

Your initial reading is correct. There are two effects that happen:

1. Players begin taking 1% of their maximum health every second. This effect does NOT stack, it is always 1%.
   
2. You receive a 2% penalty to healing every second. This DOES stack, it increases by 2% per stack.
   

What this means is that as players fight during the arena end phase, healing will continue to become less effective over time until it does nothing. That penalty plus the constant 1% damage will apply more and more kill pressure to the remaining players.

 

Hope that clears up any confusion!

 

-eric

 

 

 

Check out Eric with the speedy replies today! Go you, Eric! =]

 

P.S. 5 days and haven't been banned again yet Eric!

Edited June 6, 2018 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[Pallais]

Hinder is intended to apply to to Sage/Sorc pulls, yes. Translocate / Transpose as well. Meaning those abilities will not work on Hindered targets.

 

-eric

 

Thank you for the quick response.

[SebastianII]

Hey folks,

 

 

[*]Carrying the Huttball now applies Hinder to the character. Hinder prevents the use of high mobility actions such as Force Charge, Force Speed, Scamper, and more.

[*]Due to the Hinder changes above players holding the Huttball will now move at 80% movement speed (up from 67%)

 

 

-eric

 

No seriously, why do we have movement abilities if we can't use them strategically?? You are ruining class diversity even further and making competition boring

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

With the hinder debuff in huttball, does that really gimp a lot of classes usefulness in huttball. The team with the most sorc pulls and a pt/ vanguard tank with that translocate ability will have a much bigger advantage. Seems like it will give incentive for people who dont have that team comp to just deathmatch.

 

You say that like it's a bad thing.

 

If this is what the changes will mean, than I'm all for it. I just want to hurt people.

 

-----

 

I'm basically fine with it either way, but I think some consideration should be given to amount of players that are for and against the mobility changes. We really want to keep as many people playing as possible and that's usually accomplished by not pissing them off with 7000 changes that no one asked for to begin with.

 

Every change is a variable and unknown. Things that seem good on paper may turn out to be unrealistic or undesirable in actual play. The more changes that are made the more potential there is for opening a can of worms.

 

While I'm happy with all the emphasis being placed on PVP QoL and other aspects, and some of the changes are excellent ideas [cross faction not being one of them =p], so many changes at the same time is bound to lead to problems. There are too many people with different ideas about what's best and each change can upset the apple cart. Thusly, I think it would be highly advisable to actually test these changes on the PTS with the proper amount of time to consider variables involved.

 

Changes may very well turn out good but only live play will be a reliable measuring block. I'd say discretion in this case would be the better part of valor.

Edited June 6, 2018 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[PennyAnn]

Huttball is my favourite match type by far, but there are definitely some classes that over-perform, especially in PUG matches where there's very little coordinated opposition. As such some changes to the format are welcome, and is something I've thought about and discussed before.

 

My main wishes are below, and I'm thinking all 4 work together but testing would be required, but I like some of Snave's suggestions, too.

 

 

1. Apply a stacking healing debuff to the carrier, as suggested elsewhere. Thought should be given to the duration it remains for after the ball is passed to prevent , for example, passing from tank to healer and back to tank to clear said debuff. Depending on the duration it stays for, it should possibly reset when the ball does.
    
    
   
2. Apply a modified 'hinder' effect that only applies to non-targeted mobility actions; roll, dash, sprint, etc. This does give an advantage to some classes, but I feel the targeted nature of leap, intercede, pull, etc requires bad positioning of the enemy team - which should be punished - or good positioning/teamwork from your team - which should be rewarded.
    
    
   
3. Use the temporary ability bar to grant the ball carrier a dash type ability. Yes I'm suggesting taking these away from classes, just to give them back! However this ability would be standardised across classes and balanced for Huttball specifically; root break, CC immunity, short duration (~2s), no damage mitigation, at least a 30s CD (I'm thinking 45-60s, but not sure without testing). This should allow people to make some headway, and skip some inactive hazards. Active hazards, however...
    
    
   
4. Increase damage or other effects of the hazards. They've lost their bite over the years as classes have gained mobility and/or damage mitigation. Make them actually hazardous again.
   

 

I think these work together to encourage more teamwork without bogging down progression too much.

 

As for the listed changes, the only one that concerns me is stun blocking a pass. Can see this could lead to stalemates, and also makes it easy for stealth classes to shadow someone expected to receive a pass (on the line, up high, etc) and just stun them to easily intercept.

 

+1+1+1+1+1!!!!!!!!

 

This is an excellent post. I hope so very much that Eric reads this!

 

The arena changes seem very good, the Huttball ones seem intended well, but miss the mark in a couple of places.

 

The biggest problem with hindering movement abilities is that most people took utilities that allowed them to break stuns with those abilities. It is ALREADY a stun-fest that is not fun to deal with, especially for those who are newer to PvP. "I couldn't pass, I was stunned until I was dead" is way too common already. If you take away the only way some people have to break out of a stun once their official "stun breaker" ability is on cooldown, then Huttball will become the very least fun warzone map there is. Enough people already feel that way that I think you need to reconsider some of this.

 

I very much like the idea of a secondary "special ability" that goes on the bar with the huttball if you are a carrier that allows you to break a stun or give yourself some type of movement boost. Anyone with the ball would get it, and it would be a very even playing field that way when combined with your other abilities/stun breaks. I highly encourage you guys to consider this when you are developing the Huttball changes.

 

.