Any advice on how to play dps jugg (rage) in SR?

[Lundorff]

Is there anyone, apart from myself, who currently play dps jugg as a main in solo ranked? If so, do you have any pointers on how to survive better? In some matches I am performing okay or even mildly good, while in others I get smash focused and die incredible fast. Kiting ranged and using buildings and obstacles is a must, but when you have 2 maras + 1 merc on your <censor> things tend to go one way fast.

 

If I suspect I will get focused (hahaha....), I will often pre-pop Saber Ward + Ardrenal as this will allow me to survive the incoming double hard-stuns. Then I probably have to used Endure + Medpack and hit Reflect all the while I am trying to slow the homicidal lovesick stalkers down. But now I only have ED left, and I sorta have to time it with the next hard stun. And then I am out of fluff and must embrace death.

 

During this I will only do 100-200k damage and take about 300k in return.

 

Some might wonder why I don't use ED sooner - and I might - but there is generally no point in using it fast, as I simply don't survive 1:30 minute (utility). Only with a healer or tank is the utility worth taking in my experience. Most of the time I don't even get a second go at Reflect, even if I pop it first.

 

So, any pointers besides "go tank, go mara" etc.

[Lundorff]

A better defensive "rotation" might be:

 

Enraged Defense first during the initial double stuns.

Then Reflect.

Then Saber Ward + Adrenal

Then Endure + Medpack

And maybe, just maybe I would occasional be able to steal a second ED with the utility.

 

But I honestly I doubt it would make any difference. Awe-stunning the cretins is the best defense, but that is seldom possible.

Edited May 4, 2018 by Lundorff

[Alec_Fortescue]

Here's a guide for rage jugg in SR:

 

Don't queue as jug dps.

[Lundorff]

Here's a guide for rage jugg in SR:

 

Don't queue as jug dps.

 

Such insightful and inspirational answer. And you wonder why people like to break your queue syncs.

[yellow_]

A better defensive "rotation" might be:

 

Enraged Defense first during the initial double stuns.

Then Reflect.

Then Saber Ward + Adrenal

Then Endure + Medpack

And maybe, just maybe I would occasional be able to steal a second ED with the utility.

 

But I honestly I doubt it would make any difference. Awe-stunning the cretins is the best defense, but that is seldom possible.

I don't think it makes sense to stack saber ward and adrenal. Some damage simply misses when SW is up so your adrenal is slightly wasted given that, and also the yellow damage you're taking is reduced first by adrenal (adrenal is a increased DR cooldown) making the after-DR damage the saber ward is applied to smaller...again "wasting" SW a bit.

 

This is unorthodox so take it with a grain of salt, but I think it makes sense to get adrenal up relatively early if it's not a tank/healer game as jugg dps. The reason being that the start of the fight features a ton of relic procs and autocrits so you often stand to get the best bang for your buck on damage reduction during this period (this fact makes vengeance's leap immunity+DR as big of a deal as it is in SR). Meanwhile saber ward is not a good option here as it can be notoriously countered by hard stuns so it is best to wait for white bar to use it if possible. Also any autocrits that miss because of saber ward will just happen again in 10-15 seconds anyway when your DR is gone and hit you for a gorillian damage.

 

Obviously the ideal thing to do with autocrit heatseekers is reflect them but good players are actively trying to avoid this.

 

Lastly I understand it might be tempting to ED first but in my experience if you're being hard focused your odds of getting a 2nd one by adopting this strategy are still really terrible, at least if it's not a game with healers. And as just discussed this strategy is going to result in all the autocrits aimed at you at the start of the round doing full damage. I have to think this is usually not worth rolling the dice on maybe living long enough to get a 2nd ED.

 

I haven't messed with it much but I think the main thing to do correctly with ED now is to waste as little of it as possible as it's capable of healing for so much more. We have to find the new sweet spot for it that maximizes the amount of healing you get from it and minimizes the odds of being that guy who gets too greedy and eats a couple 25ks and dies before using hardly any of the stacks (I saw at least a couple juggs make this mistake yesterday).

 

tl;dr you're trying to die slow as a jugg dps in SR so adrenaling early makes sense mathematically if you're being hard focused + using ED early will probably not get you a 2nd ED anyway if there aren't any healers in the game + don't stack adrenal and SW

Edited May 4, 2018 by yellow_

[yellow_]

I will often pre-pop Saber Ward + Ardrenal as this will allow me to survive the incoming double hard-stuns.

You really don't want to do this. Defense chance drops to zero when you are hard stunned in swtor, even when you have CDs up. Cooldowns like deflection and operative evasion (unless it's talented for the yellow reflect) literally don't do anything while you're stunned. Only the yellow DR on SW is doing anything while stunned. It is best to let the double hardstun happen and then use SW while white barred for maximum value.

 

So, any pointers besides "go tank, go mara" etc.

Only other thing I would say is if you know they're going to focus you that you should hang far enough back from your team that the other team is tempted to go charging through your team just to get to you. If they choose to do this it creates an early advantage for your teammates. If you're being hard focused and your teammates aren't *completely* incompetent is it always best to prioritize dying slowly. I occasionally win rounds by just doing a really good job of running away more than anything else.

 

Just don't hang so far back that if the other team goes on a secondary target that it takes you forever to join the fight yourself, leaving your team 3v4ing for a long time. If you join the fight at just the right time it'll probably save you from some autocrits, and it often causes confusion in the other team (do we swap to the jugg now that he's here? do we continue on this guy we opened on?). Sometimes you cause people on the other team to split damage just by coincidence of when you finally show up.

[Lundorff]

I don't think it makes sense to stack saber ward and adrenal. Some damage simply misses when SW is up so your adrenal is slightly wasted given that, and also the yellow damage you're taking is reduced first by adrenal (adrenal is a increased DR cooldown) making the after-DR damage the saber ward is applied to smaller...again "wasting" SW a bit.

 

That is an interesting point. I must admit, I thought the DR on SW sorta stacked with DR from Adrenal, but it makes sense that it would overlap.

 

 

Lastly I understand it might be tempting to ED first but in my experience if you're being hard focused your odds of getting a 2nd one by adopting this strategy are still really terrible, at least if it's not a game with healers. And as just discussed this strategy is going to result in all the autocrits aimed at you at the start of the round doing full damage. I have to think this is usually not worth rolling the dice on maybe living long enough to get a 2nd ED.

 

But I would only use any type of healing if I was quite low on health. My thinking is generally this: Walp I am dying and stunned = ED. Walp I am dying but not stunned = Endure + Medpack. Would you use Endure + Medpack prior to ED if possible?

 

 

 

I haven't messed with it much but I think the main thing to do correctly with ED now is to waste as little of it as possible as it's capable of healing for so much more. We have to find the new sweet spot for it that maximizes the amount of healing you get from it and minimizes the odds of being that guy who gets too greedy and eats a couple 25ks and dies before using hardly any of the stacks (I saw at least a couple juggs make this mistake yesterday).

 

Perhaps I could take the utility Through Power for the speed and movement-immunity and then only use ED while white barred. Then I could run and kite while healing a bit more slowly. Maybe. I think it would be very random.

 

 

Only other thing I would say is if you know they're going to focus you that you should hang far enough back from your team that the other team is tempted to go charging through your team just to get to you. If they choose to do this it creates an early advantage for your teammates. If you're being hard focused and your teammates aren't *completely* incompetent is it always best to prioritize dying slowly. I occasionally win rounds by just doing a really good job of running away more than anything else.

 

Just don't hang so far back that if the other team goes on a secondary target that it takes you forever to join the fight yourself, leaving your team 3v4ing for a long time. If you join the fight at just the right time it'll probably save you from some autocrits, and it often causes confusion in the other team (do we swap to the jugg now that he's here? do we continue on this guy we opened on?). Sometimes you cause people on the other team to split damage just by coincidence of when you finally show up.

 

Yes I try to do this if it's obvious that I am the target, but it's sure risque to wait too long. I actually had a funny encounter with this the other day. I was waiting up in spawn, but too close to the edge, so a sin managed to mezz me while I was standing there, and the timer was just about to expire! So I had use my breaker in spawn and immediately jump down to 3 hungry jackals heh. That was not my finest hour.

 

But thank for the insight!

[yellow_]

But I would only use any type of healing if I was quite low on health. My thinking is generally this: Walp I am dying and stunned = ED. Walp I am dying but not stunned = Endure + Medpack. Would you use Endure + Medpack prior to ED if possible?

I think you just need to pay attention to your resolve, be careful with your breaker, and use EP + medpac last. The reason being that doing this makes the whole "when the effect ends the health is lost" part of the CD irrelevant because in your typical solo ranked game you will just die before the end of it anyway. Thus wasting time because they're going to actually burn through the fake health to get rid of you ASAP.

 

Also every so often they fail to burn through it and you escape, at least temporarily, with like1 hp and thus wasting still more time before you die.

 

If you've really needed to break earlier in the round just keep an eye on your whitebar or HP (if a hardstun chain will kill you before you can get EP off....just use it now) and if necessary hit EP right before it runs out so you can't fail to pop it while stunned. Medpac too if you need it. With no CDs up you will probably still die before it ends. The mentality that you should only pop it at really low health is valuable in regs and group ranked but in mosh pit 3 or 4 dps solo ranked it's not always the proper play and sometimes gets you killed in a hardstun before you can use it.

 

One thing good players do is think ahead regarding their breaker, resolve, and current HP. Can you actually survive an incoming hardstun or double hardstun? If not you should consider popping something now. Thinking this way is especially valuable in solo ranked because there's so much more focus than in 8v8 and so many matchups with 3 or 4 dps so you can get nuked really hard.

 

tl;dr your concern about EP not being usable while stunned is legit but if you play your cards right it shouldn't a problem

Edited May 4, 2018 by yellow_

[wadecounty]

I'm not going to say go tank or mara, but why not vengeance if you're insistent on DPS jugg? It's noticeably tankier than rage, and actually does something slightly different from mara, instead of just acting like a squishier rage mara.

 

As long as you're respectful of teammates trying to CC with your dot spread, you can probably get more mileage out of it in most games. You lose burst obviously, but you can gain significant survivability in some matchups if you can consistently get your charge off on cooldown, not to mention any stuns you can get your opponent to blow are game changers.

 

The nice thing about veng is all of its DR is additive, so you're at 50% DR after charge or with Endure Pain up, and 70% if both are active. The sucky thing is its even more neutered than rage is when being rooted since you're so dependent on charge and you don't have Obliterate or Intercede as additional breakers, but if you save Enrage and Mad Dash specifically to get extra charges off, you should be ok for the first 20-30 seconds.

 

Last point, if your team isn't going to coordinate CC, you can deal significantly more overall damage as vengeance with some dot spread, and in 4 dps games, it'll all add up since no dedicated healer.

 

I'm not saying rage doesn't have its advantages over veng, but since its just basically a crappier fury mara, why not try the spec that brings something slightly unique to the table? This is all in theory, I haven't played ranked in a few seasons, although when I did it was as vengeance mostly for solos. The biggest difference between then and now for that spec specifically is the 3 second ravage, which was obviously harder to pull off but gave you actual burst potential, current veng is very mediocre for burst and feels almost like playing hatred sin sometimes.

[KevinQCowart]

I think it is worth noting that you cannot dodge/parry while stunned. So saber ward may be more effective once you are white barred so you get the maximum defense from it.

 

I have not played Jugg DPS in solo ranked but I often play PT dps which is in a similar spot, they are both supposed to be heavy armor off-tank DPS, they are supposed to be designed to be frontline melee dps, no stealth, no offhealing, no teleports or kiting, they are supposed to jump in first and take the abuse. But sadly we are now in bizzaro world and Jugg/PT dps are the squishiest specs in the game.

 

My point is kiting and trying to play evasively on Jugg/PT doesn't work well. You'll do no damage and die soon anyway. Jump in first and pop DCDs, you'll soak up the nasty openers for your teammates, possibly gaggle the enemy team into a good cleave for your team, and ultimately die while doing as much dps before you go down.

 

This is all Jugg/PT can do now, its the only way the classes were designed to play, even though they still fail to accomplish their design goal.

[Lundorff]

I think you just need to pay attention to your resolve, be careful with your breaker, and use EP + medpac last. The reason being that doing this makes the whole "when the effect ends the health is lost" part of the CD irrelevant because in your typical solo ranked game you will just die before the end of it anyway. Thus wasting time because they're going to actually burn through the fake health to get rid of you ASAP.

 

Ah yes that makes sense. Okay I will try to use it last, but it is quite situational.

 

 

I'm not going to say go tank or mara, but why not vengeance if you're insistent on DPS jugg? It's noticeably tankier than rage, and actually does something slightly different from mara, instead of just acting like a squishier rage mara.

 

I tried going vengeance, but for some reason it simply doesn't click for me. I am probably rather single-target-focused e.g. tunnel vision and I found that I do more damage with rage and survive about as long as vengeance. Perhaps I will give it try again at some point.

 

 

My point is kiting and trying to play evasively on Jugg/PT doesn't work well. You'll do no damage and die soon anyway. Jump in first and pop DCDs, you'll soak up the nasty openers for your teammates, possibly gaggle the enemy team into a good cleave for your team, and ultimately die while doing as much dps before you go down.

 

Yes I completely agree, but the battle has a tendency to find me and I will have to focus what ever is hitting me - that means I can't always jump in our target. And chasing a running sniper on a jugg, while 2 maras is slapping my behind is a recipe for no damage and a quick death. In such a situation I am better of attacking secondary target and jump in on that.

[Alec_Fortescue]

Playing rage jug now, feels better than it used to.

 

If you want to kite and can't use raging burst remember that you can just SMASH for 10% damage reduction of you're attacked by ranged coward.

 

Idk about now stacking adrenal and saber ward. It's always been a thing to use both together but i'll give it a shot.

 

While not entirely viable, properly geared and specced rage jug is actually very FUN to play today. I am surprised.

 

Tbh the new heals actually do help but the key is to use ED when you're very low, borderline being one shotted if you want to avoid overhealing.

Edited May 4, 2018 by Alec_Fortescue

[MackPol]

I play vengeance so bit easier to survive but good points from yellow. Most important I found is to watch white bar and basically popping stuff as soon as it’s gone.

With vengeance you can leap in and have few secs of doing dmg, I normally then mad dash , many a time you can resist a stun coz ppl will wait till Unremmiting ends and insta stun, even if not then your bound to resist some big hitter at the start , then adrenal is a good option since you will get double stun and with adrenal and some teammates help (pushback, taunt, offheal) you can get away from it with decent amount of hp. If dropping fast then you can pop self heal.

I would try to keep reflect for ambush, HS and the like if possible and use saber ward more sparingly.

 

Then fake health and medpack at the end.

You can usually put out decent dmg by then

If you have clued teammates and used self heal early you might have a shot at kiting plus getting peels and making it to 2nd use. Happened to me a several times.

 

If you get to silver wear it with pride

[Lundorff]

If you want to kite and can't use raging burst remember that you can just SMASH for 10% damage reduction of you're attacked by ranged coward.

 

Tbh the new heals actually do help but the key is to use ED when you're very low, borderline being one shotted if you want to avoid overhealing.

 

Yes smash is definitely on the menu. I prefer to use it out of proc and reserve that for RB (unless people cluster).

 

And yes the ED 2.0 heals a lot, but waiting until <5-10% is rather dangerous

[Talon_strikes]

Here's a guide for rage jugg in SR:

 

Don't queue as jug dps.

This. Just don't que Jugg DPS in general tbh.

[Alec_Fortescue]

Yes smash is definitely on the menu. I prefer to use it out of proc and reserve that for RB (unless people cluster).

 

And yes the ED 2.0 heals a lot, but waiting until <5-10% is rather dangerous

 

ED still isn't a good ability for the current state of the game. I used it at 35% which should be more than enough but I still got globalled with raging bursting marauder and ambushing sniper.

[Lundorff]

ED still isn't a good ability for the current state of the game. I used it at 35% which should be more than enough but I still got globalled with raging bursting marauder and ambushing sniper.

 

Auch. They probably got lucky with some crits. I don't think I haven't been H2F with this new ED. That being said, it is certainly a short lived respite against people who knows how to focus. To make it truly useful, it should trigger some DR or maybe finish the cool down on reflect. Alas, I doubt BW is going to do anything positive with juggs in the foreseeable future.

[Alec_Fortescue]

Auch. They probably got lucky with some crits. I don't think I haven't been H2F with this new ED. That being said, it is certainly a short lived respite against people who knows how to focus. To make it truly useful, it should trigger some DR or maybe finish the cool down on reflect. Alas, I doubt BW is going to do anything positive with juggs in the foreseeable future.

 

Honestly, rage jug is actually fun but probably not viable with too many tryhards and fotm stacks queuing. =[ I had a blast, damage was massive and losses were not on me.

[ecstazypop]

Ma friend, rage jugg is all about the burst and saber reflect utility + mad dash.

Basically, I do this:

Watch enemy team, analyze their classes, like, for example, 3 maras 1 merc:

I tell my team to focus the merc after his dcd's are off, only because mara's jump to me and stun, I plan to use mad dash before stun, then bomb with burst/strike the merc, get stunlock by maras, watch the merc dps rotation, before heatseeker I insta unbreak and hit reflect, no matter if it's not white barred.

Jugg rage in 4-5 sec can do a ton of dps, take out 50% hp of enemy if well bursted, if u added up well timed reflect to that burst put the enemy on lower hp and force him to use dcd.

Again, assaulted by 2 oper, simply when I see both volatile substance on me, I let them still attack me 1 sec after so volatile can be activated then I insta unbreak if I'm stunned and hit reflect, while I'm bursting on our target and killing it, or getting them out of scene.

I once got 100k dps with saber reflect. But the reflected dps is irrelevant if u don't full power it with your dps after.

Most important dcd of dps jugg is through victory, mad dash utility, u need to place mad dash importantly in your battle, 35 sec cd.

So to understand, Fury is a balanced spec, fury is about constant dps, to hit numbers, but rage spec is about killing, burst down enemy before u die. Or at least try to die at same time.

And yes, Don't use saber ward before stun. While stunned defense is useless

And yes. Enter later into the battle, your purpouse is to kill fast. No matter when, but matters only who. And btw, how u enter battle? If I see one of my teammates go 50% hp I intercede him and aoe taunt, ofc it's irrelevant because I don't have to taunt to get others players attention to nuke a squishy class, but was protecting my groupmate. Make full use of your class, intercede is a powerful movement tool for rage jugg. Sometimes I just intercede and dash forward far from enemy, kiting ? Well, in regs, anyway.

And yes, best dcd of a rage jugg at the moment is Intimidating roar, the aoe cc. But that ironic isn't usable during the gravity vortex of mara. So u need to watch others class like a hawk

Edited May 7, 2018 by ecstazypop

[Seterade]

I got silver rating as a dps jugg before I stopped trying so hard, and like you I have an aversion to veng. That being said, veng is 10x more effective, has the same dps single target (about 8.5k single target both rage and veng, dummy parse, spec comparision with no damage adrenals used)

 

The utilitys I took, were rage gen from stun/incap and force leap cd reduction (skilfull) enrage purges movement, movement impair increases next rage ability by 10% (masterful) enrage def loses 30 sec on its cd, enrage def offers immunity to movement impair and increase movement speed by 50% (heroic) mad dash purges movement impair and lowers its cd, saber reflect lasts 2 seconds longer and force leap finishs the cd on disruption (legendary)

 

my rotation was enrage, force leap, raging burst, force scream, force crush, furious strike, obliterate (filler of vicious slash, saber throw, vicious throw or ripstole until raging burst came off cd) I only used smash sparingly (almost never)

 

My dcd rotation (bear in mind no dcd roation in pvp is exact, it is a too situational environment) after leap I used 5 sec reflect and ate the first hard stun, if my hp dropped to 50% I activated ED if it didnt get to 50% when hrd stun ended I actvated saber ward, usually I got stunned again which I then broke it, and proceeded to use dps rotation with saber ward up. and saberward fell I comboed EP with ED to make sure it didnt end in a global, my last resort at 10-20% hp I used an adrenal and hp pac for a last stand. if you cna I advise you to try to maddash/run away after ED falls to try to "mara stlth" in a corner and rebuild some dcd counts

 

if ED ended up being used in the first hard stun, you can bet this was going to be a short match, again you would try to use breaker and saberward in next hrd stun but since they roughed you to 50% in 4 seconds, its going to be a rough match

[Lundorff]

The utilitys I took, were rage gen from stun/incap and force leap cd reduction (skilfull) enrage purges movement, movement impair increases next rage ability by 10% (masterful) enrage def loses 30 sec on its cd, enrage def offers immunity to movement impair and increase movement speed by 50% (heroic) mad dash purges movement impair and lowers its cd, saber reflect lasts 2 seconds longer and force leap finishs the cd on disruption (legendary)

 

So basically as much movement as you possible could. Did you feel you could kite / escape better with all that? I am usually hunted down by maras rather easily, no matter how much movement stuff I take.

[Alec_Fortescue]

Stop beating a dead horse. You guys are still in denial phase.

[DenariusJay]

Trying to make a dps jugg/dps PT work in this current meta in solo ranked is a complete waste of time and an exercise in futility.

 

If you don't mind accepting your own delusions and do have time to waste, then go for it: play dps jugg in SR. BTW, I play a dps jugg in ranked and meet the aforementioned criteria. xD

[Lundorff]

Trying to make a dps jugg/dps PT work in this current meta in solo ranked is a complete waste of time and an exercise in futility.

 

If you don't mind accepting your own delusions and do have time to waste, then go for it: play dps jugg in SR. BTW, I play a dps jugg in ranked and meet the aforementioned criteria. xD

 

Hehe... I have no illusions about finding some magical way to make it truly viable. I am fully aware that only PT is worse in the current meta, but I will still try to learn as much as I can, which is the point of this thread. I just really like how it handles as I vastly prefer the more reactionary type of DCDs of juggs compare to mara. The only really annoying aspect is this troll telling me to go tank, but fortunately that can be ignored away.

[Seterade]

So basically as much movement as you possible could. Did you feel you could kite / escape better with all that? I am usually hunted down by maras rather easily, no matter how much movement stuff I take.

 

the kiting is a bonus, the utility uses are :

 

mad dash cd reducer: good for popping sins and ops out after stlth, and average stun immunity, great seperater from main fight for regen in hiding place.

 

enrage movement purge: purges E-net slow (does not allow for jumps during enet) A rule of thumb for enet slow, is if you use a utility movement purge that is not tied to a movement increase it will purge the 80% slow. ex: counter measure purge works on enet, ex 2: predation purge does not

 

as for 50% movement during ED you are one of the most immobile classes in this game, may as well increase it. also makes good for running away if they swap off of you

 

reduced cd on leap : there arent a lot of good utilitys in skillful, 10% hp on breaker and ravage root being the only other options. imo a movement increaser on jugg is better than 10% hp break, as for root ravage, you gain no dmg bonus or cd bonus on rage for ravage nor does it proc furious strike autocrit (unlike on mara). imo ravage root is a must for veng, but dont even bother rotating it on rage jugg. waste of a global cd

 

if maras are in queue, I dont advise queueing dps jugg, 2 preds equals global bait. try (like on dps pt) to only queue jugg when hls and tnk are queueing

Edited May 7, 2018 by Seterade