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How may we address 5.9 tank nerf for PvE aspects of the game that don't affect others


xordevoreaux

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I'm an advocate of waiting until a change drops before criticizing it. We don't know until we know. There are last-minute changes not mentioned in any of the dev notes that we're never privy to up to the point of the change's release that might surprise us. Usually there are, and rarely in a good way.

 

That said, I have a concern, and no matter how I approach the problem, I can't get around the idea that my tanks are in trouble with any amount of damage output nerf. So in addressing 5.9 now, I'm breaking my own rule, yes. You got me. Guilty as charged, and it won't stop me from pointing out to wait in the future for 5.9xx and 6.xx. Sue me.

 

But in a general sense, 5.9 dropping or not, any lowering of DPS for a tank is problematic in non-group situations.

So, from that sense, I have a question.

 

I play pure tanks.

All of the relevance of being a pure tank solely as a tank relates only to group situations: FP, OPS, PVP.

 

But when I'm off by myself on that same tank, doing dailies or whatever, I have no relevance to that group activity. It's just me versus the environment. I don't have to be tanky then.

 

I'm believing I should be able to play my tank class in all aspects of the game that my TK can, and not feel like I'm walking through glue to do it.

 

So I'm asking. Can we get around this?

 

Scenario:

1. 5.9 has dropped. I'm a pure tank. DPS was slow before and it's even slower now because my DPS abilities have been gutted in favor of higher aggro. What damage I can do under 5.9 is statistically meaningless.

 

2. I'm on Yavin doing the Yavin dailies on my now-nerfed tank. My damage output is laughable, even after I switch out of my pure tank gear that I use for operations into my PvE-only gear that's now dripping with crit and mastery and wet gremlins strapped to my back and whatever else I can think of to increase my damage output. In other words, I go skank when not in a group situation just to keep playing my class.

 

I'm not in a group.

I'm not participating in any activity involving anyone else.

I'm in a PvE activity. I can't emphasize that enough.

 

Result: I'm walking behind my DPS-mode influence 50 companion picking up loot because I've no damage output to speak of. The comp is doing all the work because, in all aspects of PvE, getting anything done with my DPS is definitely like walking through that glue.

 

Instead of nerfing skanks, all tanks (who play pure tanks when in a group situation) must swap to all-skank gear in PvE, just so getting through the Yavin dailies doesn't take 300% longer than it does on my TK.

What was meant to nerf skanks kills the efficacy of pure tanks in non-group (PvE) situations.

 

So.

 

Besides swapping to pure skank mode when in PvE, how does one play this class in all non-group situations without feeling like one's walking through glue to do it?

 

I have stopped gearing my tank until I see what happens in 5.9.

Maybe I should just follow my own advice and see, and I'm not at the point of hyperventilating about it, but I am definitely disappointed projecting how long it will take me solo to get through dps-necessary PvE areas that my other classes (even my healers) don't have that much problem with now soloing.

Edited by xordevoreaux
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Honestly for solo PvE i already just swap to vigi anyway. Why bother doing dailies as a tank unless you have friends?

 

That said, I seriously want to know where 2500-3k dps that uou get from my tank in tank gear is op. My dps puts out more than 3x that number.

Edited by KendraP
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Honestly for solo PvE i already just swap to vigi anyway. Why vither doing dailies as a tank unless you have friends?

 

That said, I seriously want to know where 2500-3k dps that uou get from my tank in tank gear is op. My dps puts out more than 3x that number.

 

Because I believe I should be able to play all aspects of this game just as I might with any other class, and those other classes can do it solo.

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Because I believe I should be able to play all aspects of this game just as I might with any other class, and those other classes can do it solo.

 

You can solo dailies on a healer. It just might take forever. Ask me how i know.

 

Again though, i want to know how 2500-3k is too much. Unless i do unusually low damage on my tank? I do have warding b rather than lethal mods. Which might change now.

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You can solo dailies on a healer. It just might take forever. Ask me how i know.

 

Again though, i want to know how 2500-3k is too much. Unless i do unusually low damage on my tank? I do have warding b rather than lethal mods. Which might change now.

 

Ask bioware your question that you've asked twice now about the 2500-3K. I can't answer you.

As far as doing solo dailies on a healer.... you just suggested the work-around is to mothball my tank whenever a PvE situation presents itself.

 

No thank you.

 

I was able to roll a tank toon at the beginning of the game, and nowhere on that character creation screen did I see any text that read "Please Note: This character class is intended for a specific group role and should not be used in PvE situations. Please use other classes in those cases."

Edited by xordevoreaux
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How about Powertech? If some PT ( the few left..) don't PvP at all, why should they be punished? Why should anyone accept being rejected in Group Finder 18 times in a row just because they are PT? This game shouldn't be like that, it shouldn't create situations where players are shunned.
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How about Powertech? If some PT ( the few left..) don't PvP at all, why should they be punished? Why should anyone accept being rejected in Group Finder 18 times in a row just because they are PT? This game shouldn't be like that, it shouldn't create situations where players are shunned.

 

Thank you (this is sarcasm) for derailing the point of this thread. We're talking about tanks in PvE situations, not group.

You want to start a thread about PTs being shunned from groups, do it.

Edited by xordevoreaux
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Flashpoints are PvE, so you are the one derailing the context, not me.

Take your shunned from groups issue elsewhere. It's not why I created this thread. Let's stay focused on why I posted it, which is to address PvE tank issues from aspects of the game that don't affect others --- that is, outside of groups.

Edited by xordevoreaux
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I mean I'm as pissed about the changes as anyone - see all my ranty posts about the issue. For guardians, the changes won't result in much. Hell I'll take a small damage nerf provided they actually do fix focused defense.

 

Shadows are hit a bit harder, but really you aren't bringing a shadow along to do damage.

 

PTs are the ones that got hit worst.

 

All that said, healing and tanking are specific group roles. It comes with the territory that less damage will be done by them.

 

Again though, these changes are among the three dumbest things I've seen on swtor. (Conquest and GC being the other 2)

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I mean I'm as pissed about the changes as anyone - see all my ranty posts about the issue. For guardians, the changes won't result in much. Hell I'll take a small damage nerf provided they actually do fix focused defense.

 

Shadows are hit a bit harder, but really you aren't bringing a shadow along to do damage.

 

My point is that I should be able to "bring along" all 100 of my characters into solo situations, regardless of their class, and not have to wallow for an hour through solo content doing Yavin dailies or other such because my DPS is now nearly non-existent.

 

My question, which no one has touched yet in a relevant way, is how to accommodate it. Not mothball the character when non-group PvE situations present themselves. I should be able to go from rescuing T7 in a cave on Tython to dailies on Yavin and do everything in between solo in a decent about of time that all my other classes do. I know it takes longer on my guardian now than any of my other classes. I get on Yavin on my guardian tank and I know it's going to take me longer. My sage healer gets done faster.

 

But after 5.9, I will reach my pain point on the lack of DPS in non-group PvE activities. It will just be too slow to progress solo where my other classes, even my healers, can do in decently enough time.

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Take your shunned from groups issue elsewhere. It's not why I created this thread. Let's stay focused on why I posted it, which is to address PvE tank issues from aspects of the game that don't affect others --- that is, outside of groups.

 

No need to be rude.You created this thread to what, state that flashpoints are NOT a PvE activity? A PT tank registering ONLY to FPs is a PvE tank, if you cannot understand that, then is not my problem.

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No need to be rude.You created this thread to what, state that flashpoints are NOT a PvE activity? A PT tank registering ONLY to FPs is a PvE tank, if you cannot understand that, then is not my problem.

 

This isn't the thread for hearing about you being shunned from groups, which is what I reacted to. Create a thread for that if you want.

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As someone who has played healers in solo pve (mainly my operatives) i seriously doubt its going faster than a tank. Unless i sneak around everything anyway.

 

That said, i agree this is one of the aspects they failed to think about when making these ridiculous changes.

 

I also doubt they will ever balance classes around time taken to solo content.

 

I hate to sound like an ******e, but as a tank main myself I acfept its going to take longer to kill things. Otherwise i swap to vigi for solo stuff.

 

Im more pissed that they did this without addressing why we are running skanks than I am that solo stuff will take longer. Fyi i have levelled about 7 guardian tanks solo in tank spec before I started running with guildies.

Edited by KendraP
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I can't help but feel that Bioware's declaration about nerfing skank tank DPS output is a solution in search of a problem.

 

Like, you know...an actual problem, not one of those 'the numbers in Column C look too high, lets make them lower, what could possibly go wrong?' problems that engineers walled off from contact with the problem by numerous layers of questionable metrics wind up fixating on.

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I don't care who says what about this post but...

 

PVE is breaking badly for me. Its going back to the early levels of the game that frankly I did not enjoy.

 

I personally like cruising my way through the story. I replay characters solely for the story experience and no other reason.

 

Lately with all of the class nerfs AND companion nerfs fights are becoming more difficult again and I am not afraid to say -- I despise this.

 

I play all bioware games in normal for my first run and then casual for all subsequent runs just for the story experience. Dying and restarting the same battles multiple times to get through them, just because I didn't press buttons in the exact right order, every run is not fun.

 

Stop screwing PVE for PVP find a way to seperate them.

 

Let us also choose for our companions easy, normal or hard. Not everyone wants everything to be hard.

Edited by Suzsi
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Xordevoreaux, what type of tank are you playing? The reason I ask: If you're running a jugg/guardian, the DPS drop is not going to be very significant. If you're running a sin/shadow, it's more significant. If you're running a PT/VG, it's a massive hammer blow.
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Xordevoreaux, what type of tank are you playing? The reason I ask: If you're running a jugg/guardian, the DPS drop is not going to be very significant. If you're running a sin/shadow, it's more significant. If you're running a PT/VG, it's a massive hammer blow.

 

Yeah i pointed this out already. Im guessing shadow since they highlighted that part of my post.

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Yeah i pointed this out already. Im guessing shadow since they highlighted that part of my post.

 

Ahhh. I missed that. If it were me, I'd honestly just spec DPS and roll with it - it's not like you need tank mitigation for solo content. If not that, then skank it up, set your companion to DPS, and open a beer.

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As someone who has played healers in solo pve (mainly my operatives) i seriously doubt its going faster than a tank. Unless i sneak around everything anyway.

 

That said, i agree this is one of the aspects they failed to think about when making these ridiculous changes.

 

I also doubt they will ever balance classes around time taken to solo content.

 

I hate to sound like an ******e, but as a tank main myself I acfept its going to take longer to kill things. Otherwise i swap to vigi for solo stuff.

 

Im more pissed that they did this without addressing why we are running skanks than I am that solo stuff will take longer. Fyi i have levelled about 7 guardian tanks solo in tank spec before I started running with guildies.

 

I've leveled tanks and healers of all classes except merc heals and healers are always slowest for me, even with lvl 50 comps doing most of the work as dps. It might be a perception thing, though. When I'm playing my pure tanks with much lower influence comps I feel like I'm accomplishing something more since there is more "action" involved with the combat than as the healers, which is mostly ranged and largely just waving your hand at stuff or pointing at things. Therefore it's like I feel the tank is faster because I'm having more fun soloing stuff that way. But I do grant that could largely be perception-based.

 

I've been thinking about what they could do to make soloing more balanced but the more I think about it the more complicated it all becomes as you try to balance the three phases (PvP, group PvE, Solo PvE). Perhaps the SIMPLEST solution would be to deactivate level-sync? Or give us the option? That would be amazing to me. What would be the arguments against it?

 

Unbalanced World PvP--well, WPvP is dead. I run almost all solo content through the PvP instances and they are like Outlaw's Den. You might see someone once in a great while, but they'll run away like a frightened squirrel at the first sign of red nameplate

 

People will solo the World Bosses and devalue their achievements--well, where were you when you were freely doing this before level-sync? Not doing it out of principle? They hold as much value as any achievements people got from OPS before 4.0--virtually none. Just because you got yours the easy way everyone else must eternally never have the same chance?

 

Those are really the only things I can see against the idea. I guess you'll get the fringe forum member who LIKES being pulled off their mounts as a level 70 by that low level street-rat on Nar Shaddaa, but we're one of the most powerful, well-known beings in the galaxy by the end of Chapter 3 (and certainly after KOTET)--it's stupid that such weak enemies can't just be ignored.

 

Anyway, it seems like this would sort of even the playing field for tanks, healers, and dps while soloing content without screwing with PvP and group PvE.

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I think this is relevant to the topic.

 

I recall (before they changed it in a patch) that 1 daily mission on Ziost where you have to interact with the crashed probe droids. That mission used to suck on a tank because you had to burn that last 20% or so of its health fast or it would self-destruct and you'd get nothing. The fix changed it so that didn't matter. But tanks had the hardest time getting through that burn phase in time since their dps was low, the fights lasted longer and the tanks were subjected to more stuns.

 

Lowering tank damage could result in similar "un-tank-friendly" issues for solo content.

 

So, how can we counter this? Maybe when an un-grouped tank guards his companion, he receives a damage buff (similar to the upcoming nerf) to NPCs. That way it wouldn't help groups or be an advantage in open world PvP where companions are permitted.

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I main a shadow tank for everything; PvP, PvE-group and PvE-solo, and i have to say I'm not worried about the changes. That is mostly because of my "Tank Philosophy" (That's what i call it), where I say: "A tank isn't meant to damage, is meant to survive".

 

I always run with a dps companion and I let them do all The job while I just take the aggro and damage, sure the fights take longer but as long as I can survive I'm fine with it. If for some reason I'm struggling with a boss then I use a healer companion.

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Xordevoreaux, what type of tank are you playing? The reason I ask: If you're running a jugg/guardian, the DPS drop is not going to be very significant. If you're running a sin/shadow, it's more significant. If you're running a PT/VG, it's a massive hammer blow.

 

I have, as pure tanks on the server I play the most, 1 Guardian, 1 Jugg, 1 Shadow, 1 Assassin at 70.

I play the Guardian the most. He was, in fact, the first toon I ever created in 2013.

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