Please bring back chapters for story content rather than flashpoints

[IoNonSoEVero]

I actually liked KotFE more than Shadow of Revan, for what that's worth. And then everybody complained and they rushed KotET like mad and it sucked.

 

I'm in the Shadow of Revan fan club (LOL) but I think it suffered from the same issue as KOTFE/KOTET which is that the end was poorly suited to a non-Force user. Yes, an agent or smuggler or whoeever could have easily helped Lana and Theron and gone up against the Nova Blades and the Revanites.

 

But you're going to tell me that Revan would not have made mincemeat out of a smuggler or trooper, someone with no Force abilities? And that Darth Marr, Satele Shan and Lana Beniko would have sent them up against Revan and stood on the periphery shouting "go, team!" Not so much IMHO.

 

That's also why IMHO KOTFE/KOTET don't work for a non-Force user. Sure, a non-Force user could have done the logistical stuff and recruited allies and been very motivating. But when it came to actually fighting Arcann, Vaylin and Valkorion, even with Valk's help, IMHO they would have been vaporized.

 

It's why I think two tracks would have worked better. They could have come up with a plausible way for the non-Force user to beat the Valk House of Pain, like maybe finding one of those ever so clever superweapons capable of annihilating Force users.

[Eshvara]

While I enjoyed chapters, I guess kotfe and kotet weren't that popular in terms of repeating them. So there probably isn't much point in having that format again.

[Aeneas_Falco]

So, I watched the interview by Vullk and what I heard them say was that they were going to do future story more like SoR than KotXX. SoR was my favorite expansion, and I like that it was a middle ground between chapters and the current story with fps model.

 

I liked the story heavy element of chapters, but I didn't like how it took me out of the broader game and auto chose my companions. I'd much prefer the middle ground that SoR, and (even though I hate it) Hutt Cartel were.

 

SoR is really what the dev team should be aiming at as far as expansions. It had a little bit for almost everyone. It had a lot of solo story content and even a unique class quest (please bring unique class content back), Flashpoints that can be done solo or grouped, two PVE daily areas, and two Operations. The only thing it was missing was new PVP content but considering how much it did have to offer, it's tough to complain.

 

The only downside in terms of story was that it was the first of the "one story fits all" approach. I'd much rather they returned to two separate faction stories even if it means less overall content per faction. A reason to play an alt isn't a bad thing.

Edited April 13, 2018 by Aeneas_Falco

[IanArgent]

The only downside in terms of story was that it was the first of the "one story fits all" approach. I'd much rather they returned to two separate faction stories even if it means less overall content per faction. A reason to play an alt isn't a bad thing.

 

I wouldn't mind if they put a small amount of "class specific" content into upcoming solo PvE material; though there's a lot of class-specific spread out through the KotFE and KotET material; particularly with the companion interactions. Because it's not bunched up the way the class-specific mission in SoR was, I think it gets missed when recounting.

 

However, I must note that SoR was not really the start of the "one story fits all" approach - almost every flashpoint is non-faction-specific, and of the post-launch content, it's Makeb that stands out as being the only "factionalized" content.

 

I suspect that further content will be "factionalized" the way Iokath was - the (remnants of the) Alliance will pick one side or another to aid in the Next Cold War. I hope they at least skin them differently, and maybe do some actual differing story depending on the side chosen.

 

As for material type - I hope they can FINALLY manage to release content for all 3 major types - solo PvE, group PvE, PvP, more or less simultaneously. But I hope the group PvE players will realize that (large) group PvE is the hardest content to design, develop, and balance, especially in a game with a wide skill band.

[Ciarayn]

While I enjoyed chapters, I guess kotfe and kotet weren't that popular in terms of repeating them. So there probably isn't much point in having that format again.

I think there should be repeatable content added, but I don't think that the number of people who repeat content on a single character should be the only measure of whether content is worthwhile to add. For me having new story content added regularly is what makes it worth subscribing, regardless of how many times I repeat it on a single character.

[RobertFKennedyUS]

I disagree. I love flash points. I have been running with a group of friends 4 hours a week to farm flash points. Have farmed Umbara, Copero, Rishi, and Blood Hunt consistently for 6 months now.

 

Flash points have great replay value. Story content does not.

[Ciarayn]

I disagree. I love flash points. I have been running with a group of friends 4 hours a week to farm flash points. Have farmed Umbara, Copero, Rishi, and Blood Hunt consistently for 6 months now.

 

Flash points have great replay value. Story content does not.

As I said in my previous post, I don't think replay value should be the only criteria for adding content to the game.

[IoNonSoEVero]

I disagree. I love flash points. I have been running with a group of friends 4 hours a week to farm flash points. Have farmed Umbara, Copero, Rishi, and Blood Hunt consistently for 6 months now.

 

Flash points have great replay value. Story content does not.

 

Flashpoints have great replay value if you're into grinding and grouping with friends. That's only one play style. I'm not here for that, and it's not how the story should be delivered.

[DWho]

I disagree. I love flash points. I have been running with a group of friends 4 hours a week to farm flash points. Have farmed Umbara, Copero, Rishi, and Blood Hunt consistently for 6 months now.

 

Flash points have great replay value. Story content does not.

 

Give that man a prize. He has successfully identified why current "replayable" content is replayed, farming rewards. If the "story" content had the same rewards (like chapters that are as long as flashpoints having equivalent rewards to the flashpoints) people would replay those as well. Making the story content actually replayable without having to start a new toon would help also.

[Jdast]

I have largely avoided this thread because I've discussed this with DWho and Ion over the past 18 months.

 

So far, the only argument that is persuasive is from Ion, which is that there are no -- for lack of better term -- save points.

 

DWho, with respect (that's not sarcasm), there is a consistent theme in your posts...You keep comparing the similarity between FPs and Chapters. That fundamentally undermines your argument. What I read your argument to mean is that put rewards at end of Chapters so people will be encouraged to group to do that content. That's no different than a FP.

 

Point being: There is a way to craft story in Flashpoints and Chapters. The last two flashpoints are outliers, because both were specific companion story driven. To be fair, the introduction of Temple was somewhat forced, but for Crisis on Umbara it made sense. Why BW made that non-repeatable escapes me.

 

Bottom line: I am not convinced that chapters are inherently a better vehicle to deliver story. With that said, I too, like Ion, was a bit taken aback that the 5.9 Nathema FP is an hour long. That's something I can handle (I always dim the lights and open a good bottle of wine before venturing into a new FP), but I understand Ion's concern.

 

Here's to hoping that they go back to SoR model, which I thought was perfect. Relatively short FPs that advanced the story, were replayable for farming / grinding.

 

TL-DR: I have yet to hear a persuasive argument that FP's can't deliver story. To the extent FP's encourage replayability -- it's a win- win.

 

Dasty

Edited April 14, 2018 by Jdast

[DefenderTwo]

What about adding the 'story' version of the flashpoints to the Chapter menu? Then you can play it again with all the cutscenes?

[kodrac]

the 5.9 Nathema FP is an hour long.

 

An hour long trash clear does not bode well for story or repetition.

[DefenderTwo]

An hour long trash clear does not bode well for story or repetition.

 

The Nathema flashpoint is an hour long?!

[Jdast]

The Nathema flashpoint is an hour long?!

 

This is pure hearsay, but it's from a reliable source...Vulkk.

 

"The whole experience including all cinematics, the gameplay inside the Flashpoint itself and all that is expected to take about an hour, maybe a little longer."

 

https://vulkk.com/2018/04/07/swtor-5-9-what-we-know-about-the-nathema-flashpoint/

 

Hugs,

 

Dasty

[Eshvara]

I think there should be repeatable content added, but I don't think that the number of people who repeat content on a single character should be the only measure of whether content is worthwhile to add. For me having new story content added regularly is what makes it worth subscribing, regardless of how many times I repeat it on a single character.

 

It's just that, if it costs more to add chapters, than lets say a flashpoint like we know them, yet a lot of people don't repeat them regularly, what's the point in investing in something most people don't enjoy or bother with?

It's like me having a mobile phone plan of 50$ every month, while I make twelve 5 minute calls a year. Don't get me wrong though, I did enjoy the repeatable chapters, even though I've only replayed a few, and some no more than the first run. There's just no real incentive for me at least to replay them. Even on a higher difficulty, it's not all that fun. (imo)

But yeah, I am happy I can always go back and replay whenever I'd like to, so I do understand the desire of it. I just don't think it's in BW's best benefit to go back to that.

Edited April 14, 2018 by Eshvara

[Ciarayn]

It's just that, if it costs more to add chapters, than lets say a flashpoint like we know them, yet a lot of people don't repeat them regularly, what's the point in investing in something most people don't enjoy or bother with?

It's like me having a mobile phone plan of 50$ every month, while I make twelve 5 minute calls a year. Don't get me wrong though, I did enjoy the repeatable chapters, even though I've only replayed a few, and some no more than the first run. There's just no real incentive for me at least to replay them. Even on a higher difficulty, it's not all that fun. (imo)

But yeah, I am happy I can always go back and replay whenever I'd like to, so I do understand the desire of it. I just don't think it's in BW's best benefit to go back to that.

Chapters definitely cost more than adding 1 hour of content in 5 months , but I don't think it is necessarily accurate to say most people didn't enjoy the format just because they didn't repeat them as much as other content. For the phone comparison that is pretty much how I feel about the flashpoints they have been adding recently, but it is not how I felt about the chapters. I felt like the chapters gave a reason to subscribe and then I could do other things such as dailies, heroics, etc., for rewards if I felt like it. Whereas the flashpoints are not much of a reason for me to subscribe.

[Eshvara]

Chapters definitely cost more than adding 1 hour of content in 5 months , but I don't think it is necessarily accurate to say most people didn't enjoy the format just because they didn't repeat them as much as other content. For the phone comparison that is pretty much how I feel about the flashpoints they have been adding recently, but it is not how I felt about the chapters. I felt like the chapters gave a reason to subscribe and then I could do other things such as dailies, heroics, etc., for rewards if I felt like it. Whereas the flashpoints are not much of a reason for me to subscribe.

 

I guess in the end I don't really know the "facts" as of why they didn't continue the chapter format. My best guess is just that not enough people participated in it. Not saying that those who did don't matter however. But to them, it may have just been the minority they did not feel like catering to.

But that's just what I think, not a fact!

 

If it is indeed how I say it is, maybe before scrapping it they should have checked the incentive for the repeatable chapters. Even on a higher difficulty, the rewards are pretty poor. Now good content is a reward in itself, but yeahhh, some bragging rights wouldn't hurt. People like that kinda thing. A special item, a title, lord knows what, something!

20 cartel coins and some CXP isn't really something worth working your buttocks off.

Edited April 14, 2018 by Eshvara

[DWho]

I have largely avoided this thread because I've discussed this with DWho and Ion over the past 18 months.

 

So far, the only argument that is persuasive is from Ion, which is that there are no -- for lack of better term -- save points.

 

DWho, with respect (that's not sarcasm), there is a consistent theme in your posts...You keep comparing the similarity between FPs and Chapters. That fundamentally undermines your argument. What I read your argument to mean is that put rewards at end of Chapters so people will be encouraged to group to do that content. That's no different than a FP.

 

Point being: There is a way to craft story in Flashpoints and Chapters. The last two flashpoints are outliers, because both were specific companion story driven. To be fair, the introduction of Temple was somewhat forced, but for Crisis on Umbara it made sense. Why BW made that non-repeatable escapes me.

 

Bottom line: I am not convinced that chapters are inherently a better vehicle to deliver story. With that said, I too, like Ion, was a bit taken aback that the 5.9 Nathema FP is an hour long. That's something I can handle (I always dim the lights and open a good bottle of wine before venturing into a new FP), but I understand Ion's concern.

 

Here's to hoping that they go back to SoR model, which I thought was perfect. Relatively short FPs that advanced the story, were replayable for farming / grinding.

 

TL-DR: I have yet to hear a persuasive argument that FP's can't deliver story. To the extent FP's encourage replayability -- it's a win- win.

 

Dasty

 

You are conflating two separate sets of comments.

 

The first is about Chapter and Flashpoint design, which is basically the same. Both have only one correct way to proceed and you have no choice but to proceed through those events in the manner dictated (for flashpoints, you can't even pick it up later but must restart it - as Ion said). The issue with making a "story flashpoint" is that it is designed for four players and then the damage nerfed to allow a single player to succeed at it but taking 4 times as long as a group due to bosses having health designed to slow down a group of four not one.

 

The second was about why people repeat flashpoints more than they repeat chapters. That is entirely a rewards issue. While there are some people who repeat flashpoints for the "enjoyment" most people are repeating them exclusively for the rewards (aka. farming, which is why groupfinder flashpoints nets you almost exclusively Hammer Station - the shortest and most rewarding flashpoint currently for the time invested). Nothing wrong with that but making a comparison of two activities that have vastly different rewards and saying that one is repeated because it is more "replayable" while the other is not even though they are almost identical except for the rewards is nonsense.

[Deathrobotmonkey]

The chapter format may cost more to produce but if you invest time and money into a good story presented well you may make it back in new players.

 

The best part of the game is the base game. Unique stories, choices that matter, and a world that changes with you. Nowadays it seems like nothing matters and replaying on other roles is pointless since we all end up at the same place in the end with characters written out to avoid diverging story lines.

 

*sigh* the more I think about it the sadder I get because I know the individual stories are never coming back. It’s like watching mass effect devolve into andromeda. ‘Scuse my while I go be emo about this.

[Costello]

Flashpoint design has to follow a set pattern.

 

It has to be 100% instanced as it will be built to accommodate 4 man groups so having those mobs roaming around in open world wouldn't work.

 

They always have some trash followed by a boss, followed by some more trash and then a boss etc etc. As much as possible it follows a single track so that your group can't skip large amounts of the content.

 

They are almost always content first, story second. Where they bolt story and cut scenes around the boss fights, so that when those story elements are removed it still makes sense. Where as the chapters can have the action revolve around the story as it forms an integral part of the narrative.

 

Also to knock the repay-ability of the kotfe and kotet through chapters as lacking replay-ability would only work if the rewards for time spent were the same and people didn't have to take each of their alts through the exact same story. There is only so many times you can watch Arcann rant about his daddy or Vaylin rant about her Mummy and Valkorian stop time to talk rubbish. Had the story been better, more in depth and more personalised then it would have added a lot more replay-ability, so the concept of chapters shouldn't be damned because the first new monthly released had been chapter 10 which was following Firebrand round aimlessly, the next month was following Major Paws around aimlessly and then the third month was sitting in a field getting ***** slapped by Valkorian irrespective of how the fight against him went.

[IoNonSoEVero]

Costello's point is good. There are people who will make numerous alts in the same class so they can replay the class stories and SoR again and again. People can and do repeat content they like and enjoy playing. But in KOTFE and KOTET, there are a lot of chapters with issues:

 

- People don't like having to spend an entire chapter with Kaliyo or Jorgan.

- The chapters with the walker segments. Ugh. I won't play those chapters again because those segments are so painful.

- The GEMINI chapter is just painful to get through with some of the mechanics

- I LOVE KOTET 6 but a lot of people don't like doing a chapter that is mostly a puzzle

- SOme of the chapters are buggy or laggy. I never replay KOTET 9 because of the lag on it.

- The KOTFE romances are bugged in that if you replay the chapters before KOTET 10 it acts as though you're not in a romance. So if you want to replay your romance content again it's not there.

- Lots of cut scenes that don't even have our character in them. As said above, I really don't care about listening to the drama and whining over at Valkorion's House of Pain.

 

That doesn't mean people won't repeat chapters they like. It means that a lot of THESE chapters aren't fun enough to play again.

 

In contrast I replay KOTET 5 a lot because of the robot segment, KOTET 6 and7 because they're fun for me, and KOTFE 13 because it is also pretty enjoyable with Vette and Gault.

 

If SoR or the class stories were repeatable I think we'd see people lining up for them.

Edited April 15, 2018 by IoNonSoEVero

[Estelindis]

People don't like having to spend an entire chapter with Kaliyo or Jorgan.

I love spending an entire chapter with Jorgan...

[IoNonSoEVero]

I love spending an entire chapter with Jorgan...

 

As someone who usually plays Imperial characters it was really interesting and fun for me to spend that chapter with a Republic companion, and like Jorgan. I didn't mean to sound like I was throwing shade on him specifically but I think having to spend entire chapters with one comp is something people have complained about.

[Eshvara]

You can't really guess which chapters are fun for people! I like rescuing Arcann in kotet chapter 1! But I dislike the one with Scorpio or the odessen wilds. Awful!

[IoNonSoEVero]

You can't really guess which chapters are fun for people! I like rescuing Arcann in kotet chapter 1! But I dislike the one with Scorpio or the odessen wilds. Awful!

 

Overall no, but there seem to be a few things that get invoked again and again when people talk about dislikes - the Kaliyo chapter and walkers seem to be mentioned a lot