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I have a bad feeling about these tank changes...(Han Solo voice) -my ideas are better


FourPawnBenoni

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I pretty much knew that they would mess it up (as I predicted here: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=946247), because the problem isn't the damage output (since the concern is skank tanks in pvp, so I don't believe the claim about them "overperforming" since their damage has been fairly consistent since 2.0. This is more likely them trying to justify themselves for their bad decisions) simply nerfing damage isn't a good solution.

 

Nerfing damage & increasing threat is a lazy solution that creates the following problems:

 

- More difficulty in clearing solo content

- More difficulty in killing group content (since the nerfs will affect the pve tanks that are wearing proper tank gear) because boss health takes into account current tank dps)

- In PVP tanks will become useless node defenders, because they have the same damage mitigation but worse damage...granted tanks were never the best 1v1 specs, but they could at least be competitve in certain situations.

 

To address the issues a more sophisticated adjustment was needed, yet would require very little dev resources. I thought about offering this solution earlier but wanted to see what kind of failure EA would offer first:

 

- Remove the base 20% shield chance from wearing a shield. Create a bell curve where shield chance requires the shield stats that gets you to the range needed currently in pve just by putting in the proper points. So a tank that normally puts in X points to get to X shield chance will still be able to reach that number because of reduced diminishing returns. This would make the skank tanks more squishy when they wear all dps gear.

 

- Tie in defense cooldowns to be equal to defensive stats. For example, right now Immortal spec ability Invincible reduces all damage by 40%. Instead, simply reduce all damage equal to shield chance % .

 

- Allow critical damage the chance to be shielded.

 

- Increase defensive stat % to dodge attack more useful against player opponents

 

Now, it doesn't have to be exactly like this, but this is the kind of thinking that was needed to make a better solution. It would address these issues, which is really what is needed:

 

- Makes it much more risky to "skank tank" by being more squishy

- Conversely makes investing in defensive stats to be useful in pvp

- Allows solo & group PVE experience to remain unchanged

- Offers a more natural choice for a player to choose between doing better damage or having a real chance to be a defensive tank and sacrificing that damage

 

Caution would have to be used to make sure that you weren't creating tanks that could survive forever and stall node attacks unfairly, so tuning would be needed...which brings me back to my original point that I posted: PTS MUST BE USED TO PROPERLY ASSESS PVP BALANCE

Edited by FourPawnBenoni
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To address the issues a more sophisticated adjustment was needed, yet would require very little dev resources. I thought about offering this solution earlier but wanted to see what kind of failure EA would offer first:

 

- Remove the base 20% shield chance from wearing a shield. Create a bell curve where shield chance requires the shield stats that gets you to the range needed currently in pve just by putting in the proper points. So a tank that normally puts in X points to get to X shield chance will still be able to reach that number because of reduced diminishing returns. This would make the skank tanks more squishy when they wear all dps gear.

 

- Tie in defense cooldowns to be equal to defensive stats. For example, right now Immortal spec ability Invincible reduces all damage by 40%. Instead, simply reduce all damage equal to shield chance % .

 

- Allow critical damage the chance to be shielded.

 

- Increase defensive stat usefulness against player opponents

 

Now, it doesn't have to be exactly like this, but this is the kind of thinking that was needed to make a better solution. It would address these issues, which is really what is needed:

 

- Makes it much more risky to "skank tank" by being more squishy

- Conversely makes investing in defensive stats to be useful in pvp

- Allows solo & group PVE experience to remain unchanged

- Offers a more natural choice for a player to choose between doing better damage or having a real chance to be a defensive tank and sacrificing that damage

 

Caution would have to be used to make sure that you weren't creating tanks that could survive forever and stall node attacks unfairly, so tuning would be needed...which brings me back to my original point that I posted: PTS MUST BE USED TO PROPERLY ASSESS PVP BALANCE

I REALLY like these suggestions. That is exactly what they needed to do.

 

But we know Bioware won't go back on this...they come up with terrible ideas based on how easy they are to address a singular issue without thinking anything through...expect "Tactical" Operations next...nobody will want to be a tank now.

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This is what I suggested in another thread. Essentially they need to make Defense a viable stat to be sought after. At the same level that Power is valuable to DPS and Heals. This way there is much more incentive for tanks to equip defense mods and enhancements, which will not only lower their DPS output, but also allow them to effectively tank better.
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...But we know Bioware won't go back on this...they come up with terrible ideas based on how easy they are to address a singular issue without thinking anything through...expect "Tactical" Operations next...nobody will want to be a tank now.

 

Yep, they know best, or at least the have convinced themselves they do. They will push this through no matter how much opposition or pain this causes to PVE players, and it will take months for them to proceed with their usual band aid approach...

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- Makes it much more risky to "skank tank" by being more squishy

 

While this I can get behind, this still doesn't address the skank tanks and the reason for them nerfing tank damage. I, for one, do not buy their reasoning for this, "tank damage over performing." The stated they had plans to 'fix' the skank tanks. Nerfing damage, is it. The easy way out.

 

To go along with your suggests, they need to revert back to the original tank stance for all classes with a tank choice. In this stance, all non-tank modifications to armor including implants, relics, and so forth, should be locked out from us while in tank stance, this includes non-shield off-hands since tank stance requires a shield. This keeps players from using those mods that do not carry any tank stats. This is the proper way to put a stop to skank tanks, period.

 

What they've done is not a fix, not even a band-aid. It is their way of 'making skank tanks less attractive at the expense of pure tank players.' They took the easy road instead of doing what was necessary to address the problem. In the end, they fixed nothing.

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Seriously though, did anyone expect this crew to do anything "in depth"? When's the last time they didn't take the lazy way out?

 

Hm...let's see...they set the standard of operation at update 1.2. Um no, they've always chose the path of least resistance (read: easy way out).

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While this I can get behind, this still doesn't address the skank tanks and the reason for them nerfing tank damage. I, for one, do not buy their reasoning for this, "tank damage over performing." The stated they had plans to 'fix' the skank tanks. Nerfing damage, is it. The easy way out.

 

To go along with your suggests, they need to revert back to the original tank stance for all classes with a tank choice. In this stance, all non-tank modifications to armor including implants, relics, and so forth, should be locked out from us while in tank stance, this includes non-shield off-hands since tank stance requires a shield. This keeps players from using those mods that do not carry any tank stats. This is the proper way to put a stop to skank tanks, period.

 

What they've done is not a fix, not even a band-aid. It is their way of 'making skank tanks less attractive at the expense of pure tank players.' They took the easy road instead of doing what was necessary to address the problem. In the end, they fixed nothing.

 

This isn't necessarily a bad idea, but I want to make a few points because my post does in fact have fixes that specifically does address the skank tanks and the reason for nerfing them. Here is my logic broken down a little more clearly:

 

1.) A "tank" in dps gear isn't really "overperforming". Look at it as another dps. Them doing damage, in and of itself, isn't a problem - it's what you'd expect from a dps. The issue, is that while they do good damage they also have better defensive cooldowns and mitigation than dps IN PVP. This isn't even an issue in PVE Operations because wearing only DPS gear isn't an option, they would get melted by the boss.

 

2.) That being said, this is strictly a PVP problem, and never would have been nerfed if not for the complaining they have caused in PVP. This is why my post does in fact issue the reason they are nerfing the tank damage. People in PVP are tired of them being difficult to kill while doing great damage.

 

3.) Think about a dps putting a guard on a healer...yes, it can be annoying sometimes, but it doesn't get nearly the complaints that a skank tank does because the dps is much, much harder for the healer to keep alive

 

4.) My suggestions work on addressing the specific issue because the issue isn't about damage (see #3) it's about survivability. My fix is that we are turning the dps geared "tank" more comparable to a dps spec with guard which will make their healer have to work harder to keep alive

 

5.) First, we remove the base line 20% shield chance they get. If they want shield chance they have to gear for it (thus sacrificing dps stats - see my OP).

 

6.) Next we tie in defensive cool downs to defensive stats (see OP for example)

 

7.) Next we actually make being a tank actually perform and feel like a tank! (Novel idea, right?) We do this by allowing players that invest in defensive stats to perform better defensively. I offered a few suggestions, such as being able to shield critical attacks, improving the defense stat's ability to dodge players attacks, etc.

 

8.) What we're left with is an untouched PVE experience for tank geared players. Players that are geared for PVE tanking will perform EXACTLY the same way. They will still contribute the same dps towards the bosses while wearing tank gear and when doing solo content can gear for dps and clear content nearly the same way they are used to. I fully believe that PVE tanks will endorse having no changes to their damage and will support my plan.

 

9.) The changes only affect PVP, but it gives a player a choice between playing the spec they enjoy offensively (with significantly less defensive toughness) or defensively (with meaningful defensive advantages to make up for the loss of dps). As I mentioned, a little fine tuning would be needed but its a lot better than the sledgehammer they applied.

 

Everyone wins in this scenario. The plan EA chose, is lazy and it has angered both the PVP base and the PVE base...unfortunately, getting everyone upset is what they are best at because they won't test their ideas on the PTS and get back meaningful data and advice from people that are serious about the game.

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The issue is, and always will be, how do you nerf/buff one side of the game without screwing up something on the other side?

 

As much discussion and thought that's been put into the Skank problem over the years (yes, it's been a problem for years), I think the best solution would have been for them to add mod tags that would allow them to enforce mod synergy. In other words, if you're using a tank spec with tank armorings, you'd only be allowed to slot tank mods (hilts, barrels, modifications, enhancements, augments). Same for DPS specs, armorings, and mods. This would effectively prevent tanks from Skanking, and would isolate the DPS problems to pure tanks, which would be much easier for them to address without impacting PvE tanks so dramatically.

 

As for buffing tanks stats in PvP, they would have to be very, very careful because they could easily break the PvP meta and simultaneously trivialize PvE. With even a small buff, tanking in PvE could become trivial even on MM/NM content, and tanks could easily become nearly invincible in PvP (don't forget to think of this in the context of healer support).

 

But going back to the suggestion in my first paragraph, had they taken the mod synergy enforcement approach, they wouldn't have needed to nerf tank DPS so drastically across the board because Skanking would be impossible. I'm assuming they went with the easier (some would say lazier) approach because of their limited resources. In the end, I think they created more work for themselves because I expect they'll need to do some adjustments after the fact.

Edited by Mournblood
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1.) A "tank" in dps gear isn't really "overperforming".

 

You see, the issue is over performance according to Eric. The pure tank may not be doing so; however, all the Skanks in the tank stance in PVP or PVE are over performing according to their metrics. I'm willing to bet that they cannot separate the Tanks from the Skanks in their 'tank performance metric.' Therefore, the data they are receiving is a false positive reflecting this performance since the Skanks are in tank stance. This skewed their data. Metrics data is no different that research data gathered through empirical gathering methods. If there is not a definitive method detailing every observable point of data they want collected, the information gathered can be erroneous and the results faulty.

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Yup! 5.9 actually has some Utility changes for various classes and some changes planned to address "skank tanks" in PvP. We will share details on that closer to 5.8 going out the door.

 

-eric

 

 

changes planned to address "skank tanks" in PvP. .

 

-eric

 

PvP

 

-eric

 

 

Don't fall for this Jedi Mind trick:

 

when comparing all tanks (regardless of gear) against the DPS targets we outlined last year, tanks are doing more damage than intended.

 

-eric

 

 

 

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Don't fall for this Jedi Mind trick:

 

Second, when comparing all tanks (regardless of gear) against the DPS targets we outlined last year, tanks are doing more damage than intended.

 

This statement just proved my premise that they did not separate the skank tanks from the tank using gear selection as part of the data gathering.

 

To Eric & Keith: Your data is faulty for not using proper data collection to analyze the damage from the tank class. You group skanks in with pure tanks. This is bad information you're using that influenced your decision-making process. Even my first year business students know better than collecting data in such a manner.

 

So, you make a decision on faulty data that gave you false positive results. Essentially, you have used this data to support your decision-making process and nerf the tank completely. This erroneous results gives you an out so you don't have to address separating Skank tanks from Pure tanks.

 

In other words, you abrogated your duties and responsibilities to take a short cut. Just like the developers did with Conquest. It is amazing that BWA is still in operation after making so many erroneous decisions based on bad data. In my learned and professional opinion, your entire decision-making process, data collection, and data analysis is suspect and unreliable.

 

I stated a couple of weeks ago BWA lacked a true operations manager with the skill and experience to ensure the decision-making process for this company does not exist. This just proves me correct. And if you do have an OM, you best let them go because they do not know what they are doing in respect to how you are operating now. A OM with ethics and commitment to seeing a process done correctly, would not have allowed the decision-making process for tank/skanks proceed with such erroneous data.

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