Shroud of memory

[IanArgent]

SWTOR has all that information and they make their decisions based on that information.

 

I can't say what you've done, but I preordered the game and have been subbed the whole time. So put me down as an "old player" that has supported the game loyally. I'm still here.

 

I've been playing since shortly before the GSF sub rewards hit, I preordered to get them (IIRC, it's been a few years), and have maintained an active sub since then. I'm probably past my own longevity estimate, but since I'm a casual player (an hour or two some weeknights, maybe a few hours at a stretch on a weekend day) who still has content in the game that I've never seen, I'm not burnt out and am still more than willing to sub.

 

And when it comes to the subscribers for the people which are unaware of that serious companies don't make an distinction between them because as much as its important for them to keep the old subscribers its also to gain the new ones and to keep them to, and because of that they usually treat all equally and try to make the majority of them happy.

 

If there are more veterans than new players, the game is dying. This is "Conventional Wisdom" from the days of tabletop gaming, and has held true as long as I've been alive, much less gaming as a hobby. This is because gaming is a subset of hobbies, for which it's even more true. It's just that gaming companies have more control about their product's accessibility than do non-gaming hobby companies.

 

I mean, you don't gratuitously stick one in the eye of the veterans Just Because - if nothing else, because you don't want to shorten their half-life without benefit. But if the decision is "more new players" vs "shorter half-life," it comes down to "how many" vs "how much shorter" and the thumb is on the scales of the new players.

 

It's possible to get this math wrong - WotC did with the Fourth Edition of D&D, which was set up for new players first, and turned out to torque off enough of their base that it failed and was replaced relatively rapidly. But their 5E is tuned more for the new player than the grognard.

 

I'm not saying veterans are without value, or that new players are absolutely more valuable. I'm saying new players are relatively more valuable, and there's a thumb on the scales that means that any choice of trade-off between the two is weighted towards the new players. Hence, bog-simple gameplay in the "mandatory" portion of the game, and, eventually, recycling and re-release of material. Case in point, the GSF reward speeder and the "new and improved" Party Jawa, and in general, that the "anniversary vendors" have had previous years contents and you can now get the cosmetic awards from previous events with "enough" work.

 

For a game that prides itself on "story," locking "story" out from new players was an outrageous mistake, one that they should correct after a discreet period of time.

[BRKMSN]

I have to say that I completely disagree with the above premise. One of the things that would entice new players to an older MMORPG is a lively population of players. A strong "veteran" presence would further the idea that if one subs, it's worth it to stay a sub.

 

I would be willing to bet that if the "half life" for an "old" player is X months that the "half life" for a "new" player would be < X months.

 

I appreciate your taking the time to develop a new argument, but I'm just not buying it. I mentioned it earlier and I'll repeat it again. The "founder" subs that are still here are likely here because Star Wars and not because of MMORPG. There are enough (Star Wars fans) to keep this game moving forward until a new Star Wars game replaces it. Since EA currently has the license, there is no immediate replacement at this time. New players could have many reasons for being new players, but if they are Star Wars fans, they should have known about this game 6 years ago. So there is no "good business model" to replace hard core fans with casual fans.

 

Hence: Loyalty Rewards.

[IanArgent]

I'm not developing a new theory - I'm passing on the theories of people who have been in the business of making games since about as long as I've been alive.

 

I keep saying, veterans are not worthless; as you say, they form the "lively player base." What I am saying is that there is a heavy presumption towards new blood when it comes to making any "trade-off" decision.

 

In the case of this thread, there is going to be a point at which the number of people BW ticks off by making Shroud Of Memory available to more players is less than the number of people made happy by it. I don't know when that is. I personally think that point is already past for Shroud of Memory, given the importance of story to the image of SWTOR, but I don't have access to the necessary facts to make that call.

 

Nobody seems to complain that a month's sub gets you access to all the pre-Knight's content "in perpetuity" despite that being "premium content" when it launched. Eventually, and probably sooner than you might think, the same is going to go for Shroud of Memory. Whether the cosmetic unlock (ZeeOh, like every other post-Knights companion, is a cosmetic unlock) might or might not be included, but I think it'd be a little chintzy not to include her.

[deserttfoxx]

I get it, subscribers should be rewarded for loyalty.

 

i quit the game 4 years ago, i wasnt keeping tabs on every expansion and all the mini events going on so missing out on cosmetic companions like niko ocar and shae are understandable. Hell i came back in march 2 days after the event for returning players to get a free month if they return and i missed that and found that to be acceptable.

 

But to be sold on coming back to experience the two new storylines, then to be told i cant actually finish it because i wasnt here comes off as a bait and switch, how is it people cant see that?

 

You wont even sell me the last chapter, i gotta watch it on youtube? Just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. There are otherways to reward veterns, but in a story based game that sells players on experience a great story, locking story behind subscriber veteran rewards is just silly.

 

When a returning player decides whether or not to keep subbing to an old mmo, their is an inheriant pro and con list created. This is just one thing that will be moved into the con list of keeping sub, right beside the poor group finder.

Edited March 19, 2018 by deserttfoxx

[Lunablade]

There are enough (Star Wars fans) to keep this game moving forward until a new Star Wars game replaces it. Since EA currently has the license, there is no immediate replacement at this time.

 

And yet we have here content draughts because of obvious underfunding and big server merges which happened recently. Do you really think how that's a good way of moving forward ? And you want to say what, how gaining more money and more new customers is not important for the game, and how old customers should be treated better than the new ones ?

 

Let me make an comparison how things work in the practice with the similiar subject, Netflix and HBO are serious companies and when you become their customer you can unlock any of their programs as long as you pay for it and there is nothing on that field that they offer only just to old customers but not to the new ones. Sure sometimes they have also limited promotions and you can get some things cheaper during that period and even a better deal for packages but that doesn't mean that any object of that offer would not be obtainable again for the customers which will make a deal with them later.

 

In the same way I think how HK was actually offered here, there never was an official offer from the BW which would made that product exclusive and entire deal legally binding in that way and that's the reason why we saw even here on the forums some devs which implied recently how they are considering the possibility of offering him again, but instead it was an exclusive promotion for which you had to meet certain requirements to obtain him in the period in which he was offered.

Edited March 19, 2018 by Lunablade

[Lunablade]

You're disappointed in the community, so you name-call and belittle. You feel they are selfish but don't feel that coveting is also selfishness.

 

What has the game done to get new subs and keep old ones?

New subs: Waived initial game purchase, waived X-pack costs, streamlined the playing experience, etc.

Old Subs: Loyalty rewards

 

Excuse me ? For one I haven't named anyone here precisely but was talking in general. For the other I'm not against the practice of giving the rewards to the people which sub but in the same practice how that's done in other MMOS in which people are rewarded for that with cosmetic items like mounts/pets/armors , and neither I'm against of the possibility that some of the items which were obtainable before which other people wish to get and for which there is a demand become obtainable again under the same conditions like some other people are here. My POV on that is that even if other people would get an option to obtain some of the items I do have how that would not make or break the game for me.

 

What I don't like tho is that some of the story chapters and the companions ( and they belong to the category of the playable content ) which are an important part of the SWTOR storyline which is promoted as a story driven game are locked and unobtainable atm for subscribers even if they would pay for them, and I'm not the only one who thinks that.

 

 

You wont even sell me the last chapter, i gotta watch it on youtube? Just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. There are otherways to reward veterns, but in a story based game that sells players on experience a great story, locking story behind subscriber veteran rewards is just silly.

 

People which are telling to us subscribers for which some of the playable content is locked that that's nothing and how we should watch videos with it on YouTube are disgusting :mad:

Edited March 19, 2018 by Lunablade

[lightSaberAddiCt]

I would like some of those companions and would PAY money to actually get them yes but can live without them to just fine. As for how many players would actually like to get them BW could see that by just searching this forum to see how many threads pop on this subject on the regular basis from the people which would like to get the chance to get them , this one is no exception at all.

 

Most threads about this have the same people, so I personally dont think it is a good idea to take a consensus from what is said here by any means..

[Lunablade]

Most threads about this have the same people, so I personally dont think it is a good idea to take a consensus from what is said here by any means..

 

If you would have now on any random MMO forum the pool with the question should any MMO have as a sub rewards playable content and not some random cosmetic items and have that content locked for half of its subscribers I bet how the results would be primary negative. Even if BW would make a survey about this subject I think how the results would not be any different.

 

Also what you just said and I don't agree with that doesn't change the fact how the entire controversial thing for some of us subscribers become a negative experience related to this game.

Edited March 19, 2018 by Lunablade

[casirabit]

I get it, subscribers should be rewarded for loyalty.

 

i quit the game 4 years ago, i wasnt keeping tabs on every expansion and all the mini events going on so missing out on cosmetic companions like niko ocar and shae are understandable. Hell i came back in march 2 days after the event for returning players to get a free month if they return and i missed that and found that to be acceptable.

 

But to be sold on coming back to experience the two new storylines, then to be told i cant actually finish it because i wasnt here comes off as a bait and switch, how is it people cant see that?

 

 

As has been stated a few times in this thread, this chapter has nothing to do with completing the new storylines. This chapter is a stand alone chapter, has nothing to do with Arcann, his sister and his father.

 

I have down the complete story line over 6 times and only one of my characters has done this chapter, as I am not thrilled running around as a droid, and the others did not do this chapter and yet they still completed the story line, so as stated this chapter has nothing to do with the Valkorian story line.

Edited March 19, 2018 by casirabit

[Tashia]

As has been stated a few times in this thread, this chapter has nothing to do with completing the new storylines. This chapter is a stand alone chapter, has nothing to do with Arcann, his sister and his father.

 

I have down the complete story line over 6 times and only one of my characters has done this chapter, as I am not thrilled running around as a droid, and the others did not do this chapter and yet they still completed the story line, so as stated this chapter has nothing to do with the Valkorian story line.

 

 

well said --- just wish this topic would go away and be done with .... I've done it 4 times ... and I don't enjoy even being a droid, hate it in fact .... don't really see why I even wanted it ( all I wanted was HK back , and I got him in another non related quest ..... )

[Lunablade]

The question which comes now to my mind is : why should some of us subscribers continue paying the sub for this MMO if some of the playable content will be locked for us, when we can go to some others which offer much more content for the same amount of money monthly but which don't lock anything ? Edited March 19, 2018 by Lunablade

[casirabit]

The question which comes now to my mind is : why should some of us subscribers continue paying the sub for this MMO if some of the playable content will be locked for us, when we can go to some others which offer much more content for the same amount of money monthly but which don't lock anything ?

 

That is a different argument than the one that started this post. This post was started with misinformation, which states you cannot complete the last two expansions if you don't have access to this chapter. This is not true, as this chapter is a stand alone chapter, that has nothing to do with the Valkorion expansions. You want to discuss whether people should get it, fine, but don't start a topic off with misinformation and ignore the ones that keep telling the OP that this stand alone chapter has nothing to do with completing KOTFE or KOTET.

[IanArgent]

Completion means different things to different people.

 

You can get through to the current end of storyline without playing it. But you won't know what happened to the Shroud if you don't play it.

[lightSaberAddiCt]

The question which comes now to my mind is : why should some of us subscribers continue paying the sub for this MMO if some of the playable content will be locked for us, when we can go to some others which offer much more content for the same amount of money monthly but which don't lock anything ?

 

I mean that is your choice to make. I sub, knowing that there are items and things I can't get from past promotions. Doesn't bother me. But at the end of the day, whether you sub or not is your decision. You can't use that to try and blackmail the devs into changing their previous offer.

[RagnarAugustus]

Prepare for some backlash.....

 

. Some get pretty butt hurt when people suggest they might loose there special status. I'm for it, it has been "recognized" as a want by players from the developers but no official "stance" on the idea.

 

It has absolutely nothing to do with "special status", it's that we met the criteria to earn it\unlock it by purposely remaining subbed (i.e. helping the game) and the whiners did not, end of story. Those who decided to let their sub lapse have no claim to subscriber rewards. Those who came late to the party, well that's just life, they can't get the old Nightmare titles and achievements for KP and EV or many other things in the game for that matter like the "Founders" title despite the fact that they may want it.

 

Normally I wouldn't mind if they could play the content and just not be awarded the companion Z0-0M from the chapter, but apart from the technical challenges that may present the whole "play as HK-51" was part of the advertised sub reward - and once sub rewards have a precedent of being available later regardless of having met the criteria the entire carrot of remaining subbed is useless and the game suffers since fewer people remained subbed for rewards.

 

If the OP and others like him really want to know what happens then they can watch a youtube video to satisfy their curiosity.

[casirabit]

Completion means different things to different people.

 

You can get through to the current end of storyline without playing it. But you won't know what happened to the Shroud if you don't play it.

 

Shroud story fine but the OP specifically stated knights of the fallen empires story, which is entirely different. That story has nothing to do with the Shroud. The knights of the fallen empire has to do with Valkorion and his children, not the shroud.

 

The shroud story also requires the Macrobinocular mission and seeker droid missions and the last part of those are also needed to be done in a group so completing those you will need to group up and I would imagine finding a group to do those now would be extremely difficult as most that group up have already done it. There are countless threads about making those solo.

Edited March 19, 2018 by casirabit

[Kyrra_T]

Shroud story fine but the OP specifically stated knights of the fallen empires story, which is entirely different. That story has nothing to do with the Shroud. The knights of the fallen empire has to do with Valkorion and his children, not the shroud.

 

The shroud story also requires the Macrobinocular mission and seeker droid missions and the last part of those are also needed to be done in a group so completing those you will need to group up and I would imagine finding a group to do those now would be extremely difficult as most that group up have already done it. There are countless threads about making those solo.

 

This. If you have not done the macrobinocular missions prior to now you will have a next to zero chance of getting them done. Their rewards are underwelming and the quests are unpopular and user unfriendly. But the main point is the OP said nothing about the Shroud line. They said KOTFE. KOTFE is in no way the Shroud storyline, the ONLY intersection with it is in the bonus chapter.

Edited March 19, 2018 by Kyrra_T

[Ratajack]

If you would have now on any random MMO forum the pool with the question should any MMO have as a sub rewards playable content and not some random cosmetic items and have that content locked for half of its subscribers I bet how the results would be primary negative. Even if BW would make a survey about this subject I think how the results would not be any different.

 

Also what you just said and I don't agree with that doesn't change the fact how the entire controversial thing for some of us subscribers become a negative experience related to this game.

 

Many MMO's have content that is available only for a limited time and once that time passes, that content is no longer available.

 

Look at the "big boy on the block".

 

The previous two expansions both had legendary quest chains that are no longer available to be completed, despite those quest chains being an integral part of the lore for those expansions. Anyone starting now cannot experience those quest chains, even though they subscribe to the game.

 

The entire world was changed a few expansions back and anyone that started after the world changed cannot experience the world as it originally was.

 

There are things in GW2 that "new players" cannot experience.

 

Those are just two games. I doubt they are the only ones. I suspect that the concept of limited time "content" is far from rare, or even uncommon. In fact, I would suspect that limited time "content" is pretty common.

[Ratajack]

The question which comes now to my mind is : why should some of us subscribers continue paying the sub for this MMO if some of the playable content will be locked for us, when we can go to some others which offer much more content for the same amount of money monthly but which don't lock anything ?

 

Go find that other game with so much more content, then. Don't let the logout screen hit you in the posterior on the way out.

Edited June 28, 2018 by Ratajack

[TrixxieTriss]

Correct it wraps up the macrobinoculars story but it's not part of the main KotFE or KotET story.

 

It’s been years now and there are hardly any subscribers left. If someone new decides to subscribe resubscribe now, regardless if they were subscribed back then, the sub now should open up that part of the story.

 

Bioware either want to keep these people happy or piss them off with dumb gates that ultimately adds to the bad feelings they will inevitably get playing the game and leave early than they would.

 

I think Bioware should want subs to play as much content as is physically in the game to keep them longer.

[Kyrra_T]

It’s been years now and there are hardly any subscribers left. If someone new decides to subscribe resubscribe now, regardless if they were subscribed back then, the sub now should open up that part of the story.

 

Bioware either want to keep these people happy or piss them off with dumb gates that ultimately adds to the bad feelings they will inevitably get playing the game and leave early than they would.

 

I think Bioware should want subs to play as much content as is physically in the game to keep them longer.

 

If a bonus chapter, not tied to the storyline keeps a person from staying subscribed then they never intended to stay subscribed to begin with. You are talking about less than 10 minutes of content, if you play it slow. The wrapup of the Shroud also, in my opinion, makes zero sense. The only thing good about the chapter at all is the decoration of the sweeping man that you get from it.

[Keta]

The only thing good about the chapter at all is the decoration of the sweeping man that you get from it.

 

qft.

 

/5char

[Ardrossan]

Go find that other game with so much more content, then. Don't let the logout screen hit you int he posterior on the way out.

 

You know, assuming the guy was a mindless hater - which he isn't - it would be better to keep him around as a paying sub, rather than telling him to unsub because you disagree with him. That would be the logical thing to do, but in all your posting history I've seen a great deal of petty, toxic bickering, but very little in the way of logical argumentation.

Edited March 20, 2018 by Ardrossan

[PetFish]

That would be the logical thing to do, but in all your posting history I've seen a great deal of petty, toxic bickering, but very little in the way of logical argumentation.

 

Cuz having to explain time-limited promotions and having to be subscribed during time-limited promotions in order to get the time-limited stuffs isn't logical at all, right? There's nothing to argue about. You either qualify or you don't. It's just that easy. That's 100% logic.

 

You want to talk about toxic bickering? It's the people that demand to have things out of their reach and think the entire game's life and death revolve around things like this and making ridiculous statements as such are the real problem and the real Toxic Avengers.

 

This sums it up perfectly:

If a bonus chapter, not tied to the storyline keeps a person from staying subscribed then they never intended to stay subscribed to begin with.

Edited March 20, 2018 by PetFish

[Ardrossan]

Cuz having to explain time-limited promotions and having to be subscribed during time-limited promotions in order to get the time-limited stuffs isn't logical at all, right? There's nothing to argue about. You either qualify or you don't. It's just that easy. That's 100% logic.

 

You want to talk about toxic bickering? It's the people that demand to have things out of their reach and think the entire game's life and death revolve around things like this and making ridiculous statements as such are the real problem and the real Toxic Avengers.

 

This sums it up perfectly:

 

As others have stated plenty of times, you qualified for the promotion to get it AT THAT TIME. That was what, two years ago? Well, two years later, the rules are different. Just like when BW released Hutt Cartel and SOR to anyone who redeemed a free code last October, even though subs had paid for those expansions years ago. Yet they did it anyway, because all you paid for was access *at that time*. You still got the shiny thing, and you got the shiny thing before anyone else. What's your problem? This isn't founder titles, it's not doo-dads from years ago, it's story content.

 

Now, tbh, the original mistake was BW's in paywalling story content in this manner in the first place. That datacron story box for the Shroud that they sold in the CM a few years before this was also widely criticized on the forum, particularly because for the precedent it set, which led to this decision. But, it's done now. The way to fix that bungle is not to keep it gated, even though doing so would crush certain folks who judge a thing's worth by other people not having it.

 

And again - I don't want the thing in the first place. I have no interest in the chapter. But I DO have an interest in story content being gated for no reason than because BW wanted to drum up business a few years back, and has kept it gated so it could be as a status symbol for tryhards. And I definitely GAF about people being told to unsub and other people defending that s--t. That kind of behavior is indefensible, and always has been, no matter what topic you're yammering about.