DefenderTwo Posted May 27, 2018 Share Posted May 27, 2018 Yeah, there was some wiggle room for me in KotFE. Some sense that she might actually have a level of agency, "troubled" as she was, and simply chose to be awful. I always thought that she was meant to be a child with too much power and emotional issues, not simply evil, but I could see it the other way. Once Betrayed hit, that was over for me, and nothing in KotET changed my mind. I got the impression that some of the events in kotet were to get us thinking along the lines of 'she's pure evil' such as the death of Torian or Vette. or the attack on Voss, but I never felt she did anything your average Sith character wouldn't do, she never matched Arcann's destructive genocidal levels or bloodlust. Given the option I would rather have had her by my side then Arcann or Senya. I think through all the betrayel she's been through, she would have been more trustworthy than Arcann and Senya combined. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamephil Posted May 27, 2018 Share Posted May 27, 2018 I got the impression that some of the events in kotet were to get us thinking along the lines of 'she's pure evil' such as the death of Torian or Vette. or the attack on Voss, but I never felt she did anything your average Sith character wouldn't do, she never matched Arcann's destructive genocidal levels or bloodlust. Yeah, I've never denied that she was dangerous, and had done terrible things, but pure evil? I agree, that seems to be what they were going for, but then why give us the "spirit breaking" bit, or her "choice" line? Why have her shivering in a cave until her eyes change? Why show us over and over again how she was betrayed or hurt? If we had been forced to kill her but allowed to show regret for it, it wouldn't grate nearly as badly. They've allowed that kind of choice in the past, where we can show mercy but have it be rejected, why not here? Like you said, she's not particularly worse than some other characters, and, bonus, her destruction was shown to both us and our characters very clearly. I don't get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulsutherland Posted May 27, 2018 Share Posted May 27, 2018 (edited) Yeah, I've never denied that she was dangerous, and had done terrible things, but pure evil? I agree, that seems to be what they were going for, but then why give us the "spirit breaking" bit, or her "choice" line? Why have her shivering in a cave until her eyes change? Why show us over and over again how she was betrayed or hurt? If we had been forced to kill her but allowed to show regret for it, it wouldn't grate nearly as badly. They've allowed that kind of choice in the past, where we can show mercy but have it be rejected, why not here? Like you said, she's not particularly worse than some other characters, and, bonus, her destruction was shown to both us and our characters very clearly. I don't get it. Don't you be getting cold feet now, Brother Phil ... we've sent 8 months moaning about a Vaylin companion ... don't you start thinking settling for less! Read Chapter VI from the Book of Zildrog and your faith to this quest will be restored! Maybe they made the trailer long before KOTET released? So whatever story they wanted to do got dumped for current plot. Evil ... thinking back on it ... the most 'evil' think Vaylin did was ... killing Vette/Torian? She didn't really do anything that bad ... certainly nothing worse than her brother ... Mr. I-feel-bad-gimme-redemption-plot .. you know ... with the whole bombings and mass executions of his own men. Edited May 27, 2018 by Paulsutherland Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DefenderTwo Posted May 27, 2018 Share Posted May 27, 2018 Yeah, I've never denied that she was dangerous, and had done terrible things, but pure evil? I agree, that seems to be what they were going for, but then why give us the "spirit breaking" bit, or her "choice" line? Why have her shivering in a cave until her eyes change? Why show us over and over again how she was betrayed or hurt? If we had been forced to kill her but allowed to show regret for it, it wouldn't grate nearly as badly. They've allowed that kind of choice in the past, where we can show mercy but have it be rejected, why not here? Like you said, she's not particularly worse than some other characters, and, bonus, her destruction was shown to both us and our characters very clearly. I don't get it. I don't know, it's bizarre. Maybe the message they were trying to send us been misunderstood? Do you think we'll ever get Vaylin's KOTET outfit? or her lightsaber? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamephil Posted May 27, 2018 Share Posted May 27, 2018 (edited) I don't know, it's bizarre. Maybe the message they were trying to send us been misunderstood? Possibly. I'd really like them to just spoon feed us what their intentions were with her. "We were rushed but intended X, sorry about the confusion" would be good. Do you think we'll ever get Vaylin's KOTET outfit? or her lightsaber? I'm doubting it. I mean, we don't really even have the KotFE, one, just something that's a bit similar if we squint. Really, the KotET one should be simpler, they don't need to worry about the hair. Edited May 27, 2018 by gamephil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamephil Posted May 27, 2018 Share Posted May 27, 2018 (edited) Don't you be getting cold feet now, Brother Phil ... we've sent 8 months moaning about a Vaylin companion ... don't you start thinking settling for less! Read Chapter VI from the Book of Zildrog and your faith to this quest will be restored! No fear of that. I'm talking about what they would have had to do in the first place, but didn't, in my opinion. A whole "lay her ghost to rest" or even just a funeral where we can be kinder than "Kneel" would be appreciated, but at this point, just giving us a companion would be more satisfying and seems less difficult to do than any of that. Both? Both. Both is good. Maybe they made the trailer long before KOTET released? So whatever story they wanted to do got dumped for current plot. Evil ... thinking back on it ... the most 'evil' think Vaylin did was ... killing Vette/Torian? She didn't really do anything that bad ... certainly nothing worse than her brother ... Mr. I-feel-bad-gimme-redemption-plot .. you know ... with the whole bombings and mass executions of his own men. Yeah, there being time between them where they then were unable to follow through better is what I hope happened, honestly. Understanding that, if it's true, doesn't stop me from wanting something more to fix what we ended up with, though. I generally think of the re-enslavement of the GEMINIs as the worst thing she did. But even that is after SCORPIO, ARIES, and the random droid that shot her in the back. Plus, the way that droids are treated in the Star Wars universe, even by the good guys. It was wrong, I just don't view it as the whole "evil for the lulz" thing that some people do, but the reaction of a broken person being betrayed and caged and manipulated again. Maybe the bombing of Voss should beat that out, but after the "know your place" bit and getting one of their ships to destroy another one just kind of hits harder. Maybe because bombing whole worlds to nothing has become passe in the Star Wars universe through overuse. Plus, her enslaving them after saying free will is good and ordering one of the ships to blow up another after objecting to "have my Knights fight each other to the death" just didn't sit well with me. Maybe it was supposed to be a sign of her continued deterioration, I guess. I still would have preferred what KotFE seemed to say for her, not just the very negative but those brief moments of something more positive, being part of her character in KotET. Oh, well. Edited May 27, 2018 by gamephil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulsutherland Posted May 27, 2018 Share Posted May 27, 2018 I generally think of the re-enslavement of the GEMINIs as the worst thing she did. Really? I thought that was a smart move. The Gemini droids lost Voss wen the Sith Empire showed up, the moment Vaylin regained control over the fleet, she managed to take out several Alliance outposts and patrols in a single hour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arunav Posted May 27, 2018 Share Posted May 27, 2018 (edited) Leave EVERYTHING to do with KotFE/ET behind now that the latest FP has ended that story. Vaylin was a 6-year-old cartoon's version of a villain, and future content should focus elsewhere than the KotFE/ET time period. It was, at best, a story that didn't fit into SWTOR's existing game well. In reality, it drove away most of SWTOR's remaining playerbase from the 1.x/2.x/3.x era. This has had a very obvious result on server populations, and the quality and amount of new content. Maybe as it's own game, KotFE/ET/Whatever else was planned would have been a good RPG. In SWTOR, it was a disaster, one I don't think the game will recover from. Those players that left don't seem to be coming back. Edited May 27, 2018 by arunav Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamephil Posted May 27, 2018 Share Posted May 27, 2018 Really? I thought that was a smart move. The Gemini droids lost Voss wen the Sith Empire showed up, the moment Vaylin regained control over the fleet, she managed to take out several Alliance outposts and patrols in a single hour. Yes, but I'm not talking about effectiveness. She destroyed the six-month-old minds of countless GEMINI droids for the crime of being afraid. It gave her an edge, sure, but it was still basically what was done to her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamephil Posted May 27, 2018 Share Posted May 27, 2018 (edited) Vaylin was a 6-year-old cartoon's version of a villain, and future content should focus elsewhere than the KotFE/ET time period. Vaylin was an abuse victim that we are forced to abuse more. So I agree that she was badly done, but in the sense that the dev's didn't seem to understand why that was a problem. I'd still like them to fix it, thanks, even if we then move on from it. Edited May 27, 2018 by gamephil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DefenderTwo Posted May 27, 2018 Share Posted May 27, 2018 Just because the story theme changes doesn't mean they can't continue parts of kotfe, kotet and the traitor arcs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamephil Posted May 27, 2018 Share Posted May 27, 2018 Just because the story theme changes doesn't mean they can't continue parts of kotfe, kotet and the traitor arcs. This, also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DefenderTwo Posted May 27, 2018 Share Posted May 27, 2018 I'm doubting it. I mean, we don't really even have the KotFE, one, just something that's a bit similar if we squint. Really, the KotET one should be simpler, they don't need to worry about the hair. I suppose, the outfit was made to Vaylin's body model, but I would like to see an outfit based on her kotet outfit in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamephil Posted May 27, 2018 Share Posted May 27, 2018 I suppose, the outfit was made to Vaylin's body model, but I would like to see an outfit based on her kotet outfit in the future. With any luck. Changing the pants to a robe bottom might help, then maybe get some bracers and/or gloves that are the tattoos would be all we'd need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DefenderTwo Posted May 27, 2018 Share Posted May 27, 2018 With any luck. Changing the pants to a robe bottom might help, then maybe get some bracers and/or gloves that are the tattoos would be all we'd need. Tattoo bracers and glove parts? Nice idea! Did we ever find out what those metallic orbs were on the forehead of Vaylin and Senya? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamephil Posted May 27, 2018 Share Posted May 27, 2018 Tattoo bracers and glove parts? Nice idea! Did we ever find out what those metallic orbs were on the forehead of Vaylin and Senya? Numerous headcanons, nothing official, unless I missed it. My favorite, for no reason, is that they are a way to store the spirit of the wearer if they die, so he gave them to his wife and "favorite" child. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DefenderTwo Posted May 27, 2018 Share Posted May 27, 2018 Numerous headcanons, nothing official, unless I missed it. My favorite, for no reason, is that they are a way to store the spirit of the wearer if they die, so he gave them to his wife and "favorite" child. Now that we know Valkorion was assisted by a machine, as crazy as that would be, I suppose it would make sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulsutherland Posted May 27, 2018 Share Posted May 27, 2018 With any luck. Changing the pants to a robe bottom might help, then maybe get some bracers and/or gloves that are the tattoos would be all we'd need. As long as that weird double hood is hidden with the hide head piece option, then yes please I also want Vaylin's saber hilt! *Throws money at screen* Take my money Bioware! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DefenderTwo Posted May 28, 2018 Share Posted May 28, 2018 She had two sabers from a piece of concept art awhile back, so glue them together and they could have another double bladed lightsaber model to sell to us? What about the forehead orbs as a item for the headslot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulsutherland Posted May 28, 2018 Share Posted May 28, 2018 Yes, but I'm not talking about effectiveness. She destroyed the six-month-old minds of countless GEMINI droids for the crime of being afraid. It gave her an edge, sure, but it was still basically what was done to her. You sound like L3-37 ... Spoilers ... Don't be like L3-37! I never felt anything for the Gemini droids. While it's a similar scenario to what she went through on Nathema ... they were just droids, nothing more than parts of the ships. She had two sabers from a piece of concept art awhile back, so glue them together and they could have another double bladed lightsaber model to sell to us? What about the forehead orbs as a item for the headslot? Metal head lumps for everyone!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamephil Posted May 28, 2018 Share Posted May 28, 2018 (edited) You sound like L3-37 ... Spoilers ... Don't be like L3-37! I never felt anything for the Gemini droids. While it's a similar scenario to what she went through on Nathema ... they were just droids, nothing more than parts of the ships. Which is perfectly fair. I can't help it, though, they've already presented too many R2's and T7's and the whole "I choose the stars" and "I'm afraid, Empress" just gets to me. Maybe if they hadn't given them a human voice, but they did. Whether they are really just supposed to be machines or not is too deep a philosophical discussion. Regardless, she's the broken one and was betrayed and used by both SCORPIO and ARIES. And the Commander. To me, it was a terrible thing, but it doesn't actually change my opinion of her. I know she's bad, I know why, and I'd like her back, or at least something better than what we currently have. Edited May 28, 2018 by gamephil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulsutherland Posted May 28, 2018 Share Posted May 28, 2018 Regardless, she's the broken one and was betrayed and used by both SCORPIO and ARIES. And the Commander. To me, it was a terrible thing, but it doesn't actually change my opinion of her. I know she's bad, I know why, and I'd like her back, or at least something better than what we currently have. She was betrayed again and again, after awhile I imagine she just started to expect it from everyone. However, time for something more positive. ---- Vaylin Art by @Glorfinniell Telmarr would have been the character I would have romanced Vaylin on, back when I thought we were going to end up in a scenario where Light Siders got Arcann and Dark Siders would get Vaylin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DefenderTwo Posted May 28, 2018 Share Posted May 28, 2018 (edited) Which is perfectly fair. I can't help it, though, they've already presented too many R2's and T7's and the whole "I choose the stars" and "I'm afraid, Empress" just gets to me. Maybe if they hadn't given them a human voice, but they did. Whether they are really just supposed to be machines or not is too deep a philosophical discussion. Regardless, she's the broken one and was betrayed and used by both SCORPIO and ARIES. And the Commander. To me, it was a terrible thing, but it doesn't actually change my opinion of her. I know she's bad, I know why, and I'd like her back, or at least something better than what we currently have. If it's what she's only known, then you can't really blame her for inflicting the same treatment onto others. A pity we were never allowed to show her another path. Vaylin Art Nice. A happy ended we all wanted. Question from another thread. Does the swtor era have cloning technology? Edited May 28, 2018 by DefenderTwo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamephil Posted May 28, 2018 Share Posted May 28, 2018 If it's what she's only known, then you can't really blame her for inflicting the same treatment onto others. A pity we were never allowed to show her another path. Precisely so. Stopping her was necessary, and maybe even holding her to account afterward to an extent if she was alive (and if the Commander doesn't just side with her), but really, after a while I just start asking, what were we to expect? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DefenderTwo Posted May 28, 2018 Share Posted May 28, 2018 Precisely so. Stopping her was necessary, and maybe even holding her to account afterward to an extent if she was alive (and if the Commander doesn't just side with her), but really, after a while I just start asking, what were we to expect? I suppose the throne needed to lose its connection to Vaylin in order for the fleet to go into its rampage but it felt weak, they could of just had it lose connection by weakening or knocking out Vaylin opposed to straight out killing her. From the side of a dark sider, you may approve or encourage Vaylin to continue down the path she was already on, she reacted better in my opinion to the dark side chat option in the last chapter than the light sided options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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