Compassion, Healing or Love for the Broken Dark Princess: Vaylin Appreciation <3

[Asmodesu]

Realism is irrelevant here, with common sense shadowing behind.

 

 

Now, I've been promoted to the Order of Zildrog Mailman

 

Man, do I have a parcel for you to deliver then!

[Paulsutherland]

Man, do I have a parcel for you to deliver then!

 

Is your mail late? Have you lost your mail due to intergalactic war? Are you down because you don't have a Vaylin companion? Sign up for the Zildrogs-Galactic-Postal-Service today!

 

Due to Miss Beniko and Mr. Shan's incompetence dealing with the Zakuulans, the Order of Zildrog is proud to announce our brand new delivery service ... no message is too small or large for the Zildrog Postal Service!

 

-

 

Zildrogs Postal services are not to be held accountable for lost mail containing items we want!

 

Zildrog does not deliver to Tatooine!

 

-

 

In other news, we now have a deviantart fan club for our beloved Empress. (Thanks Black) So does Arcann.

 

Arcann-FC

Vaylin-FC

Edited May 17, 2018 by Paulsutherland

[Kiesu]

Realism is irrelevant here, with common sense shadowing behind.

Ah, the classic "I've ran out of arguments so I'll dismiss all your points with my personal opinion which is always right!"

 

Heres mine:

IMO it's better to keep dead characters dead. We already have one immortal villain character in this universe and in this game, and that is enough.

 

We've all encountered this phenomena in various media. Character is presumed dead, then- TA DA!- by some miraculous feat/magic/loophole/bending of time and space the character turns out to be alive.

 

I never liked the whole just kidding, he aint actually dead trope in fiction. It feels like cheating, and removes the impact value from the story.

Not to say that every character revival ever written is cheating and should never be used- when handled well it can be a great way to connect with readers emotions during aftermath. But if you arent careful, character revivals can cheapen the death within the story, which usually ends up being the case.

 

When character revival trick is overdone, people start to expect it. Future character deaths become less meaningful. because players begin to anticipate that chances are, the character will be revived later on. When death becomes a concept that the player doesn't view as permanent state of character- it doesnt mean anything, and the whole impact of any future death scene is immediately reduced.

 

Even if the revival isnt overdone, it's very easy for a character to start feeling invincible. After all, they cant die. This is an issue many player characters are suffering from, they think they can do anything, because in videogame logic the player character is ultimately immortal for the sake of the player. This is why books in general have better stories overall, because the main character is not protected by plotarmor. You'll fear what will become of the main character in a book when met with overwhelming odds against their survival, because they might actually die, get crippled, be left traumatized and so on. If the player character is met with such conditions in a vidogame scene, chances are 99% of the time they'll come out of it without a scratch, because the story must go on and all that loot cant go to waste, right? You can see the difficulties of videogame writing right there.

 

But like I said, even though i enjoyed Vaylin a lot, revivals are something you have to be very careful with. You dont want to make your players feel cheated, and start expecting that any character at any time can be revived if they just yell enough about it.

So no, dont revive her. And don't revive Kephess either, pls

[Paulsutherland]

Ah, the classic "I've ran out of arguments so I'll dismiss all your points with my personal opinion which is always right!"

 

Heres mine:

 

You've got your opinions on the plot, I've got mine. You don't want her to come back, that's fine, Me and some others do ... let's leave it at that and move on.

Edited May 17, 2018 by Paulsutherland

[DefenderTwo]

- KOTET should have given you the option for a diplomatic ending of the conflict

- BUT instead u got:

" be nice to Vaylin & kill her "

" be neutral to Vaylin & kill her"

"be mean to Vaylin & kill her"

 

- and what about Senya getting her daughter back

- and we redeemed Arcann already

 

I wouldn't say we needed a diplomatic ending, but an outcome where we have Vaylin instead of Arcann and Senya would have been nice.

[gamephil]

I wouldn't say we needed a diplomatic ending, but an outcome where we have Vaylin instead of Arcann and Senya would have been nice.

 

I'd really prefer to have the whole set be a possibility. Even if it means they all leave together because she needs to be watched and helped somewhere.

 

- KOTET should have given you the option for a diplomatic ending of the conflict

- BUT instead u got:

" be nice to Vaylin & kill her "

" be neutral to Vaylin & kill her"

"be mean to Vaylin & kill her"

 

Honestly, if I thought we'd ever gotte "be nice to Vaylin" as an option, I wouldn't be here. We talk a good game about sparing her life, then mock her and abuse her ourselves, meaning that there's no way she'll ever surrender or have any kind of diplomatic solution. Yes, we try to reason with her several times, but that's just not the same, and after using the command phrase and letting her father taunt her without a word, why would she trust us for anything else?

 

In the cut script, that's even what she basically says if we call on her to surrender, that Father would never show her mercy. That would not have made up for Chapter 6, at all, but it still would have been better, because we are allowed to try. Just too late. But they cut that.

 

Realism is irrelevant here, with common sense shadowing behind. ]

 

I wouldn't quite say irrelevant, but I would agree that other things are more important in a Star Wars universe than realism. Moreover, that the definition of "realism" in the galaxy far far away is much less strict than it is in ours. I think that "plausible" is a much better thing to shoot for, and that several of the explanations I've seen are, to me, plausible enough. Obviously, YMMV.

Edited May 17, 2018 by gamephil

[DefenderTwo]

I'd really prefer to have the whole set be a possibility. Even if it means they all leave together because she needs to be watched and helped somewhere.

 

 

 

Honestly, if I thought we'd ever gotten the first option, I wouldn't be here. We talk a good game about sparing her life, then mock her and abuse her ourselves, meaning that there's no way she'll ever surrender or have any kind of diplomatic solution. Yes, we try to reason with her several times, but that's just not the same, and after using the command phrase and letting her father taunt her without a word, why would she trust us for anything else?

 

In the cut script, that's even what she basically says if we call on her to surrender, that Father would never show her mercy. That would not have made up for Chapter 6, at all, but it still would have been better, because we are allowed to try. Just too late. Ultimately, I know her fate, she's the classic "crazy woman in the attic that has to die", but if we'd been allowed to try something better than "Killing him won't heal your scars", or shown remorse for "needing" to use the command phrase, or had a better plan with it, or even in mentioning it to Arcann not saying, "If you hadn't interfered, she'd be dead!" and having him apologize for it, it would have been less annoying. So much bad.

 

That bonus chapter idea in the suggestion thread then could be your ideal argument for that. Speaking for me, I would be happy with the console or event unlock. A story option is always better, but if not an option I would rather have a non story companion? Like Hexid or Vizla.

 

In every attempt we try to reason with Vaylin there is always something or someone else interfering making the situation worse. The Iokath chapter would have been the ideal place to team up if only briefly. Valkorion for whatever reason didn't make an appearance there.

 

I was listening to the deleted dialog the other day, from what I heard it sounded like she wanted to surrender but feared what Valkorion would do. You've also got some lines in the final chapter about her being able to choose, something she responds positive too.(I'm not sure what that line was suppose to mean)

[gamephil]

I am perfectly happy with the console companion. It allows me to pretend that her story and how it ended didn't make my skin crawl and impacts people who want to leave the story alone minimally. I'd actually prefer it at this point to any story addition that ends with her still being dead and gone. The Vaylin's Farewell thread is well thought out and lovely, and if we'd been given that a year ago I would have moved on by now, but at this point I'd simply take having her at my side even without any kind of story relevance than anything else regarding her aside from a full story based return. I can supply my own story relevance.

 

If they were to give us that, though, I'd still take it as at least recognizing that the story has problems. That would improve my mood about it, and again, it would be a lovely sendoff if that's all we're going to get. That AND having her on the console afterward would be even better, though.

Edited May 17, 2018 by gamephil

[gamephil]

Also acting as a mail droid, deliverd from blackvinils:

 

1 - Vaylin played the role of villain to a certain moment, so at least will be saved intrigue. Besides, no one says she's immortal, only because in the context of the bonus Chapter, she can be resurrected (it's kind of a one-only chance for her, plus she has a well-written character, from a certain point of view, to be given that opportunity)

 

2 - The problem is the "resurrection behind the scenes" really applies not only to games, but again, this nonsense can be reduced to a minimum, if the details provide the viewer / player the process of resurrection - again, in the case of the head -Outlander, under certain circumstances, personally takes part in the resurrection process.

 

3 - But, if we be "careful", then it works as it should, especially Vaylin - if it was manifested the indifference of players like those, wouldn't be up this discussions (Or you always see in discussions is something like "Hey, it would be great to resurrect one or another character") I so do not remember, especially, received such attention.

 

4 - Again - what makes you think that the Vaylin revival trick might overdo it-in your mind, after that, many people they'll think she's invulnerable? I understand what you mean, but don't generalize.

 

5 - In the context that Vaylin can be resurrected as a bonus companion and as a consequence she does not take further part in the plot, will not be created about its omnipotence, since she does not participate in the further narrative (in the likeness of some companions obtained through the Aliance alert - they do not take part in the plot, but it does not make them immortal). If the overall story (in this case a return to conflict between the two sides) does not include Vaylin - then the idea may well work, because it will not spoil the main plot.

 

6 - We will be careful (I promise))). In addition, those subject to real choice - everyone will decide - whether Vaylin is alive or not will be resurrected - this will prevent the players self-deception, which you mentioned, so I still think it is worth trying, again, if you change the structure of the narrative of the bonus Chapter, in which the resurrection is not a mandatory element, and is given only by choice.

Edited May 17, 2018 by gamephil

[DefenderTwo]

I am perfectly happy with the console companion. It allows me to pretend that her story and how it ended didn't make my skin crawl and impacts people who want to leave the story alone minimally. I'd actually prefer it at this point to any story addition that ends with her still being dead and gone. The Vaylin's Farewell thread is well thought out and lovely, and if we'd been given that a year ago I would have moved on by now, but at this point I'd simply take having her at my side even without any kind of story relevance than anything else regarding her aside from a full story based return. I can supply my own story relevance.

 

If they were to give us that, though, I'd still take it as at least recognizing that the story has problems. That would improve my mood about it, and again, it would be a lovely sendoff if that's all we're going to get. That AND having her on the console afterward would be even better, though.

 

That's what I would do, it would make replaying kotfe/et more palatable. I wouldn't have to think of my character being turned into a mindless husk doing the will of Valkorion. I'm not sure why it would effect the story in anyway? It would be no worse than having Darth Hexid, or Mandalore accompanying new characters while on Korriban, Tython etc. As long as the story is clear and made sense, I would take it, but at this point I would like the companion too.

 

All the Vaylin threads in the suggestion threads are good ideas, they're well thought out with believable scenarios (in my opinion). Mix the farewell idea with the bonus chapter idea and both those who want a goodbye or a companion would be happy. If all else fails then perhaps an event for participating in an event? or to the console? or a subscriber reward?

 

It might encourage people to play through Kotfe and kotet on other characters if they could claim Vaylin at the end.

[Paulsutherland]

Mail!

 

BlackMan

 

In particular, this applies to the call through the terminal. I mean, when Charles mentioned "the likely appearance of Vaylin in the Chapter-the flashback" then it would be possible to link her call through the terminal - can use those who need her as a companion, the rest can just not use the call. This is as in the case, for example, with Senya \ Torian \Vette\ Malavai \ Koth - they could be killed in history, but returned to the terminal PR help, exclusively for a variety of gameplay.

 

Similarly, in the case of Vaylin - and the background is already possible to imagine on their own, as if she had been raised, saved, ultimately, we have her as a companion.

 

The emphasis on this idea is better to do at a time when it becomes 100% known that the idea of the resurrection will not be implemented for one reason or another.

Edited May 17, 2018 by Paulsutherland

[DefenderTwo]

Also acting as a mail droid, deliverd from blackvinils:

 

1 - Vaylin played the role of villain to a certain moment, so at least will be saved intrigue. Besides, no one says she's immortal, only because in the context of the bonus Chapter, she can be resurrected (it's kind of a one-only chance for her, plus she has a well-written character, from a certain point of view, to be given that opportunity)

 

2 - The problem is the "resurrection behind the scenes" really applies not only to games, but again, this nonsense can be reduced to a minimum, if the details provide the viewer / player the process of resurrection - again, in the case of the head -Outlander, under certain circumstances, personally takes part in the resurrection process.

 

3 - But, if we be "careful", then it works as it should, especially Vaylin - if it was manifested the indifference of players like those, wouldn't be up this discussions (Or you always see in discussions is something like "Hey, it would be great to resurrect one or another character") I so do not remember, especially, received such attention.

 

4 - Again - what makes you think that the Vaylin revival trick might overdo it-in your mind, after that, many people they'll think she's invulnerable? I understand what you mean, but don't generalize.

 

5 - In the context that Vaylin can be resurrected as a bonus companion and as a consequence she does not take further part in the plot, will not be created about its omnipotence, since she does not participate in the further narrative (in the likeness of some companions obtained through the Aliance alert - they do not take part in the plot, but it does not make them immortal). If the overall story (in this case a return to conflict between the two sides) does not include Vaylin - then the idea may well work, because it will not spoil the main plot.

 

6 - We will be careful (I promise))). In addition, those subject to real choice - everyone will decide - whether Vaylin is alive or not will be resurrected - this will prevent the players self-deception, which you mentioned, so I still think it is worth trying, again, if you change the structure of the narrative of the bonus Chapter, in which the resurrection is not a mandatory element, and is given only by choice.

 

Should this be in the bonus thread? As much as I would love to see Vaylin return via a surprise bonus chapter, I'm content if they allowed us to unlock her through various tasks.

[Celise]

Should this be in the bonus thread? As much as I would love to see Vaylin return via a surprise bonus chapter, I'm content if they allowed us to unlock her through various tasks.

 

Yeah, Black should adjust the thread op on his/her suggestion and make adjustments as there is already enough reasonable doubt cast on parts of it that gave Black some pause already.

[DefenderTwo]

Yeah, Black should adjust the thread op on his/her suggestion and make adjustments as there is already enough reasonable doubt cast on parts of it that gave Black some pause already.

 

What part? Lore wise I can by it. That said if its just to get a non story companion, as much as I would like more story for her. I think it would be simpler to ask for just that.

[Celise]

What part? Lore wise I can by it. That said if its just to get a non story companion, as much as I would like more story for her. I think it would be simpler to ask for just that.

 

it shouldn't really need reply since it is cover the past few pages as to what parts.

 

it wouldn't make much sense to call her out of the blue from the terminal after she was slain at your hands. For Lore reasons there would need to be something to explain how she came back and has become your follower.

[gamephil]

I'm just the delivery person, and he asked for the compassion post. Where are you saying to put it, on his? I can do that. Especially since OP here didn't actually want her to return, just wanted to get more compassion for her (fond memories are good, too).

 

If I'm going to remove it from here, though, it might be good to also remove the quote.

Edited May 18, 2018 by gamephil

[Paulsutherland]

it shouldn't really need reply since it is cover the past few pages as to what parts.

 

it wouldn't make much sense to call her out of the blue from the terminal after she was slain at your hands. For Lore reasons there would need to be something to explain how she came back and has become your follower.

 

You could argue it would be the same reason for Vette, Torian or anyone else who has died or left.

[gamephil]

You could argue it would be the same reason for Vette, Torian or anyone else who has died or left.

 

I agree with that. It comes down to whether or not a story-based reason for her to be back is even feasible. If there aren't enough people that want her back, for whatever reasons they might have, it may not be worth it to the company to bring her back by the story, but a companion without explanation from the console, like the above or even SCORPIO (who, like Vaylin, had at the time no choice: her body is dead no matter what you choose, but she can still be brought back) might be worthwhile. It might not be, as I've said, I don't know.

 

If more story is feasible but they simply don't want to do it because they feel her story is sufficient and good, and that changing it would therefore be inappropriate, I very strongly disagree, but a console based return still works, because she's not given any more or less logic than the others. It bypasses the story they chose for her in the same way as the "choice" characters or SCORPIO do.

 

I'd prefer more story that ends with her either alive or as a spirit companion (as long as she's still around), and I'd take more story that ends in her getting a better end or sympathetic flashbacks (likely all we're going to get, and if it's not at least as good as Vaylin's Farewell I'd really just rather not). I just don't know if that level of work is something they want to commit to. The console companion that we can make our own stories for still seems like a reasonable compromise.

[banimoka]

- Ladies & Gents i formally call this topic a WIN

- it seems one of the developers read this topic and it got him thinking

- right now there's a pool on which is the best mom : Senya or Satele ( https://twitter.com/hashtag/Senya?src=hash )

- who knows if Senya wins maybe she will get her daughter back ... along with the rest of us

[Paulsutherland]

- Ladies & Gents i formally call this topic a WIN

- it seems one of the developers read this topic and it got him thinking

- right now there's a pool on which is the best mom : Senya or Satele ( https://twitter.com/hashtag/Senya?src=hash )

- who knows if Senya wins maybe she will get her daughter back ... along with the rest of us

 

Of course it's a winner ... I'm here!

Who? what? where? when? why? (Seriously?)

Satele

It's just a twitter vote thing ... they do them everyone now and then w/ various characters.

Edited May 18, 2018 by Paulsutherland

[Celise]

You could argue it would be the same reason for Vette, Torian or anyone else who has died or left.

 

again it doesn't need a reply from me when you see how a good deal of the companions have come back, you will note all of them seen so far have some reason why they come back:

 

Lana - Save your live and change the galaxy (chapter 3 FE)

T7-01 - Save your life and change the galaxy (chapter 3 FE)

Theron Shan - Left the Republic due to inability to fight the EE, came to the alliance because of Lana and the outlander. Lana needed a good operator and all round general manager. (Chapter 9 FE)

Yuun - Due to the fact he sensed it ahead of time.

Skadge - Black sun criminal leader who was convinced to fight Zakuul and be your ally in the underworld.

Lokin - You save his life from deteriorating Rakghoul DNA cells and he helps you in return.

Qyzen Fess - You become the new Heralds scorekeeper and Qyzen and the warstalker join you to hunt the Zakuulans for jagganath points.

M1-4X/Pierce - Testing yourself against opponents and impress either one and he will leave his post gladly and join you.

...

 

they all have a lore reason.

Edited May 18, 2018 by Celise

[gamephil]

again it doesn't need a reply from me when you see how a good deal of the companions have come back, you will note all of them seen so far have some reason why they come back:

 

Lana - Save your live and change the galaxy (chapter 3 FE)

T7-01 - Save your life and change the galaxy (chapter 3 FE)

Theron Shan - Left the Republic due to inability to fight the EE, came to the alliance because of Lana and the outlander. Lana needed a good operator and all round general manager. (Chapter 9 FE)

Yuun - Due to the fact he sensed it ahead of time.

Skadge - Black sun criminal leader who was convinced to fight Zakuul and be your ally in the underworld.

Lokin - You save his life from deteriorating Rakghoul DNA cells and he helps you in return.

Qyzen Fess - You become the new Heralds scorekeeper and Qyzen and the warstalker join you to hunt the Zakuulans for jagganath points.

M1-4X/Pierce - Testing yourself against opponents and impress either one and he will leave his post gladly and join you.

...

 

they all have a lore reason.

 

Paul (Brother Paul?) is referring to the characters that can come back on the console on Odessan, though. Torian or Vette (depending on which one you don't save), and SCORPIO are the ones I have who have died that can be brought back (supposedly, mine seems to be bugged or something). It bypasses the story and the lore and has no impact on it. I'd like a story reason that she comes back, if she were to, but we're talking about two different things, here.

[Paulsutherland]

Paul (Brother Paul?) is referring to the characters that can come back on the console on Odessan, though. Torian or Vette (depending on which one you don't save), and SCORPIO are the ones I have who have died that can be brought back (supposedly, mine seems to be bugged or something). It bypasses the story and the lore and has no impact on it. I'd like a story reason that she comes back, if she were to, but we're talking about two different things, here.

 

^^^ That's what I meant, sorry.

 

I approve!

[DefenderTwo]

Paul (Brother Paul?) is referring to the characters that can come back on the console on Odessan, though. Torian or Vette (depending on which one you don't save), and SCORPIO are the ones I have who have died that can be brought back (supposedly, mine seems to be bugged or something). It bypasses the story and the lore and has no impact on it. I'd like a story reason that she comes back, if she were to, but we're talking about two different things, here.

 

It brings up a message when you do this saying this companions return won't effect the story ( or something like that.)

[Paulsutherland]

This

 

Vaylin was a companion, if only briefly at the end, so I don't see why not?