Compassion, Healing or Love for the Broken Dark Princess: Vaylin Appreciation <3

[Paulsutherland]

I never realized how sensitive this site's search function is, if I do a search for "Vaylin" the "Vaylin's Farewell" thread doesn't pop up, it has to be "Vaylin's" in the search.

 

I just subscribe to threads (bottom of the page) It's easier to keep track of topics I have an interest in, but yeah, the search is very specific.

[Blackvinils]

I just subscribe to threads (bottom of the page) It's easier to keep track of topics I have an interest in, but yeah, the search is very specific.

 

This search is so "specific" that I managed to find nothing on "Vaylin" just because of double-clicking on " enter":eek::eek:

 

 

 

#BringBackVaylin

[Paulsutherland]

This search is so "specific" that I managed to find nothing on "Vaylin" just because of double-clicking on " enter":eek::eek:

 

 

 

#BringBackVaylin

 

Just dump the threads you want to follow into your subscription box, then you need not worry about finding them or how they're spelt!

 

---

 

I see you recruited some GMOD players to the 'great cause' Black? May Zildrog smile upon you!

[Blackvinils]

Just dump the threads you want to follow into your subscription box, then you need not worry about finding them or how they're spelt!

 

---

 

I see you recruited some GMOD players to the 'great cause' Black? May Zildrog smile upon you!

 

May Zildrog (and our beloved Dark Empress Vaylin too:D) smile upon us all, Brother Paul

 

 

 

#BringBackVaylin

Edited May 16, 2018 by Blackvinils

[Kiesu]

IMO it's better to keep dead characters dead. We already have one immortal villain character in this universe and in this game, and that is enough.

 

We've all encountered this phenomena in various media. Character is presumed dead, then- TA DA!- by some miraculous feat/magic/loophole/bending of time and space the character turns out to be alive.

 

I never liked the whole just kidding, he aint actually dead trope in fiction. It feels like cheating, and removes the impact value from the story.

Not to say that every character revival ever written is cheating and should never be used- when handled well it can be a great way to connect with readers emotions during aftermath. But if you arent careful, character revivals can cheapen the death within the story, which usually ends up being the case.

 

When character revival trick is overdone, people start to expect it. Future character deaths become less meaningful. because players begin to anticipate that chances are, the character will be revived later on. When death becomes a concept that the player doesn't view as permanent state of character- it doesnt mean anything, and the whole impact of any future death scene is immediately reduced.

 

Even if the revival isnt overdone, it's very easy for a character to start feeling invincible. After all, they cant die. This is an issue many player characters are suffering from, they think they can do anything, because in videogame logic the player character is ultimately immortal for the sake of the player. This is why books in general have better stories overall, because the main character is not protected by plotarmor. You'll fear what will become of the main character in a book when met with overwhelming odds against their survival, because they might actually die, get crippled, be left traumatized and so on. If the player character is met with such conditions in a vidogame scene, chances are 99% of the time they'll come out of it without a scratch, because the story must go on and all that loot cant go to waste, right? You can see the difficulties of videogame writing right there.

 

But like I said, even though i enjoyed Vaylin a lot, revivals are something you have to be very careful with. You dont want to make your players feel cheated, and start expecting that any character at any time can be revived if they just yell enough about it.

So no, dont revive her. And don't revive Kephess either, pls

Edited May 16, 2018 by Kiesu

[Paulsutherland]

I suppose it all comes down to personal taste in the end.

 

Revival plots have never really bothered me, though in Vaylin's case after watching the Outlander and Theron survive the same wound and how KOTET ends, (Senya and Arcann return to their bodies) I think those who argue she could have survived and somehow returned to her body could be valid. However my opinion is obviously biased, so we'll need a second opinion. ( Or a third if I don't like the second )

 

As for Kephess, you will take your Kephess companion, you will like your Kephess companion! Then when he dies we'll go through the trouble of cloning said Kephess companion!

[Celise]

I suppose it all comes down to personal taste in the end.

 

Revival plots have never really bothered me, though in Vaylin's case after watching the Outlander and Theron survive the same wound and how KOTET ends, (Senya and Arcann return to their bodies) I think those who argue she could have survived and somehow returned to her body could be valid. However my opinion is obviously biased, so we'll need a second opinion. ( Or a third if I don't like the second )

 

As for Kephess, you will take your Kephess companion, you will like your Kephess companion! Then when he dies we'll go through the trouble of cloning said Kephess companion!

 

it depends if Vaylin learned the skill to jump hosts like Zash but without the side effects or if her force spirit can control her own voices and communicate in the physical realm (dependent on point of view of course).

[gamephil]

Revival plots have never really bothered me,

 

I think revival plots have to be very carefully thought about. Death needs to be meaningful. I think they should only be done if either the result is just amazing in some way or if the revival reverses a story that is so awful that it already robs that death of meaning. Much as I'd like her return to be simply amazing, I'd take it for that second thing in this case.

[Paulsutherland]

I think revival plots have to be very carefully thought about. Death needs to be meaningful. I think they should only be done if either the result is just amazing in some way or if the revival reverses a story that is so awful that it already robs that death of meaning. Much as I'd like her return to be simply amazing, I'd take it for that second thing in this case.

 

^^^^ What Brother Phil said!

 

it depends if Vaylin learned the skill to jump hosts like Zash but without the side effects or if her force spirit can control her own voices and communicate in the physical realm (dependent on point of view of course).

 

I was thinking more along the lines of this idea.

[Celise]

I was thinking more along the lines of this idea.

 

The biggest issue is that the idea in that linked doesn't have a direct connection to why Vaylin's body is able to become connected to the force in the first place. there is a lot of thought gone into how the body gets that treatment, but there isn't a direct connection as to why the force itself would be concerned to connect with a dead body and just revitalise it for vaylin and vaylin alone. This needs some explanation.

 

while it is a good thought, i had already considered an option like this but if it hasn't worked for countless people killed before connected to the force like Jedi and Sith, the ultimate question is why is vaylin the odd one, the special one to get such treatment? for that i don't have an answer because it goes outside believability where the force is concerned in lore.

Edited May 16, 2018 by Celise

[Paulsutherland]

The biggest issue is that the idea in that linked doesn't have a direct connection to why Vaylin's body is able to become connected to the force in the first place. there is a lot of thought gone into how the body gets that treatment, but there isn't a direct connection as to why the force itself would be concerned to connect with a dead body and just revitalise it for vaylin and vaylin alone. This needs some explanation.

 

while it is a good thought, i had already considered an option like this but if it hasn't worked for countless people killed before connected to the force like Jedi and Sith, the ultimate question is why is vaylin the odd one, the special one to get such treatment? for that i don't have an answer because it goes outside believability where the force is concerned in lore.

 

Odessen was perfectly balanced in the force, or so Satele said. Darth Marr said it had a will ... Maybe the Force did it for reasons beyond our comprehension?

 

Maybe the body isn't dead? Maybe her body is in a coma like state? while her essence is trapped within the Outlander?

 

None of the others were dumped into the Outlanders mind?

[banimoka]

IMO it's better to keep dead characters dead.

- KOTET should have given you the option for a diplomatic ending of the conflict

- BUT instead u got:

" be nice to Vaylin & kill her "

" be neutral to Vaylin & kill her"

"be mean to Vaylin & kill her"

 

- and what about Senya getting her daughter back

- and we redeemed Arcann already

[Celise]

Odessen was perfectly balanced in the force, or so Satele said. Darth Marr said it had a will ... Maybe the Force did it for reasons beyond our comprehension?

 

Maybe the body isn't dead? Maybe her body is in a coma like state? while her essence is trapped within the Outlander?

 

None of the others were dumped into the Outlanders mind?

 

the first part doesn't explain anything because regardless where in the galaxy the force is always there. Marr did state the force has a will but that is far removed from the idea the force itself is acting on purpose. Individuals on the outside use the force to affect a change, but i haven't seen it work the other way around.

 

The body is quite dead where Vaylin was stabbed/shot, plus the explosive force energy that could of fried every synapse and being forced out of the body and into the outlander could of permanently severed the body from the force spirit.

 

what needs to be established is how the body can be connected to the force. If vaylin is trapped in the mind of the outlander, then she would be unable to act, in addition her father is there and could manipulate her without a second thought. It would have to be outside valkorion's influence.

 

I'm thinking along the lines that she decides to leave the outlanders body, find her own body through in the force and then embue it to heal it back up and then have some complicated or simple means to re enter the body again. That would create a connection as to how the body is connected to the force and how it is being healed.

 

a second option is that the outlander touches vaylin's body on the shoulder after laying it down, sort of like a subconcious suggestion from Vaylin within the outlander that embues the body so it is connected to the force through the outlander like a relay for Vaylin within. Later on that day, the alliance officers see the body wounds have healed and when the outlander comes to check like Vaylin would expect, she suddenly jumps from the outlander to her own body and wakes up when she is within range.

[Kiesu]

- KOTET should have given you the option for a diplomatic ending of the conflict

- BUT instead u got:

" be nice to Vaylin & kill her "

" be neutral to Vaylin & kill her"

"be mean to Vaylin & kill her"

 

- and what about Senya getting her daughter back

- and we redeemed Arcann already

Not everyone in the real world can be reasoned with either. They will take what they want, bomb what they want, and justify it however they want.

Vaylin clearly had mental issues and these things cannot be fixed overnight, or months or in worst but in many cases, ever. Even though the game portrays the player character as the immortal hero of everything ever, lets atleast try to keep some things realistic.

Edited May 16, 2018 by Kiesu

[Blackvinils]

 

I'm thinking along the lines that she decides to leave the outlanders body, find her own body through in the force and then embue it to heal it back up and then have some complicated or simple means to re enter the body again. That would create a connection as to how the body is connected to the force and how it is being healed.

 

a second option is that the outlander touches vaylin's body on the shoulder after laying it down, sort of like a subconcious suggestion from Vaylin within the outlander that embues the body so it is connected to the force through the outlander like a relay for Vaylin within. Later on that day, the alliance officers see the body wounds have healed and when the outlander comes to check like Vaylin would expect, she suddenly jumps from the outlander to her own body and wakes up when she is within range.

 

If we consider the above options -

 

I think it would make sense to consider one of these thoughts for explanation.

 

Maybe it would be possible to use some elements from other "suggestion's" about the bonus mission

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=948876

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=932548

 

I suppouse, there is still a possibility that the idea of "resurrection" work. Or at least give an explanation, unlike the appearance of Darth Zash on Nathema (Although I may be there is something misunderstood)

 

 

#BringBackVaylin

Edited May 16, 2018 by Blackvinils

[Celise]

Interesting, if we consider the above options - I suppouse, there is still a possibility that the idea of "resurrection" work. Or at least give an explanation, unlike the appearance of Darth Zash on Nathema (Although I may be there is something misunderstood)

 

#BringBackVaylin

 

Could be a similar thing. Zash needed someone to access the Rakata mind prison on Taris and to "act out" with the promises of riches that if this Female Sith did as Zash asked, they would gain knowledge and power. For Zash it isn't outside her Bailiwick to do anything for a new host body. So the Sith does as Zash asks and instead fools the unfortunate owner by taking her body by forcing her spirit into the Host body and destroying the real personality in the process.

[Blackvinils]

Could be a similar thing. Zash needed someone to access the Rakata mind prison on Taris and to "act out" with the promises of riches that if this Female Sith did as Zash asked, they would gain knowledge and power. For Zash it isn't outside her Bailiwick to do anything for a new host body. So the Sith does as Zash asks and instead fools the unfortunate owner by taking her body by forcing her spirit into the Host body and destroying the real personality in the process.

 

So... i suppouse, we need to identify the following key points -

 

1 - To create a connection as to how the body is connected to the force and how it is being healed. (you mentioned it earlier);

2 - The problem with the healing of Vaylin's body , proceeding again from the first paragraph, so that the explanation looked holistic;

3 - Perhaps, Using a similar situation as with Zash.

This would probably give an explanation of how Vaylin could have survived ( but again, if Outlander could have been involved in the process, it might have been easier) :rak_02:

 

Because if there is still a chance for a competent explanation why Vaylin may suddenly be alive again, but in such a way that it does not spoil the story\ lore that once there is such a way, the importance of death is abolished, it is worth taking advantage of these chances.

 

It could also give -

 

1 -To Vaylin a "second chance" , which would result in a final, real choice, about her. This kind of thing could be a compensation (but again, in the case of its popularity, otherwise discussions about it didn't accumulate so much thoughts);

2 - The real opportunity to get her as a companion to those who did not want to kill her;

3 - Another interesting narrative related to Force;

 

 

#BringBackVaylin

Edited May 16, 2018 by Blackvinils

[Paulsutherland]

lets atleast try to keep some things realistic.

 

Like the Outlander and now Theron being stabbed through the torso and surviving?

 

Could be a similar thing. Zash needed someone to access the Rakata mind prison on Taris and to "act out" with the promises of riches that if this Female Sith did as Zash asked, they would gain knowledge and power. For Zash it isn't outside her Bailiwick to do anything for a new host body. So the Sith does as Zash asks and instead fools the unfortunate owner by taking her body by forcing her spirit into the Host body and destroying the real personality in the process.

 

Sounds like a good way to rid myself of Lana!

[gamephil]

Like the Outlander and now Theron being stabbed through the torso and surviving?

 

Realistically, Arcann would be languishing in a cell, assuming he lived, but I don't mind him not being because people want him around. I'm entirely OK with Vaylin's being able to return not being realistic. Honestly, with the build up she got, her being dead from a wound that Theron lived through is pretty unrealistic, and more annoying to me than a recovery.

Edited May 16, 2018 by gamephil

[gamephil]

What I find interesting in these discussions is that I, at least, don't want to force anyone into a story they don't want. They feel Vaylin is a monster that deserved to die? They feel that she was a tragic figure but the story was good? Or that maybe it wasn't good but it would be unrealistic to overturn it? Great, they should have those options. I feel like she was a potentially good character that was wasted in a pretty contempt worthy story, but one that has several avenues for her to return. Especially in a universe with lightning from our fingertips and millennia old emperors that eat planets, a universe she is supposed to be extraordinary in. I don't see why that's a problem. She just needs an explanation in the same way that several guys before her got one.

 

Now, you want to argue that business wise giving us that option may not be feasible? You might be right. Maybe it really is only a few people that care at all. That's perfectly fair, if so. But I don't know.

Edited May 16, 2018 by gamephil

[Kiesu]

Like the Outlander and now Theron being stabbed through the torso and surviving?

Right. Lets analyze how they get stabbed.

In the scene that Theron gets stabbed, we dont actually see if the blade even goes trough or not. It's not in the shot. But what we can see is he is getting stabbed somewhere to his lower back, because in the scene Theron's torso is fully visible, but the blade thrusts a lot lower and bellow the camera's range. So he isnt getting stabbed in the chest like Vaylin, you are much more likely to survive a stab trough the stomach than the chest. But the stabbing of Theron is not the best example to be giving here anyway since we have no visual evidence of the severity of his wound.

 

In the shot we have Vaylin die, the PC clearly pierces her body (trough lower part of her rib cage) and the blade comes back out of her back very clearly. The viewer can immediately tell the severity of her wound from this scene, and she doesnt even collapse from shock like Theron did, she strait up drops dead after a spasm.

Edited May 17, 2018 by Kiesu

[Paulsutherland]

Snip.

 

We also see her get shot twice. Once by Scorpio, another by a droid on Iokath, and she manages to shrug it off otherwise unaffected.

 

If we're going to argue details ... What about

then? (Scion from KOTFE - Chapter 8) He get's stabbed through the back by Arcann and is being taken away by Knights before he dies. (presumably to be taken captive?)

 

Snip.

 

Not just Theron, the Outlander and I forgot about the Scion dude (see above). I think realism went out the window with KOTET, Iokath and this traitor plot.

 

All it requires is a bit of creativity and imagination ... or the magic console on Odessen!

 

(From Black)

Here are some more thoughts -

The point is that the ideas that we have published only partially answer one or another question about Vaylin, but other, more important, pop-up arguments remain open.

 

I think if you put the choice at the beginning of the Chapter, and then develop the events in accordance with the choice made, the idea will work + Outlander takes full part in this or that case - it can be an option. I guess that's why the idea worked with Arcann and the consequences of the choices made at the beginning of KOTET are arranged in that order. The problem was that Outlander did not take a personal part in the formation of Arcann on "light".

 

However, in the case of a bonus Chapter on her for , respectively, Outlander takes a direct part in ( again, I repeat) or return Vaylin to her body - the resurrection - receive a non-story companion, or in the liberation of her spirit with the further merge with the Force.

Edited May 17, 2018 by Paulsutherland

[gamephil]

Not just Theron, the Outlander and I forgot about the Scion dude (see above). I think realism went out the window with KOTET, Iokath and this traitor plot.

 

Yeah, but I only mention Theron because he's the one that really the explanation is pure Plot Armor. Heskal (the Scion)l at least has Force powers, the Outlander had Valkorion healing them, etc. etc. Theron living through that while Vaylin didn't is the one that grates the most, and that's coming from someone that wants him to live.

 

To be fair, similar injuries can have wildly different effects in reality, but for this story, after everything else, it just makes the whole thing that little bit worse.

Edited May 17, 2018 by gamephil

[Kiesu]

We also see her get shot twice. Once by Scorpio, another by a droid on Iokath, and she manages to shrug it off otherwise unaffected.

 

If we're going to argue details ... What about

then? (Scion from KOTFE - Chapter 8) He get's stabbed through the back by Arcann and is being taken away by Knights before he dies. (presumably to be taken captive?)

I'm pretty sure it was you who wanted to argue details, I'm just inspecting the details in your argument

 

Yeah. Heskel died. Just like Vaylin. It's just look longer. What's your point?

People are perfectly capable of surviving bullet wounds. The deciding factor are; Where did the bullet hit? Was there vital organs hit? How many? Did the foreign object exit the body or stay inside? Was there medical attention available? How fast was the medical attention able to intervene?

 

If you were unfortunate enough to get hit and have your liver and lung ruptured for example, two vital organs very close to each-other in the lower rib cage area, you'd have tops 5 minutes to live without medical attention, and your body would likely fall in a shock from pain for the duration. If the blow goes an inch lower, you'll hit the stomach which is considerably easier rupture to survive, or an inch higher puncturing just a lung, same deal.

 

The position where Heskel gets stabbed is different than the location of the bloodstain on his armor in later scene, so it's difficult to say what got hit very accurately. The bloodstain implies a lung, but the stabbing during animation was at the almost middle of his chest where his heart should have been. So either by animation he would have collapsed almost immediately by getting his heart destroyed, or he would have had a while to live by his bloodstain location on his lung. Now, lung collapse would have made speaking extremely difficult so there was some movie magic taking place here.

But again, we only have the one image of Vaylin getting stabbed so there isnt much space to speculate what got hit.

Edited May 17, 2018 by Kiesu

[Paulsutherland]

What's your point?

 

Realism is irrelevant here, with common sense shadowing behind.

 

 

Now, I've been promoted to the Order of Zildrog Mailman

 

From: Blackvinils

To: ????

 

The point is that we build our ideas about the bonus Chapter, focusing on the fact that the choice will be made at the end of the Chapter. This is partly the reason why there are such questions about the logic of\ lore and so on..

 

I'll explain-almost all of our ideas lead to Vaylin being resurrected first, and then choosing what to do with it. That is, the emphasis is on the resurrection, as an invariable part of the plot of the bonus Chapter-hence the questions \ problems

 

But! What if we change the very structure of our ideas? I mean, the choice will not be at the end, but at the beginning (as a basis) and then, based on this, depending on the player's actions throughout the Chapter, there will be a difference in the endings.

 

For example -

 

Here is a diagram of the structures of our ideas -

 

Introduction - exposition\action - resurrection - the selection - the result

 

But the" changed " structure of ideas -

 

Introduction - exposition\select - action - result

 

Result:

 

Depending on the player's selective actions throughout the Chapter, rather than at its end, it may happen that:

 

A-Vaylin is alive (we get non-story companion)

 

B - Vaylin is dead, but her spirit is free and she merged with the force (this is the option, that people who were not agree with us were talking about)

 

If the narrative of the bonus Chapter was based on such a scheme, then would people agree to this?

 

BlackMan

I thought it might work because it worked in the selection with Arcann - we chose his fate not through Him already in Chapter 6 of KOTET, but in Chapter 1 of KOTET, THROUGH his MOTHER - that's where the difference is, partly so it worked.

 

In addition, if you connect the time allotted to him in Chapter 1 and 6 just get some structure, as a result of which the choice worked and was introduced to the game in this way.