A plea to the SWTOR community

[MuriaBR]

I'd like to take the moment since people are already bringing up the current events with Battlefront 2 to make a humble request to the SWTOR community:

 

As most of you must be aware, after the massive downvote over a reply from the community staff at the official BF 2 Reddit, the situation escalated to the point where EA had to make a couple of steps back in their microtransactions and lootboxes system in the game, the latests being a temporaly removal of said system.

 

This is a small but temporaly victory as and the signs are already showing.

 

This ain't the time to call victory, we still need to keep pushing them until they make balantly clear what the changes wont influence progress and are only cosmetic, even then I'm still one to belive they NEED to fail in their sales, they NEED to be made a example of. Some of you are already playing the game to your heart's content, but you all falling into a trap and this will backfire on you later down the line, understand that regardless of your emotional condition or your position in all this, you only contributing o keep greedy and amoral scumbags on the top who will keep exploiting you and those around you until there is nothing left.

 

I know it's not a easy request to make but please do NOT give EA any more of your money, if those changes that recently happen is any indication, we can also do the same for SWTOR, the situation with the APEC players is a clear indication of where this game is heading, I'm more then inclined to belive they've made the same move they did with BF2 by making the ''Outrage Outdated'' and if we keep accepting this we might see this game gone and all will be for nought.

 

Star Wars has a GLOBAL following and as a brazillian myself (guess the BR make this ballantly clear heh) I am doing what I can to provide awareness on the situation and making sure this issue is heard for those who like me enjoy gamming, the results are clear

 

Do not let the Empire Strike back and win this war.

 

 

EDIT: Belgium and Hawaii confirming Battlefront 2 indeed has gambling.

Edited November 22, 2017 by MuriaBR
Orthographic Correction and Clarification on recent events.

[jedip_enguin]

I find your earnest appeal amusing.

[omaan]

It is not a win. The fact that they decided to close this microtransactions right before official start of the game just proves that they are scared that these pay2win crap will draw away their first players, and everyone knows that first influence together with first impact and weeks of a new game are very important. What iam trying to say is that a start of the game is very important and definitely will impact it's future. EA got scared of what is happening at their start and with hurry decided to make a trap for their players by "removing microtransactions". But it is a trap because when they get enough players in bf2 with making a great start they will instantly return back these microtransactions which will provide p2win.

 

There is noting to discuss really... Every game which has any in-game purchases which influence the actual game play and balance apart from cosmetic things DOESNT DESERVE TO HAVE ANY PLAYERS. And will fail eventually.

[MuriaBR]

It is not a win. The fact that they decided to close this microtransactions right before official start of the game just proves that they are scared that these pay2win crap will draw away their first players, and everyone knows that first influence together with first impact and weeks of a new game are very important. What iam trying to say is that a start of the game is very important and definitely will impact it's future. EA got scared of what is happening at their start and with hurry decided to make a trap for their players by "removing microtransactions". But it is a trap because when they get enough players in bf2 with making a great start they will instantly return back these microtransactions which will provide p2win.

 

There is noting to discuss really... Every game which has any in-game purchases which influence the actual game play and balance apart from cosmetic things DOESNT DESERVE TO HAVE ANY PLAYERS. And will fail eventually.

 

But thats the exact point... they are scared and backpedaling, for them to do the current changes is a a TEMPORALY victory for the community, but as I stated and linked, they are planning to bring it back and still exploit players progression rather then hear the community demands.

 

And yes, evry game who has in game purchases which influence the actual gameplay and balance apart from cosmetics don't deserve to have their players, hence why the community isn't backing down from this fight yet, it is worth the discussion here too, SPECIALY considering we are in a game who is also suffering from these pratices.

Edited November 17, 2017 by MuriaBR

[Kheld]

Ive been following this debacle for the last few weeks. EA have temporarily pulled the lootboxes for this reason;

 

The boss of Disney apparently called & said something. Whether it was "your generating massive amounts of negative publicity, we dont want our film affected" or "pull the system or lose your licence", whatever he said, the Lootbox system got pulled very quickly afterwards.

 

The Gambling Commissions of the Governments of Belgium & Holland have apparently started investigations into Battlefront 2 and Overwatch to see if their lootcrate systems are gambling. I HOPE they find that they are, and all companies involved in these disgusting systems to milk players get heavily fined.

 

It would not surprise me if the EU itself got involved in this, they would like nothing more than another big stick to bash American multinationals with.

 

Ofc, SWOTORS Hypercrates are also an example of this. Given the RANDOM nature of the rewards, some of which have very high ingame value & most of which do NOT, I bet (no pun intended) that these will eventually be considered gambling, and fines will ensue.

[DieAlteHexe]

Ive been following this debacle for the last few weeks. EA have temporarily pulled the lootboxes for this reason;

 

The boss of Disney apparently called & said something. Whether it was "your generating massive amounts of negative publicity, we dont want our film affected" or "pull the system or lose your licence", whatever he said, the Lootbox system got pulled very quickly afterwards.

 

The Gambling Commissions of the Governments of Belgium & Holland have apparently started investigations into Battlefront 2 and Overwatch to see if their lootcrate systems are gambling. I HOPE they find that they are, and all companies involved in these disgusting systems to milk players get heavily fined.

 

It would not surprise me if the EU itself got involved in this, they would like nothing more than another big stick to bash American multinationals with.

 

Ofc, SWOTORS Hypercrates are also an example of this. Given the RANDOM nature of the rewards, some of which have very high ingame value & most of which do NOT, I bet (no pun intended) that these will eventually be considered gambling, and fines will ensue.

 

Guess they need to look into this then...

[Tsillah]

Guess they need to look into this then...

Is that really the same as? https://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2016/06/10/the-math-behind-why-overwatchs-loot-boxes-are-exhausting-to-unlock/#992c8b52adfe

[fatsi]

You are right. Everyone has to stop paying massive companies before they start owning their own armies.

 

However, what happened with BF2 was not a victory for us, but a victory for EA. It is just "the take 4 steps to take 3 steps" approach in sociology. (Not really.) To take 3 steps forward, you basically take 4 steps forward, and then take 1 back WHEN you get all the negativity you can get. (Notice it is 'when' and not 'if') Then, all the people love you for all the steps that you took. Unless overused, it is always effective.

 

The best thing about this is that it is applicable to every social situation.

 

You are a teacher who wants to give a low score to a particular student? Give him an even lower score. When he comes bragging, grant him the score you initially wanted to give.

 

You are a singer who wants to be influential in fashion by wearing weird clothes? Wear even more weird clothes. When people start calling you stupid, start wearing a little less weird clothes.

 

You are a politician who wants to give a 30% raise to a particular tax? Give a 45% raise. When people come protesting and insulting, drop it to 30%.

 

Don't ask for permission. Ask for forgiveness.

Edited November 18, 2017 by fatsi

[DieAlteHexe]

Is that really the same as? https://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2016/06/10/the-math-behind-why-overwatchs-loot-boxes-are-exhausting-to-unlock/#992c8b52adfe

 

Yup. Difference is the amount of money involved. You buy a Kinder Egg (crate) with no idea what's in it. Well, aside from the general "theme" (just as in game).

 

Same diff. Only size and amount of money differs. So, lots and lots of kids are gambling their little hearts out.

 

I honestly think this is silly. When you gamble, you stand to get nothing...zip, zilch. When you buy crates you will get something, albeit not necessarily what you want.

 

In either case, eggs or crates, if not getting exactly what you want/hope for is an issue, don't buy them.

[Tsillah]

Yup. Difference is the amount of money involved. You buy a Kinder Egg (crate) with no idea what's in it. Well, aside from the general "theme" (just as in game).

 

Same diff. Only size and amount of money differs. So, lots and lots of kids are gambling their little hearts out.

 

I honestly think this is silly. When you gamble, you stand to get nothing...zip, zilch. When you buy crates you will get something, albeit not necessarily what you want.

 

In either case, eggs or crates, if not getting exactly what you want/hope for is an issue, don't buy them.

I do believe these Kinder Eggs are actually forbidden in the US albeit for different reasons.

 

You're right about the money difference but there is something more to it. It's also about frequency or how big the chance is to get the specific item you want compared to the price you pay. At least with a Kinder Egg you get to eat chocolate which is something you want anyway. Also gaming takes up a lot more time in your life than eating a Kinder Egg so it has a much bigger impact.

 

I see it a bit like medicine. A lot of medication is beneficial in small amounts but in larger amounts it's actually poisonous and can harm you. That's why the size does matter in this case (no pun intended). How much money you spend on it does matter and has a bigger impact on your life.

 

Here's another interesting article http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2017-10-11-are-loot-boxes-gambling

 

Now I remember playing Magic The Gathering, a collectible card game and there are some definite similarities but there are also significant differences. For example, each booster pack of cards were guaranteed to drop a rare card and there were more cards in it than a cartel pack drops items. Standard booster packs had 15 cards if I remember right and they were all cards. Effectively you knew that you were collecting a set of cards (and nothing else) and by spending a couple hundred on booster packs ( a fair amount of money) and a bit of trading you would be able to complete the set. The RNG was limited and in spite of that here were already concerns there.

 

Now we take the cartel packs and we see that the sets of items are quite small and they throw in filler items to give the illusion of rewards. Just saying that you get rewards even if it's not the ones you wanted isn't an argument for items that are filler and are simply deleted or have virtually no value. Armour set items that sell for 4k on the GTN for example I do not see as a reward. Also we're not collecting a set of items like with kinder eggs or collectible cards.

 

The cartel packs are there to encourage spending for the sake of spending. People may want a few items out of the set but they aren't interested necessarily interested in collecting. Sure some people are but mostly people buy them to get that really rare platinum item to either sell for many credits or to have. Everything else is just fluff, filler and may net a few credits but nothing that compares.

 

And then there is one final thing that is very different. If I buy collectible cards or Kinder Egggs or anything else that is about collecting, I own them. They are mine. However, this is an online game, a service. And this means that I own nothing, I only buy the right to use these items for as long as EA sees fit to continue the service. When Kinder Eggs or Magic go out of business, I still own the items. When SWTOR goes bust I own nothing. So for that reason alone I have to disagree that cartel packs always give rewards. They are virtual rewards and they are not yours to keep, just to use for an unspecified amount of time but at a rather exorbitant rate as well.

 

I know some people like to say that it's "just cosmetics" but I think that's one of the greatest misconceptions out there. Cosmetics is big business and is very meaningful to a lot of people. Owning that Darth Malgus armour or Senya Lightsaber does feel like a win. Now maybe it's not pay2win, but it's certainly pay2enjoy and even though I think it's fair to pay for something, there have to be limits or it becomes a wilful and immoral exploitation of human psychology.

 

BF2 has gotten a lot of criticism and it looks like even Disney is behind this pulling of microtransactions for the time being. EA really hasn't got much to show for their SW license and they were all hell bent on this online service with microtransactions deal. I specifically did not order BF2 for this reason. I stopped buying cartel packs (yeah I was a sucker before) well over a year ago because of this reason and I will be very surprised if the SW game that was being made by Visceral will be a game I buy or Anthem. Simply because these things are all along the same patterns and EA smelled money in that system and went full out on it. Considering the BF2 situation that may have been a...well, a wrong gamble

 

I certainly hope so because my opinion is that they've gone way too far with these loot crates to the point it's become poisonous rather than beneficial or even fun.

 

Just my views but that's how I see it.

Edited November 18, 2017 by Tsillah

[DieAlteHexe]

I do believe these Kinder Eggs are actually forbidden in the US albeit for different reasons.

 

...

 

I certainly hope so because my opinion is that they've gone way too far with these loot crates to the point it's become poisonous rather than beneficial or even fun.

 

Just my views but that's how I see it.

 

Yes. "Small parts" and yet...McDonalds and their Happy Meals. Go figure.

 

I just don't see the fuss. At all. Buy or don't. It's not gambling because you will receive something. Now, I'd be 100% behind the "gambling" concern if there was even a remote chance that you could buy crates that might end up having utterly nothing in them. But that's not the case.

 

Ah well, I leave y'all to fussing over this. I think it's a tempest in a teapot, easily dealt with (don't buy them).

[Tsillah]

Yes. "Small parts" and yet...McDonalds and their Happy Meals. Go figure.

 

I just don't see the fuss. At all. Buy or don't. It's not gambling because you will receive something. Now, I'd be 100% behind the "gambling" concern if there was even a remote chance that you could buy crates that might end up having utterly nothing in them. But that's not the case.

 

Ah well, I leave y'all to fussing over this. I think it's a tempest in a teapot, easily dealt with (don't buy them).

 

That 's quite an oversimplification of human psychology. I think if it's like that for you, then I have to conclude that we have nothing to discuss on this topic and so I'll stop discussing this with you as well. It won't lead anywhere positive I'm sure.

[ravedark]

It's already ridiculous when a $60 game has loot boxes, now they're even trying to make them P2W. People don't understand that just a few years ago all of this would have sounded completely ridiculous. Give EA an inch and they'll take a mile. I'd rather not have every new Star Wars game turn into some exploitative gambling wallet farm with... Even if someone doesn't understand what exactly the problem is, they should fight this if they're a true Star Wars fan, or suffer the consequences of future business models.

[YlliyaXor]

Guess they need to look into this then...

 

You forgot the part about Kinder Eggs being discontinued in many markets.

[Elorhir]

It's strange the way things have turned out over the years. When I was younger playing on the NES I didn't think about Loot boxes or special things like Call of Duty or any of them did. Gaming seems to of lost its purity along the way in that area. I think back then people were just interested in making good games. I think EA is one of the more guilty parties in this area at least of making games for a profit over for their fanbase. I do agree that they need to understand this isn't a temporary situation. This is something they need to address going forward and in all their future projects. Because the people who pay money for their products no matter the version don't deserve to get screwed. I'd already made the call not to buy BF 2. Simply because I'd had a bad feeling and my wallet was a bit empty. But figured I'd post my two sense here for whatever they were worth.

[Damask_Rose]

I do believe these Kinder Eggs are actually forbidden in the US albeit for different reasons.

 

You're right about the money difference but there is something more to it. It's also about frequency or how big the chance is to get the specific item you want compared to the price you pay. At least with a Kinder Egg you get to eat chocolate which is something you want anyway. Also gaming takes up a lot more time in your life than eating a Kinder Egg so it has a much bigger impact.

 

I see it a bit like medicine. A lot of medication is beneficial in small amounts but in larger amounts it's actually poisonous and can harm you. That's why the size does matter in this case (no pun intended). How much money you spend on it does matter and has a bigger impact on your life.

 

Here's another interesting article http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2017-10-11-are-loot-boxes-gambling

 

Now I remember playing Magic The Gathering, a collectible card game and there are some definite similarities but there are also significant differences. For example, each booster pack of cards were guaranteed to drop a rare card and there were more cards in it than a cartel pack drops items. Standard booster packs had 15 cards if I remember right and they were all cards. Effectively you knew that you were collecting a set of cards (and nothing else) and by spending a couple hundred on booster packs ( a fair amount of money) and a bit of trading you would be able to complete the set. The RNG was limited and in spite of that here were already concerns there.

 

Now we take the cartel packs and we see that the sets of items are quite small and they throw in filler items to give the illusion of rewards. Just saying that you get rewards even if it's not the ones you wanted isn't an argument for items that are filler and are simply deleted or have virtually no value. Armour set items that sell for 4k on the GTN for example I do not see as a reward. Also we're not collecting a set of items like with kinder eggs or collectible cards.

 

The cartel packs are there to encourage spending for the sake of spending. People may want a few items out of the set but they aren't interested necessarily interested in collecting. Sure some people are but mostly people buy them to get that really rare platinum item to either sell for many credits or to have. Everything else is just fluff, filler and may net a few credits but nothing that compares.

 

And then there is one final thing that is very different. If I buy collectible cards or Kinder Egggs or anything else that is about collecting, I own them. They are mine. However, this is an online game, a service. And this means that I own nothing, I only buy the right to use these items for as long as EA sees fit to continue the service. When Kinder Eggs or Magic go out of business, I still own the items. When SWTOR goes bust I own nothing. So for that reason alone I have to disagree that cartel packs always give rewards. They are virtual rewards and they are not yours to keep, just to use for an unspecified amount of time but at a rather exorbitant rate as well.

 

I know some people like to say that it's "just cosmetics" but I think that's one of the greatest misconceptions out there. Cosmetics is big business and is very meaningful to a lot of people. Owning that Darth Malgus armour or Senya Lightsaber does feel like a win. Now maybe it's not pay2win, but it's certainly pay2enjoy and even though I think it's fair to pay for something, there have to be limits or it becomes a wilful and immoral exploitation of human psychology.

 

BF2 has gotten a lot of criticism and it looks like even Disney is behind this pulling of microtransactions for the time being. EA really hasn't got much to show for their SW license and they were all hell bent on this online service with microtransactions deal. I specifically did not order BF2 for this reason. I stopped buying cartel packs (yeah I was a sucker before) well over a year ago because of this reason and I will be very surprised if the SW game that was being made by Visceral will be a game I buy or Anthem. Simply because these things are all along the same patterns and EA smelled money in that system and went full out on it. Considering the BF2 situation that may have been a...well, a wrong gamble

 

I certainly hope so because my opinion is that they've gone way too far with these loot crates to the point it's become poisonous rather than beneficial or even fun.

 

Just my views but that's how I see it.

 

 

Magic the Gathering is more similar to loot boxes than you are giving it credit for. (Aside from physical vs. virtual that I hadn't thought about.) Yes, one pack will get you a rare, but rares aren't of equal desirability. Rares that are sought after for competitive game play are much more valuable than trash rares that only collectors want. And then there are mythic rares which have a much smaller chance of being in the pack. And then on top of that there are foils. One MTG site lists the odds of a foil mythic rare to be 1 in 3,456. So a trash normal rare might only be worth a dollar or two, but a competitive foil rare can be worth hundreds.

Edited November 18, 2017 by Damask_Rose

[MuriaBR]

Ah well, I leave y'all to fussing over this. I think it's a tempest in a teapot, easily dealt with (don't buy them).

 

Yup...totaly a tempest in a teapot...

Edited November 18, 2017 by MuriaBR

[DieAlteHexe]

You forgot the part about Kinder Eggs being discontinued in many markets.

 

Which has nothing to do with gambling and everything to do with "small parts".

 

I don't think there's a concern over people choking on crates in SWTOR.

[DieAlteHexe]

 

 

Magic the Gathering is more similar to loot boxes than you are giving it credit for. (Aside from physical vs. virtual that I hadn't thought about.) Yes, one pack will get you a rare, but rares aren't of equal desirability. Rares that are sought after for competitive game play are much more valuable than trash rares that only collectors want. And then there are mythic rares which have a much smaller chance of being in the pack. And then on top of that there are foils. One MTG site lists the odds of a foil mythic rare to be 1 in 3,456. So a trash normal rare might only be worth a dollar or two, but a competitive foil rare can be worth hundreds.

 

I was just about to ask a friend who is into these about this. You saved me the effort, thanks!

[lironBD]

 

Do not let the Empire Strike back and win this war.

 

You lost me there....

[MuriaBR]

Which has nothing to do with gambling and everything to do with "small parts".

 

I don't think there's a concern over people choking on crates in SWTOR.

 

Do you even understand what the outrage was about ?

[MuriaBR]

You lost me there....

 

EAmprie, sorry, should've elaborate there

[DieAlteHexe]

Do you even understand what the outrage was about ?

 

I've read the concerns, yup. Understand it? Yup. Agree? Eh...not really.

[Tahana]

If you let one P2W model succeed you'll see the floodgates open for other games to make the change. I haven't and won't purchase the game until such a time that P2W isn't an option.

[Joonbeams]

I don't play this game - don't know anything about it really. But I read the links and I'm just fascinated and IMPRESSED at this response from DICE. Call it PR, call it stalling, call it a stunt, whatever - THIS is simply a smart, empathetic way to engage with your player base. For this reason alone, I will likely buy this game.

 

I wish, just once, we could get a response like this here:

 

"Thank you to everyone in our community for being the passionate fans that you are.

 

Our goal has always been to create the best possible game for all of you – devoted Star Wars fans and game players alike. We’ve also had an ongoing commitment to constantly listen, tune and evolve the experience as it grows. You’ve seen this with both the major adjustments, and polish, we have made over the past several weeks.

 

But as we approach the worldwide launch, it's clear that many of you feel there are still challenges in the design. We’ve heard the concerns about potentially giving players unfair advantages. And we’ve heard that this is overshadowing an otherwise great game. This was never our intention. Sorry we didn’t get this right.

 

We hear you loud and clear, so we’re turning off all in-game purchases. We will now spend more time listening, adjusting, balancing and tuning. This means that the option to purchase crystals in the game is now offline, and all progression will be earned through gameplay. The ability to purchase crystals in-game will become available at a later date, only after we’ve made changes to the game. We’ll share more details as we work through this.

 

We have created a game that is built on your input, and it will continue to evolve and grow. Star Wars Battlefront II is three times the size of the previous game, bringing to life a brand new Star Wars story, space battles, epic new multiplayer experiences across all three Star Wars eras, with more free content to come. We want you to enjoy it, so please keep your thoughts coming. And we will keep you updated on our progress."

 

To be clear, this is more than words. This is words, gathered from listening to player feedback, followed by action -- it shows a respect for the consumers of their game. This isn't hard to do. This also shows that the "stranglehold" some assume EA has over its in house teams may not be as strong as advertised - BW itself could smooth over a lot of negative PR simply by listening and showing some humility as the DICE team did here. Well done!