Exocor Posted November 7, 2017 Share Posted November 7, 2017 (edited) So, after several months of doing mostly all 16man stuff with our group, I decided to give a short feedback about the current state of scaling/balancing of the current NiM-bosses, with respect to the ops with HM as their highest level of difficulty. Eternity Vault / Karaggas Palace: Nothing to say here. Haven't done them in months. Explosive Conflict/Denova: First boss: Zorn & Toth 8m: Very good balanced in 8man for a first NiM-boss. Decent DPS and healer-check, tank-swap mechanics. 16m: A bit overtuned. DPS-check is a bit tighter, but all in all doable. Very painful for melee-dps and much easier with rDPS. Zorn does an outstanding amount of damage - we had two healers having constantly just healing the particular tank and themselves. Toth on the other hand does not mich damage. Leader Murdok is definitely scaled wrong. He does a random 150k hit ("electro dart") every ~10 seconds, one-hitting someone. Suggestions: Move dtps from zorn to toth and reduce it overall by ~10%. Reduce the damage done by toth (and all other AoE and fake-AoE stuff in this fight) by 20%. Reduce the damage done by Leader Murdok's Electro Dart down to 70k. (all 16man) Second boss: Firebrand & Stormcaller 8m: DPS-check is very tight. Cheeseable with reflect-classes. Damage done by both tanks is good. 16m: DPS-check is a joke. In 8man, the enrage-timer is at 6:20. In 16man, we played until 7:40 and nothing happened. Damage done by Stormcaller is a bit too much. Suggestions: Tune down the damage done by Stormcaller by ~10%. Put the enrage timer at 7:30. (all 16man) Third boss: Minefield & Colonel Vorgath 8m: Pretty well tuned. DPS-checks are tight, but to tight. 16m: Mining probes have the same health as in 8m [bug]. Damage done by Colonel Vorgath is way too much. We had two healers just spamming overheal on me after he globaled me in our previous trys. One series of Rapid shots does 80k damage. Enrage timer of Colonel Vorgath is too tight. Suggestion: Decrease the damage done by Vorgath, increase the range of the turrets by 10m, add 20 seconds on the enrage timer. (all 16man) Fourth boss: Kephess & Walker 8m: Damage check is tight, but not undoable for normal groups. Damage done by Kephess is a bit overtuned. 16m: Damage check on the walker is as tight as in 8man. Not because of enrage timer (not the same as in 8m) but because of Kephess himself reaching enrage, when you are not able to down it with 4 baradium-bombs. Kephess is as painful as in 8m. Suggestion: Tune down the damage done by Kephess by ~10% (just 8man - in 16m you have 3 tanks, so 50% more dcd's). Terror from Beyond/Asation: Nothing to say here. We haven't done Asation in 16m until now, it's planned for in two weeks. Scum and Villany/Darvannis: First boss: Dash'rode 8man&16man: It's trash. No problems to beat it. Suggestion: Buff the damage done by the boss or the adds HP. (8m and 16m) Second boss: Titan 6 8man: All checks are very medium. 16man: Same as in 8man. There is enough room to not stand in others during many rockets. Suggestion: Buff the damage done by adds and/or boss. Make the overal dps-check a bit tighter by adjusting the enrage timer, so that the boss goes enrage after fourth start. (8m and 16m) Third boss: Thrasher 8man: Adds are very painfull. Boss is very painful. Damage check is not tight, but not to easy. 16man: Adds are still panfull. Boss is still painfull. No damage check on the boss. Suggestion: Reduce the enrage timer in 8man by 30 seconds. Adjust the enrage-timer of 16man the same value as in 8man. Reduce the damage done by the adds by ~15%. Fourth boss: Operations chief 8man: All groups are well tuned. There is a DPS-check at operations-chief, but not to tight. 16man: All groups are a bit too weak. We haven't found out anything about a DPS-check in 16man. Suggestion: Buff the HP of all groups by ~20% in 16m. Adjust HP and Enrage Timer of Operations chief to be on the same level as in 8man. Fifth boss: Olok, the shadow 8man: It's a joke. Only Olok himself does a bit of damage. No damage-check here. 16man: Don't remember any problems, the last time we visited Olok. Suggestion: Reduce the enrage timer of Olok by 1:30m in 8man. Adjust the HP and Enrage Timer of Olok to be on the same level in 16man as in 8man. 6th boss: Cartel Warlords 8man: Very well balanced. Damage check is a bit to easy. 16man: For a NiM-boss, it's good balanced. However, it's hard, compared to 8man. Horrics cleave is very painful. The rest is the same as in 8man. Suggestion: Reduce the enrage timer in 8man by 40 seconds. Adjust the HP and Enrage Timer, to be on the same level in 16man as in 8man. Reduce the damage done by Horrics random cleave by 20% in 16man. 7th boss: Dread Master Styrak 8man: Not as balanced as in previous patches as far as I know. The enrage timer is somewhere far beyond 20 minutes. When you have enough damage, to deal with the Chain Manifestation, you won't reach enrage. 16man: Damage check at the Chain Manifestation is very very tight. We went there with 6 VG-DPS and played the double-shadow/sage-knockback-tactic to maintain maximum uptime and it was still very tight. Damage on Styrak is still unexistent. Adds in phase doesn't have much HP. Suggestion: Put the enrage timer at 17m from the Kell Dragons spawn (8man). Put the enrage timer at 15m from the Kell Dragons spawn (16man). Increase the adds HP in phase one by 50% (16man). Reduce the Chain Manifestatons hitpoints by 15% (16man). Dread Fortress First boss: Nefra 8man: Welcome to story-mode... oh, wait. That's a NiM-boss? 16man: see: 8man Suggestion: Put the enrage timer at 3:30 minutes. Second boss: Draxus 8man: Very well tuned. Maybe the damage check is a bit too easy. 16man: A bit too easy in 16man. Suggestion: Reduce the enrage timer by 30 seconds (8man). Increase all adds HP by 20% (16man), increase the boss HP by 15% (16man). Adjust the enrage timer in 16man, to be on an equal level as in 8man. Third boss: Grob'thok 8man: When you know, what to do, it's easy. Damage check is okay, maybe a bit too easy. 16man: As easy as in 8man. Suggestion: Reduce the enrage timer in 8man by 30 seconds, adjust the 16man-enrage timer/boss HP to be on an equal level. Increase the damage done by the adds by 50% (8man) / 100% (16man). Increase the adds HP by 30% (16man). Fourth boss: Corrupter Zero 8man: Very well tuned. No enrage timer here? 16man: A bit too easy compared to 8man. Also no enrage timer? Suggestion: Increase the damage done by the adds by 50% (16man). Increase the Adds HP by 15% (16man). Add an enrage timer of 6:45m to 8man. Adjust the enrage timer in 16man to be on an equal level as in 8man. Fifth boss: Dread Master Brontes 8man: Well balanced. Maybe the damage done on the tanks in burn phase is a bit too high. 16man: Well balanced. Don't running into enrage is a bit more difficult as in 8man. Suggestion: Reduce the damage done by the Hand of Brontes in Burn phase by 15% (8man). Incrase enrage timer in 16man by 30 seconds. Dread Palace First boss: Dread Master Bestia 8man: Well balanced. Nothing to say here. 16man: Also well balanced. Maybe boss HP are a bit too low. Suggestion: Increase the boss HP in 16man by 15%. Second boss: Dread Master Tyrans 8man: Damage check is tight, but doable. 16man: The damage check is too tight. The boss has 35.000.000 HP. That results in a raid-dps of 100k. Damage income is to low. Suggestion: Reduce the boss' HP by 10% (16man). increase the damage done by Shock by 10%, increase the damage by the AoE-smash by 15% (both 16man). Third boss: Dread Master Calphayus 8man: The overall damage check is okay. The damage check in future#1 on the mass-affliction-add's is hard. The damage check in future#2 on the spheres is hard. 16man: The adds in past#1 have the same HP as in 8man [bug]. The damage check on the spheres in future #2 is too hard. The other stuff is okay for 16man. The overall damage check is not visible. The damage check in burn phase (future#3) is too easy. Suggestion: Reduce the mass-affliction-add's HP by 10% (8man), reduce the sphere's HP by 10% (8man & 16man). Increase the boss HP by 15% (16man). Fourth boss: Dread Master Raptus 8man: The damage encounter is broken. Besides that, the boss fight is very good balanced. 16man: Not good balanced. No damage check here. The damage encounters adds have the same HP as in 8man [bug]. Suggestion: Increase the boss HP by 15% and adjust the enrage timer to be on a similar level as in 8man. Fifth boss: Dread Council 8man: Well balanced. The damage check in Styrak/Brontes-phase is a bit too easy. 16man: The damage check in Styrak/Brontes-phase is way too easy. Suggestion: Increase the HP of Styrak and/or Brontes by 10% (8man) / 20% (16man). Temple of Sacrifice First Boss: Malaphar 8man: Well balanced. 16man: A 16man oneshot. Nothing wrong here, it's just HM. Suggestion: Maybe add enrage-timers. Second Boss: Lance Squadron Walkers 8man: Right Walker does very much damage. Also, enrage timer is a bit tight for HM. 16man: Enrage is not a problem. Suggestion: Reduce teh damage done by the right walker by 10%. Increase the enrage timer by 20 seconds. Adjust the enrage timer and the HP in 16man to be on a similar level as on 8man. Third boss: Underlurker 8man: The damage income is very low. The boss himself does very heavy spikes. 16man: The damage check is too easy. Suggestion: Increase the damage done by the adds by 10%. Reduce the damage done by the spikes by the boss by 15%. Adjust the enrage timer/boss' HP in 16man to be on a similar level as in 8man. Fourth boss: Revanite Commanders 8man: The damage done by the adds is a joke. The rest is okay. 16man: Same as in 8man. Suggestion: Increase the damage by the underworld-revanites cleave by 20%. Fifth boss: Revan, the Returned 8man: All damage and healing checks got nerfed. Okay. But, in my opinion, the damage check in core phase is a bit too easy. Also, the healing check there is too easy. 16man: Heave does double damage compared to 8man. Suggestion: Increase the Cores HP by 20%. Increase the damage done by Unstable Aberrations by 20%. (8man and 16man). Reduce the damage done by Heave by 20% (16man). Increase the damage done by Heavy by 20% (8man). Ravagers: First boss: Sparky 8man: Well tuned for first boss. 16man: see 8man Suggestion: - Second boss: Quartermaster Bulo 8man: Well tuned. 16man: see 8man Suggestion: - Third boss: Torque 8man: Enrage is no challenge. 16man: Enrage is an even easier challenge as in 8man. Suggestion: Increase the Boss HP by 20% (8man). Increase the Boss HP by 30% (16man). Fourth boss: Blaster and his boss 8man: Damage done by Master is a bit overtuned. Masters HP are a bit too high / Blasters HP are too low. 16man: Damage done by Master is a bit overtuned. Suggestion: Reduce the damage done by Master's overpowered weapon arm by 20%. (8man and 16man) Increase Blasters HP by 15% (8man). Fifth boss: Coratanni & Ruugar 8man: Damage check on Coratanni is a joke. Damage income in phase 1 is also a joke. Damage Check in phase 2 is too easy. 16man: same as in 8man. Suggestion: Increase the damage done by fire in phase 1 by 15%. Increase Coratannis HP by 25%, Pearl's HP by 20% and Ruugars HP by 15%. (8man and 16man) Gods from the Machine: No comments here. All bosses are balanced very well. I hope, that the Devs will read my post, to adjust the bosses, making them a bit more normal. From my point of view, some boss encounters are also very interesting due to the fact, that they are a bit weird. Just an example: Tyrans has a very heavy damage check in 16man. Working on that boss with our group and beating him, is very fun and moreover satisfying. Strange balancing creates it's own type of mechanic (e.g. taking an additional DPS for a healers). I wouldn't be disappointed, if my post doesn't lead to a rebalancing. Overall, working on 16man ops was very fun and created new content for us. However, some bosses, like Zorn & Toth, are just annoying in it's current state in 16man. A small readjustment would be nice. Also, I have to mention the ongoing performance-issues in 16man raids again. I know, you are working on this problems, but it makes some boss encounters, where positioning and a right timing is very important (e.g. Styrak Chain Manifestation) very difficult. If it is not possible, to solve these problems, I would suggest a revoulutionary suggestion: Rebalance 16man-raids to 12man-raids (2T, 3H, 7D). We made the experiences, that our performance gets better when a couple of players have died. With 12man, we will still not have a performance as in 8man, but it should be possible, to execute certain mechanics correctly even with a weaker PC. 12man-version would also create a new level of difficulty for 8man-groups. Beating a 16man NiM with 8 players is nearly impossible. A boss balanced for 12man would also be a very hard challenge for 8 players, but it can be doable by the top level players. So, all in all, 16man-raids are very fun, but are in my opinion in need of some adjustments. I also added my opinion for the 8man-versions and some suggestions, that would make them a bit more balanced. Greetings Coryak/Exocor Edited November 7, 2017 by Exocor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RikuvonDrake Posted November 7, 2017 Share Posted November 7, 2017 (edited) Always interesting to hear comments about 16man and 8man content, similarities and differences are definitely there and it's always good to get feedback comparing the two modes. However, as a long time 16man raider I hope to shed some light on a few issues that you bring up, in particular regarding 16man scaling. That said, I disagree with most of your suggestions and think that a lot of the problematic issues such as tight enrages and high DTPS on tanks that you feel needs to be addressed simply is due to shortcomings of the group. As a 16man raider, the key issue has always been to recruit skilled players, in all groups, even 8man, the difference between the best DPS and the worst DPS, or the best healer and the worst healer is noticeable when doing content, in 16man, that problem is extremely evident. When balancing around 16man content, the comparison with 8man doesn't take into account that the average skill level decreases, often significantly in terms of DPS output. Based on past conversations with developers, following the balancing around EC Nightmare, the direction and recommendations changed regarding how to approach 16man vs 8man. Instead of balancing around 8man values (which basically is what you are suggesting) they decided to try to balance around the average player output. If you take a look at for example your videos for Zorn/Toth, Kephess, Cartel Warlords, Styrak Manifestation, Tyrans or Energy Spheres on Calphayus, you will notice that the issues you mention are simply created by people doing mistakes. That can be everything from incorrect defensive cooldown usage, positioning mistakes, low DPS (not saving heavy hitters for the first Manifestation), not assisting tanks with damage soaking and so on. In 8man most of these mistakes are not punished as much, due to both us having full 248 and damage values being significantly lower. However in 16man, due to increase in damage values repeatedly doing mistakes that increase group/tank dtps will have a direct consequence. Those mistakes are what needs to be addressed, and that is not something Bioware should readjust to, that is your group's problem. However, regarding Ravagers and Temple of Sacrifice, you make some good points, it's important to consider the fact that they wanted it to be some type of "Hardmare", which utterly failed and the content should be readjusted to make it "Hardmode" instead. Edited November 7, 2017 by RikuvonDrake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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