Total Gap?

[Foambreaker]

The thing is about a lot of the discussions around PvP is that they are about a single "straw" that is part of a "bundle".

 

I don't have an account with either extreme but I wonder if between us we could figure out what the actual stat gap is between:

 

A new level 70 player with:

• No datacrons
  
• One class in legacy, ie no legacy bonuses
  
• No augments
  
• No tokens therefore no 230 gear or set bonuses
  
• Bolster
  

 

vs.

 

A legendary player with:

• All datacrons
  
• All legacy bonuses
  
• Correct augments
  
• Full 248
  

 

Obviously even if all things were equal the new player would normally be defeated.

 

The question is how unequal is it? Are there numbers?

[Glower]

Are there numbers?

 

Yeah, these secret numbers of players who left (maybe forever) the game after 5.1...

[Icykill_]

Yeah, these secret numbers of players who left (maybe forever) the game after 5.1...

 

Sadly, you couldn't be more right 😢

[Icykill_]

The thing is about a lot of the discussions around PvP is that they are about a single "straw" that is part of a "bundle".

 

I don't have an account with either extreme but I wonder if between us we could figure out what the actual stat gap is between:

 

A new level 70 player with:

• No datacrons
  
• One class in legacy, ie no legacy bonuses
  
• No augments
  
• No tokens therefore no 230 gear or set bonuses
  
• Bolster
  

 

vs.

 

A legendary player with:

• All datacrons
  
• All legacy bonuses
  
• Correct augments
  
• Full 248
  

 

Obviously even if all things were equal the new player would normally be defeated.

 

The question is how unequal is it? Are there numbers?

 

At least if Bolster was at 250 there would only be a tiny stat difference between entry lvl and BiS. That would remove one of those gap obstacles and make it more inviting for new pvpers and less annoying for older pvpers.

[sithBracer]

So I just tried it out on my 70 shadow and it was brutal. My max damage was 4120 and max bonus damage was about 2250, compared to a 248 shadow on my team (that wasn't even min maxed) who had 4900/2740 . My force bonus damage was about 3250 crit was 43% and surge was 70.75%. Hp was 118k. His was over 132k. My alacrity is 3.75% force regen 10.4. Accuracy is 103%.

 

My highest hit was 20k and it was a very rare thing, most likely a relic proc against a sorc (228 relic and 220 relic atm). His highest hit was over 27k (in that exact same wz my highest hit was 15k). Each force breach did about 10k if it crit on average (sometimes 9k sometimes 11k).

 

Without the 3 non consular buffs, I am at 113k health, max damage 4k, max bonus damage 2150, force bonus damage 3.1k, 38% crit, 70.75% surge. Same alacrity same force regen same accuracy.

 

When including the set bonus, this was pretty much a bigger gearing mismatch than when I had on 162s in the beginning of 2.X and had only 1300 expertise. I have absolutely no incentive to sub again and do no plan to (currently on the 7 day trial, ty snave). I don't mind biting the bullet for a week or so, but if the grind just to be at the bottom with 230s is really as long as people say I see no reason to pay a penny, just to keep paying with my time after that.

 

The devs are currently bad, high and possibly retarded to allow such a thing to continue (ban if you want devs, Im on a 7 day trial and will not be subbing anyway).

[funnypat]

I don't mind biting the bullet for a week or so, but if the grind just to be at the bottom with 230s is really as long as people say I see no reason to pay a penny, just to keep paying with my time after that.

 

The devs are currently bad, high and possibly retarded to allow such a thing to continue (ban if you want devs, Im on a 7 day trial and will not be subbing anyway).

 

You can get 230 in about 2 days - sooner if you're lucky, since you have the chance for command packs to drop some stuff. But you get the first 100 or so command levels really fast (that's 100 boxes - chance is pretty high that you have at least 4 - 5 set items if not the better 236 items in them).

 

But since you're not planning on playing any longer i guess that information is not doing you any good ^^

[sithBracer]

You can get 230 in about 2 days - sooner if you're lucky, since you have the chance for command packs to drop some stuff. But you get the first 100 or so command levels really fast (that's 100 boxes - chance is pretty high that you have at least 4 - 5 set items if not the better 236 items in them).

 

If I'm lucky? Wow nice to see the standards for this game have fallen as low as I expected. Even if I get all 230's, stat-wise it is still much lower than the 248 shadow I saw. How do I know this? Because I also saw a 230's shadow as well. His max damage/bonus damage was similar to mine (in fact it seem a little lower). So comparing the 248's 4900/2750 to my 4100/2250, the difference is 17% and 18% respectively. Keep in mind this is with all the legacy buffs and the 248 shadow not being min-maxed (he had 49% crit chance). When taking a min-maxed into account with 10%+ alacrity and higher accuracy, the difference would go up to more than 20%, maybe as high as 25%. That plus the extra 15k health is a huge difference.

 

The funny part is, that this is something BW can easily do something about, yet they choose not to. When did they say they were going to change bolster? 5.5? Is it really that hard to change a number?

 

But since you're not planning on playing any longer i guess that information is not doing you any good ^^

 

Ok, just as a clarification, this is not about me personally. I have a bunch of characters who had the 4.X max crafting status and range from 35-45 affection, so I can easily craft what I need. I have lots of money so I can easily buy what I need. And my guild has already said they would craft any pieces I need and do SM/HM raids with me to get me geared up if I chose to come back. I am answering this thread in the POV of someone who is new or someone who has been away for a long time and came back recently to an empty guild. I personally would probably have an advantage with the current system.

 

But for the most part, yeah, not really. More than gear, it is the slow process of fixing all of the easy to see problems that is keeping me from coming back.

Edited August 8, 2017 by sithBracer

[sayNih]

My Vengeance Warrior recently got it's last 248 piece, so I decided to do some parsing. I found a Guardian alt that kept a set of 204-pvp gear. It had 240 left-side, but that is as close as I can come to full gear gap.

 

Starparse using bolsterizer on a dummy target produced:

20% more DPS...and

10% more healthpoints: 129105

 

Update 5.5 will steal half that advantage.

 

In Unranked you will never notice the gap, as it is hidden by FOTM, pre-mades, faction-imbalance, objectives...etc.

 

A fight between two mirror specs, both with DCDs off cool-down, is rare. It takes 3-4 rotations and all DCDs to defeat a bolstered player, who then re-spawns a few seconds later. When my BIS Vengeance is on the wrong side, my 240-242 geared guildmates will focus target me perfectly well.

 

The only way we can suspect and blame an opponent's gear, is if they are displaying a flair on their nameplate.

 

Gear is more an issue in PVE. In Story Mode Operations, bolster is inadequate, and 240-242 gear is minimum. I routinely see players defeat bolster in pug flashpoints by showing up with empty slots, and empty shells.

 

For Unranked PVP, the gear grind is just an incentive system, which many will reject.

[Foambreaker]

My Vengeance Warrior recently got it's last 248 piece, so I decided to do some parsing. I found a Guardian alt that kept a set of 204-pvp gear. It had 240 left-side, but that is as close as I can come to full gear gap.

 

Starparse using bolsterizer on a dummy target produced:

20% more DPS...and

10% more healthpoints: 129105

 

Update 5.5 will steal half that advantage.

 

In Unranked you will never notice the gap, as it is hidden by FOTM, pre-mades, faction-imbalance, objectives...etc.

 

A fight between two mirror specs, both with DCDs off cool-down, is rare. It takes 3-4 rotations and all DCDs to defeat a bolstered player, who then re-spawns a few seconds later. When my BIS Vengeance is on the wrong side, my 240-242 geared guildmates will focus target me perfectly well.

 

The only way we can suspect and blame an opponent's gear, is if they are displaying a flair on their nameplate.

 

Gear is more an issue in PVE. In Story Mode Operations, bolster is inadequate, and 240-242 gear is minimum. I routinely see players defeat bolster in pug flashpoints by showing up with empty slots, and empty shells.

 

For Unranked PVP, the gear grind is just an incentive system, which many will reject.

 

I think the point of the thread is it is not hidden, it accumulates with other issues to become a major barrier to entry for new players.

[Thaladan]

i kept an old expertise blue beginner set from 2.0/3.0 (for the skin)

 

a full set for free which was quite decent.

 

and apperently it was to complicated for players according to bioware

 

..we know the following

[verfallen]

tbh, its mostly the lack of experience of the total beginner that will kill them, not the lack of gear.

 

Obviously as they play they'll acquire experience and start doing better, and some might think its because they are upgrading their gear, but pvp is mostly about knowing your class and knowing the enemy.

 

If you know your class and the one you are fighting, you will win against someone who doesn't also know both.

 

 

I take the same person at that skill level, and magic them into 248 (or lets say, I craft them 246 for realism). I could strip down naked with a level 1 green gun, and with bolster probably kill them unless they learn really fast.

 

Not saying gear doesnt have its importance in overall dps/hps etc etc, but its not as crucial as many may think.

 

 

EDIT : just to be clear, I did see a player run a WZ naked and pull I think it was 3.5k dps, with a single target spec. Very respectable, even geared, depending on WZ and what you are doing in it.

Edited August 9, 2017 by verfallen

[merovejec]

Well Ok, there is a point there, but compare this to another game, is there a game out there where you get to max level and are already fit for PVP and equal with rest? (no troll Im really asking)

[merovejec]

The thing is about a lot of the discussions around PvP is that they are about a single "straw" that is part of a "bundle".

 

I don't have an account with either extreme but I wonder if between us we could figure out what the actual stat gap is between:

 

A new level 70 player with:

• No datacrons
  
• One class in legacy, ie no legacy bonuses
  
• No augments
  
• No tokens therefore no 230 gear or set bonuses
  
• Bolster
  

 

vs.

 

A legendary player with:

• All datacrons
  
• All legacy bonuses
  
• Correct augments
  
• Full 248
  

 

Obviously even if all things were equal the new player would normally be defeated.

 

The question is how unequal is it? Are there numbers?

 

Dont forget the companion bonuses when you finish their quests and all the dialogs.

[sayNih]

Well Ok, there is a point there, but compare this to another game, is there a game out there where you get to max level and are already fit for PVP and equal with rest? (no troll Im really asking)

 

There is on-line chess.

 

There are MMOs that offer pay-to-win options.

 

SWTOR offers pay-to-win in the form of 246 crafted gear for sale on the GTN, and CXP boosts.

[-Bob-]

CXP is still a thing? Wow..I've been busy ignoring it i guess, just leveling an alt thru pvp and when it hits 70, delete it and create another one. It's pretty fun this way

[merovejec]

There is on-line chess.

 

There are MMOs that offer pay-to-win options.

 

SWTOR offers pay-to-win in the form of 246 crafted gear for sale on the GTN, and CXP boosts.

 

Sure, the example was a fresh new player who has only a few hundred thousand or maybe millions after he does story etc and is level 70. Full 246 from GTN might be quite a lot of millions. That kind of person has it hard to get gear fast.

[Storm-Cutter]

Stats v Bolster and comms gear is a gap, but it's only significant in certain circumstances.

 

You can have BiS and all the buffs and datacrons, and still do little or no damage/heals/protection while guarding a node, or you can be in crappy comms gear scrapping with most of the enemy with a tank guarding and a healer watching your back and put up some stellar numbers.

 

Most matches falls between the two extremes - Just be wary of going 1 on 1 if your gear isn't top spec, and make sure you don't get isolated or tunnelled by the enemy. - Do your dailies and weeklies and you'll soon pick up a few bits of okay-ish gear - enough so you can be a bit more adventurous.

 

Whether the classes are balanced, whether the matchmaking is doing anything for you, whether the enemy is fielding too many of one class is another matter. - But that's on the BioWare combat team - ahem! -I mean the office cat, who jiggles the mouse around until every now and again accidentally committing changes by pressing the left-most button.

[DavidAtkinson]

tbh, its mostly the lack of experience of the total beginner that will kill them, not the lack of gear.

 

Obviously as they play they'll acquire experience and start doing better, and some might think its because they are upgrading their gear, but pvp is mostly about knowing your class and knowing the enemy.

 

If you know your class and the one you are fighting, you will win against someone who doesn't also know both.

 

 

I take the same person at that skill level, and magic them into 248 (or lets say, I craft them 246 for realism). I could strip down naked with a level 1 green gun, and with bolster probably kill them unless they learn really fast.

 

Not saying gear doesnt have its importance in overall dps/hps etc etc, but its not as crucial as many may think.

 

 

EDIT : just to be clear, I did see a player run a WZ naked and pull I think it was 3.5k dps, with a single target spec. Very respectable, even geared, depending on WZ and what you are doing in it.

 

We should make a sticky of this post for everyone who is crying about gear to see...

 

Your wisdom is incredible sir, you couldn't have said truer words.

[Foambreaker]

tbh, its mostly the lack of experience of the total beginner that will kill them, not the lack of gear.

 

Obviously as they play they'll acquire experience and start doing better, and some might think its because they are upgrading their gear, but pvp is mostly about knowing your class and knowing the enemy.

 

If you know your class and the one you are fighting, you will win against someone who doesn't also know both.

 

 

I take the same person at that skill level, and magic them into 248 (or lets say, I craft them 246 for realism). I could strip down naked with a level 1 green gun, and with bolster probably kill them unless they learn really fast.

 

Not saying gear doesnt have its importance in overall dps/hps etc etc, but its not as crucial as many may think.

 

 

EDIT : just to be clear, I did see a player run a WZ naked and pull I think it was 3.5k dps, with a single target spec. Very respectable, even geared, depending on WZ and what you are doing in it.

 

Any BS point can be made by saying one player has more skill than another.

[sithBracer]

tbh, its mostly the lack of experience of the total beginner that will kill them, not the lack of gear.

 

Obviously as they play they'll acquire experience and start doing better, and some might think its because they are upgrading their gear, but pvp is mostly about knowing your class and knowing the enemy.

 

If you know your class and the one you are fighting, you will win against someone who doesn't also know both.

 

 

I take the same person at that skill level, and magic them into 248 (or lets say, I craft them 246 for realism). I could strip down naked with a level 1 green gun, and with bolster probably kill them unless they learn really fast.

 

Not saying gear doesnt have its importance in overall dps/hps etc etc, but its not as crucial as many may think.

 

 

EDIT : just to be clear, I did see a player run a WZ naked and pull I think it was 3.5k dps, with a single target spec. Very respectable, even geared, depending on WZ and what you are doing in it.

 

So your argument is, just because new players already have a pretty big skill handicap which we honestly can't do anything about ... you think we should put yet another handicap on them, one that we actually can do something about. Why exactly? This is somehow going to make them more skilled?

 

Just be honest and say you desperately want to keep your advantage.

[Foambreaker]

So your argument is, just because new players already have a pretty big skill handicap which we honestly can't do anything about ... you think we should put yet another handicap on them, one that we actually can do something about. Why exactly? This is somehow going to make them more skilled?

 

Just be honest and say you desperately want to keep your advantage.

 

Versus being roflstomped by nuubies

[Glower]

EDIT : just to be clear, I did see a player run a WZ naked and pull I think it was 3.5k dps, with a single target spec. Very respectable, even geared, depending on WZ and what you are doing in it.

 

While geared player will do 5-6k dps or even more in the same warzone. Try better next time.

Edited August 9, 2017 by Glower

[sayNih]

So your argument is, just because new players already have a pretty big skill handicap which we honestly can't do anything about ... you think we should put yet another handicap on them, one that we actually can do something about. Why exactly? This is somehow going to make them more skilled?

 

Just be honest and say you desperately want to keep your advantage.

 

'Desperate' is not the word I would use.

 

We knew back in January we would be betrayed, that the effort we put into the Command System would be futile,

that the advantage we worked for and payed for would inevitably be taken away.

 

Not everyone reacts to betrayal the same. Specifically, our opinion of bolster is unpredictable.

 

I for one am looking forward to 5.5, if it will bring new players, and silly casuals into Unranked...

 

...for they are the food on which my (BIS) Vengeance feeds.

 

Not 'desperate'...but Dark-Side.

Edited August 9, 2017 by sayNih
lost quote mark

[Icykill_]

'Desperate' is not the word I would use.

 

We knew back in January we would be betrayed, that the effort we put into the Command System would be futile,

that the advantage we worked for and payed for would inevitably be taken away.

 

Not everyone reacts to betrayal the same. Specifically, our opinion of bolster is unpredictable.

 

I for one am looking forward to 5.5, if it will bring new players, and silly casuals into Unranked...

 

...for they are the food on which my (BIS) Vengeance feeds.

 

Not 'desperate'...but Dark-Side.

 

Sounds like someone needs an advantage or they can't win

[verfallen]

Any BS point can be made by saying one player has more skill than another.

 

While apparently you obviously make very in depth 15 words posts. gg.

 

But yes in pvp your skill at playing your class at peak, and countering other class where they have weakness is key.

 

Shocking I know.

 

Versus being roflstomped by nuubies

 

Which prove you didnt actually understood what I wrote. Maybe try that before trying to argue.

 

 

 

So your argument is, just because new players already have a pretty big skill handicap which we honestly can't do anything about ... you think we should put yet another handicap on them, one that we actually can do something about. Why exactly? This is somehow going to make them more skilled?

 

Just be honest and say you desperately want to keep your advantage.

 

No, it was actually an observation and not an argument. But its an observation that gear really is far from being the deciding factor.

 

In term of "argument" against what I suppose is your idea that bolster should be back at 250 and gear made meaningless, mine is threefold:

 

First, gear is a goal when you play an MMO. You want to progress something, have a carrot to chase after, so to speak. The value of said gear is also important. While we may trade argument about the current 5.0 gearing method, compare all the ages etc etc, the point remains that yes, in the end having better gear, and working toward that better gear is important. How long it takes and how its done is another matter that is not the point of this thread. Bolster is there to ensure a basic entry level, not totally negating the advantage of working toward better gear.

 

2nd, there is a crafting economy to consider. In order for crafted components to mean something, they have to be above bolster. If they are not, then you effectively cut from the market all the pvpers. Crafting should also be the way to be more competitive faster on alts, if you so desire, but not a given. using leftovers 242/246 from your main as you finish gearing it is also a very valid option through legacy gear. This last part mostly adress the argument that more bolster is good since it promotes alting.

 

Yes, thats important, but not by voiding "maining", and there are ways to make "maining" alt friendly that I think the dev are heading toward (granted, at a slow pace).

 

3rd, when bolster is too high, you start seeing people "playing" bolster, by gearing certain tier, they do not all bolster the same, and some people are pros at experiencing and eventually will find an advantage either way through "better bolster". Point in case of 5.0, old 208 pvp gear made getting new better piece of gear not a good idea. That sort of thinking is massively counter productive.

 

to answer your final statement, and stay in this thread topic, with current bolster the "gap" is small, and will become even smaller when bolster goes from 238 to 242. TBH I think its a bit too high, for the reasons stated above (value of being max geared, vs naked with bolster is very close) Nothing about "wanting to keep" my current advantage. My whole point is that "my current advantage" is primarily my knowledge of pvp and this game's classes and dcds, not my gear.

 

While geared player will do 5-6k dps or even more in the same warzone. Try better next time.

 

I heavily suggest you take a good look at the dps difference between 242 and 248. Somehow if you come up with 71% dps increase from 242 to 248, I suggest you go back to 4th grade and redo your maths of that level ASAP.

 

5-6k is a good player OR a fluffer that dps pretty much an entire wz, with some aoe thrown in. You can get 7k+ but by massively fluffing. Most WZ's top damage dealer that also did objectives is around 4,5k in average. If you guarded something or concentrated on controlling it impacts your overall dps as well. I also mentionned the person was a single target spec, specifically a concealment operative. Also naked, he managed to heal for 5k hps. In most game, I do 6kish very well geared, with good games between 7-8k.

 

Sounds like someone needs an advantage or they can't win

 

Again, refer to when I answered Sith's reply. In a blunt way, yes gearing should give you a small advantage, but not to the point you can rolf-stomp new player with basic attacks. Currently that gap is in a roughly good spot, and even with the raise to 248 you'll most likely find yourself still dying as you did before.

Edited August 9, 2017 by verfallen