Pvp a bit out of control?

[Evolixe]

This thing they cannot force.

 

The ENTIRE basis of the trinity is that the "bad guys" attack the tank.

 

NPCs do that because of coded mechanics.

 

People are not coded, most will not mindlessly beat on a tank.

 

That is the PvE way of tanking. Clearly we invented something differently for PvP and it's working.

 

Nobody says that the tank should be the target except you. Mitigating damage for others is very much a tank thing.

That is factually the core idea that the whole interpretation of a tank is build upon.

 

 

But keep stating your case. I can guarantee you it's falling on deaf ears. And thank god it is.

Edited August 7, 2017 by Evolixe

[Storm-Cutter]

Ah yes, me as well. You need to be quasi-autistic to keep track of all the status symbols and only ever do the correct counter.

 

TY so much. I thought it was just me who couldn't keep up with all those symbols. I feel happier knowing I'm not the only one.

 

Back on topic though, the standard wisdom is to take out the healer- and the tank guarding it. - Preferably by CCing one, separating them and bursting down one or the other - usually peel tank out of guard range, CC them and burst down heals.

 

Now that heals and DCDs are so strong , and FoTM you can't burn down 1 fast enough before the other two you burned previously show up. Switching target only makes you go through the cycle in reverse. - And more heal classes man fewer DPS classes - compounding the problem.

 

- Not to mention the "Target is immune to interrupts' flashing up so often it's hardly worth bothering to interrupt any channel.

Edited August 7, 2017 by Storm-Cutter

[Evolixe]

Ah yes, me as well. You need to be quasi-autistic to keep track of all the status symbols and only ever do the correct counter.

 

You mostly look at animations more than Icons really. Some classes have some very important stuff with almost no animation. And while I agree that sort of terrible design should be forbidden by international law, those are the only ones you really have to watch icons for.

 

And of course to keep track of the duration of whatever is impeding you, but once you know that some defensive is on, you can already start your counter and THEN look at the timer. Since virtually no cooldown lasts shorter than 1 second.

 

Saves you some headaches.

[Foambreaker]

That is the PvE way of tanking. Clearly we invented something differently for PvP and it's working.

....

 

It is working so great, that is why most tanks are running DPS gear and crying for a "real role" in PvP.

 

Guard is not a role, it is an ability, one that requires no skill, has no resource requirements, no cast time, no cool down. Talk about faceroll.

[Evolixe]

It is working so great, that is why most tanks are running DPS gear and crying for a "real role" in PvP.

 

Guard is not a role, it is an ability, one that requires no skill, has no resource requirements, no cast time, no cool down. Talk about faceroll.

 

That's not because tanking is bad. It's because DPSing in Tankmode is too good.

 

That is an entirely different topic altogether, however.

Edited August 7, 2017 by Evolixe

[Sargrith]

That's not because tanking is bad. It's because DPSing in Tankmode is too good.

 

That is an entirely different topic altogether, however.

 

Your sort of half right. Its because the DPS version for two of the tank classes is so bad that its non-competitive in ranked and so people build the only thing they can that is competitive.

 

I would love to play my guardian as a pure tank or pure DPS but in ranked....I was told more then once the only way to be an asset to the team is to be a dps tank. I don't want to be carried, I hate that I have to do it but I did. I actually stopped playing ranked with my guardian because it annoys me so. I do unranked with him in vigilance and do well and have a good time. Rarely if I just don't want to swap spec and gear I go in as a pure tank. Yes I carry three sets of gear.

[Evolixe]

Your sort of half right. Its because the DPS version for two of the tank classes is so bad that its non-competitive in ranked and so people build the only thing they can that is competitive.

 

I would love to play my guardian as a pure tank or pure DPS but in ranked....I was told more then once the only way to be an asset to the team is to be a dps tank. I don't want to be carried, I hate that I have to do it but I did. I actually stopped playing ranked with my guardian because it annoys me so. I do unranked with him in vigilance and do well and have a good time. Rarely if I just don't want to swap spec and gear I go in as a pure tank. Yes I carry three sets of gear.

 

You really don't have to be carried in full tank mode. But why would anyone play that **** if you can sponge almost the same amount of damage in DPS gear, whilst putting out 5k dps yourself?

 

Really, it's just that the DPS in tank specs is way too high when they equip DPS gear.

[Volxen]

There is zero --z e r o-- matchmaking in regular PVP. It just takes the groups in queue and smashes them into games and off you go.

 

There is no change bioware could make to PVP that would improve the overall reg pvp experience as much as some light matchmaking like splitting healers between each team one at a time with a limit of 2 per team (one in arenas).

 

Changes Bioware could easily make (if they wanted to):

 

1. Make all group content in the game cross-faction (warzones, uprising, flashpoints, operations, GSF, etc). Meaning everything would be like Odessen.

 

2. Merge all of the servers so we have just a few mega servers (one mega server for U.S., one mega server for UK etc).

 

If Bioware would do the above, they could easily implement matchmaking in regular warzones without slowing down queues to a halt. Plus it would finally end the issue of one faction always dominating the other faction in PVP, which has always been one of the largest issues with PVP since the launch of this game.

[Sargrith]

You really don't have to be carried in full tank mode. But why would anyone play that **** if you can sponge almost the same amount of damage in DPS gear, whilst putting out 5k dps yourself?

 

Really, it's just that the DPS in tank specs is way too high when they equip DPS gear.

 

I disagree, the real problem is tank stats don't matter enough to make them worthwhile.

[Sargrith]

Changes Bioware could easily make (if they wanted to):

 

1. Make all group content in the game cross-faction (warzones, uprising, flashpoints, operations, GSF, etc). Meaning everything would be like Odessen.

 

2. Merge all of the servers so we have just a few mega servers (one mega server for U.S., one mega server for UK etc).

 

If Bioware would do the above, they could easily implement matchmaking in regular warzones without slowing down queues to a halt. Plus it would finally end the issue of one faction always dominating the other faction in PVP, which has always been one of the largest issues with PVP since the launch of this game.

 

Why do we need either of these "fixes"?

 

I play on tEH and see little value in either change. Thanks but sorry neither fix healers or tank issues in PvP nor does it seem a real attempt to do so, seems more like pushing an unrelated agenda really.

[Foambreaker]

I disagree, the real problem is tank stats don't matter enough to make them worthwhile.

 

That is because the underlying premise, being "not killed" is in and of itself not enough in PvP to account for the team slot.

 

In PvE it is huge, as long as the tank is alive...(etc purpose of tank)

 

But in PvP, humans disregard the idea of the trinity and kill the tank last, by that time the tank is globaled and drops like a rock. Being last to die is hardly a claim to fame if you are on the losing team.

[Zhedzaban]

They could just put a damper on all warzones reducing healing by 30%. Saves having to nerf healers and affecting pve.

[Volxen]

Why do we need either of these "fixes"?

 

I play on tEH and see little value in either change. Thanks but sorry neither fix healers or tank issues in PvP nor does it seem a real attempt to do so, seems more like pushing an unrelated agenda really.

 

The only issue with tanks and healers in PVP is when one team is stacked with tanks and healers, and the other team isn't stacked with healers and tanks. This has been an issue in unranked warzones literally since day one. And it's a major issue with unranked warzones precisely because there is no matchmaking at all.

 

The fix would be implementing a matchmaking system where, say, both teams can have at most 2 tanks and 2 healers, and the difference between the number of tanks and healers on both teams cannot be more than 1. But in order to still maintain fast queue times, we need to have everyone in the same queue, hence my two suggestions in my previous post.

 

None of the healers (or tanks for that matter) individually are overpowered in PVP. In fact, sage/sorc healers are actually quite underpowered in both PVE and PVP because the 5.3 nerfs went way too far.

 

And as for tanks, they have always been in the awkward state of doing much more damage than they should, and also having much less survivability than they should. This is primarily because tank stats (defense, shield, absorb) do not work properly in PVP and need to be revamped for PVP so that pure mitigation based tanks are viable.

Edited August 7, 2017 by Volxen

[Kyuuu]

They could just put a damper on all warzones reducing healing by 30%. Saves having to nerf healers and affecting pve.

 

that already happens in wz since day one, it dont help there is to much healing and offhealing and role overlapping happen for it be effective they would have to update to reduce heals by 45-50% for it to mater

 

The fix would be implementing a matchmaking system where, say, both teams can have at most 2 tanks and 2 healers, and the difference between the number of tanks and healers on both teams cannot be more than 1. But in order to still maintain fast queue times, we need to have everyone in the same queue, hence my two suggestions in my previous post.

 

 

that about as likely to happen as it is for BW to make group q vs group q and solo vs solo and putting a system in place that stops q syncing

Edited August 8, 2017 by Kyuuu

[Evolixe]

I disagree, the real problem is tank stats don't matter enough to make them worthwhile.

 

Do you really want to suggest we should make tanks even more sturdy than they already are?

[Aeneas_Falco]

First, more matchmaking.

If for whatever reason one team ends up with 3, 4 healers then we get these kind of threads. "Healing is out of control" and stuff like that. What kind of nerf for healing classed would be necessary in order to make 3, 4 healers weak enough so players still die easily ? That would be nuts.

 

"Out of control" ? Improve matchmaking until you get it right, not just nerfing the role hoping for the best.

 

This.

 

Heals (by healers) are fine. If healers were nerfed so that even matches where you have three or four stacked on a single team can't prevent players from dying, you've just effectively broken one of the trinity roles. What are those healers going to do if they're the only healer in a match? Or they're running end game PVE? If no one is dying because there are four healers stacked on a team, that's a matchmaking problem, not a healing output problem.

 

In addition to matchmaking the other issue is that there are too many self-heals by classes that aren't healer specs. That is where Bioware needs to nerf heals, outside of perhaps DPS Sage/Sorc.

[Aeneas_Falco]

There is zero --z e r o-- matchmaking in regular PVP. It just takes the groups in queue and smashes them into games and off you go.

 

 

Every word of that is true.

 

I was in a Rep vs Rep voidstar recently on my Sentinel where there were a handful of healers on the other team to our none. If that was Imp vs Rep you could maybe chalk up the disparity to just one side having healers in the queue and the other side none, but in a Rep vs Rep match there is no excuse for that. If there was any matchmaking going on those healers would have been split between the two teams.

 

I probably don't need to say which team won.

[Volxen]

Do you really want to suggest we should make tanks even more sturdy than they already are?

 

Tanks without healing support aren't all that sturdy, especially PowerTech tanks which have much less survivability than arsenal mercenaries. This is because too much of tank survivability is tied to DCD's rather than tanking stats.

[jedimasterkiwi]

You can't force fit the trinity on PvP, tanking has no place because most people are smarter than an NPC.

 

Tanking in PvP is for people who get emo over pixel death.

 

I think you are missing the point, you keep hating on guard and tanks and how unfair they currently are and your solution is to outright remove tanks from PVP or remove guard. It is the job of the tank to take damage for the team, like you said people do not target tanks because it is highly ineffective. So guard helps tanks be useful. You cannot remove an entire class from pvp in swtor it would cause too many problems, but I do agree with the fact that dps classes still get guard which can be removed imo. The fact that PVP is out of control at the moment is because tanks and heals are running wild with soaking up damage and healing every bit of damage, the real solution to this is there is no proper matchmaking. If a team had one/two tanks each and one/two healers each and some dps it would be a skilled base match, the match would be determined by the players who can outplay their opponents. From there BW can then look at classes properly and decide what class has OP features in a even match.

[KendraP]

Since this has become a tank/healing thread I feel the need to chime in. I myself am a long time guardian tank on harbinger. Yes I normally run with my buddy who's a healer. Yes I normally guard him. And yes I have abandoned all the principles I long championed here on the forums and began running a skank (yes I hate myself. I hated dying every 5 seconds more sorry).

 

Guard should be a thing in warzones. Otherwise what's the point of having a tank? With the constant "oh queue too long make all the FP tactical" type stuff going on, I feel I deserve a niche as a tank main.

 

When I run pve I am often the defacto leader of the group because I am the one who starts the fights (I said often not always). I have to control the boss/mob, maintan proper aggro even if the dps insist on attacking the wrong target, and often explain mechanics to any new people (again often not always). The first two are simply tank mechanics, true but dps can (usually do) make it easier. I also sacrifice dps to maintain such defensive gear/abilities. Tanks (along with healers) are very likely to be blamed for any failures. Therefore I feel if you hate the slow queue times (at least on harby) run a tank or healer.

 

Skank tanks are a bit too good right now. The best way to fix this is simply to take guard away from dps specs and make tank gear meaningful. I'd gladly throw away dps (which is mostly guardian slash aoe anyway) for more unkillability and team survivability.

[Elusive_Thing]

that already happens in wz since day one, it dont help there is to much healing and offhealing and role overlapping happen for it be effective they would have to update to reduce heals by 45-50% for it to mater

So reduce healing to the point where a single healer can't heal enough to mitigate one enemy player's damage? Yeah, that should work out fine.

[Sargrith]

So reduce healing to the point where a single healer can't heal enough to mitigate one enemy player's damage? Yeah, that should work out fine.

 

No class, not even PT have no defenses. So yes the dps of one DPS class not completely being overwhelmed by one healer would be a nice change. Look even in regs one healer will always heal for way more then one dps, even dot spreads wont match healers. Maybe it is time to reduce it to the point where one healer can not overwhelm one dps, where it is more or less even but with the change that yes, even one dps, can drop an unguarded healer. That would indeed be more fun than what we have now.

[jedcjedcjedc]

No class, not even PT have no defenses. So yes the dps of one DPS class not completely being overwhelmed by one healer would be a nice change. Look even in regs one healer will always heal for way more then one dps, even dot spreads wont match healers. Maybe it is time to reduce it to the point where one healer can not overwhelm one dps, where it is more or less even but with the change that yes, even one dps, can drop an unguarded healer. That would indeed be more fun than what we have now.

 

yet another thread where ignorant people want healers to heal for less than the dps of a single person. basically these people want to make an entire class useless so they can just run around playing team deathmatch and not have to worry about strategy or anything because the healer wont be around to punish their mistakes.

[Sargrith]

yet another thread where ignorant people want healers to heal for less than the dps of a single person. basically these people want to make an entire class useless so they can just run around playing team deathmatch and not have to worry about strategy or anything because the healer wont be around to punish their mistakes.

 

First no one class can only heal, second there are three classes that can heal, but we'll leave the ignorant people to their statements......

 

If a healer can't singlehandedly overcome a a dps then to save someone who is being focused will take strategy and tactics. The group will need to work together to keep each other alive, the person being focused will need to use DCD, the tank will need to guard swap and taunt, the other dps might need to try and peel. The group will need to work together and not rely on a single super hero to save them.

[funnypat]

Well that's just beyond stupid. My head is still a little dizzy from running against the wall 4 times to get this out of my head.

 

So what you're basically suggesting is that a healer can't heal the damage of 1 dps which would be really bloody interesting since nobody would play heals anymore for several reasons:

 

1) If i leave as a healer to reinforce somebody at another node and get cought in between by 1 dps:

I can't kill him, since dps on heal is beyond awful (as it should be) - i can't keep myself up since... duh "great plan"

So basically only 1 thing to do which is dying... yay...

 

2) Healers always get focused there is no match where I don't need to deal with at least 2 dps on me - since i can't keep myself up against 1 so why bother?

 

3) How am i supposed to heal anyone else when i can't even survive the 2 that are on me

(but since we have this "great awesome plan" 1 would be enough - so everybody get out your medpacks and hide behind a tree)

 

4) There is no *********** point in healers if this would be an actual thing - better to play dps because if the other people die faster you can use your resting skill.

 

5) Any other great ideas?

 

This will never be a thing for obvious reasons, so i'm not too worried, but be careful what you wish for, because... well to put it frankly: Most of this forums suggestions would **** up the game even more than the devs ever could.

 

(sorry for the "flowery language" but it seems like reason has left this place so I'm trying to adapt)

 

Wish you a lovely day o/