Sorcs be like "I want my past glories again!"

[TalonVII]

I don't think you understand how rotations work, pyro's rotation, the one that is energy neutral and weaves in basic attacks, does more damage than sorc specs (CL bug not included), which is how it's supposed to be, but madness is not performing as high as other ranged sustained specs and melee burst specs.

 

Pyro...ENERGY NEUTRAL?!!! HAH! That's a good one.

[verfallen]

Pyro...ENERGY NEUTRAL?!!! HAH! That's a good one.

 

Clearly you do not understand the basic that most spec optimal rotation does mean you have basic attacks there and there for ressource management purpose.

 

It does allow them to go for extra dps by going energy negative then using a recuperation move like vent heat.

 

Other classes, like sorc, are balanced around a rotation without basic attack, because frankly when is the last time you tought "good idea to rush into melee range to saber strike" with a sorc.

 

If you are not smart enough to figure out where and when to use basic attack to manage your heat, its your own fault, not the devs.

 

Also, you clearly have a view that PT should be a ranged class. Roll a merc.

 

PT always was meant to be a melee with some mid-range option in the 10-15m, but that needs to be in melee range to deal most of its damage.

 

Not 20m away to deal 90% of its damage.

[shyroman]

Pyro...ENERGY NEUTRAL?!!! HAH! That's a good one.

 

Yeah, it's called using basic attacks when necessary, most specs will be using a basic attack from time to time (some more than others). Like for marksman I almost never have to use a basic attack, but for engineering I have to use 1 every rotation.

[FerkWork]

OP your going over the top and ask for completely unnecessary changes for the class. PTs just need a short buff to their DCDs so their a bit more meaty especially AR and perhaps if not to OP an ignore me forced swapped ability button for PvP so you can't focus burn it down through its DCDs granted it's not OP. It's range is fine although I do miss 30m rail Shot and using full auto dankness as a tank but I understand that it was necessary change.

 

 

On a side I wish Pyros rotation was a bit more elegant and less fillery but I digress.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

I am half hoping that carnage gets nerfed down to the current level of madness (BW did state that they are in the same grouping so if madness is fine, I see no issue with carnage being put at the same place) just to see see how full of it you are.

 

I think you missed the point of my post.

 

I tend to think Carnage will get it.

 

My point was, when you go around calling for nerfs on "mDPS", or "Melee", when they have been out gunned and out done by ranged throughout 5.x to a great extent [more so in PVP], and when they have been considered by everyone to be amongst the most balanced classes in the game, and when no one was complaining about them until all of a sudden ranged got nerfed and now suddenly, not having been touched, melee are OP now all of a sudden?

 

Anyone who has been involved in the Sorc forum or PVP forum would know that I have been an advocate for Sorcs being improved and think it was wrong to nerf their defenses and I don't even play a friggen sorc. Never hace, never will. And that to all of a sudden to be having fingers pointed my way [melees] with calls for nerfs, im supposed to be okay with that?

 

Let me be clear here.

 

I love sorcs, even know I would choose them [and do] as allies above every other class in the game, healers, dps, I don't care, sorcs are useful as hell and provide great group and support utilities. I run with sorcs constantly.

 

That said, I do not think that sorcs and Marauders should ever be on even level with regard to DPS.

 

Marauders are the hardest class in the game to play optimally, they have no self heals, they are a pure DPS class, they can't off heal, they can't off tank, they can't role switch, they can't skank tank. They are without fail always in the most dangerous areas of any content, they're always within attack range of every boss whereas ranged are not, they are more effected by mechanics than ranged, ranged have 7.5 times the attack range they do.

And anyone who thinks that that does not matter, im sorry, is a fool. If melee aren't more prone to forced downtime than ranged, than their is no reason why ranged have to stand so far away when they are fighting. Nothing stops are ranged DPS to stand right near the boss with the rest of the melee, they can DPS just as good within melee ranged as they can from 5 blocks away. Same goes for PVP, why are they always standing so far away from melee when they are shooting at them?

 

You know, I know why, everyone knows why. - Because it's much safer, they're far less likely to take damage from 5 blocks away, and because some mechanics won't effect them as much far away from the boss.

 

There is no possible other reason why ranged always stand so far away. If it's not more dangerous up close and personal than get right in melee face when you are fighting them, after all, what's the diffference?

 

The very concept of 'kiting' proves that it is far safer and less dangerous to be further away from your enemies and less likely to get you hurt or killed.

 

Melee don't have that option. They cannot attack anyone ever who cannot attack them back. Ranged can and do with 95% of the time. That is why you see called for L4 "rDPS" for operations on fleet because they take less damage than melee do and it's easier on the healers.

 

Sorcs were nerfed far to hard, and at no time have I ever wanted or been happy for Sorcs in their current circumstances.

 

Sorcs should do less damage than Marauders and Assassins and Juggs.

 

When you cannot heal yourself, when you are always in the "hot zone", when everyone around you can heal themselves and you can't, [to say nothing of when there isn't even a healer on your team to begin with [PVP], when anything forces you to move further than 4' from it you lose DPS, when you will never be able to attack anything that can't attack you right back, when the most powerful enemies the game can throw at you [bosses] are always going to be within arm's reach of you, things look and are a little different than being much further away.

 

That's all been covered before though.

 

 

 

Using parsley as a gauge as to how specs are performing is misleading and inaccurate generally speaking.

 

I don't care what you see on parsley, that's not the norm. Those are the best of the best, when the person had a 4 leaf clover up their butt and the goddess RNG was in a particularly good mood that day. If you used Parsley as a guide, than Lightning sorcs need to be nerfed.

 

But we know better. We know those are not the norms. We know your average Joe won't reach those heights. We know these are some of the best players in the game.

 

This strategy they are using for class balance, cannot and will not work. I think anyone who has a good handle on how this game works can easily see that. The intention behind it is good, it's just unfortunately, inherently flawed.

 

That same road map, is the reason sorcs got thier bubble and thier self-heals nerfed. Did you think that was justified? Did you think that was fair? Did sorcs really deserve that? Do you think it's fair that Snipers fufilling the same role as DPS sorcs has not only better DPS but also better heals and survivability? Unless they bring down snipers defenses it is hard to argue for their better DPS.

 

But, if Snipers were to lose their self heals and some of the survivability, than yes, they should have better DPS. The more self heals a DPS spec has the less DPS it should do. Pure DPS classes should do more DPS but only, ONLY if they adhere the mold of glass cannon. Self heals are a no no. They didn't use to have them and they and Marauders were in the same boat. But than they got self heals and better defenses, and Marauders remained as they always had been and yet even though there was this difference between them Snipers still had better DPS. Which I don't feel was justified. Your a glass cannon or ur not. If you're not, your DPS should reflect that.

 

I think DPS sorcs should have the best self heals in the game amongst the DPS specs and I think their survivability should be improved a bit. But top tier DPS? No, I don't, they have to many other abilities, group utility, support and are mobile as all hell. Add to that 2 stun breakers a good CC package and the longest attack range in the game next to snipers. The DPS differences were too extreme amongst the specs, and they should be closer, but, common sense has to prevail as well.

 

You cannot base class balance on broad categories that make very little sense when you look at the fundamental differences between specs placed in the same categories, [in the case of Snipers and Marauders specs that shouldn't even be in those categories because they don't operate that way], and dummy parsing.

 

If you do not take each spec on a spec by spec basis, look at all it brings to the table, it's strengths and weaknesses, any attempt at class balance is doomed to failure. And this "road map" to class balance will leave the state of balance in the game worser than before it started. It hurts everyone and cannot achieve it's stated goal.

 

Some don't agree with me, and that's fine, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I have always been and always be of the notion that the pure DPS classes should have the highest DPS in the game providing they don't have self heals. That's my opinion in this game and every other game under the sun.

 

That doesn't mean I think sorcs should be 1000 pts away, that's assassine. 300-400 dps should be as extreme as the DPS differences amongst the dps specs get from top to bottom, this way everything is viable for all content.

 

But when i see people calling blanketly for "melee to be nerfed", you bet ur *** I'm gonna take exception because trying to improve one's lot by stepping over others who don't deserve it either deserves nothing but contempt.

[Hichitsuki-hime]

well. if you say it's just best of the best. and the best of best apparently average 8.7k dps on 2.5 mil dummy..... well damn, we're in even bigger trouble than i thought lol. :D

but really, when i'm told to please swap to a healer next time because my sage doesn't do enough dps to clear hm kephess in ec.... even though we had another dps die even before the boss actually came down, well. that tells me something lol. they didn't assume it could be because of hte guy that died. no. it was because i'm a sage dps.

[TalonVII]

Clearly you do not understand the basic that most spec optimal rotation does mean you have basic attacks there and there for ressource management purpose.

 

It does allow them to go for extra dps by going energy negative then using a recuperation move like vent heat.

 

Other classes, like sorc, are balanced around a rotation without basic attack, because frankly when is the last time you tought "good idea to rush into melee range to saber strike" with a sorc.

 

If you are not smart enough to figure out where and when to use basic attack to manage your heat, its your own fault, not the devs.

 

Also, you clearly have a view that PT should be a ranged class. Roll a merc.

 

PT always was meant to be a melee with some mid-range option in the 10-15m, but that needs to be in melee range to deal most of its damage.

 

Not 20m away to deal 90% of its damage.

 

And it has one 1, count it 1 spec that has 2 abilities over 10 meters. rest do NOT. Kinda broken if you ask me.

 

Oh and btw, already have a lvl 70 IO merc.

Edited July 31, 2017 by TalonVII

[Hoppinswtor]

well. if you say it's just best of the best. and the best of best apparently average 8.7k dps on 2.5 mil dummy..... well damn, we're in even bigger trouble than i thought lol. :D

but really, when i'm told to please swap to a healer next time because my sage doesn't do enough dps to clear hm kephess in ec.... even though we had another dps die even before the boss actually came down, well. that tells me something lol. they didn't assume it could be because of hte guy that died. no. it was because i'm a sage dps.

 

The best of the best average about 9300 as madness and 9400 as lightning - possibly more. You should never dummy parse less than 9100 as either spec unless you make mistakes, have subpar gear, etc - even if your crits are awful.

Edited July 31, 2017 by Hoppinswtor

[TalonVII]

Yeah, it's called using basic attacks when necessary, most specs will be using a basic attack from time to time (some more than others). Like for marksman I almost never have to use a basic attack, but for engineering I have to use 1 every rotation.

 

Umm no, to keep from overheating with my pyro, I have to use my base attack what good 4-5 times more than other rotations, that's just plain stupid. Plus I have little to no closing attacks up till I hot level 59, which is also stupid in the extreme.

 

So no, it's not fun to sit there and have to mindless spam the regular attack waiting on optimal heat to unload with my other attack.

[Hoppinswtor]

Umm no, to keep from overheating with my pyro, I have to use my base attack what good 4-5 times more than other rotations, that's just plain stupid. Plus I have little to no closing attacks up till I hot level 59, which is also stupid in the extreme.

 

So no, it's not fun to sit there and have to mindless spam the regular attack waiting on optimal heat to unload with my other attack.

 

According to parsely, competent pyro parses on a 2.5 million HP dummy seem to be using rapid shots around 12-15 times. Rapid shots frequency is consistent with arsenal, only a little higher than IO, and about twice that of AP.

Edited July 31, 2017 by Hoppinswtor

[Hichitsuki-hime]

The best of the best average about 9300 as madness and 9400 as lightning - possibly more. You should never dummy parse less than 9100 as either spec unless you make mistakes, have subpar gear, etc - even if your crits are awful.

 

lol what if i don't know which one is the issue? how do i fix it then?

[TalonVII]

According to parsely, competent pyro parses on a 2.5 million HP dummy seem to be using rapid shots around 12-15 times. Rapid shots frequency is consistent with arsenal, only a little higher than IO, and about twice that of AP.

 

IO on a rotation, I don't use rapid shots nearly that much. Maybe 6 to 7 times and there's plenty other attack I can fill in with. Pyro, not a whole lot after using your rotation which usually leaves you about 70 heat where as with IO after a good rotation leaves you about 25-40 depending on how you spread it around.

 

Sorry on pyro heat management is ATROCIOUS, and there's very little to change around in that rotation unlike pyro, or hell AP where you can change things up.

 

Plus the grinding up a character. For my ENG sniper I am having a lot easier time grinding him up than my pyro. Infact I equate grinding a pyro to pulling teeth. It's just not fun. Yes I know, respec till later than flip, but what does that say about pyro.

 

Hell I had more fun grinding up my lvl 70 sorc(yes I have a lvl 70 Sorc) than I do my PT(and this isn't my first time grinding a PT either.).

 

Just so people are clear I have the following on my main server:

Lvl 70 Guardian

Lvl 70 Marauder

Lvl 70 Sorc

Lvl 70 Shadow

Lvl 70 Merc

Lvl 70 Gunslinger

Lvl 70 Vanguard

Lvl 70 Operative

Lvl 29 sniper

Lvl 24 PT(Used to have a lvl 65 PT but decided for craps and giggles to reroll).

 

So I've been there done that for just about any class any discipline. Granted I don't have 248 spec yet, but played enough to know.

 

Right now I don't thing VG/PT are in a good place. Sorcs, ehhh. Healing they are still second to none. DPS, I really don't mind since I'm not front line, same with Merc. On Sorc defenses. Need more get the hell out of Dodge abilities, but other than that, sorcs are not in as bad of a place as people are screaming about.

 

Hell I bring my healing Sorc into an operation and tanks are literally kissing my feet as I help carry them to an easy win.

 

PT, eehh AP is in an okay place, but not where I'd personally like it. Pyro, pardon the turn of phrase, is a hot flaming mess far as I am concerned. Lack of abilities to rotate and use, bad gap closer that's REALLY far back. I mean really, pyro like any other Discipline should be FUN. Pyro much as I like the idea behind it, just isn't there.

 

I don't want another FOTM class, infact I ABHOR that kind of switch and bait bull****. I just want classes that bring different stuff to the table.

 

Do I want AP to be a more mid ranged discipline? Yes. would I be willing to see abilities nerfed, up to and including not being able to use a shield while being an AP PT? Yes.

 

Hell for Sorcs, I'd love balanced/madness to be completely ditched in favor of a more single bladed duels discipline bringing us more of a Count Dooku style.

 

Having more lightsabers attacks where you fence like a rapier with a lot more single target focused attacks rather than AOE with lightnin YES PLEASE.And Sages would more focused in form 6 of nimian.

 

But probably won't ever get it.

[shyroman]

Umm no, to keep from overheating with my pyro, I have to use my base attack what good 4-5 times more than other rotations, that's just plain stupid. Plus I have little to no closing attacks up till I hot level 59, which is also stupid in the extreme.

 

So no, it's not fun to sit there and have to mindless spam the regular attack waiting on optimal heat to unload with my other attack.

 

Just comparing rotations to see how many basic attacks pyro uses compared to other specs, and they certainly aren't using it 4-5 times more than other rotations. It's roughly 2 times more than engineering, the same as hatred (only like 15% more), a bit less than carnage (although assault can be categorized differently), double io, double ap. I mean yeah there are some specs that never (or almost never) use basic attack, like the sorc specs (for obvious reasons), lethality, deception, marksman, but for a lot of specs, pyro doesn't use basic attack nearly as often as you say. Also just because you don't personally find it fun, that doesn't mean others won't, or that it isn't a good spec now. If you really have to use basic attack that often then you're not using an optimal rotation.

Edited July 31, 2017 by shyroman

[TalonVII]

Just comparing rotations to see how many basic attacks pyro uses compared to other specs, and they certainly aren't using it 4-5 times more than other rotations. It's roughly 2 times more than engineering, the same as hatred (only like 15% more), a bit less than carnage (although assault can be categorized differently), double io, double ap. I mean yeah there are some specs that never (or almost never) use basic attack, like the sorc specs (for obvious reasons), lethality, deception, marksman, but for a lot of specs, pyro doesn't use basic attack nearly as often as you say. Also just because you don't personally find it fun, that doesn't mean others won't, or that it isn't a good spec now. If you really have to use basic attack that often then you're not using an optimal rotation.

 

Well right now I'm regrinding the pyro, she's only lvl 24, but God it's a chore. Engineering sniper, I can actually use a lot more if my abilities a lot more often. Do I have to use my normal attack a bunch? Sure, but in comparison. so far, I use my abilities on my sniper a hell of a lot more than my pyro.

 

So far, I rate my fun level much higher on the sniper than the PT. I mean I could switch over to AP, but I already have a tactics vanguard, really don't want to do the same thing twice and the shield spec uggghhhhh. Most of those abilities I find nigh useless. Oil slick...pfft, transpose, the hell am I going to use that for while grinding up through the story.

 

Like EA just doesn't give 2 s***s about 2 specs of PT, along with crapping on sorcs while they are at it.

 

Like shield, pyro, lightning and madness, EA said "let us dump all our ***** for this game upon them".

[shyroman]

Well right now I'm regrinding the pyro, she's only lvl 24, but God it's a chore. Engineering sniper, I can actually use a lot more if my abilities a lot more often. Do I have to use my normal attack a bunch? Sure, but in comparison. so far, I use my abilities on my sniper a hell of a lot more than my pyro.

 

So far, I rate my fun level much higher on the sniper than the PT. I mean I could switch over to AP, but I already have a tactics vanguard, really don't want to do the same thing twice and the shield spec uggghhhhh. Most of those abilities I find nigh useless. Oil slick...pfft, transpose, the hell am I going to use that for while grinding up through the story.

 

Like EA just doesn't give 2 s***s about 2 specs of PT, along with crapping on sorcs while they are at it.

 

Like shield, pyro, lightning and madness, EA said "let us dump all our ***** for this game upon them".

 

I mean yeah, if you're so low level then you're gonna have energy issues since you don't have any passives that help with energy. Sniper when such a low level also has atrocious energy management since you're basically just spamming sniper most of the time for single target which is terrible for energy management. Wait till you're level 70 then compare it with other specs.

[TalonVII]

I mean yeah, if you're so low level then you're gonna have energy issues since you don't have any passives that help with energy. Sniper when such a low level also has atrocious energy management since you're basically just spamming sniper most of the time for single target which is terrible for energy management. Wait till you're level 70 then compare it with other specs.

 

I had a lvl 65 pyro before we went to 70, it's still not there. Rotation. is bad, defenses are meh and energy management is still atrocious.

[Lupolus]

I agree. In december I thought to roll a new Vanguard since I only played it in the past at low level. My rotation was basically Mortar Volley (30m area) -> Full Auto (30m) -> (the mob is now close at 4m) so -> Rocket Punch (4m) YAY.

You can't do that any more. Instead you walk to a mob (like a snail) , hope he doesn't see you till you are at 10m and you do your 10m stuff, all of which doesn't do that much damage.

 

Enough reason to delete character and make a Commando. Now I can play what I want.

 

Now at level 59 (!!) (as a Vanguard) you get Storm. So, I later created a 60 Vanguard (he is now 70), see if it then gets better and yes, by a LOT. So, then you can do ONE 30m damage and then Storm and jump to the target. Its not impossible, but it still feels meh. Plasmatechs damage is really bad, Tactics is better, but you constantly run out of ammo, so you include Hammer shots in the rotation (once the recharge cell is on cooldown).

 

I haven't even bothered with the tanking spec, because Riot Gas, is that useful? Maybe a little, nothing more. Oh you can Transpose, so when you are at the boss, you can now swap with a healer, is that the idea? Sorry, I'm trolling here.

The point is: the Shield-Specialist needs to be completely changed before I look into it.

[BraverDre]

Worthless thread.

Most players who do NiM and HM content know that Madness sorc underperforms compare to other sustained rDPS and burst mDPS.

 

Google star parsley stats and swtor how balance happens and u will find the answer why madness underperforms

[ivanhedgehog]

So Sorcs can sit here and scream bloody murder about a DPS buff, but heaven forbid a PT getting in shouting distance with pyro, which has been bottom for how long?

 

we can keep flaying eachother on the forums and calling for buffs/nerfs etc, but BW doesnt really care what we want/think. That was obvious from the last "balance"patch. They will do what they want and regardless of their communication propaganda, they will go ahead and ignore all feedback.

[Hoppinswtor]

lol what if i don't know which one is the issue? how do i fix it then?

 

To squeeze the extra 300-400 dps out of madness, you'll need to eschew that 3.0/4.0 mindset of it being a conservative, static rotation. Madness is now a very aggressive priority system that includes dot management. Now that force is in abundance, your goal is to use your heavy hitters on cooldown as much as possible. You may even delay dot application by a GCD or two, depending on the situation and which abilities are coming off cooldown. You'll be doing a lot of force lightning clips - not just for demolish, but for death field, force leech, etc etc. Probably a third of your force lightning channels will be clipped midway - don't clip until you see the second tick of damage.

 

Pair recklessness with force leech, demolish, and a full channel of force lightning. Save second adrenal for execute range and pair it with your last use of offensive cooldowns; this goes for hatred as well.

Edited August 5, 2017 by Hoppinswtor