Sorc DPS Balance. Why it is hard and what can be done

[DarthCognusSion]

I thought I would take a different approach in trying to improve Sorc dps since everything else I have suggested has not been implemented or seriously considered. Maybe my logic was flawed in the combat teams eyes, or they just dislike that kind of balancing philosophy. Anyways, this is a different way to get Lightning and Madness into better shape. I think Madness could still use a little bit more of a damage values bump, but that is another discussion.

 

Balancing in this game has historically been very heavy handed while often using bandaids to fix bigger issues. Sorc dps has some glaring issues with it, and having thought a long time about it finally hit me, especially with the release of 5.3, what is wrong with it. Lightning and Madness do almost identical jobs, and the utility that they provide to supplement a raid group has seriously decreased over the years, making the job they do have little value.

 

Lightning has frequent small windows of burst with decent cleave/rotational AoE potential and medium to low dps in between. Madness is very similar. The debuffs to bosses they provide is the same. Lightning takes less damage thanks to DR in the tree while Madness can heal itself a decent amount. They both have great AoE. They both (now) have little to no resource management.

 

The issue is that both specs do nothing better than other classes except manage resources for themselves. Both specs have good AoE but others are better. Lightning has good controllable burst, but its sustain is so weak that it doesn't make up for it. Madness is a sustain spec with neither a real ramp up over time like annihilation, nor any meaningful level of sustain like vengeance, nor meaningful burst like virulence, engineering, or innovative ordinance. The debuffs they provide (+5% force damage and +10% AoE damage) are beneficial to the class but in reality do very little for most other classes. This makes the specs rather undesirable for group composition. Any spec that benefits from overwhelmed already has it. Vulnerable is only slightly better. It does benefit Annihilation a good amount, and it benefits the other warrior disciplines slightly. It does nothing for agents or bounty hunters.

 

So how do you fix Sorc viability (at least in Operations) without tweaking numbers that much? The answer is change the debuffs that the specs provide. I think that Lightning would benefit more from the sundered debuff and Madness would benefit more from the Assailable debuff. While both specs do have rotational AoE, the AoE debuff does less than either of these respective debuffs would. Most of the damage in Lightning is kinetic so would benefit from sunder. Chain Lightning would lose the AoE increase but putting sunder on it would make up for the damage loss while at the same time making Lightning more desirable to raid groups. The same can be said for Madness. Death Field’s initial damage losing the AoE increase would be offset by the increased damage gained from the Assailable debuff.

[Jushyfruit]

I would definitely support this change as this would boost our single target DPS a bit more while keeping our AOE damage in check (even though our AOE isn't the best it is still rotational). As it stands now if I am using sorc DPS (lightning) it is basically required that another raid member has the sunder debuff and while that usually is the case the difference between times when I've had it and not had it showed significant DPS difference. First phase of Brontes burn alone was a 500 DPS difference between having and not having the debuff over multiple pulls. It's pretty much necessary for the raid group to have that if they want to be downing harder content with a sorc DPS. Currently sorc DPS are becoming a more attractive ranged option only by virtue of every other class getting nerfed so I think this would be a welcome change to help boost their effectiveness for raid groups even more.

[Hichitsuki-hime]

seems quite reasonable imo =) and might be a good way to have madness get closer to I.O. lol not saying it needs to do as much, my 8.8k average vs 9.4k is way much a difference lol:D:D:D

[ottffsse]

They should adjust these buffs and increase damage on wrath procced demolish and lightning strike (on madness) by about 25%.

[sumquy]

They should adjust these buffs and increase damage on wrath procced demolish and lightning strike (on madness) by about 25%.

 

see, this is why we can't have a reasonable discussion. someone has to come in and clutter it up with over the top ridiculous.

Edited July 26, 2017 by sumquy

[ottffsse]

see, this is why we can't have a reasonable discussion. someone has to come in and clutter it up with over the top ridiculous.

 

What is ridiculous about that exactly? are you saying IO merc or Eng sniper should be nerfed down even more to madness dps levels? We are talking about a difference of about 300-400dps here not a negligable 50-100.

[DarthCognusSion]

see, this is why we can't have a reasonable discussion. someone has to come in and clutter it up with over the top ridiculous.

What is ridiculous about that exactly? are you saying IO merc or Eng sniper should be nerfed down even more to madness dps levels? We are talking about a difference of about 300-400dps here not a negligable 50-100.

 

Here's the problem. Madness does need more dps, but the way you want to do it just adds more burst, which is not what Madness needs. I think Madness needs some sort of ramp up mechanic, but instead of a self buff like annihilation, it would be a debuff on the boss. For instance, whenever all of you deathmarks are consumed, the target takes 1% more damage from your dots, stacking up to 5 times. Just an idea. I don't want a dps buff that involves an increase in burst because that is antithesis to what Madness needs to be. It is a sustained damage spec, and should gain a real benefit over time to differentiate from Lightning.

[Zolxtren]

i tell you why its hard to balance DPS for the devs...

 

because they use dummie parses.........

[verfallen]

Here's the problem. Madness does need more dps, but the way you want to do it just adds more burst, which is not what Madness needs. I think Madness needs some sort of ramp up mechanic, but instead of a self buff like annihilation, it would be a debuff on the boss. For instance, whenever all of you deathmarks are consumed, the target takes 1% more damage from your dots, stacking up to 5 times. Just an idea. I don't want a dps buff that involves an increase in burst because that is antithesis to what Madness needs to be. It is a sustained damage spec, and should gain a real benefit over time to differentiate from Lightning.

 

tbh one massive disresperency is that swtor's sustained spec are relatively bursty still, just less so than "burst" spec and with slightly less capabilities to switch target on a whim. Its pretty easy to see when some sustained class were still very efficient in pvp, madness being first in line.

 

Even say vengeance Jug, classifying that spec as a sustained is a bit of a strech, as its just "less bursty" than rage, but a burst spec in its own right. And leth ops. Lol (altough I guess using them as comparison is a bit unfair since I think they are above intended by a bit of a margin)

 

So making madness even more bursty, as you say, will only widen the gap of efficiency that bringing a lower dps but high burst/target switch friendly spec is supposed to bring to the table. It should be limit to clear a burst dps check with 4 sustained, but its not really.

 

 

Currently a burst spec, even target switch friendly, that gets caught to having to burst dps a target after just having used their 2 big hits is less efficient at it than madness going for a FL/LS combo spam.

 

Lightning's sport probably the most fearsome burst in the game...once a minute. Nice when you can line it up with a burst check phase, but if you have to "keep it in reserve" you lower your dps even more overall.

 

But its a design philosophy, and its the one we got. So yes in practice it means the burst/sustained dps difference should be minor, and yes some sustained spec could have a tradeoff of much higher dps once going, but significant ramp up time.

 

1% every 15s seems a bit extreme tough, especially if its target locked.

Edited July 27, 2017 by verfallen

[BraverDre]

I gave up. Looks like Developers don't care about their game dying because they refuse to listen to players feedback Edited July 28, 2017 by BraverDre

[Hichitsuki-hime]

Here's the problem. Madness does need more dps, but the way you want to do it just adds more burst, which is not what Madness needs. I think Madness needs some sort of ramp up mechanic, but instead of a self buff like annihilation, it would be a debuff on the boss. For instance, whenever all of you deathmarks are consumed, the target takes 1% more damage from your dots, stacking up to 5 times. Just an idea. I don't want a dps buff that involves an increase in burst because that is antithesis to what Madness needs to be. It is a sustained damage spec, and should gain a real benefit over time to differentiate from Lightning.

 

yeah. but any debuff tied to deathmark would be frankly USELESS. unless it's a 30-45sec debuff. because if u have sin & sorc, or 2 sorcs in your team, those deathmarks are consumed in under 2 seconds and not only by your own dot. well either that or they need to already fix the damn thing so it only affects your own dots lol:D:D:D

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

tbh one massive disresperency is that swtor's sustained spec are relatively bursty still, just less so than "burst" spec and with slightly less capabilities to switch target on a whim. Its pretty easy to see when some sustained class were still very efficient in pvp, madness being first in line.

 

Even say vengeance Jug, classifying that spec as a sustained is a bit of a strech, as its just "less bursty" than rage, but a burst spec in its own right. And leth ops. Lol (altough I guess using them as comparison is a bit unfair since I think they are above intended by a bit of a margin)

 

So making madness even more bursty, as you say, will only widen the gap of efficiency that bringing a lower dps but high burst/target switch friendly spec is supposed to bring to the table. It should be limit to clear a burst dps check with 4 sustained, but its not really.

 

 

Currently a burst spec, even target switch friendly, that gets caught to having to burst dps a target after just having used their 2 big hits is less efficient at it than madness going for a FL/LS combo spam.

 

Lightning's sport probably the most fearsome burst in the game...once a minute. Nice when you can line it up with a burst check phase, but if you have to "keep it in reserve" you lower your dps even more overall.

 

But its a design philosophy, and its the one we got. So yes in practice it means the burst/sustained dps difference should be minor, and yes some sustained spec could have a tradeoff of much higher dps once going, but significant ramp up time.

 

1% every 15s seems a bit extreme tough, especially if its target locked.

 

There is very little difference between Sustained and burst in SWTOR, it doesn't follow the usual design of sustained and burst in the classic sense. This is why the "road map" they've laid out cannot bring class balance because it totally ignores any pragmatic line of reasoning. You can declare anything anything, but labels do not change the realities that exist within the classes/specs, it ignores how they actually perform on a mechanical level

 

This is from Bant on that subject.

 

There is very little difference between Burst and Sustained in SWTOR. All of the DoT classes rely more on Big Hitting moves than they do DoTs and the Burst DPS have all been toned down to the point where most of their moves do same damage. The biggest difference between Burst and DoTs is not sustained damage, its ability to change targets quickly vs setup time. But there are very few fights that require a target to be killed in less than 10 GCDs which lets all of the DoT classes to stand equal to the Burst classes (and the DoT Application is already factored into the DPS for those classes).

 

On a more general note -

 

Dummies mean nothing in actual play, the only thing they do demonstraite is the damage ceiling of the specs, their DPS potentials and ones mastery of their specs rotation. Dummy parsing definately has an effect on DPS output in the sense that the practice of the rotations help making them muscle memory and how to as quickly as possible recover from rotational mistakes and bring them back on track. Like anything else, practice makes perfect, so to speak.

 

Class balance can only come about [as best as is possible at any rate, class balance can never truly be achieved perfectly] is a spec by spec analysis to take into consideration all the things the specs bring to the table and what the spec is designed for and how to reflect what the spec is attempting to represent in relation to the class. So many things effect overall performance including DPS even when they on the surface are not directly related to DPS out put.

 

Defenses, Mobility, Range, CC kit, Armor type, self heals, off-tanking and off healing capabilities, group utility and support options, skank tank options, escapes, immunities, resource management, perma-stealth, utilities, guard options in DPS specs, easy of rotation, skill caps necessary for optimal performance, how self sustaining the spec is, dependencies, dot spread options, dependability of DPS output, and other things.

 

All these things should be what the DPS rankings should be based on, not on abstract definitions and labels.

Considerations based only on spec type, broad categories, and how much DPS they can put on a dummy without any of the above mentioned considerations stands no chance of achieving anything close to class balance. This road map will leave the classes in a worser state of balance than they already were before 5.3.

 

All the nerf calls going around only serve to bring bad karma.

 

There is no 'fair' in this, there is only what BW declares, right or wrong.

Edited July 28, 2017 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[DarthCognusSion]

There is very little difference between Sustained and burst in SWTOR, it doesn't follow the usual design of sustained and burst in the classic sense. This is why the "road map" they've laid out cannot bring class balance because it totally ignores any pragmatic line of reasoning. You can declare anything anything, but labels do not change the realities that exist within the classes/specs, it ignores how they actually perform on a mechanical level

 

This is from Bant on that subject.

 

 

 

On a more general note -

 

Dummies mean nothing in actual play, the only thing they do demonstraite is the damage ceiling of the specs, their DPS potentials and ones mastery of their specs rotation. Dummy parsing definately has an effect on DPS output in the sense that the practice of the rotations help making them muscle memory and how to as quickly as possible recover from rotational mistakes and bring them back on track. Like anything else, practice makes perfect, so to speak.

 

Class balance can only come about [as best as is possible at any rate, class balance can never truly be achieved perfectly] is a spec by spec analysis to take into consideration all the things the specs bring to the table and what the spec is designed for and how to reflect what the spec is attempting to represent in relation to the class. So many things effect overall performance including DPS even when they on the surface are not directly related to DPS out put.

 

Defenses, Mobility, Range, CC kit, Armor type, self heals, off-tanking and off healing capabilities, group utility and support options, skank tank options, escapes, immunities, resource management, perma-stealth, utilities, guard options in DPS specs, easy of rotation, skill caps necessary for optimal performance, how self sustaining the spec is, dependencies, dot spread options, dependability of DPS output, and other things.

 

All these things should be what the DPS rankings should be based on, not on abstract definitions and labels.

Considerations based only on spec type, broad categories, and how much DPS they can put on a dummy without any of the above mentioned considerations stands no chance of achieving anything close to class balance. This road map will leave the classes in a worser state of balance than they already were before 5.3.

 

All the nerf calls going around only serve to bring bad karma.

 

There is no 'fair' in this, there is only what BW declares, right or wrong.

 

Please provide constructive feedback with real examples instead of broad generalizations. I am really tired of people complaining about balance and essentially doing nothing about it but whine. If you would like to just complain, there are plenty of other threads in the sorc forums where that is the prevailing trend. If you want to have a real discussion, please provide on topic and relative feedback and not the word salad that you just decided to throw out there.

Edited July 28, 2017 by DarthCognusSion

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

Please provide constructive feedback with real examples instead of broad generalizations. I am really tired of people complaining about balance and essentially doing nothing about it but whine. If you would like to just complain, there are plenty of other threads in the sorc forums where that is the prevailing trend. If you want to have a real discussion, please provide on topic and relative feedback and not the word salad that you just decided to throw out there.

 

Apologies for the length -

 

Constructive feed back?

 

Did you actually buy into BW's "Tell us what you think, your opinions matter" line?

 

I gave constructive feed back and I sited exactly the things that need to be considered for class balance to be possible.

 

I'll say it again, here is what needs to be considered in assigning relative positions for DPS output amongst the specs -

 

Defenses, Mobility, Range, CC kit, Armor type, self heals, off-tanking and off healing capabilities, group utility and support options, skank tank options, escapes, immunities, resource management, perma-stealth, utilities, guard options in DPS specs, easy of rotation, skill caps necessary for optimal performance, how self sustaining the spec is, dependencies, dot spread options, dependability of DPS output,etc.

 

DPS output cannot be fairly considered to be balanced among the classes based soley on abstract definitions and labels.And by that I mean

spec type [burst/sustained] and cateogiries on the road map [sustained,burst, psudo-burst].

 

I sited bant because he has proven that there is very little difference between sustained and burst specs in this game with regard to actually DPS output.

 

 

Heres a real example.

 

Concealment Operative, a burst spec, a single burst attack make do 22k damage lets say. Annihilation,a sustained dot spec, Annhilate attack, 25k damage.

 

A traditional sustained dot spec should not have burst attacks like that because in addition to have burst attacks like that they also have dots going.

 

If you base DPS rankings on spec type specifically, than you first must make sure they are operating like their spec type should.

 

Sustained specs shouldn't have attacks that are doing burst damage, because burst specs don't have damage from dots.

 

I included the quote from Bant because that was a specific example. We all base our character builds on his work, he has proven to be a virtual authority on the subject, and that is why class balance cannot be obtained using the current "road map" strategy.

 

I don't know how I can be any more clear.

 

If you do not take into account all those various things [which were specifically stated] that the specs bring to the table what you end up with is certain classes having massive advantages over others in a manner that will make pre 5.3 class balance remembered fondly.

 

If you have one DPS spec doing X amount of DPS, and another DPS of a similar type doing the same exact amount of damage as the first but also having better self heals and mobility, you have just created an inherent imbalance.

 

The entire concept of 'glass cannon' is based on that notion. The less self-sustaining a spec is, the more DPS it should do. The more self-healing a DPS spec has the less DPS it should do.

 

The entire reason why Mercs and Snipers have been so OP in 5.x is based on this concept as well, namely that those two classes were the ones who it was not being applied to.

 

Strong DPS,self heals, stronger DCDs than everyone else.

 

Now comes along Joe Jugg and Mary the Lightning Sorc to fight them.

 

Assuming skill levels and gear are roughly the same, who is going to win that fight and why?

 

Joe Jugg has good DPPS, Mary the lightning sorc not so great.

Joe jugg has good DCDs but mercs are better, so is their dps, and ohh yeah they can heal stupid amounts. Mr. Merc has to kill Joe Jugg 1 and half times, Joe Jugg has to kill Mr. Merc two or three times.

 

Lighting girl squares off with Samy Sniper. They both have the same range, they both have self heals, and in this case mobility is not an issue. Who's gonna win this fight?

 

Samy Sniper has better DPS, slightly worse self heals, but can face tank, can be effected by CCs, and can lock Lighting girl in place so she can't break LoS as much as she might like.

 

The stronger DPS, the better DCDs, the stronger CCs while being immune to CCs will make this fight over pretty much before it starts.

 

Imbalance is the reason.

 

Mr. Sniper shouldn't have self heals as a pure DPS class in addition to tank like DCDs.

 

If you reverse who fought who in the above example, not only will the results be the same, the *** kicking Joe Jugg and Lightning Lass took would be even worse and likely faster.

 

Why? Imbalance.

 

Assuming everything else is equal -

 

If you have self heals and I don't, my DPS should be better.

If you have an attack range of 30-35' and im limited to 4', my DPS should be better.

If I am less self-sufficient than you are, my DPS should be better.

If you have a stronger CC kit than I do, my DPS should be better.

If you are immune to my CCs and im not immune to yours, my DPS should be better.

 

Top Tier DPS should be for those who are the least able to effect their own personal survival and those who have the most limitations on their ability to attack optimally.

 

Conversly, those who have the lowest amounts of DPS output should have the best self heals, the most survival options and the most utlilty, CCs and mobility.

 

There has to be counter balances. Without that you have some lucky few who have more than everyone else.

 

Ranged specs and melee specs of any type, should never be in the same cateogory. Their experiences are entirely different, the dangers they are exposed to have different levels of severity, and the amount of attack options/limitations have a difference that is measured at 7.5 times than they other.

 

In 4.0, more or less, the DPS rankings made perfect sense because these kinds of things were taken into consideration in most instances [there were two exceptions but they were addressed in 4x itself so they effected a change to the balance in those instances in a relatively reasonable amount of time in most cases].

 

Think back to all the previous metas after 1x. Sure, you always had FOTM specs, but you never saw this kind of upheaval in 3x-4x with class balance that we have had in 5.x.

 

When they nerfed the self heals and bubble on Sorc DPS, it defined reason, it made no sense, and was the exact opposite of what they should have done.

 

You can say all these things don't matter, you can say well look at parsley, but that would be a foolish thing to do if true class balance is what is being sought, as close to balanced as is reasonably possible at anyrate.

 

You can say that what they are doing is consumerate to the road map they have laid out for class balance and that may very well be true, but that ignores the fact that the strategy they are using for 'class balance'is inherently flawed and is based on things that have very little baring on the realities of game play.

[DarthCognusSion]

snip

Let me go through this point by point:

 

1) I don't care how jaded you are. It has zero bearing on this specific discussion about sorc dps in this thread in which you have provided exactly 0 input.

 

2) You say that anni should not have 25k annihilates, which may be true, but how do you plan to make up for the dps loss if they nerf annihilate? This is what I mean by provide concrete examples. (Aside: These are the sorc forums, and a thread talking about fixing sorc dps. I don't really care how much you play mara, or may know mara because these are not the mara forums and this is not a thread about mara so please stop talking about mara.)

 

3) Again, if sustain specs shouldn't have burst attacks, then provide reasonable alternatives and buffs to make up the dps losses. Don't just say nerf this and that without providing feedback. That is my point.

 

4) Your point about measuring dps against defensives is all well and good until you realize where it leads you. Sorc and Lethality would have to be the top two dps specs, and honestly I don't want that.

 

5) I don't have much of an issue with classes with less defenses being disadvantaged, but you do realize that includes mara right. The only thing mara has going against it is melee range. Mara has saber ward and obfuscate for melee/ranged attacks. Cloak of pain give 20% DR with a 50% uptime. Ruthless Aggressor gives 75% force/tech resistance for 6 seconds. Undying Rage gives 99% DR for 4 seconds. Force Camo give 4 seconds of cc immunity, 50% DR, and stealth. Thirst for Rage heals you for 1% of you max health every time you spend rage. Intimidating roar is an 8s AoE mez. Predation gives 50% movement speed and 10% melee/ranged defense and with utility another 30% move speed and purges snares/slows. Mad dash gives 100% defense chance for the duration. It seems to me that maras have great utility and defensives with self heals so they shouldn't be top dps by your logic. They should actually be quite low by your line of thinking.

 

6) You bring up parsely like it's an argument I have made, but I am pretty sure I never mentioned it so I don't know from where that's coming.

 

7) Last thing I want to ask: Do you even play sorc? I've seen you post in these forums a lot, and yet I was under the impression you were a mara OTP. Even in discussions about sorc you always seem to bring up mara and carnage in particular. Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems to me that you are attempting to talk about things which you do not fully understand as you do not have the experience playing these classes and specs.

[BraverDre]

Let me go through this point by point:

 

1) I don't care how jaded you are. It has zero bearing on this specific discussion about sorc dps in this thread in which you have provided exactly 0 input.

 

2) You say that anni should not have 25k annihilates, which may be true, but how do you plan to make up for the dps loss if they nerf annihilate? This is what I mean by provide concrete examples. (Aside: These are the sorc forums, and a thread talking about fixing sorc dps. I don't really care how much you play mara, or may know mara because these are not the mara forums and this is not a thread about mara so please stop talking about mara.)

 

3) Again, if sustain specs shouldn't have burst attacks, then provide reasonable alternatives and buffs to make up the dps losses. Don't just say nerf this and that without providing feedback. That is my point.

 

4) Your point about measuring dps against defensives is all well and good until you realize where it leads you. Sorc and Lethality would have to be the top two dps specs, and honestly I don't want that.

 

5) I don't have much of an issue with classes with less defenses being disadvantaged, but you do realize that includes mara right. The only thing mara has going against it is melee range. Mara has saber ward and obfuscate for melee/ranged attacks. Cloak of pain give 20% DR with a 50% uptime. Ruthless Aggressor gives 75% force/tech resistance for 6 seconds. Undying Rage gives 99% DR for 4 seconds. Force Camo give 4 seconds of cc immunity, 50% DR, and stealth. Thirst for Rage heals you for 1% of you max health every time you spend rage. Intimidating roar is an 8s AoE mez. Predation gives 50% movement speed and 10% melee/ranged defense and with utility another 30% move speed and purges snares/slows. Mad dash gives 100% defense chance for the duration. It seems to me that maras have great utility and defensives with self heals so they shouldn't be top dps by your logic. They should actually be quite low by your line of thinking.

 

6) You bring up parsely like it's an argument I have made, but I am pretty sure I never mentioned it so I don't know from where that's coming.

 

7) Last thing I want to ask: Do you even play sorc? I've seen you post in these forums a lot, and yet I was under the impression you were a mara OTP. Even in discussions about sorc you always seem to bring up mara and carnage in particular. Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems to me that you are attempting to talk about things which you do not fully understand as you do not have the experience playing these classes and specs.

 

#buffmadness Madness indeed underperforms. I hate the fact that I have to feed other players with my deathmark. Please bioware fix deathmark and give us a slight buff so we can get in line with other sustained rDPS/ burst mDPS.

 

BIOWARE'S WORDS http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=9333043