Hoppinswtor Posted July 25, 2017 Share Posted July 25, 2017 people just need to push their buttons faster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foambreaker Posted December 20, 2017 Author Share Posted December 20, 2017 And off healing as dps is not stupid? You are comparing off heals with an ability that is cast once and lasts till death and gives a 50% damage reduction? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissingaiur Posted December 20, 2017 Share Posted December 20, 2017 You are comparing off heals with an ability that is cast once and lasts till death and gives a 50% damage reduction? Guard mechanic is fine. Bad DPS, matchmaking and slightly overtuned DCDs are the real issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KendraP Posted December 20, 2017 Share Posted December 20, 2017 We still going here? Besides if you ditch guard what exactly is my purpose as a tank? On the other hand, since my job is to not die and be annoying, I'm going to take this thread not dying as a personal compliment so thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeneas_Falco Posted December 21, 2017 Share Posted December 21, 2017 (edited) The guard mechanic should have a trade off in PVP where the 50% damage reduction comes with a 50% reduction in the effectiveness of heals applied to tank doing the guarding. That would make Guard more strategic and not something you just apply to the healer and forget about. It would also reduce TTK while not completely annihilating the usefulness of Guard. Before some skank tank player reads the above and starts mining salt, I main a healer and as such guard benefits me more than it works against me. The OP isn't wrong that however that guard is overpowered. If I step into a warzone and a half decent tank guards me, it's freecast city. Say hello to 8k heals and 0 deaths and probably a loss for your team unless you have a tank-healer combo to counter. If not, RIP! Edited December 21, 2017 by Aeneas_Falco Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kazz_Devlin Posted December 21, 2017 Share Posted December 21, 2017 You are aware that DPS classes have guard? Which kinda defeats purpose of being a DPS class i'm there for dps not to guard people. besides already squishy enough don't need to add dmg from guarding and hasten my already quick demise we aren't all I win merc's or snipers you know! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KendraP Posted December 21, 2017 Share Posted December 21, 2017 Which kinda defeats purpose of being a DPS class i'm there for dps not to guard people. besides already squishy enough don't need to add dmg from guarding and hasten my already quick demise we aren't all I win merc's or snipers you know! Exactly lol, i was pissed at this change since it seemed to make tanks less useful. Didn't know their solution to that issue would be to make dps specs of tank capable classes squishy as crap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foambreaker Posted December 21, 2017 Author Share Posted December 21, 2017 We still going here? Besides if you ditch guard what exactly is my purpose as a tank? On the other hand, since my job is to not die and be annoying, I'm going to take this thread not dying as a personal compliment so thank you. If you play a tank spec, you would keep guard, but if you spec DPS, no guard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foambreaker Posted December 21, 2017 Author Share Posted December 21, 2017 Guard mechanic is fine. Bad DPS, matchmaking and slightly overtuned DCDs are the real issue. See the merc thread, the only people who complain about the bubble are the people who beat the bubble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shivax Posted December 21, 2017 Share Posted December 21, 2017 (edited) Foambreaker, dont be naive. Ppl defending the guard in this thread are those that benefit from it (and based on its absurd function, a lot ). Guard is stupid mechanic, which only tells us, its gonna stay (based on this year changes). Cope with it. Guard mechanic is fine. Bad DPS, matchmaking and slightly overtuned DCDs are the real issue. Weaker guard, would help with real issues. And I think its easier to fix 1, then 3, but that's just me Edited December 21, 2017 by Shivax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissingaiur Posted December 21, 2017 Share Posted December 21, 2017 (edited) Foambreaker, dont be naive. Ppl defending the guard in this thread are those that benefit from it (and based on its absurd function, a lot ). Guard is stupid mechanic, which only tells us, its gonna stay (based on this year changes). Cope with it. Weaker guard, would help with real issues. And I think its easier to fix 1, then 3, but that's just me No it won't. Majority of people tunnel mindlessly into guard then cry that they are underpowered with their womping 2k dps. With decreasing overpowered dcds and with match making so there isn't 5 guards in the warzone, it will fix the problem. Guard mantainic is fine people are just want to not think when they play pvp. If in team ranked with 2 dps you can get kills with a guard in play, guard isn't the problem. Edited December 21, 2017 by kissingaiur Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shivax Posted December 21, 2017 Share Posted December 21, 2017 (edited) No, it wont. And I would like those changes, but not gonna happen. Same with guard. Focus is always issue. Lots of healers, that issue still makes killing them possible. K, with skank around, isnt impossible, but... I just do what u do, leave Edited December 21, 2017 by Shivax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissingaiur Posted December 21, 2017 Share Posted December 21, 2017 No, it wont. And I would like those changes, but not gonna happen. Same with guard. Focus is always issue. Lots of healers, that issue still makes killing them possible. K, with skank around, isnt impossible, but... I just do what u do, leave .... yeah I'm sure match making would fix majority of the crying on forums. If a dps guards a healer you just kill the dps they are taking 150% more damage. Go play solo ranked skank and see how fast you die. If you are referring to multiple tanks guarding, match making would fix this. Guard has always been a match making issues when there is mutilple tanks in the warzone and a L2P issue if there is one. I'll repeat *again* if 2 dps can get kills in arenas with a guard in play it's a l2p issue. So git gud and/or ask for match making. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shivax Posted December 21, 2017 Share Posted December 21, 2017 (edited) I'll repeat *again* if 2 dps can get kills in arenas with a guard in play it's a l2p issue. So git gud and/or ask for match making. And u re missing the point. U play dps, or only healer? If u do, are u one of those mindless dpses, kill, kill... Wzs are about objectives, not kills (tho it helps with objectives). P.S. Main point is enjoyment. Edited December 21, 2017 by Shivax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draqsko Posted December 21, 2017 Share Posted December 21, 2017 .... yeah I'm sure match making would fix majority of the crying on forums. If a dps guards a healer you just kill the dps they are taking 150% more damage. Go play solo ranked skank and see how fast you die. You don't even have to play solo ranked, just go into regs and throw guard on a healer as a dps, then have fun running back from respawn all game. On my guardian when specced DPS, I can get more protection with taunts and Guardian Leap than I can with guard simply because of how fast guard kills me. And I'm also more effective at peeling for the healer since I have to worry about my hp less and can spend more GCDs attacking than using defensives. And you are right, the only thing they need to do with regs is role matching. It's not complicated, there's no ELO to track or any of that crap, all you do is look at which specs are in the queue and only put equal healers and tanks into a match and backfill with DPS, allowing 1 extra tank or healer into a match on a side for quicker match making if needed. The only issue with doing it is developer time and money, since it likely wouldn't be a simple algorithm to just stick in the current match maker algorithm but something that would require testing to ensure nothing breaks. Simple concepts don't always translate into simple computer programs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shivax Posted December 21, 2017 Share Posted December 21, 2017 One healer per match would be perfect, but.. There is no hope! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissingaiur Posted December 21, 2017 Share Posted December 21, 2017 And u re missing the point. U play dps, or only healer? If u do, are u one of those mindless dpses, kill, kill... Wzs are about objectives, not kills (tho it helps with objectives). P.S. Main point is enjoyment. I play both dps and healer. Warzones are about team fighting, killing *and* objective. If you cannot kill the other enemy you will must likely lose. Match making, reducing the amount of healers and tanks in a warzone *would* make the game for fun. Healing is not overpower nor is guard. Having 5 of them in a match is overpowered. That's the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raansu Posted December 21, 2017 Share Posted December 21, 2017 I find it amazing that years later people are still ok with such a brainless mechanic. No CD, only tied to the GCD and no major drawback. Ya the tank takes half the damage, but its hardly an impact to a tank. Tack on taunts, and guard just becomes ridiculous. Guard should have been redesigned years ago and plenty of ideas have been thrown around over the years. Put guard on a CD, or make it so guard is breakable etc...The fire and forget with 50% damage reduction is just dumb. Tack on cross healing and it just becomes a parsing event where nothing dies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KendraP Posted December 21, 2017 Share Posted December 21, 2017 I repeat. Change guard to where it has a prolonged cool down or most of the other suggestions on this thread and there is no point in tanking any more. And since they have already made tanks of less use everywhere else I like having my niche. Making things difficult to kill is sort of the entire point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foambreaker Posted December 21, 2017 Author Share Posted December 21, 2017 RE: Multiple posts: Being bad and not knowing when to turn guard off are also not excuses for having a free 50% DR ability. You can justify any bull sh by saying the player uses it is bad. Explain your reasons with equally skilled players because that is the normal design basis. If you have to stoop to unequal skill comparisons it means your reasoning is probably wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KendraP Posted December 21, 2017 Share Posted December 21, 2017 (edited) RE: Multiple posts: Being bad and not knowing when to turn guard off are also not excuses for having a free 50% DR ability. You can justify any bull sh by saying the player uses it is bad. Explain your reasons with equally skilled players because that is the normal design basis. If you have to stoop to unequal skill comparisons it means your reasoning is probably wrong. Ok we want to play a game here goes: A dps spec of a tank capable class uses his guard. The slightest amount of pressure on this guy will result in him pulling the guard (because of he's a decent player he realizes he's dying right). This negates the guard anyway. Personally, I'd rather they take guard away from dps specs and give them better defenses than the complete BS where dps specs of tank capable classes are the glass cannons. Seriously sneeze in his direction and he'll probably have to remove the guard or die. As a tank even if I am running a skank set, I am not doing dps in the same sense as a dps character. Believe me or not it's your choice, but from experience I can tell you if my healer and I are having a stall war somewhere most likely it's a case of no one dying wherever we are. This is when the enemy team tries to split us, or try for the off node, or basically strategize somehow. If I'm allowed to assume the enemy team has good dps it's less of an issue because they probabky know how to focus properly and force guard swaps or simply burn through it. I and a buddy have focused guarded healers before and I play a vigi guardian and am hardly the best at dps (I'm a tank, if I'm dpsing, someone else wanted to try my job and I'm not going to run a 2 tank/healer/dps team). If my incredibly mediocre vigi guardian and 1 buddy can focus a healer through a guard quite frankly any reasonable team should be able to as well. Finally to my primary point for the 3rd time. Take my guard away and why exactly am I running a tank? Edited December 21, 2017 by KendraP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sayNih Posted December 21, 2017 Share Posted December 21, 2017 My DPS never uses guard in PvP. I guard a healer by killing anything that comes near it. I use guard in Veteran FPs, to keep low level players alive. A bolstered level 19 with 5 empty slots is squishy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raansu Posted December 21, 2017 Share Posted December 21, 2017 (edited) I repeat. Change guard to where it has a prolonged cool down or most of the other suggestions on this thread and there is no point in tanking any more. And since they have already made tanks of less use everywhere else I like having my niche. Making things difficult to kill is sort of the entire point. That's like saying there's no point in picking shield tanks in overwatch because the shields are breakable. Giving guard some kind of weakness is not making tanking in pvp useless, its giving it balance and making it less brainless than the current design. O Finally to my primary point for the 3rd time. Take my guard away and why exactly am I running a tank? No ones saying take guard away. It just needs to be changed to something more reasonable. Edited December 21, 2017 by Raansu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KendraP Posted December 21, 2017 Share Posted December 21, 2017 That's like saying there's no point in picking shield tanks in overwatch because the shields are breakable. Giving guard some kind of weakness is not making tanking in pvp useless, its giving it balance and making it less brainless than the current design. I don't play overwatch so I have no idea how that comparison works. The only mmo I play or have ever played is swtor. I have, however, mained a guardian tank since I started playing this game in the lead up to the 2.0 expansion. If I must point it out, I will. Guard has a rather short range in PvP where the 50% damage transfer works. This is a limitation in and of itself. Good tanks know to stay in this range and guardians in particular are well equipped to do so (i e. Guardian leap is my best friend). That said, separating the tank from his guarded target is always a good strategy. I point this out because it's not truly put it on and forget. As with all things tanking, you must maintain awareness of where your guarded target is, if he's kiting and where he is likely to kite to, whether to follow him or swap guard to someone closer to you for objective reasons, etc. As a tank I have literally decided who lives and who dies. A bad choice can lose the mstch; a good one can win it for us. No ones saying take guard away. It just needs to be changed to something more reasonable. I haven't seen one suggestion in this forum that would result in a "better" system. The overwhelming majority of these suggestions would merely make the role I perform as a tank nonexistent or better done by dps with taunt. Who are too squishy to use a guard anyway; so all the suggestions I've read would, in essence, get rid of guard and thereby tanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeneas_Falco Posted December 21, 2017 Share Posted December 21, 2017 (edited) .... yeah I'm sure match making would fix majority of the crying on forums. If a dps guards a healer you just kill the dps they are taking 150% more damage. Go play solo ranked skank and see how fast you die. If you are referring to multiple tanks guarding, match making would fix this. Guard has always been a match making issues when there is mutilple tanks in the warzone and a L2P issue if there is one. I'll repeat *again* if 2 dps can get kills in arenas with a guard in play it's a l2p issue. So git gud and/or ask for match making. Unlike arenas warzones also have objectives that matter more than killing, with the exception of Ancient Hypergate where killing is the best way to generate points. The main issue with guard in Regs isn't that someone receiving guard is unkillable. They can be killed, it's just that a single tank and healer combo can lock down a node. The TTK is too long resulting in situations where a node that is being pressured will nearly always get reinforcements before one of the two dies. A single-healer tank combo can prevent an entire team from capping long enough for reinforcements to get there and I've done it many times. It's why teams that have healer-tank combos nearly always defeat teams who don't have one of their own. That's why guard should come with a debuff that reduces the effectiveness of heals by 50% applied to the person doing the guarding. It would eliminate the ability of a single healer-tank combo to lock down a node against a zerg rush while still being useful in situations were the fight was even. It would also necessitate more guard-switching. Edited December 21, 2017 by Aeneas_Falco Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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