Class Changes: Corruption Sorcerer / Seer Consular

[CraigOnXD]

this nerf was fcking needed

[Labranth]

*** BioWare, are you crazy? Good job (no)

You are ruining the least of what's remained of that class!

[Jerba]

Finally. When I watch Sorc healers doing PvP on Twitch, it confuses me how easy it is for them to play their class, compared to my class, the Scoundrel. They have no pressure to top off the group and don't have to fear their survivabilty or force management, while I need way too many keybinds for defensives, stun breaks, medpacks and gap closers just to compete.

 

When I play PvP on a DPS, it is impossible to kill a Sorc healer by yourself, once you get them down to half life they just use Force Walk and heal-to-full. Even when knowing where their Force Walk had been placed, they have a 3 GCD window without any pressure.

 

For PvE, the situation is different of course. While the TTK in PvP is too high and survivability of both Sorc and Merc healers needs to be brought down, it should still be possible to clear all raiding content with any healer combination. I am a little worried that the Sage healer in our raid group will no longer be able to pull his weight post-5.3, but I guess he'll just switch to his Commando healer then.

Edited June 23, 2017 by Jerba

[Ianosm]

That whine, FeelsGoodMan. Time to leave overlord throne and start using brain to do good HPS.

 

Oh really? Like pressing 1 button for the highest hps aoe heal in the game like operative that you dont even have to place just literally stand there?

 

And you talking about whine is the ultimate irony, all you have been doing for months in game is whining about sorcs while still having higher hps both in records and in game than nearly all of them

[stu_ungar]

When I watch Sorc healers doing PvP on Twitch, it confuses me how easy it is for them to play their class

 

This basically sums up the relevancy of all complaints against sorc healers:

"They too easy, they have a teleport that takes me 2 rolls to catch them, my operative only has 200% dodge, roll, double roll, dodge on roll, gap closer, roll over edge advantage, escape combat, stealth, mezz..... nerf sorcs more pls, not fair."

[Ianosm]

This is nonsense. Anyone who thinks merc damage was OK is living in lala land, or has a vested interest. DCDs are in an odd place, yeah, and they do need nerfing... but that damage output always needed to be brought down.

 

And for those arguing that a massive nerf to damage for mercs will makes ops unclearable... yeah, OK; they're clearly gonna buff up other classes, so that damage loss will be made up by buffs spread out across other ACs. Mercs become part of the crowd, rather than sitting all on thier own. Deal with it.

 

 

 

Again, nonsense. Sorc heals was in a stupid place. They needed to be nerfed into the ground, hard. And posts saying as much are all of these boards, so when you say "no one was complaining about it", you're talking out of your backside.

 

This is exactly why class balance is fundamentally wrong because people like you just dont get it. You dont even put any argument forward. Sorc heals was in a stupid place, why? Merc damage was op, why?

 

Do you not see a direct correlation between a mercs ability to stay alive longer than most and their dps spikes? Do you think maybe your brain can comprehend that the problem isnt their dps numbers but the fact that the longer they stay alive the more dps they can do while other dps die faster? Therefore the simple concept is their dps is fine but reduce their survivability which will in turn naturally reduce their dps rather than flat % nerfs.

 

The exact same for sorcs, dont flat nerf heal percentages which are fine compared directly to other heals. Instead reduce their mobility/utility/force usage, make them think about abilities more.

 

Or just carry on and say 'oh they are in a crazy place' but offer no argument or evidence, seems to be what everyone else does

[Shipwright]

Hmm, bodes ill for healers in general to me. I maybe wrong, but from the OP they are not done with healers yet. We could see Scoundrel and Operative healers take such a hit too.

[GUN_GAME]

Oh really? Like pressing 1 button for the highest hps aoe heal in the game like operative that you dont even have to place just literally stand there?

 

And you talking about whine is the ultimate irony, all you have been doing for months in game is whining about sorcs while still having higher hps both in records and in game than nearly all of them

I suggest you to jump into s-r or t-r on your oper/merc healer and do unlimited HPS:p

All operative insane hps coming from ppl stacking in aoe heal and freecast.

[indelible]

This is exactly why class balance is fundamentally wrong because people like you just dont get it. You dont even put any argument forward. Sorc heals was in a stupid place, why? Merc damage was op, why?

 

You fundamentally misunderstood the point I was making. You also don't seem to understand the relativity that exists between damage/healing and DCDs/ACDs/utilities. If merc damage wasn't brought down, utilities would have had to be nerfed into the ground. To compensate for the higher damage threshold. Merc damage was too high, and it needed to be brought down whether you like it or not.

 

And here's where my point really shines: the utility changes will almost certainly focus on adding some of that damage back in via utility burst. DCDs will almost certainly be nerfed too. It makes sense to do it this way; one of the biggest complaints about mercs is that they're too easy to play. By nerfing the damage down and shifting damage output to utilities, and making DCDs less effective, merc players will actually have to do something with their time.

 

It's a holistic process, and people are getting lost in the raw damage/healing changes. I don't agree with the approach BW are taking, and I think they should be folding damage and utility changes together, but utility changes will flesh these issues out in August.

 

Do you not see a direct correlation between a mercs ability to stay alive longer than most and their dps spikes? Do you think maybe your brain can comprehend that the problem isnt their dps numbers but the fact that the longer they stay alive the more dps they can do while other dps die faster? Therefore the simple concept is their dps is fine but reduce their survivability which will in turn naturally reduce their dps rather than flat % nerfs.

 

Don't talk to me about correlation when you're entirely dismissing utility changes coming in August in order to rage about damage changes in July. Don't expect me to take you at all seriously when you can't even engage in a basic, polite discussion without resorting to borderline, passive-aggressive rhetorical questions.

 

The exact same for sorcs, dont flat nerf heal percentages which are fine compared directly to other heals. Instead reduce their mobility/utility/force usage, make them think about abilities more.

 

Or just carry on and say 'oh they are in a crazy place' but offer no argument or evidence, seems to be what everyone else does

 

Or alternatively, flat nerf numbers across the board and bring some of those numbers back in with utilities, requiring players to actually play rather than turret damage/heal? I mean... I'm not sure why that's such a complicated idea....

[Ianosm]

I suggest you to jump into s-r or t-r on your oper/merc healer and do unlimited HPS:p

All operative insane hps coming from ppl stacking in aoe heal and freecast.

 

Ignore the point about you still having higher hps in records and in game than sorc heals.

 

But yeah the meta in the game now in dps is single target focus primarily and sorcs are better at single target healing. So what? Ops were better at aoe heals when dot spread was meta.

 

Your solution is to whine and complain that sorcs do one aspect of healing better than your class and simply because its more relevant in the game meta now you think is reason enough to nerf them into the ground so you can go back to being top hps...oh no wait you already are...

[Ianosm]

You fundamentally misunderstood the point I was making. You also don't seem to understand the relativity that exists between damage/healing and DCDs/ACDs/utilities. If merc damage wasn't brought down, utilities would have had to be nerfed into the ground. To compensate for the higher damage threshold. Merc damage was too high, and it needed to be brought down whether you like it or not.

 

And here's where my point really shines: the utility changes will almost certainly focus on adding some of that damage back in via utility burst. DCDs will almost certainly be nerfed too. It makes sense to do it this way; one of the biggest complaints about mercs is that they're too easy to play. By nerfing the damage down and shifting damage output to utilities, and making DCDs less effective, merc players will actually have to do something with their time.

 

It's a holistic process, and people are getting lost in the raw damage/healing changes. I don't agree with the approach BW are taking, and I think they should be folding damage and utility changes together, but utility changes will flesh these issues out in August.

 

 

 

Don't talk to me about correlation when you're entirely dismissing utility changes coming in August in order to rage about damage changes in July. Don't expect me to take you at all seriously when you can't even engage in a basic, polite discussion without resorting to borderline, passive-aggressive rhetorical questions.

 

 

 

Or alternatively, flat nerf numbers across the board and bring some of those numbers back in with utilities, requiring players to actually play rather than turret damage/heal? I mean... I'm not sure why that's such a complicated idea....

 

Contradicting your own points so not even sure where you are going.

 

Again I will try point out in simple terms, mercs are not overpefroming with dps numbers as in highest hits or dps or anything like that. Their actual numbers are in line with maras, guardians, snipers etc. The reason why mercs are overpefroming is their dcds plain and simple, they have way more survivability and utility than most dps.

 

Again with sages, purely on numbers they dont outperform ops/scoundrels so I dont know what you are getting at. Highest hps recorda are still operatives/scoundrels.

So I dont know why you think a flat percentage nerf solves problems when the problem isnt the numbers....

How does a change to numbers force a sorc to think more about rotation or not turret heal....they will do the same only less healing....nothing about their rotation has changed...

 

By changing the utilities, ability cooldowns etc as I am suggesting rather then numbers you force playstyle changes

[Severith]

 

But here's the thing...

 

That's how it's supposed to be. DPSers shouldn't be knocking healers on their asses just because they've done enough damage to kill almost anyone else, how else could it possibly work and allow healers to be able to do their jobs? If one DPSer, even a Carnage Marauder or a balls deep skank tank, if they could be a threat to healers in the short term and make it so not only could the healer not be healing others because he's on death's door needing to concentraite on his own survival, the healer could not do their job to the group.

 

Is it annoying sometimes? Yeah it is.

 

 

Here's the real thing:

 

A melee dps should be able to shut down a healer. Not kill quickly, but shut down the healer's ability to heal the group. If no one is helping that healer, a single melee should put the healer on the defensive to the point where the two players cancel each other out.

 

That is the definition of balance. One class being fundamentally equal to another.

 

These nerfs, though large, don't even come close to that point yet. Even if they did, almost every variable in an arena or wz favors healing over dps. Guards. Taunts. Stun grenades. Mobility and line of sight tactics. Roots and slows. All of these factors hurt dps more than they hurt healing.

 

A good melee should be able to kill an average healer. That's clearly not the case now with sorc healing. Hopefully 5.3 somewhat remedies that.

[SilverStarSeaker]

I hope your pvpers and sm guys that haven't already done your old *** content can support your game cause any chance of pve raids which seemed to be coming back a little more is over the HM and NIM stuff is already challenging as is for most now its goona be wipe feast and I know people I play with are sick of leveling through same content to get set back to old damage/healing levels every time ur characters nevr get stronger whats the point? and your pvp on iokath went well for ya? no one ever there. so keep changing things for pvpers and when u done they all switch to which ever class is most op and for the sorc in my raid team tuff **** the merc too bad the guy who use to play mm then sorc now merc u messing his class up yet again 5.3 then end for me

 

Lol yeah the NiM raiders are what's carrying this game /s

Not sure what the Iokath comment was meant to do but I don't think any pvper cared to try that xD The devs really havnt had much interest in encouraging open world pvp in any meaningful way. Hell even just bringing back flagging and removing level sync in some pvp zones would be enough to give a lot of people the push.

 

Lol gotta love your logic though "Pvpers force nerfs on fotm classes!" then "Pvpers only play fotm".

 

Anyways, I'm sure we'll miss you! o/

[ottffsse]

Here's the real thing:

 

A melee dps should be able to shut down a healer. Not kill quickly, but shut down the healer's ability to heal the group. If no one is helping that healer, a single melee should put the healer on the defensive to the point where the two players cancel each other out.

 

That is the definition of balance. One class being fundamentally equal to another.

 

These nerfs, though large, don't even come close to that point yet. Even if they did, almost every variable in an arena or wz favors healing over dps. Guards. Taunts. Stun grenades. Mobility and line of sight tactics. Roots and slows. All of these factors hurt dps more than they hurt healing.

 

A good melee should be able to kill an average healer. That's clearly not the case now with sorc healing. Hopefully 5.3 somewhat remedies that.

 

Really? I am not disputing what should or should not be but should this be the case there is no point in playing a healer really or a trinity comp in a 4v4 wz. Just go 4 Merc/ fotm survivable dps and systematically global one player after another in the opposition. Getting the first quick kill in a 4v4 arena is always the way to go for an edge and if healers are gimped to just what you describe above no reason not to go 4 good dps classes with great dcds and built in off-heals+multiple electro nets ftw.

[GUN_GAME]

Ignore the point about you still having higher hps in records and in game than sorc heals.

As i said all operatives numbers came from aoe fluff healing and freecast

But yeah the meta in the game now in dps is single target focus primarily and sorcs are better at single target healing. So what? Ops were better at aoe heals when dot spread was meta.

Emmm last season when cleave were meta even more healers were sorcs guess why xd

[Lahandra]

I look at these numbers, and my heart just sinks when I consider what it will mean for our raiding group.

 

What... you mean no more god heals??? The group might have to actually not stand in stupid??? Or, and I know it's a big stretch, DPS and Tanks might actually have to go back to analyzing what damage types are going out and use the appropriate DCD's to compensate???? Oh.... the agony...... lol

[Severith]

Really? I am not disputing what should or should not be but should this be the case there is no point in playing a healer really or a trinity comp in a 4v4 wz. Just go 4 Merc/ fotm survivable dps and systematically global one player after another in the opposition. Getting the first quick kill in a 4v4 arena is always the way to go for an edge and if healers are gimped to just what you describe above no reason not to go 4 good dps classes with great dcds and built in off-heals+multiple electro nets ftw.

 

That's right. If you're a healer who isn't getting help from your teammates in the form of peeling, taunts, guards, then balance wise you should be better off just playing a dps instead. That isn't the case in 5.2 though, with sorc healers.

[NHBabe]

I get why some people think that Sorc heals are so OP. DPS attack them, and they can unload enough damage on them to bring a brick wall down and yet they just keep going. It seems like no matter how much damage you're doing to them, even the heaviest hitters can only put some dents in them. It's like they are unstoppable.

 

But here's the thing...

 

That's how it's supposed to be. DPSers shouldn't be knocking healers on their asses just because they've done enough damage to kill almost anyone else, how else could it possibly work and allow healers to be able to do their jobs? If one DPSer, even a Carnage Marauder or a balls deep skank tank, if they could be a threat to healers in the short term and make it so not only could the healer not be healing others because he's on death's door needing to concentraite on his own survival, the healer could not do their job to the group.

 

Is it annoying sometimes? Yeah it is.

 

I hate seeing what would otherwise be a 27k Devistating Blast on another opponent chopped down to a 10k hit. You just know your losing so much damage in the process, unable to put the damage you are capably of doing out there. But, it needs to be that way.

 

It isn't that you can't bring down a healer, a single DPSer can, it's just going to take a while, it's going to be hard, and you're not going to get the full value of your attacks on them. But putting pressure on a healer, even if you aren't doing enough damage to bring that healer down anytime soon, you can still put them on the defensive, you can still make them have to pay more attention on you as the attacker so that that attention isn't being paid to his group's health needs as much as had you just left the healer alone.

 

A good healer does, will, and should take a a good while to widdle down, once they start running low on resources and they start to realize thing's are looking Grim [pun very much intended] you can get them running scared.

 

I have to say, and to be fair here, I've never played a healer, but to me, it looks really, really hard. I cannot for the life me of me figure out how healers keep track of everyone's health, maintain raid awareness/WZ awareness, AND fight of all of their attackers at the same time. I mean, DPSing can't be any where near that hard. Healer's are literally marked for death in PVP heh, everyone and their mother wants to wack the healer.

 

Did Corruption sorcs need a nerf, well, yeah probably a bit, but this?

 

I knew, the second I read this line "These changes will undoubtedly look and feel harsh to players who have been healing on their Sorcerers / Sages for a long time." That it was going to be over the top.

 

They went to far with Merc DPS, they went too far with corruption sorcs, they went too far with DPS sorc self heals.

 

And you know what? They're going to go too far on every class they touch. It might not by your class this time around, but it will be next time or the time after that. I think they are going to touch every single class and spec in the game and I think we're all going to be very unhappy when this "class balance" is all done. I have no faith in this. Not one ounce.

 

I completely agree. I don't PVP for many reasons any more, and I won't get into them in this thread as it really isn't applicable, but from a PVE stand-point Corruption/Seer was "balanced" compared to the other healing classes already, and I play all 3.

 

If PVP is such an issue then like others have suggested, make the nerf applicable only when entering a PVP area. If the problem is DPS have some healing abilities, then remove all healing from DPS specs. It is no different than those complaining that some DPS classes can tank better than some Tanks. If it's such a problem for a DPS spec to have tanking abilities - remove them then. DPS should only have DPS abilities and let the Tanks and Healers do their jobs - don't nerf them into the ground to where they are not possible to be played doing ANY content in the game. I do not see how Corruption/Seer in full 248 augmented gear will be able to Heal in a NiM OP with these changes. I'm pretty sure there are even some out there that will have a problem healing in a HM Op due to DPS not doing their jobs quickly enough and an enrage happens that previously we may have been able to heal a few through to then end the boss before the whole group wiped, or those DPS that are just not situationally aware enough to stay consistently out of stupid and we have to heal them through it.

 

For all of you that are in this thread clapping at these changes and throwing parties.....Just remember the sayings from HiveMind's Healing in an MMO video on youtube:

 

Lesson 6: You are a God. You hold the power to life and indirectly to death as well. Feel free to use this ability as loosely as possible. Just so you know, there will be many petty and vengeful gods out there and if you think they'll heal you, think again!

 

And don't forget the Healer's Motto: There's a time to take damage. There's a time to deal it. There's a time to ignore all else and do your best to heal it. Then there's a time to laugh while they all BURN!

 

So you that complained about OP healing and PVP, well guess what? You've probably lost a good deal of healers that were keeping you alive in that warzone. Just remember as you continually die that it's YOUR FAULT nobody is there to heal you.

[Ianosm]

As i said all operatives numbers came from aoe fluff healing and freecast

 

Emmm last season when cleave were meta even more healers were sorcs guess why xd

 

So....still highest hps in game? Thanks for clearing that up.

 

You're genuinely trying to argue that operatives dont have better aoe healing than sorcs?....seriously now

 

The reason more people play sorcs is they are easier to play, I have said that many times. Make them harder to play I agree but nefing numbers doesnt achieve that it just makes it a weak class.

 

But I get it, you dont care as long as you can win or cheese acid or whatever it is you're doing these days. And you're getting your wish it seems and Keith plays op/scoundrel heals so.....

[ivanhedgehog]

I concur. You have my full support sir. Lets have the other changes in there too.

So we can actually see how they all play into eachother.

 

I want to see the devs livestream a NIM dp run with these changes. Run 4 lightning sorcs, 2 sorc heals. lets see them clear the content.

[Lahandra]

Again I will try point out in simple terms, mercs are not overpefroming with dps numbers as in highest hits or dps or anything like that. Their actual numbers are in line with maras, guardians, snipers etc.

 

Hence the reason they needed the nerf.... smh.... Maras are supposed to be higher as they are melee, guardians as well, and snipers are getting the nerf bat to vir and engi...... See how that works???

[indelible]

Contradicting your own points so not even sure where you are going.

 

Erm?

 

"This is nonsense. Anyone who thinks merc damage was OK is living in lala land, or has a vested interest. DCDs are in an odd place, yeah, and they do need nerfing... but that damage output always needed to be brought down."

Edited June 23, 2017 by indelible

[SilverStarSeaker]

So....still highest hps in game? Thanks for clearing that up.

 

You're genuinely trying to argue that operatives dont have better aoe healing than sorcs?....seriously now

 

The reason more people play sorcs is they are easier to play, I have said that many times. Make them harder to play I agree but nefing numbers doesnt achieve that it just makes it a weak class.

 

But I get it, you dont care as long as you can win or cheese acid or whatever it is you're doing these days. And you're getting your wish it seems and Keith plays op/scoundrel heals so.....

 

Salty lol

[ivanhedgehog]

I play all three healing classes and with 5.0 and the force changes my sorc heal parses in operations dropped 1000 hps and i saw no change at all in pvp...now you hit a healer with a sledger hammer and expect them to do their job totally ridiculous....my arsenal merc is gone and now my 3 sorc healers....WOW !!!

 

There is going to be a lot more LF2 Heals in fleet chat. and teams failing to form due to that. followed by lost subs.

[Zerileth]

I want to see the devs livestream a NIM dp run with these changes. Run 4 lightning sorcs, 2 sorc heals. lets see them clear the content.

 

This.... So this.

 

People already give me a bad time with my lightning sorc in MM fps. Now my Cor Sor will be hated. I'm with the person that is asking BW which class they want us to play.

 

Why do you guys hate sorc/sage so much?