Server Merge Discussion Thread

[HuaRya]

In the podcast Keith in charge of dev staff decided to bring up new mega servers designed to max out toons with out lag. The mega servers will allow guild banks and ships to move along with legacy.

 

established servers stay status quo

 

Cool Ain't it? Not even worth paying attention to the thread replies that haven't listened to it. If servers are like cars then it's the old Dodge Caravan versus the new Tesla in the driveway. Which one do you take to work?

[TUXs]

Make transfers free and close the dead servers to new accounts. That's what I would suggest as the best course at this point.

[Torvai]

Alright. I just checked my Server, Vanjervalis Chain.

Note that it's 4:45 pm by now, so not primetime yet, and it's summer, so population is bound to be a tad lower than usual.

 

BUT

22/26 Shadows/Sins

25/41 Sages/Sorcs

29/39 Guardians/Juggs

21/38 Sents/Maras

6/15 Scoundrels/Opers

15/23 Slinger/Snipers

21/34 Mandos/Mercs

9/9 Vang/PTs

 

Overall 373 players online. If I'm generous it'll be 500 during prime time overall. This is supposed to be this way?

 

Edit: Just checked JKS for fun: It's overall 80 players online at 5:05 pm. So if someone from Blizzard ever wonders what a healthy population looks like, tell them to check swtors german servers

Edited June 26, 2017 by Torvai

[Exly]

As another poster pointed out, it is very UNUSUAL for an MMO to offer incentivized transfers FROM low pop servers TO high pop servers,

 

The norm is to offer incentivized transfers FROM high pop servers TO low pop servers.

 

Again, it seems some are so focused on the server merges that they want that they refuse to see the hypocrisy that they spew or how their desires will negatively impact others. Even if they could see how their desires would negatively impact other players, I doubt they would care, as long as they get what they want.

 

We can go round and round on this forever. i will not "shut up". I will continue to voice my opinions.

 

This game gave free transfers to players FROM low population servers TO higher population servers back in 2012 before the first forced server merger. So while most games might not do it, this game has a history of having done it.

[Icykill_]

This game gave free transfers to players FROM low population servers TO higher population servers back in 2012 before the first forced server merger. So while most games might not do it, this game has a history of having done it.

 

That's a good point, I forgot all about that.

[Andryah]

This game gave free transfers to players FROM low population servers TO higher population servers back in 2012 before the first forced server merger. So while most games might not do it, this game has a history of having done it.

 

Not quite.

 

What they did was for a short time, before they started forced merges, they allowed players some freedom to move in advance if they wanted to. This was preparation for them deploying newer larger servers and scrambling everything all over again. So it really had little point, because once they launched the new servers, they in effect force merged everyone (and damaged a lot of guilds in the process). http://www.swtor.com/transfer

 

Why did they do it? Simply to give themselves some time until they had the new servers ready in September of 2012. Why? Because people were tired of rerolling to change servers. In other words.. it was a deliberate distraction to limit cancellations.. and once they went live with the new servers... they have NEVER offered free transfers from low pop to high pop servers since fall of 2012 (4 and a half years ago).

 

Not a precedent by any means.

Edited June 26, 2017 by Andryah

[Exly]

Not quite.

 

What they did was for a short time, before they started forced merges, they allowed players some freedom to move in advance if they wanted to. This was preparation for them deploying newer larger servers and scrambling everything all over again. So it really had little point, because once they launched the new servers, they in effect force merged everyone (and damaged a lot of guilds in the process). http://www.swtor.com/transfer

 

Why did they do it? Simply to give themselves some time until they had the new servers ready in September of 2012. Why? Because people were tired of rerolling to change servers. In other words.. it was a deliberate distraction to limit cancellations.. and once they went live with the new servers... they have NEVER offered free transfers from low pop to high pop servers since fall of 2012 (4 and a half years ago).

 

Not a precedent by any means.

 

Ok, so they said and did this:

Earlier this summer we launched the Free Character Transfer Program which offered players the option to transfer their characters from specific origin servers to selected higher population destination servers. Following the success of the Free Character Transfer Program, and after closely monitoring server populations, we have now taken the next step in our on-going server population balancing process. We have upgraded destination servers in order to support a significantly higher number of players. In addition to this, all characters on origin servers have now been automatically transferred to be consolidated onto the upgraded destination servers. By centralizing our player populations on these higher population destination servers, we feel that we can offer our players the best possible Star Wars™: The Old Republic™ experience.

 

So there is a precedence of them doing it before. Thank you for providing proof to support my argument.

[HuaRya]

Make transfers free and close the dead servers to new accounts. That's what I would suggest as the best course at this point.

 

That would be the logical Step 1.

[Ratajack]

Ok, so they said and did this:

 

 

So there is a precedence of them doing it before. Thank you for providing proof to support my argument.

 

So, you completely ignore the accuracy of what Andryah wrote.

 

Those "transfers" were not really voluntary, were they? After all, how voluntary is a transfer when a player is told "You can move from serer X to server Y now, or you can wait for us to forcibly move you to server Y, but either way, you are going to end up on server Y, regardless of where you want to be."

 

How many times have they offered FREE transfers from a low pop server to a high pop server in the 4 1/2 years since that "precedent"?

 

Remember Keith's words, that they do not want to FORCE anyone to move.

 

Now, is it entirely possible that IF BW can resolve all the technical issues surrounding transfers regarding guilds and guild assets, as well as all personal assets, and they add new larger, higher capacity servers, that BW may offer "free" transfers from the existing servers to those new servers? Yes, but it is just as possible that BW will be unable to resolve all the issues surrounding transfers or that any transfers offered to new larger, higher capacity servers would not be free.

 

We will just have to wait to see how this all plays out.

[Icykill_]

That would be the logical Step 1.

 

The people wanting the status queue are Fearful

"Fear is the enemy of Logic". Frank Sinatra

https://goo.gl/images/9FMNj9

 

The Fearful are angry and the rest of us are suffering,

"Fear is the path to the dark side…fear leads to anger…anger leads to hate…hate leads to suffering". Yoda

https://goo.gl/images/PsGpvk

[Ratajack]

The people wanting the status queue are Fearful

"Fear is the enemy of Logic". Frank Sinatra

https://goo.gl/images/9FMNj9

 

The Fearful are angry and the rest of us are suffering,

"Fear is the path to the dark side…fear leads to anger…anger leads to hate…hate leads to suffering". Yoda

https://goo.gl/images/PsGpvk

 

Is it impossible that those wanting "maximum LFG fodder" are fearful that players may actually leave the cesspool that is Harbinger (or other higher population servers) in favor of lower population servers with more respectful communities if BW were to allow "free" transfers from any server to any server, thus leading to their insistence that "free" transfers only be discriminatorily allowed.

[casirabit]

The people wanting the status queue are Fearful

"Fear is the enemy of Logic". Frank Sinatra

https://goo.gl/images/9FMNj9

 

The Fearful are angry and the rest of us are suffering,

"Fear is the path to the dark side…fear leads to anger…anger leads to hate…hate leads to suffering". Yoda

https://goo.gl/images/PsGpvk

 

And a better saying from Obi-Wan

Only a Sith deals in absolutes.

[DWho]

How about this as a possibility.

 

Assuming all of the issues that have been brought up in this thread can be resolved and Bioware deems it necessary to merge servers for financial reasons. There would be additional technical hurdles to overcome as well.

 

What about creating an instance on the new server for each existing server and putting a 24 hour timer on switching between those instances (could be lengthened if disruptive behavior starts to surface). That way you could PVP on the Harbinger instance or wherever and then switch back to your home instance for PVE the next day. This would sort of be a cross between cross server queuing and a megaserver. The communities on each "server" would be intact but people could move more freely between them as they desired. This would of course require a heavy crackdown on credit-spammers/farmers and trolls moving back and forth between "server" instances. Instances within instances would have to be worked out or you could end up with several hundred people on the fleet within the Harbinger instance.

[Icykill_]

And a better saying from Obi-Wan

Only a Sith deals in absolutes.

 

That is a good saying...

 

I like this one too...

 

"Logic is the beginning of wisdom, not the end". Leonard Nimoy"

https://goo.gl/images/tBcjBZ

[Icykill_]

How about this as a possibility.

 

Assuming all of the issues that have been brought up in this thread can be resolved and Bioware deems it necessary to merge servers for financial reasons. There would be additional technical hurdles to overcome as well.

 

What about creating an instance on the new server for each existing server and putting a 24 hour timer on switching between those instances (could be lengthened if disruptive behavior starts to surface). That way you could PVP on the Harbinger instance or wherever and then switch back to your home instance for PVE the next day. This would sort of be a cross between cross server queuing and a megaserver. The communities on each "server" would be intact but people could move more freely between them as they desired. This would of course require a heavy crackdown on credit-spammers/farmers and trolls moving back and forth between "server" instances. Instances within instances would have to be worked out or you could end up with several hundred people on the fleet within the Harbinger instance.

 

Not a bad idea, actually its quite good. It's got some rough edges, but most of those can be addressed easily.

The biggest problem with it being good is it will be picked apparent and destroyed by those only wanting the status quoe. To the point that everyone will forget what a good idea it was.

 

We should possibly build on this idea and see where it ends up.

[Andryah]

So there is a precedence of them doing it before. Thank you for providing proof to support my argument.

 

A "one off" decision.... for the purpose of trying to hold subscribers while they worked to get actual server transfers to new servers and consolidate over a hundred servers down to a little over a dozen =/= support for your argument of precedence. By your logic.. there is precedence for continuing unique class stories.. yet... it has never happened, and there are no signs it ever will either.

 

I know you want very much for it to be true.. but it clearly is not.

Edited June 26, 2017 by Andryah

[Andryah]

How about this as a possibility.

 

Assuming all of the issues that have been brought up in this thread can be resolved and Bioware deems it necessary to merge servers for financial reasons. There would be additional technical hurdles to overcome as well.

 

What about creating an instance on the new server for each existing server and putting a 24 hour timer on switching between those instances (could be lengthened if disruptive behavior starts to surface). That way you could PVP on the Harbinger instance or wherever and then switch back to your home instance for PVE the next day. This would sort of be a cross between cross server queuing and a megaserver. The communities on each "server" would be intact but people could move more freely between them as they desired. This would of course require a heavy crackdown on credit-spammers/farmers and trolls moving back and forth between "server" instances. Instances within instances would have to be worked out or you could end up with several hundred people on the fleet within the Harbinger instance.

 

Creative idea, but in my view.. it would end up creating more potential problems then is solves... beginning with support and maintenance issues, bugs, etc. etc. But the biggest issue is probably the opening it gives various exploiters and ToS breakers.

Edited June 26, 2017 by Andryah

[DWho]

Creative idea, but in my view.. it would end up creating more potential problems then is solves... beginning with support and maintenance issues, bugs, etc. etc. But the biggest issue is probably the opening it gives various exploiters and ToS breakers.

 

Agreed. There are a number of technical challenges to this kind of setup (although there is some semblance of it now with PVP and PVE instances being together on one server) but the biggest issue to deal with by far would be the spammer/farmers and trolls. By making it easier for everyone to move, you make it easier for them to move as well. It would take a serious commitment from Bioware to stamp out these exploiters. I think severely reducing their numbers can be done but would require an active role for the game monitors.

[Lunafox]

That is a good saying...

 

I like this one too...

 

"Logic is the beginning of wisdom, not the end". Leonard Nimoy"

https://goo.gl/images/tBcjBZ

 

You can quote all the platitudes you like that serve your argument, but it's not going to do one iota to protect the billions I've spent, as well as real life money in the game, and the fact that my experience will be ruined if I lose my guild houses and guild ships and all the decos I can't even get anymore. Not to mention, dyes, clothing slots, banks and names.

 

So I FEAR losing my stuff. That doesn't make me wrong. Because if I lose my stuff, it's game over for me, and others like me. There is no recovering from that kind of loss. And all because you lot want a faster queue time. Well, as others have said, there is no guarantee that your queue will pop faster. I know I don't play group content and never will, so that will not do anything for your queue pops. Even less if I and others like me, quit.

 

You say that others (people like you) suffer because of the fearful (people like me) but what about our suffering? You don't care about those losing their stuff. It's not your money and not your credits.

Edited June 26, 2017 by Lunafox

[Graedous]

Thank you Eric!

 

I am all for mergers because I believe keeping dead servers active does more harm than good. Players who return to, or roll on, those dead servers, are faced with the illusion that SWTOR is a dead game...which it is not.

 

There are a few primary concerns:

• Guild assets

• RP servers

• Names

 

Guild assets should be handled in advance of any merger by Bioware, on a case by case basic. Guild ships and guild strongholds would need to be unlocked on a new server and special help in reforming guilds should happen. Any merger needs to be as smooth as possible and guilds are one of the most important assets of this game.

 

RP server either need to continue to exist, or they need to have special accommodations in a merged scenario.

 

Name purge prior to any transfers and moving high population servers to the lower pop ones is what I would expect. That doesn't negate naming issues, but it does help.

 

One additional thing I would like, with or without a merger, is an expansion of the /ignore list. The current limit is too low and I believe it needs to be higher.

 

I agree 100% with everything stated in this post. Keeping these low populated servers running is bad for business. Either merge these inactive servers or mark them as such.

 

There's a very good chance that new and returning players will end up on these inactive servers and assume that the game is dead. I mean, no one's even there to tell them otherwise:confused: More so, think about how frustrated they would be once they realize that their server is "dead" and they have to pay in order to xfer!

 

My suggestion merge them all into 3 big servers (EC WC EU), do it as best you can. Inevitably there will be issues that will need to be tweaked but this would be a step in the right direction for this game.

 

Thank you Eric for making this thread!

 

P.s. So much more to say about this topic but typing it out on my phone isn't fun

 

Graedous/Vladerov

<Bringers of Madness>

Jedi Covenant

Edited June 27, 2017 by Graedous
Typo

[Icykill_]

Anyone who hasn't actually listened to the badfeeling pod cast with Keith really should.

http://badfeelingpodcast.com. Episode 162

It's obvious that he cares and understands the issues of population density. He has a grasp on the issues from both sides of this discussion and I think what ever their solution it will be to accommodate as many of us as possible.

I really like how he wants to protect people's preferred type of play and the feel of the servers they want to play on. He seems to be across all of the points we've brought up in this thread. From guild assets to pop times.

I urge anyone who hasn't listened and is still arguing the same points over and over, to go and hear what he has to say.

Also I personally feel that trying to dissect of interpret what he said is pointless until "he" is ready to give us more info. It's obvious that all options are on the table to fix the population issues (except cross server and he explains why no x-server). I think we can safely say they will do their best to make us all happy, but let's wait and see what that is.

What I'd do think would help is to keep adding new ideas or concerns to the thread. What I don't think will help is rehashing the same arguments and tearing each other to shreds, if you don't have anything positive to say or add to the discussion please don't post. If people see those sorts of post it would also help if we just ignore them or not respond. It will then be easier for Keith to follow the thread.

[Sargrith]

I would rather they not merge servers. I don't want mine to change either because it is merged to another or because others are brought to it. TEH is just as I like it. It might not be perfect but its something I have learned to work with.

 

The game isn't growing in popularity and I doubt it will. Some new people will come some old go but unless they completely revamp the game we are were we are. If people are still logging in spending time in game its because they are happy with what they have. A server merge will change that, and while some will be more happy others will leave, its the way of change some like it some can't live with it. I simply don't think the game can survive chase people off like it did with GC/RNG.

 

Fix the content, try and rebuild trust in the game and its path first then give it a look. I admit Keith is doing things, but not much has changed in game honestly. Yes we are promised class changes and balancing but frankly its been kind of poorly half balanced stuff. Only hitting some classes while others are clearly just as bad or worse, hitting sages in hps but leaving ops who's raw number were even higher before hand. Only changing one aspect of a class while its really another that is a problem, merc defenses are a far bigger issue then their dps for instance. And its the end of June and all, its more than halfway through this year and still only one boss fight for the new op, still no actual balance changes, still GC/RNG which frankly isn't liked by many, still only one companion returned (2 but you have to choose the one you get and all) in a rather poorly done way at that, a solo area that few use (at least by the numbers I see and I know I hate it), and what? What has really been improved that will bring people back or get them to try it? So far lots of talk, which is good but it took a long time to happen even after Keith took over, and while talk is good it isn't action which at this point we've seen little of.

 

Mergers will change things nothing more, but it wont fix things, it wont create content, draw new players, or get old players to come back. Forget mergers until your ready to close shop and want to drag things out a little longer. Make real changes to the game and try and rebuild it first.

[Pliskie]

What I'd do think would help is to keep adding new ideas or concerns to the thread. What I don't think will help is rehashing the same arguments and tearing each other to shreds, if you don't have anything positive to say or add to the discussion please don't post. If people see those sorts of post it would also help if we just ignore them or not respond. It will then be easier for Keith to follow the thread.

 

I agree mostly with that statement but the judgement of what is positive or negative is not yours to make. It looks more like you try to censor certain negative things out and that cant be the idea of a usefull discourse. Some people might have critism on Keiths idea and for gods sake they need to post it. The statement "we end at the same spot in the future then with the new mageservers" is an absolute valid comment which must be discussed and looked at on all sides. If something on those arguments annoys you, Icey, because you have the feeling the thing does not move forward, you have to soldier through it or ignore it, sorry.

 

To the ideas:

What I would like to see is cross faction (pls read again cross- faction) to warzones, GSF, FPs, uprisings and operations. Maybe even guilds which of course leads to the question of allowing cross faction chat. If the TOFN community can maintain an ingame chat, why not make an official one from BWs side? With the story around the Alliance we have a story bound explanation for that, I think. For me it just makes no sense at all, that the 5 republic PvP players and the 11 imperial players have to wait till the numbers of the republic rise to 8 just because Odessen is not the next warzone. (Is it Odessen which is cross faction already?). Or the GSF pilots. With the Gods of the machine ops... this is just hilarious. Our tank decided against the norm currently to update his achievements so now when we spontanously want to go for it, we can only hope that he did not switch sides at this day. I find that practic questionable. Sure that idea might need some new voice overs on certain points but for heavens sake the ques could go faster especially on servers with a large gap between imperial and republic communities.

 

Also the most important thing in any MMORPG are the guilds. Our guild tools are horribly lacking I think. There is no way to check for guilds without relying on third hand ressources like forums or websites. In game (especially on bigger servers) guild spam takes so much room from general chat, that a lot of LFG is simply overseen. Guild advertisements are long, they mostly take a normal guild window, so when somebody asks for a LFG on large servers, boom boom guild advertisement, case closed. If the recruiters then go into a war with spamming right behind the other (as if that ever would help a lot) it turns out close to impossible to get a group. EQ2 had an guild introduction page where people could look for guilds and the GM of said guild or officers from it where listed next to what the guild focussed on. Why is no such system implemented allowing recruiter and recruit coming together a lot faster, with lesser annoyance and without hopping through the /who command if you are newer and want to add an alt to the guild?

[Exly]

A "one off" decision.... for the purpose of trying to hold subscribers while they worked to get actual server transfers to new servers and consolidate over a hundred servers down to a little over a dozen =/= support for your argument of precedence. By your logic.. there is precedence for continuing unique class stories.. yet... it has never happened, and there are no signs it ever will either.

 

I know you want very much for it to be true.. but it clearly is not.

 

The difference is that BioWare has told us that they are interested in our opinions on server mergers, and have asked us to keep discussing the issue in this thread so that they can get an idea of what we would like to see.

 

To that end, some people, myself included, think that it would be a good idea for BioWare to grant people the opportunity to move characters from low population server to higher population servers in advance of doing whatever mergers they may be considering. What's wrong with that, and what is wrong with providing a reminder that they have done so before?

 

P.s. About unique class stories, I think you are forgetting about the class missions on Rishi where they did that. I know that is was a one off situation, and I don't expect them to do any more of that, but it would be really cool if they did.

[Icykill_]

I agree mostly with that statement but the judgement of what is positive or negative is not yours to make. It looks more like you try to censor certain negative things out and that cant be the idea of a usefull discourse. Some people might have critism on Keiths idea and for gods sake they need to post it. The statement "we end at the same spot in the future then with the new mageservers" is an absolute valid comment which must be discussed and looked at on all sides. If something on those arguments annoys you, Icey, because you have the feeling the thing does not move forward, you have to soldier through it or ignore it, sorry.

 

To the ideas:

What I would like to see is cross faction (pls read again cross- faction) to warzones, GSF, FPs, uprisings and operations. Maybe even guilds which of course leads to the question of allowing cross faction chat. If the TOFN community can maintain an ingame chat, why not make an official one from BWs side? With the story around the Alliance we have a story bound explanation for that, I think. For me it just makes no sense at all, that the 5 republic PvP players and the 11 imperial players have to wait till the numbers of the republic rise to 8 just because Odessen is not the next warzone. (Is it Odessen which is cross faction already?). Or the GSF pilots. With the Gods of the machine ops... this is just hilarious. Our tank decided against the norm currently to update his achievements so now when we spontanously want to go for it, we can only hope that he did not switch sides at this day. I find that practic questionable. Sure that idea might need some new voice overs on certain points but for heavens sake the ques could go faster especially on servers with a large gap between imperial and republic communities.

 

Also the most important thing in any MMORPG are the guilds. Our guild tools are horribly lacking I think. There is no way to check for guilds without relying on third hand ressources like forums or websites. In game (especially on bigger servers) guild spam takes so much room from general chat, that a lot of LFG is simply overseen. Guild advertisements are long, they mostly take a normal guild window, so when somebody asks for a LFG on large servers, boom boom guild advertisement, case closed. If the recruiters then go into a war with spamming right behind the other (as if that ever would help a lot) it turns out close to impossible to get a group. EQ2 had an guild introduction page where people could look for guilds and the GM of said guild or officers from it where listed next to what the guild focussed on. Why is no such system implemented allowing recruiter and recruit coming together a lot faster, with lesser annoyance and without hopping through the /who command if you are newer and want to add an alt to the guild?

 

You are right about how it sounds and I think I may not have worded it incorrectly. Of course if there is something Keith says and they disagree, they should say so. I often voice concerns to Keith if I disagree.

By positive I mean not bickering with each other over the same point, especially on things they maybe reading into an interpretation and not something Keith actually said. "Constructive" conversation is positive even if it's criticism.

 

Cross faction is one of those great ideas that's been asked for over the years. It should have happened back when they went down the Alliance story path. Things like pvp could have used it even sooner.

What's worse then waiting for WZs that should pop you into an Odessen when there aren't enough players on both factions, is when you have 8 IMPs and 4 Reps and it doesn't put you into arena matches till there are enough players.

I've been on the fleet where there has been 13 IMPs in a queue for an hour and instead of putting us into arena matches, it waits till there are enough for a 16man WZ. The whole system is setup wrong and needs to be adjusted to take into account the amount of people queued vs what the queue says should be next in the rotation.

 

Guild sizes also need to be bigger because lots of people have alts and if you have just one of each advanced class in a guild that's 8 toons, if you have more it's even higher. That severely limits how many people can be in the guild or how many alts can be in the guild.

Edited June 27, 2017 by Icykill_