Server Merge Discussion Thread

[TUXs]

I shouldn't have to pay additional money on top of my sub to have worse ping. Its not fair to East coast players to have no option for steady ranked queues on the East coast.

I could not agree more with you. If I returned to LOTRO and found a dead server, but was told I could move my toons for additional money, I'd LOL, logout and uninstall the game forever.

 

Asking players to pay more money to play a game that appears to be dead as hell, is unacceptable, unreasonable and absolutely illogical. Unless you're intentionally trying to kill this game, that is the stupidest thing I can think of.

 

(none of that last part is directed at you kvandertulip...obviously)

[TUXs]

2. It is actually free, subs receive 500 cartel coins a month free of charge not included in your sub.

Those 500 coins are incentive to sub, they are not "free" - your sub is a package deal ever since this game went F2P. They are a part of the subscription and should not be the primary means of moving characters off of dead servers.

What if Bioware were to offer free character transfers for a period of time. Would that answer your cost question?

Why "for a period of time"? Why charge at all? Allow subs to transfer for free any time they like, or limit it to once a month if you'd like. More freedom is ALWAYS better.

[DWho]

Those 500 coins are incentive to sub, they are not "free" - your sub is a package deal ever since this game went F2P. They are a part of the subscription and should not be the primary means of moving characters off of dead servers.

 

Why "for a period of time"? Why charge at all? Allow subs to transfer for free any time they like, or limit it to once a month if you'd like. More freedom is ALWAYS better.

 

The only concern I would have for unlimited free transfers would be controlling credit spammers. I don't think that is an insurmountably problem though. Limiting transfers to once a month could be a solution to credit spamming. Giving more people the ability to move characters to the servers they want to play on is a better solution.

[EzioMessi]

What if Bioware were to offer free character transfers for a period of time. Would that answer your cost question? As far as ping goes, some are saying it makes a difference others don't. That does argue against mega servers which some people are pushing. Ping is a reasonable concern but you would be exchanging ping for better pop times. Does the ping increase make the game unplayable? (I don't know so I am asking the question).

 

About ping making the game unplayable, yes it absolutely can.

 

I'd wager that around 150-250 ms is the ping after which you just can't set foot in Ranked as a melee class. If someone chooses to focus you, that 150-250 ms delay will be the death of you. I'm guessing it's a little bit higher for Unranked and for ranged classes; I've personally played with 200 ms ping and I can tell you for sure, anything higher would make me just quit the game entirely.

 

Since PvE is a lot less reactionary than PvP (you can memorize fights and compensate for lag while preparing for the triggers) I am usually fine with Operations and Flashpoints up till 400-500 ms for SM/HM (no idea if it is different for NiM).

 

For solo content (aside from Veteran/Master KotFE/ET and Eternal Championship), you can honestly just play with any ping. The game makes it really hard to screw up (aside from certain fights like Vaylin and Arcann) and the companions can solo most of the enemies in the game, and the god droid solos everything in solo flashpoints. However even though theoretically you can play the solo content at very high pings, there's some research that shows that the interface and experience feels "intangible" once you get to pings near or above 1 second. Your experience easily starts to drift to other activities so you eventually just won't feel like playing, even if it is technically possible to do so.

 

So yeah, ping can be gamebreaking for everyone. It's different amounts of ping for different people and different content, but there's a limit after which it'll put everyone off.

[AscendingSky]

The only concern I would have for unlimited free transfers would be controlling credit spammers. I don't think that is an insurmountably problem though. Limiting transfers to once a month could be a solution to credit spamming. Giving more people the ability to move characters to the servers they want to play on is a better solution.

 

I can get your concern. I think if EAWare were going to offer free transfers, they definitely shouldn't make it unlimited because of credit sellers and exploiters. They could instead do something like grant each character existing at X date at Y level or above ONE free transfer. This could be to any server, but ideally you wouldn't be able to transfer your toon to one of the old PvP servers (since the point of all this is to try to help people on dead servers move to better ones). That way, even people with 100+ characters spread out over multiple servers could move every toon of theirs for free if they wanted to, without leaving the floodgates open for RMT types to go nuts hopping servers back and forth repeatedly.

 

I think offering this option to everyone, while also locking off the old PvP servers from anyone with new accounts making characters on them, would help alleviate the population issues. However, the people on the old PvP servers still have character and guild assets they no doubt don't want to lose as well, so we still need EAWare to address the proper transfer of those as well if we wanted to try to solve the population issues/consolidate servers with free transfers instead of merges.

Edited June 15, 2017 by AscendingSky

[TyonYlle]

Those 500 coins are incentive to sub, they are not "free" - your sub is a package deal ever since this game went F2P. They are a part of the subscription and should not be the primary means of moving characters off of dead servers.

 

Of course not, but if people are so desperate for a merger, that they don't care whether other people lose their guild, their millions of credits and assets, then shouldn't that "incentive to sub" be used to move to a better server, or should it be fine that people will lose their stuff?

[TUXs]

Of course not, but if people are so desperate for a merger, that they don't care whether other people lose their guild, their millions of credits and assets, then shouldn't that "incentive to sub" be used to move to a better server, or should it be fine that people will lose their stuff?

Apples and oranges. I firmly believe Bioware needs to address guild assets, with or without a merger - it's a BIG issue imo...but...people are far harder to replace than "things" are.

 

Guild assets should not be a reason a dead server is kept open, and if you're clinging to your dead server just because you don't want to lose "stuff", it's foolish. If anything, players with assets on dead servers should be advocating for mergers because that seems like the only way in hell they'll ever have some claim to their previously collected crap.

[kvandertulip]

What if Bioware were to offer free character transfers for a period of time. Would that answer your cost question?

 

It would be an improvement in the sense that it would counter the perception that Bioware is trying to profit from population issues that it refuses to attempt to fix.

 

Does the ping increase make the game unplayable?

 

For me, it does. Combined with the current broken pvp gearing system, its game breaking. Low cost transfers are not a good answer to population problems, and Bioware has said as much in one of the live streams.

[kvandertulip]

See it goes both ways not just one.

 

Yes, that is the point I was trying to make. There isn't one side to this debate, and the dogmatic view that there is no room for compromise is not ok.

[Icykill_]

I could not agree more with you. If I returned to LOTRO and found a dead server, but was told I could move my toons for additional money, I'd LOL, logout and uninstall the game forever.

 

Asking players to pay more money to play a game that appears to be dead as hell, is unacceptable, unreasonable and absolutely illogical. Unless you're intentionally trying to kill this game, that is the stupidest thing I can think of.

 

(none of that last part is directed at you kvandertulip...obviously)

 

It's so completely logical and I can't understand why they haven't worked this out already.. it's doing the game more harm each passing day.

[serenitty]

I have several characters across several servers, I don't want them all on one server where I may lose many due to limited character slots. I also like to sometimes play on a quiet server where I don't have to fight for every quest objective. Having an entire regional population on one server isn't much fun to me. I unsubbed for months after the initial server culling just before f2p came out because the server was just too full and it would take forever just to complete one quest.

[Icykill_]

Yes, that is the point I was trying to make. There isn't one side to this debate, and the dogmatic view that there is no room for compromise is not ok.

 

That's what I've been saying for 6 months since this discussion popped up in the forums in January.

Every side has an interest in a merge happening or not happening. Neither side is 100% right or wrong.

Unfortunately in the situation we find the game in at the moment, there will need to be compromises made. I don't know what they will be, but there will be some.

There have been many ideas that have been put to Bioware to start improving the population issue that didn't only include mergers. Once again these started way back in January and could have easily been implemented to help. But they've been ignored and now we are past the tipping point that I don't think any of them would do much to fix the issue.

The game has been bleeding players since 5.0 was released, its slowed, but only because those left are the die hard players who care about the game. They are now spread out thinly across a multitude of servers and even they are leaving because you can only hang around for so long waiting for the Bio guys to turn the ship back on course.

As much as I don't want to have wholesale mergers, it's getting to the point that mergers will be the only thing that keeps enough of the community together so that all content can be played. I'd even go as far as saying they will probably end up making one server for the US 😢. Why? Because this situation is only getting worse, nothing anyone has reasonably suggested (out side of mergers) has been tried. They've been silent on the topic since last November until Eric remade this thread after all of the merge threads were removed. By the time any physical action is taken, it will be the end of the year again. A whole 12 months since this issue was acknowledged by Bioware as being a concern.

I don't want one server for the US as it will probably mean I'll have to stop playing because of higher Ping. I also wish the population issue wasnt so bad that mergers maybe the only solution, even if it is a bad one.

The longer this situation drags out, the higher the possibility of one server for the US or the game just ends up being shut down.

What we need is action from Bioware. Starting another thread that just festers over this topic isn't helpful. They know there is an issue. They know all the pros, cons and concerns from both sides of the community. They know how we all feel because we've told them over and over. They "should" have read all the ideas that they've asked for by now as we've been posting them since January. This thread is basically done and everyone has given them all the ideas we can think of and expressed our opions.

It's now up to Keith and the team to action it. I would go so far as to say this should be their number one priority if they expect the game to keep enough players for another 12 months. If not number one, then it should be in the top 3.

 

Keith, Eric, time is running out to fix this issue and this thread has turned player against player. I'd suggest closing the thread and start a Bio to Player discussion on population issues and not player vs player discussions that have run their course and are sowing hatred.

Edited June 15, 2017 by Icykill_

[Icykill_]

What if Bioware were to offer free character transfers for a period of time. Would that answer your cost question? As far as ping goes, some are saying it makes a difference others don't. That does argue against mega servers which some people are pushing. Ping is a reasonable concern but you would be exchanging ping for better pop times. Does the ping increase make the game unplayable? (I don't know so I am asking the question).

 

It does for me. 220ms west coast and 280ms east coast on a good day is already high. Playing pvp on the east coast is just for laughs because half your stuff doesn't work 50% of the time. In every match Ping should get the MVP for the most kills on me.

The west coast is just playable and you only miss about 1/4 of the time. Ranked is basically impossible if I play anyone who is based in the US.

All of that is relying on those pings being stable, but they never are. One minute I can be at 220ms and the next it's 350ms or higher. That can happen 3-10 times per match. When it gets really bad I just have to log off,

Ping matters for people who already have high lag.

If you live in the US and get an extra 50ms Ping added to your current lag and if they made one server it wouldn't be a game breaker for US players. You can play competitive pvp up to about 180ms and anything below that should be fine. Even adding an extra 50ms wouldn't take most US players over 100ms. But it can be a game breaker for overseas players.

It comes down to wether Bio deems it better to keep the overseas players or consolidate and risk losing them. Saving money by closing all the servers and having one, even though they lose a bunch of players, it might be more economically viable for the accountants who run EAware.

They've done it before when they closed the APAC servers and merged us with the west coast. All people wanted was one mega server for the APAC region because both the pvp and Rp servers were "dying" (and they each would have had as many as Harbinger has now). The pve server, dalbora had a massive population and was active 24/7. When they merged us all to the west coast, most APAC players stop playing because of the lag.

 

So the answer is yes, Ping matters if you play out side of the US (not EU). The question is, "does it matter enough for Bio to care"

Edited June 16, 2017 by Icykill_

[fushnchips]

It does for me. 220ms west coast and 280ms east coast on a good day is already high. Playing pvp on the east coast is just for laughs because half your stuff doesn't work 50% of the time. In every match Ping should get the MVP for the most kills on me.

The west coast is just playable and you only miss about 1/4 of the time. Ranked is basically impossible if I play anyone who is based in the US.

All of that is relying on those pings being stable, but they never are. One minute I can be at 220ms and the next it's 350ms or higher. That can happen 3-10 times per match. When it gets really bad I just have to log off,

Ping matters for people who already have high lag.

If you live in the US and get an extra 50ms Ping added to your current lag if they made one server it wouldn't be a game breaker. You can play competitive pvp up to about 180ms and anything below that should be fine. Even adding an extra 50ms wouldn't take most US players over 100ms. But it can be a game breaker for overseas players.

It comes down to wether Bio deems it better to keep the overseas players or consolidate and risk losing them. Saving money by closing all the servers and having one, even though they lose a bunch of players, might be more economically viable for the accountants who run EAware. Theyve done it before and its what they did when they closed the APAC servers and merged us with the west coast. All people wanted was one mega server for the APAC region because both the pvp and Rp servers were "dying" (and they each would have had as many as Harbinger has now). The pve server, dalbora had a massive population and was active 24/7. When they merged us all to the west coast, most APAC players stop playing because of the lag.

 

So the answer is yes, Ping matters if you play out side of the US (not EU). The question is, "does it matter enough for Bio to care"

 

you can do anything without issues at 300ms people are just using the ping as an excuse I used to raid on the EU servers from NZ so I know the pain of pings and it didn't effect my skill it comes down to the player if you know how to play the class you are fine if you don't you start to make little excuses like ohh I have a bad ping i'm over 200ms.

[Icykill_]

you can do anything without issues at 300ms people are just using the ping as an excuse I used to raid on the EU servers from NZ so I know the pain of pings and it didn't effect my skill it comes down to the player if you know how to play the class you are fine if you don't you start to make little excuses like ohh I have a bad ping i'm over 200ms.

 

You can't do "anything", you can do a lot of things, but not everything. I know you raid, but you don't play competitive pvp, so please don't keep saying Ping doesn't matter.

[fushnchips]

You can't do "anything", you can do a lot of things, but not everything. I know you raid, but you don't play competitive pvp, so please don't keep saying Ping doesn't matter.

 

You can PvP I have done it, Do you do ranked because please don't say you only do lowbie pvp the only PvP that matters is ranked if people complain about ping everything is isn't competitive.

[NomadFifteen]

OK, time for my two cents again.

 

Looking this over, the main reason to merge is to increase the pops for PvP and PUGs. The reasons against are loss of game assents (time, in game currency, and RL currency) and play styles being stepped on by those who do not respect others styles as relevant.

 

If a merge occurs, we are looking at the following scenarios.

1. If they go to single servers for each area (EC/WC/Europe), and BW cannot guarantee game assets and game play styles, we lose those paying players.

2. If a merge is forced, why would someone who doesn't PvP or PUG suddenly start? Just because you force someone onto a new server you cannot force them to change their play style. I for one hate PvP in this game (I play pure PvP games for my fix: WoT, WoWs, Crossout) and moving me to a more populated server would not make me play it.

 

How does forcing a merge on players who don't want it help the game by costing it players?

 

If we remain as is, we are looking at:

1. Declining pop as people on low pop servers who won't move instead quit.

2. New players who start on a low pop server who are looking for the MMO experience will think the game is dead and not stay.

 

How does representing the game as dead help bring in new players or retain current/returning players?

 

If we have mergers, we are looking at higher pop servers at the expense of paying customers. Will the benefit of a merger outweigh the loss of revenue from the RP servers, guilds that loose a lot of assets, and the effects on those with a ton a characters having to choose what do with those characters and decide to quit?

 

Will ignoring the situation solve the issue of the game being in decline due a players leaving the game due to low population on the servers they are on? (Issues due to everything since 4.0 are a different topic for player loss.)

 

The player base is extremely polarized on this issue, and right now unless some major money is dropped into the game to work thru the issues, no one will be happy with what ever is decided by management. I do not pretend to know the numbers, but the final decision will depend upon what makes BW the most revenue, not what is best for the player base. Things have been marginally better in working with the player base, but money rules all.

[Icykill_]

You can PvP I have done it, Do you do ranked because please don't say you only do lowbie pvp the only PvP that matters is ranked if people complain about ping everything is isn't competitive.

 

Sorry but you are wrong. I don't say this often to people because everyone has an opinion, but by your own admission in other threads, you aren't a pvper, you are an OPs players. If you were a serious pvper you would understand why Ping is important. Ranked might be a mess, but I can't even compete in it because I'm dead before anything activates or more importantly doesn't activate.

Please stop with this "Ping isnt an issue argument" just because it doesn't affect you. I'm not trashing OPs, decorations, guilds, ships, strongholds or anything else just because it's not important to me. I have opinions about those things that disagree with other people and of parts of the game that I don't play, but I dont go around disparaging them or even mentioning it because I know it's important to other people to play the game the way they want. Just because it's not important to you, doesn't mean it should be ignored or trashed.

So please, I ask you kindly, stop saying Ping isn't important when it is to myself and others. It isn't helping the conversation and it isn't getting Bioware to see it has relevance to parts of the community.

[fushnchips]

Sorry but you are wrong. I don't say this often to people because everyone has an opinion, but by your own admission in other threads, you aren't a pvper, you are an OPs players. If you were a serious pvper you would understand why Ping is important. Ranked might be a mess, but I can't even compete in it because I'm dead before anything activates or more importantly doesn't activate.

Please stop with this "Ping isnt an issue argument" just because it doesn't affect you. I'm not trashing OPs, decorations, guilds, ships, strongholds or anything else just because it's not important to me. I have opinions about those things that disagree with other people and of parts of the game that I don't play, but I dont go around disparaging them or even mentioning it because I know it's important to other people to play the game the way they want. Just because it's not important to you, doesn't mean it should be ignored or trashed.

So please, I ask you kindly, stop saying Ping isn't important when it is to myself and others. It isn't helping the conversation and it isn't getting Bioware to see it has relevance to parts of the community.

 

I guess my top tier pvp rewards were from the cartel market then and my ping was so high i couldn't compete ohh hang on but I did with a high ping and still got top tier so please stop using the ping as an excuse.

[Otaktey]

I have several characters across several servers, I don't want them all on one server where I may lose many due to limited character slots. I also like to sometimes play on a quiet server where I don't have to fight for every quest objective. Having an entire regional population on one server isn't much fun to me. I unsubbed for months after the initial server culling just before f2p came out because the server was just too full and it would take forever just to complete one quest.

 

With a cross server group queue system, it would solve the low population problems with group content and you would also be able to enjoy your "quiet time questing"

[Otaktey]

Sorry but you are wrong. I don't say this often to people because everyone has an opinion, but by your own admission in other threads, you aren't a pvper, you are an OPs players. If you were a serious pvper you would understand why Ping is important. Ranked might be a mess, but I can't even compete in it because I'm dead before anything activates or more importantly doesn't activate.

Please stop with this "Ping isnt an issue argument" just because it doesn't affect you. I'm not trashing OPs, decorations, guilds, ships, strongholds or anything else just because it's not important to me. I have opinions about those things that disagree with other people and of parts of the game that I don't play, but I dont go around disparaging them or even mentioning it because I know it's important to other people to play the game the way they want. Just because it's not important to you, doesn't mean it should be ignored or trashed.

So please, I ask you kindly, stop saying Ping isn't important when it is to myself and others. It isn't helping the conversation and it isn't getting Bioware to see it has relevance to parts of the community.

 

Ping is only an issue in PVP when one player has a higher ping than others. Really is boils down to frame rate more than ping. If your frame rates are low, you don't see the action to respond before others. The response from you is based on your upload speed with your internet provider which is usually pretty even except for those that have gigabit internet service. Most cable connections max out at 5mbs upload, where gigabit hits around 600mbs. If they did a cross server queue, they could limit the frame rate to help even out the player's FPS. We used to do that in the competition COD4 servers back in the day. The max FPS was set at 125fps so the guy with the rockin' computer doesn't get an advantage over other players.

[Icykill_]

Ping is only an issue in PVP when one player has a higher ping than others. Really is boils down to frame rate more than ping. If your frame rates are low, you don't see the action to respond before others. The response from you is based on your upload speed with your internet provider which is usually pretty even except for those that have gigabit internet service. Most cable connections max out at 5mbs upload, where gigabit hits around 600mbs. If they did a cross server queue, they could limit the frame rate to help even out the player's FPS. We used to do that in the competition COD4 servers back in the day. The max FPS was set at 125fps so the guy with the rockin' computer doesn't get an advantage over other players.

 

Yes, you are right, Ping is an issue in pvp, this is what I'm saying. Frame rate is only an issue if you have a crap pc. My frame rate is just fine and is between 160-200fps..

If you live in the US you probably don't even get Ping higher than 80ms at its worst. But if you live outside the US you get high Ping and that is what I'm talking about. Just adding 20-50ms to our normal Ping levels make a huge difference in pvp. I'm sure if you are in the US you probably wouldn't even notice it.

The issue is if they merge servers and move server locations or make a mega server, then Ping will most likely go up and anyone overseas will certainly feel the effect, especially pvpers, which is all I play.

[Icykill_]

I guess my top tier pvp rewards were from the cartel market then and my ping was so high i couldn't compete ohh hang on but I did with a high ping and still got top tier so please stop using the ping as an excuse.

 

Screen shots or it didn't happen

[Foambreaker]

What if Bioware were to offer free character transfers for a period of time. Would that answer your cost question? As far as ping goes, some are saying it makes a difference others don't. That does argue against mega servers which some people are pushing. Ping is a reasonable concern but you would be exchanging ping for better pop times. Does the ping increase make the game unplayable? (I don't know so I am asking the question).

 

A few things to consider about ping:

If they group servers by coast, either via merge or xserver, the ping would in theory be the same because they would probably have the servers in the same location. Because of instancing merge would not necessarily increase ping due to load.

 

Most of ping is not related to the servers, it is each persons own ISP. People with high end cable can run pings coast to coast in the 20s and some claim lower. People with poor connections are used to playing in the mid 200s.

 

If they decide to merge or xserver both coasts then it is somewhat important that they find some central location.

 

There is a lot of room in the ping discussion to mislead, for example comparing merging servers by coast to xserver queues that cover the whole country, apples and oranges.

[Andryah]

Ping is only an issue in PVP when one player has a higher ping than others.

 

Ummm.... a player in California will have a ping of less then 35ms to Harbinger. A player on The East Coast will have a ping of ~95ms to Harbinger. And a Player in Asia will have a ping close to 200ms.

 

35 vs 95 is not much of an issue given human response times.... but 35 vs 200 WILL in fact give the 35ms player a clear advantage in competitive PvP. The high ping player must really be on their game 100% while the 35ms player can pretty much "mail it in" while slogging down Cheetos and Moutain Dew. It matters.

 

Frame rates.. are more about distraction caused delays.... and can have weight in the total equation.... but it is NOT the key issue.

 

That said.... this MMO is not heavily focused on PvP.. so the impact is relatively less then say for a very competitive Arena style online PvP game where it's all PvP all the time. And in such competitive PvP environments, frame rate does not apply as these are semi-pro PvP venues so almost everyone shows up with their "A Game" in terms of hardware to handle performance challenges like frame rates.

 

At the end of the day... setting aside periodic issues in performance on some hops on some routes (which the studio has no control over) things like optimal ping rates are really just physics in real life as it takes X time for the electrons to make a round trip between points Y and Z. With players all around the world, there is no remedy for this in terms of server location. Sure.. Aussies would have much better performance with localized servers, but that was tried and failed already... and will not be tried again.

Edited June 16, 2017 by Andryah