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Engi snipers > Nerf pls.


Alex_York

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The 30% less AoE damage is 9 times out of 10 a waste.

 

Like said above, these engi sniper's are most effective in ranked arena's and taking that utility just for ranked arena's would be silly. There is no where near enough AoE damage in a ranked arena to justify that utility.

Edited by Marstrike
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Good to see some quite informative posts from long time sniper players.

 

One thing i want to clear up though, you guy's aren't claiming the AoE spam ISNT OP though right?

 

Playing engineer well might take skill but playing it effectively in this meta...takes none. All you need to do to be "effective" on ANY map is spam that AoE.

 

If I am wrong could you explain why you were one of the "few" people to main Engineering yet now i see them everywhere, every single sniper is engineer. If we're gonna play games then what's changed?

 

Let's not be silly no one in their right mind does not think that skill is ridiculous...

Well for one thing threads like these are going to help boost their profile that's for sure. Would definitely be interesting to see BW's stats on how many people have been playing the spec since this insane thread popped up.

 

As for why, it's quite simple. 3.0 was probably the worst engineering has ever been. Hardly anyone was playing the spec in favour of marksman. Is was literally insane, even virulence took a nose dive. On our server I can name 2...possibly 3 other veteran snipers that would give it a go now and then.

 

Look at the defences we had back then compared to now, and you'll get your answer. I know full well just how annoying the spec can be, all in good bants of course, but I've focussed some friends on the other side a couple of times in every era, we all have fun with our friends when we come up against them. Engineering is probably, outside of stealth of course, the most objective spec in the game and always has been. Nothing that's been said here is anything new, it just reeks of people who have suddenly found themselves coming up against a spec they didn't used to before.

 

You know what's really funny? Even when we were at our worst, 3.0, people would tell me sometimes that they didn't know how to play against me....because the spec was so rare they didn't know how to counter it.

 

My point still stands however. Slapping a cooldown on plasma probe or reducing the slow is not the solution, and it never will be.

 

ps Thaladin makes a good point as well. The make up of the team a sniper finds him/herself in and the make up of the team he/she faces, is incredibly important. Even without a shot being fired on either side that alone will dictate what kind of game you can expect.

 

Don't just look at what individual classes/specs are doing but the bigger picture, there's probably more going on than what some would like to admit.

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People who say i'm bad and think engi snipers are ok are out of touch with reality. We had a guild tournament 1v1, guess who finalist were? Snipers. They weren't even in engi spec class is so good, and then they had 1v1 with each other, in each spec, and if it was a tie they could use any spec they wanted, and ofc they used engi at the end. Sniper overall is strongest class in game, and engi is strongest spec. I bet 90% of you did never pvp a decent sniper, because they would know it's impossible to 1v1 them and win. You can call me bad, you can deny snipers are op, but it's a fact.
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People who say i'm bad and think engi snipers are ok are out of touch with reality. We had a guild tournament 1v1, guess who finalist were? Snipers. They weren't even in engi spec class is so good, and then they had 1v1 with each other, in each spec, and if it was a tie they could use any spec they wanted, and ofc they used engi at the end. Sniper overall is strongest class in game, and engi is strongest spec. I bet 90% of you did never pvp a decent sniper, because they would know it's impossible to 1v1 them and win. You can call me bad, you can deny snipers are op, but it's a fact.

 

Alex what guild are you talking about?

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Well for one thing threads like these are going to help boost their profile that's for sure. Would definitely be interesting to see BW's stats on how many people have been playing the spec since this insane thread popped up.

 

As for why, it's quite simple. 3.0 was probably the worst engineering has ever been. Hardly anyone was playing the spec in favour of marksman. Is was literally insane, even virulence took a nose dive. On our server I can name 2...possibly 3 other veteran snipers that would give it a go now and then.

 

Look at the defences we had back then compared to now, and you'll get your answer. I know full well just how annoying the spec can be, all in good bants of course, but I've focussed some friends on the other side a couple of times in every era, we all have fun with our friends when we come up against them. Engineering is probably, outside of stealth of course, the most objective spec in the game and always has been. Nothing that's been said here is anything new, it just reeks of people who have suddenly found themselves coming up against a spec they didn't used to before.

 

You know what's really funny? Even when we were at our worst, 3.0, people would tell me sometimes that they didn't know how to play against me....because the spec was so rare they didn't know how to counter it.

 

My point still stands however. Slapping a cooldown on plasma probe or reducing the slow is not the solution, and it never will be.

 

ps Thaladin makes a good point as well. The make up of the team a sniper finds him/herself in and the make up of the team he/she faces, is incredibly important. Even without a shot being fired on either side that alone will dictate what kind of game you can expect.

 

Don't just look at what individual classes/specs are doing but the bigger picture, there's probably more going on than what some would like to admit.

 

Well put 😊

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People who say i'm bad and think engi snipers are ok are out of touch with reality. We had a guild tournament 1v1, guess who finalist were? Snipers. They weren't even in engi spec class is so good, and then they had 1v1 with each other, in each spec, and if it was a tie they could use any spec they wanted, and ofc they used engi at the end. Sniper overall is strongest class in game, and engi is strongest spec. I bet 90% of you did never pvp a decent sniper, because they would know it's impossible to 1v1 them and win. You can call me bad, you can deny snipers are op, but it's a fact.

 

The best and about any counter to a gunslinger(sniper) is another gunslinger. Their abilty to break them out of cover and hunker down is huge. In PVP one of my two mains is a gunslinger and just by breaking up formations of snipers and forcing them out of cover I can give my team a chance. Face a team last night with 3 sniper, we only had me. But all it took was me forcing them out of cover to turn the battle. The guardians/sentinels/shadows would descend on them every time I did it. I got killed by those three over and over but all I needed to do was break their cover and my team got the win. Was nice the melee appricated my efforts in chat and even in the MVP voting.....think I had like barely 1 million damage but I got 5 MVP votes.

 

There needs to be other counters to gunslingers. Maybe something vangards and/or guardians get to break a person from cover. It would add value to two of the weaker PvP classes nicely.

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There is, something that was taken out of the game for the very purpose of it being far too effective against snipers. Yet they brought it back in 5.0

 

the only hard counter to an entrenched sniper is diversion, or massively overruning his position while he's netted and cannot simply "roll" to a new cover, and be fast on the stun when he attempts to move. Which required more than one person usually.

 

If you are attempting being vague because "you don't want to disclose a super secret strategy", I call BS on that. There is certainly more than one tactic to approach a sniper, but only one really hard counter to their entrench. Feel free to correct me, but I doubt you can.

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Well for one thing threads like these are going to help boost their profile that's for sure. Would definitely be interesting to see BW's stats on how many people have been playing the spec since this insane thread popped up.

 

As for why, it's quite simple. 3.0 was probably the worst engineering has ever been. Hardly anyone was playing the spec in favour of marksman. Is was literally insane, even virulence took a nose dive. On our server I can name 2...possibly 3 other veteran snipers that would give it a go now and then.

 

Look at the defences we had back then compared to now, and you'll get your answer. I know full well just how annoying the spec can be, all in good bants of course, but I've focussed some friends on the other side a couple of times in every era, we all have fun with our friends when we come up against them. Engineering is probably, outside of stealth of course, the most objective spec in the game and always has been. Nothing that's been said here is anything new, it just reeks of people who have suddenly found themselves coming up against a spec they didn't used to before.

 

You know what's really funny? Even when we were at our worst, 3.0, people would tell me sometimes that they didn't know how to play against me....because the spec was so rare they didn't know how to counter it.

 

My point still stands however. Slapping a cooldown on plasma probe or reducing the slow is not the solution, and it never will be.

 

ps Thaladin makes a good point as well. The make up of the team a sniper finds him/herself in and the make up of the team he/she faces, is incredibly important. Even without a shot being fired on either side that alone will dictate what kind of game you can expect.

 

Don't just look at what individual classes/specs are doing but the bigger picture, there's probably more going on than what some would like to admit.

 

There is not one shred of info you presented supporting not nerfin probe just historical mambo jumbo that amounts to nothing and means nothing.

 

The next time there is will be class balance probe will be nerfed. Mark my words.

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The best and about any counter to a gunslinger(sniper) is another gunslinger. Their abilty to break them out of cover and hunker down is huge. In PVP one of my two mains is a gunslinger and just by breaking up formations of snipers and forcing them out of cover I can give my team a chance. Face a team last night with 3 sniper, we only had me. But all it took was me forcing them out of cover to turn the battle. The guardians/sentinels/shadows would descend on them every time I did it. I got killed by those three over and over but all I needed to do was break their cover and my team got the win. Was nice the melee appricated my efforts in chat and even in the MVP voting.....think I had like barely 1 million damage but I got 5 MVP votes.

 

There needs to be other counters to gunslingers. Maybe something vangards and/or guardians get to break a person from cover. It would add value to two of the weaker PvP classes nicely.

 

One would think that when both teams have snipers they should counter themselfs at least making the enemy ones leave cover like you did. Sadly, what you did is something that probably 90% (*) of the snipers does not do at all. Sometimes it looks like they have some kind of arrangement to not bother each other. Like they think: "If i remove that one from cover, then he/she will remove me from cover.......better not do it".

 

(*) This number is not a fact, it was pull out of thin air to be used as an expresion.

Edited by Balameb
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One would think that when both teams have snipers they should counter themselfs at least making the enemy ones leave cover like you did. Sadly, what you did is something that probably 90% (*) of the snipers does not do at all. Sometimes it looks like they have some kind of arrangement to not bother each other. Like they think: "If i remove that one from cover, then he/she will remove me from cover.......better not do it".

 

(*) This number is not a fact, it was pull out of thin air to be used as an expresion.

 

90% of the snipers aint that much trouble since the skill to make one work correctly is much higher than a merc. They can be bothersome with PP spam, but they die easily enough.

 

The issue is the 10% that remain :p and I do believe class need to be balanced so that when played at peak they are balanced with each others, not with "how the average player plays them".

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There is not one shred of info you presented supporting not nerfin probe just historical mambo jumbo that amounts to nothing and means nothing.

 

The next time there is will be class balance probe will be nerfed. Mark my words.

 

Really, then perhaps you need to read further.

 

Not only have I suggested three nerfs for both plasma probe and the sniper in general, which incidentally will have much more effect without ruining the spec, (I fully expect you to take that the wrong way, veteran engineering snipers will know precisely what I mean), but I've also pointed out that most of what people are complaining about is nothing new.

 

When someone asks a question regarding why engineering is much more prevalent than it used to be, the only way to answer is to dabble in that 'historical mumbo jumbo' as you put it.

 

I know much better than most in this thread as to how strong engineering can be, I played the spec for long enough. It's hilarious to see jugs and guardians complaining (granted that's probably not the only class that's having problems), that they are having problems against engineering when they have ALWAYS had problems against engineering.

 

Engineering got absolutely gutted in 3.0 and it's had nothing since the 2.0 days, no new skills. EMP discharge (the damage version they introduced back in 3.0) simply replaced ambush we lost access to, the resets that appeared in 4.0 were essentially what we already had since 1.0 but taken away from us in 3.0.

 

Mercs aren't the only ones that have suffered for a very long time.

 

Perhaps you should sit back and think a while, it might provide you with some benefits...

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Really, then perhaps you need to read further.

 

Not only have I suggested three nerfs for both plasma probe and the sniper in general, which incidentally will have much more effect without ruining the spec, (I fully expect you to take that the wrong way, veteran engineering snipers will know precisely what I mean), but I've also pointed out that most of what people are complaining about is nothing new.

 

When someone asks a question regarding why engineering is much more prevalent than it used to be, the only way to answer is to dabble in that 'historical mumbo jumbo' as you put it.

 

I know much better than most in this thread as to how strong engineering can be, I played the spec for long enough. It's hilarious to see jugs and guardians complaining (granted that's probably not the only class that's having problems), that they are having problems against engineering when they have ALWAYS had problems against engineering.

 

Engineering got absolutely gutted in 3.0 and it's had nothing since the 2.0 days, no new skills. EMP discharge (the damage version they introduced back in 3.0) simply replaced ambush we lost access to, the resets that appeared in 4.0 were essentially what we already had since 1.0 but taken away from us in 3.0.

 

Mercs aren't the only ones that have suffered for a very long time.

 

Perhaps you should sit back and think a while, it might provide you with some benefits...

 

Regardless of overall changes to sniper, the probe slow needs to be reduced significantly. No skill should have an 8 meter radius with constant 70% slow on demand. This is major game breaking. And this class/spec suffered and now needs to be on top, makes no sense, and has nothing to do with how BW does class balance, when they do it.

 

I think the CD and the damage should not change, but it is guaranteed probe will get nerfed next time there is class balance.

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No skill should have an 8 meter radius with constant 70% slow on demand.

I agree!!!!!

 

So change the radius back to 5m...problem solved. There...now wasn't that easy?

 

Edit: Oh aye, and where did I say engineering needs to be on top?

Edited by BaineOs
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I agree!!!!!

 

So change the radius back to 5m...problem solved. There...now wasn't that easy?

 

Edit: Oh aye, and where did I say engineering needs to be on top?

 

No its not. And I would rather is stay 8 meter and damage stay the same and reduce the slow.

 

We need AOE damage. We do not want over the top slows.

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No its not. And I would rather is stay 8 meter and damage stay the same and reduce the slow.

 

We need AOE damage. We do not want over the top slows.

Then you are admitting you don't know how to play against an engineering sniper, it's the only logical conclusion.

 

I mean hey....sure if you want to buff the superior objective gameplay abilities an engineering sniper already has....then go for it. I just hope you don't come up against any veteran engineering snipers because otherwise you are not capping anytime soon. That slow is not your only problem, you see with 8m it makes capping in civil war, novare and voidstar much harder. That 8m is a much bigger buff than you realise.

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Then you are admitting you don't know how to play against an engineering sniper, it's the only logical conclusion.

 

I mean hey....sure if you want to buff the superior objective gameplay abilities an engineering sniper already has....then go for it. I just hope you don't come up against any veteran engineering snipers because otherwise you are not capping anytime soon. That slow is not your only problem, you see with 8m it makes capping in civil war, novare and voidstar much harder. That 8m is a much bigger buff than you realise.

 

The AOE size and the radius are not correlated (at least directly). If the radius is 3 meters per say should the slow become 90%? No. A skill with no CD AOE slow should not have a 70% effect. Wither the AOE of the skill should be 8 or 5 that is a different question. The slow effect as it currently stands is a substantially bigger issue than the radius.

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The AOE size and the radius are not correlated (at least directly). If the radius is 3 meters per say should the slow become 90%? No. A skill with no CD AOE slow should not have a 70% effect. Wither the AOE of the skill should be 8 or 5 that is a different question. The slow effect as it currently stands is a substantially bigger issue than the radius.

 

But they are correlated. That's the point you're not getting. Engineering is the ONLY AOE spec that should be utilising it's AOE for single target purpose. In order for plasma probe to do it's damage, the target needs to be within the effect. Now this is done with the combined effect of the 2s stun (requiring IP and EMP discharge) and the slow.

 

Increase the radius and it takes longer to walk out, therefore the slow has to be reduced. But at the same time, you give an unbelievable objective buff to an already strong objective spec. You solve one problem but you completely fail to do anything about the second. Surely this thread is enough for you? Do you really want to have another insane thread due to no-one being able to cap because of plasma probe being to large an area?

 

Even if you slap a cooldown on PP, it's not going to solve that objective buff problem.

 

The 5m radius with 70% slow is good for the engineering snipers solo target abilities and balanced for the rest of the players on the opposite team.

 

You have tunnel vision here, you're not looking at the whole effects of plasma probe.

 

Even with a reduction in the slow, we're still going to have an 80% heal, we're still going to have the resets on virtually all our defensive skills. We're still going to have 2 purges to movement impairing effects (4 with the resets), and covered escape is still going root people even with full resolve (bet you didn't even know that one...).

 

The three changes that I've mentioned in another thread is the way this spec and class can be more balanced for everyone, without ruining it for those that enjoy the spec.

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One would think that when both teams have snipers they should counter themselfs at least making the enemy ones leave cover like you did. Sadly, what you did is something that probably 90% (*) of the snipers does not do at all. Sometimes it looks like they have some kind of arrangement to not bother each other. Like they think: "If i remove that one from cover, then he/she will remove me from cover.......better not do it".

 

(*) This number is not a fact, it was pull out of thin air to be used as an expresion.

 

Exactly right and is actually a L2P issue for lots of snipers. What better way to counter a sniper, than with another sniper who knows all the abilities and tactics.

I'm afraid it doesn't end there either. A lot of this QQ is a learn to play better or learn some new tactics issue. Learning tactics in this game seems to be beyond most people. If they can't face roll something or use a tactic they've been using for years, then they say something is OP before trying different things or work around tactics.

I don't ever see threads like " how do you counter xyz class" or "what tactics should I use on this class vs this class".

The first thing people do when they can't beat some class or are having an issue with it is to come here and call for nerfs or QQ about a class being OP.

We often see threads about rotations and gearing, but I can't ever remember seeing threads about tactics to counter or neutralise a class. That should be the first thing people should be asking before QQing or theory crafting solutions to nerfs, especially when they often don't even play the class.

The problem is people are lazy or either too proud to ask or others don't want to impart knowledge that may give them an advantage.

I'm seeing lots of good players in the game who have learned how to neutralise or kill snipers, so it's certainly possible if you are willing to learn. But if all people want to do is call for nerfs and shout OP, balance will be impossible in this game. Most QQ in nerf threads is sadly a L2P issue, even for some veteran players who aren't flexible in their thinking and willing to learn new tactics.

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But they are correlated. That's the point you're not getting. Engineering is the ONLY AOE spec that should be utilising it's AOE for single target purpose. In order for plasma probe to do it's damage, the target needs to be within the effect. Now this is done with the combined effect of the 2s stun (requiring IP and EMP discharge) and the slow.

 

Increase the radius and it takes longer to walk out, therefore the slow has to be reduced. But at the same time, you give an unbelievable objective buff to an already strong objective spec. You solve one problem but you completely fail to do anything about the second. Surely this thread is enough for you? Do you really want to have another insane thread due to no-one being able to cap because of plasma probe being to large an area?

 

Even if you slap a cooldown on PP, it's not going to solve that objective buff problem.

 

The 5m radius with 70% slow is good for the engineering snipers solo target abilities and balanced for the rest of the players on the opposite team.

 

You have tunnel vision here, you're not looking at the whole effects of plasma probe.

 

Even with a reduction in the slow, we're still going to have an 80% heal, we're still going to have the resets on virtually all our defensive skills. We're still going to have 2 purges to movement impairing effects (4 with the resets), and covered escape is still going root people even with full resolve (bet you didn't even know that one...).

 

The three changes that I've mentioned in another thread is the way this spec and class can be more balanced for everyone, without ruining it for those that enjoy the spec.

 

This is respectable I guess. It does settle the issue of roadblocking teams at chokepoints easily, altough I think voidstar caps are still going go be problematics.

 

Still, I the issue at hand here also concern the constant replacement of the probe on melee classes until they are totally out of movement impairing breaks, considering that being a sniper most likely their main gap closer will not be working to start with.

 

There is however a small delay when the probe drops before the snare takes hold, so any mobile class should, assuming they are already moving be nearly out of it by the time it snares, making it short enough. Perhaps also giving a few more mobility immunity baseline tools to some specs would also allow to alleviate the issue. While not perfect, that would at least settle the most glaring ridiculousness of the probe.

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This is respectable I guess. It does settle the issue of roadblocking teams at chokepoints easily, altough I think voidstar caps are still going go be problematics.

 

Still, I the issue at hand here also concern the constant replacement of the probe on melee classes until they are totally out of movement impairing breaks, considering that being a sniper most likely their main gap closer will not be working to start with.

 

There is however a small delay when the probe drops before the snare takes hold, so any mobile class should, assuming they are already moving be nearly out of it by the time it snares, making it short enough. Perhaps also giving a few more mobility immunity baseline tools to some specs would also allow to alleviate the issue. While not perfect, that would at least settle the most glaring ridiculousness of the probe.

 

Those mobile classes rarely even get bothered by the snare. Sins and a Maras for example have passives and abilities/utilise they can pop often to stop them being snared.

How about the Sins who take a lot of those speed utilities, snare does nothing and they can duck in and attack you so fast and get out of your target cone that it's pointless even trying to use it on them.

The first time I saw Sins using these utilities with the changes in 5.0, I would have sworn they were speed hacking they move so damn fast. But I looked it up and jumped on my Sins and Shadows and I'm the damn flash.

We basically have an arms race in this game between stuns, snares, mez vs speed, stun breaks, immunity.

It got really bad a few expansions ago when it became stun wars. Every damn class seemed to have multiple and nobody at all could move. So they introduce more immunity, breaks and speed to offset the stun fest.

Ideally they should have just reverted it back the way it was, but Bio never admit a mistake and just try to fix it by going the other way.

We now have more stuns, snares, mez, immunity. Superspeed, and stun breaks than ever before. It's like the height of the Cold War where the US and the Soviets could destroy the world 10 times over, it's over kill

While ever we have that state of the game I don't see any reason that snipers should have this ability nerfed, especially when certain classes are basically immune to it most of the time. If you put it on CD then you need to also extend the CD of those speed, immunity and break abilities or the snare is pointless.

Edited by Icykill_
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This is respectable I guess. It does settle the issue of roadblocking teams at chokepoints easily, altough I think voidstar caps are still going go be problematics.

 

Still, I the issue at hand here also concern the constant replacement of the probe on melee classes until they are totally out of movement impairing breaks, considering that being a sniper most likely their main gap closer will not be working to start with.

 

There is however a small delay when the probe drops before the snare takes hold, so any mobile class should, assuming they are already moving be nearly out of it by the time it snares, making it short enough. Perhaps also giving a few more mobility immunity baseline tools to some specs would also allow to alleviate the issue. While not perfect, that would at least settle the most glaring ridiculousness of the probe.

Thank you for seeing what I've been trying to say dude/dudette (delete as applicable).

 

I think to some degree people are going to have to settle on that, engineering is a very unique spec. Plasma probe can be used as a defensive, offensive and objective skill....on some occasions, all at the same time. There's no other skill in the game that's quite like it, and personally I believe the game is richer for it. As long as it's balanced.

 

This is why the nerf to the healing on ballistic shield and the change to countermeasures I've suggested previously comes in. Historically voidstar has always been the place where an engineering sniper can truly shine, but the fix in those days was really quite simple. You track down the sniper and kill him/her. Of course back then our defences weren't as good. These days our defences are in a very good position, the healing we now have is...in my opinion...a little too good for what was required.

 

When it comes to snipers in general the best thing to do I to watch what the better players do. If they see a sniper on the other side, they'll save one of their skills specifically for them. I have to say, and this isn't directed at you or anyone in particular, but as a sniper it's funny to hear people say you cannot jump to a sniper because of the cover mechanic.

 

You see, positioning is key, it's critical to a sniper's position. Any sniper worth a damn will be able to tell you they've put themselves down in a perfect position, only for some idiot sorc or merc to come right next to them...allowing the enemy a target to jump to, in order to close the distance to the sniper. Of course what tends to happen is that sorc/merc/whoever tends to run away and leave you with to deal with the mess they've caused.

 

Is a sniper is in cover and you're the opposite side of the area, concentrate on something else. If the sniper is entrenched, go do something else. If the sniper moves, go for it, if one of the snipers teammates is close to him, use them to get to the sniper. If you find yourself out in the open, chalk it up to experience and realise you've taken the sniper in a setting that suits him better. If you need to get to the sniper and there are LOS possibilities, use them.

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Those mobile classes rarely even get bothered by the snare. Sins and a Maras for example have passives and abilities/utilise they can pop often to stop them being snared.

How about the Sins who take a lot of those speed utilities, snare does nothing and they can duck in and attack you so fast and get out of your target cone that it's pointless even trying to use it on them.

The first time I saw Sins using these utilities with the changes in 5.0, I would have sworn they were speed hacking they move so damn fast. But I looked it up and jumped on my Sins and Shadows and I'm the damn flash.

We basically have an arms race in this game between stuns, snares, mez vs speed, stun breaks, immunity.

It got really bad a few expansions ago when it became stun wars. Every damn class seemed to have multiple and nobody at all could move. So they introduce more immunity, breaks and speed to offset the stun fest.

Ideally they should have just reverted it back the way it was, but Bio never admit a mistake and just try to fix it by going the other way.

We now have more stuns, snares, mez, immunity. Superspeed, and stun breaks than ever before. It's like the height of the Cold War where the US and the Soviets could destroy the world 10 times over, it's over kill

While ever we have that state of the game I don't see any reason that snipers should have this ability nerfed, especially when certain classes are basically immune to it most of the time. If you put it on CD then you need to also extend the CD of those speed, immunity and break abilities or the snare is pointless.

 

I've been banned from posting for many months and this is the first opportunity since 5.0 dropped that i am able to post, as the ban has just need lifted right before I wrote this post [i had been banned for three months as well just prior to this ban, so save for a small time in between, its been more or less 6 months. I have been keeping up with the forums however and have been reading posts all along so I know what's been going on the forums throughout the ban. Please excuse the length, I've got over three months pent up responses trying to blast their way out of my skull heh. Additionally, please excuse the many spelling and grammatical errors that are about to insue. I'm a total moron.

 

For the record, I play a Carnage marauder on the shadowlands for the last 5 years and have a good reputation as a skilled player of the class.At this point I have mastered the class.

 

From following the posting boards for all this time [and before the bans, not the first ban i fear =p} I must say that generally speaking I tend to agree with you on pretty much everything, which is why I was so suprised to see you come out in support of the current state of snipers in PVP. You are certainly entitled to your opinion of course.

 

A couple of general points.

 

Prior to 5.0. I have always been a strong supporter of snipers as the only the pure DPS class in the game, looking back on my posting history this can easily be ascertained. This inspite of the fact that I don't play a sniper. That said....

 

 

With 5.0 -

 

Siteing reasons why snipers aren't OP or how a 70% perma slow that can literally be kept up indefinately if so desired, would fall on deaf ears. There is nothing I have read from others that has in anyway changed my opinion, that snipers in the current meta are anything short of the epitome of OP. With regard to melee in particular, they are even more OP than mercs.{Not all melee suffer to the same degree tho, those with perma stealth have options other melee dont, namely, that the sniper doesnt even know where they are when invisible so they than therefore cannot keep them at bay. While these melee might not have it quite as bad overall, if they are insight, they share the difficulties the same as any other melee. Marauders, Juggs, and PTs stand little chance against a competent sniper. This all assumes that all parties are roughly equally competant with their classes, of course.}

 

Just so there is no confususin, I'm not saying that it's only engineering snipers that are OP in pvp, I am saying it is all the specs, engineering just being the worst offender.

 

Competent snipers, who are aware of a melee's presence and wish to keep them away, can do so with virtual impunity if it is there desire to deal with said melee.

 

For those times that you might actually have enough time to get a few attacks in, they are met with rediculous defenses that snipers possess and self healing.

 

Pure DPS classes should be glass canons. No pure DPS class has the right to self healing, and no right to the kind of mutliple types of defenses they possess. There is no downside to snipers. They are strong in every respect. Even mobility. Given not only the ability to roll, the defensive buffs while doing so, and the virtual immunity they have, one cannot say they the suffer from mobility problems. Let us also remember, that they can walk and run just like anyone else can. The argument being, "but if they walk or run people can attack them, leap to them, etc.",that is absolutely true, but no more true than it is for any other class doing so. Join the club.

 

This notion that somehow ranged is owed anti-melee measures boggles the mind. If ranged deserve anti-melee measures, than melee deserves anti-ranged measures. Let's be fair here, it is alot easier to get out of a melee's range than it is for a melee to get out of a ranged classes range. Ranged have inherently better uptime than melee, both in pve and pvp. This is self evident, and snipers have more range than any other class in the game, even more range than other ranged classes.

 

So here's where we're at with regard to sniper's vs. melee.

 

*Snipers have better DPS than melee.

*Snipers have better defensives than most melee

*Snipers have more healing than most melee [marauders not having any, cept anni]

*Snipers who are crouched cant be lept to, interupted, cced, or forced to move against thier will.

*Snipers can hit more enemies than any other class in terms of range.

*Snipers attacking anyone else but another sniper at 35' can hit them but can't be hit back.

*Snipers cannot be prevented from rolling and thus gaining all the defensive bonus that come with it. (i.e. dodge melee and ranged attacks by 200% for 3 seconds., covered escape [and the heal that can go with it] even if they do move manually which leaves them more open to attack than usual, they still get defensive bonus' if they choose to do so if they were entrenched [movement speed by 50% and grants immunity to movement impairing effects. Lasts 6 seconds.]

 

With regard to engineering snipers.

 

This is where it gets harder to understand how anyone can believe that they are not OP, of course im referring to plasma probe.

 

I can think of no other ability in the game that is more deserving of a nerf than this one. I hate to rehash, but -

 

70% slow.

AOE damage

spamable

Can be kept in effect indefinately.

Can be moved at will.

Can be ended prematurely and reset, constituting for all intents and purposed a new plasma probe.

 

This last point is the kicker.

2 movement effect purges, 5 movement effect purges, it really doesn't matter. You shrug it off, you have a brand no one put right back in its place. Given than plasma probe can just be reset without CD, it makes the movement purging abilities null and void. No one has 5 of em, even if they did, it wouldnt matter, so stating a class has movement purge abilities to "shrug off" the effects of plasma probe is a smoke and glass defense in trying to justify it as not being OP.

 

No marauder [except fury], no Jugg, no PT, No Assy, can hope to have anyway of countering newly placed plasma probes placed in sucession after a movement purge ability is used. They'll just keep putting new ones down back to back. - You are not going to out purge them, period.

 

On certain maps it is even more hopeless to avoid plama probe effects. As on certain maps, everyone is going to be roughly in the same place each time. Voidstar for example, you have to be at that door defending, you have to be at that door bomb planting. Ergo, you have to be constantly and incessantly effected by plasma probe.

 

Even if you take away the slow issue[which you can't, but still =] ], it's also a nice little bs way of insuring 100% uptime damage dealing that is completely unavoidable as there aren't damage purges, defensives yes, but whatever the values may be,you are taking damage 100% of the time.

 

Ohh yeah, you also stand no chance of planting a bomb. Zero. None. Not even 1% chance. Impossible. Thats fair.

 

"But thats why you have to kill the Sniper! Don't let him free cast!"

 

Agreed, but, unless you have ranged on those snipers, your not killing them, because no melee is going to be able to stay on said sniper long enough to kill him. Attacking said sniper is not going to prevent him from keeping the constant plasma probes coming.Be nice if you could interupt them, but, naturally, theyre immune to interupts amongst many other things.

 

Alderaan

Novare Coast

The Ancient Hypergate

The Grounds

 

All maps where you are gaurnteed to have muliple players clustered closely together.

All maps that you are going to need to channel [a node i.e.], all places where one engineering sniper has the capacity to insure that no matter how many people are trying to channel an objective, they cannot suceed all because of plasma probe.

 

An attack that can keep doing damage forever. An attack that you dont even need to make physical contact with an opponent. An attack that can damage as many people as can fit into that not small raidius.

An attack than at the same time makes it extremely difficuly to get out of.

 

But there is one sure fire defense against all the effects of plasma probe,that the sniper can do nothing to overcome. - Run away and hide.

 

Thats fair.

---------------------------------

 

Melee attacks - Flash bang. No way around the effects.

 

Melee attacks - Roll, leg shot, slowed. You can't hit the sniper, he can hit you.

 

Melee somehow crawls his way back - Attacks - Knockback with root -

You can't hit the sniper, but he can hit you.

 

Melee trys and walk back to sniper. - Plasma probe -

You can't hit the sniper, but he can hit you.

 

Melee makes it back to sniper - Sniper places plasma probe directly on top of himself and hardstun - gets up and walks away and replants himself - You can't hit sniper, but he can hit you.

 

Plasma probe between you and him, you use movement purge, he plants another plasma probe on you -

You can't hit the sniper, but he can hit you.

 

Rinse and repeat.

 

 

As a melee, I would much prefer to fight a merc. It's one thing to be outgunned, it's another thing to not be able to attack an opponent who can continually attack you.

 

As bad as mercs are, I'd rather wait for their day to come in preference of snipers getting their day sooner.

 

You can say anything you want to try and defend plasma probe. But here is an undeniable fact. It is sucking all the joy and fun out of playing melee in PVP.

 

Trying to say there are work arounds to this ability that are anyway akin to working around merc's obscene dcds is misleading in some cases and an outright lie in others.

 

It's been stated that maras [regarding carnage and annihilation] and "other mobile classes" have passives and abilities/utilise they can pop often to stop them being snared. Speaking only for maras, I can say with certainty, that they possess no abilities or utilities that they can pop "often" to stop them from being snared. There is nothing often about it. Furthermore, in the case of plasma probe, it's a mote point, beause no utility or ability that can stop being snared can be spammed and that is what would be required in order to "work around" plasma probe.Thusly, one or two are as good as none,at best it will delay the effects for one second which is all it takes for the sniper to reset a new one.

 

I challange anyone to produce a video of a melee without perma stealth, 1v1ing an engineering sniper who is competant [and the skill levels being roughly equal] in the spec and winning. Even a Fury mara is not likely to win, he might fair better than his brethern of other specs, but his cc immunities do not in anyway alter the defensive superiority and instant ability to roll away of a sniper, to say nothing of the dps superiority of the sniper [althought that is less of an issue].

 

The only snipers true melee dps are going to beat one on one are those who are significantly less skilled, and the snipers who let them stay near them. You are not staying in arms reach of a sniper who doesn't let you stay there. It's a choice, and its the snipers choice. Because if he doesn't want you that close to him, there is nothing you can do stay close to him for more than a second or two.

 

In closing, let me just say this. I get people not wanting to get their favored class/spec nerfed, I really do. And I don't mind people who are actively trying to see that not happen, that at least I can respect. But please,time to man up,stop acting like are not substantial class imbalances between ranged and melee. It is so blatantly obvious that denying it makes people look so silly.

 

I didn't want to lose 3 percent of my alacrity that i had had due to double stance, and im sure assassins didnt want to lose the extra dps they had because of theirs,it was a straight up nerf, but, it was too advatangoes and unfair, and i could recognize that, so there was no complaining.

 

Fair or unfair, what specs were like in the past, who was Op and who was underpowered in the past, none of it matters. No one is "owed" OP nor is it earned.

 

 

Plasma probe is sucking all the joy and fun out of pvping for melee. That is just a simple fact. Now, some people might not care about that, especially when it might not have much impact on them, but those of us who are trying to have some fun playing melee, we do care.

 

That sniper's serve as some sort of balance to keep mercs in check, completely ignores the fact that if snipers can go toe to toe with mercs on an even level, that simply makes them all the worse for the rest of the classes. It does not validate thier level of power overall. Mercs and Snipers are both unjustifiably OP imo.

 

If 20 people say that shirt im wearing is green and two people say the shirt im wearing is blue, chances are good im wearing the right shirt for St. Patrick's Day.

 

I think you'll find that more people are saying this is a problem as is than not, substaintially more. Additionally

You dont buff 7 classes to offset an overtunned 8th class.

 

And before anyone responds with "L2P" responses, please look me up on Parsley, names 'Grim'alkun'. Nothing from the last few months, but, they'll still serve the purpose.

 

 

Icy - Your good peoples. This post is not directed at you, merely the subject matter. I find you very likeable and possessing the rare quality of being able to agree to disagree. While I don't agree with you on this, I pretty much agree with you on most other things. Overall I find your PVP "credentials" largely impeccable.

 

P.S. #nerfoperatives

 

P.P.S. - Seriously, nerf the hell out of mercs.

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