Engi snipers > Nerf pls.

[Icykill_]

Icy, just a heads up, the link you provided is a dead link. Doesn't show any pics. If the web addy is correct, you might need to re-up the pics.

 

Fixed, try this one - http://m.imgur.com/gallery/vpJco

[Icykill_]

This thread has troll and l2play writen all over it. Nerf Engi snipers? yeah right.

 

 

 

Look, someone who also supports my view that snipers are fine.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

Fixed, try this one - http://m.imgur.com/gallery/vpJco

 

Yup yup, that did it =] Could see all the various WZs scoreboards.

[Johrun]

The only class I'd nerf is merc, but only slightly.

 

Focus sniper, kill him, problem solved. Don't let him free cast.

 

Dealing with multiple snipers is another matter, but happens rarely.

[Icykill_]

I said in a much earlier post that I had been taking pics of the score boards to show the actual mix of Snipers in matches compared to other classes. Some People have been arguing snipers are becoming FOTM. (My brother has edited these to protect the innocent 🙄 and uploaded them for me on his Imgur because I don't use it)

I also want to point out how most of the classes playing against snipers/GS are Mercs. It's one of the reasons that I am defending snipers so much because I believe most of the "nerf" snipers is coming from Mercs because they can't face tank snipers and they don't know how to LoS. They are using melee as a scapegoat for this which is why I don't think they know enough tactics on melee to counter snipers with them. If you only play FOTM easy classes, then you will never be good enough on more difficult classes.

I'm sorry if this offends some of you, I'm calling it as I see it and from my own experiences sniper hunting with my Mara and also being on the receiving end on my sniper.

You will notice there are only a few games where there is more than one sniper per team. Lots of games its just me.

I've taken these pics from a sniper/Mercs point of view to point out just how many are in matches. My next lot will be Mara/Sent.

 

Here is the link - http://m.imgur.com/gallery/vpJco. [edited to fix the link]

 

I know this isn't enough to convince some of you. But this is the only way I can support my side of this debate.

 

Here are the Mara pics I promised. There was a double upload of one by mistake.

 

https://m.imgur.com/a/85ho3

Edited April 25, 2017 by Icykill_

[Icykill_]

The only class I'd nerf is merc, but only slightly.

 

Focus sniper, kill him, problem solved. Don't let him free cast.

 

Dealing with multiple snipers is another matter, but happens rarely.

 

Exactly 😊

[Jake_Chambers]

Multiple top ranked players have posted on these forums their views of snipers in the current meta. They all agree that snipers are somewhat overpowered due to the combination of damage output, uptime, excellent survivability, and cc immunity. In addition, plasma probes new radius and lack of cd (combined with a whopping 70% slow) is simply too strong versus melee classes. The only reason not everyone sees them for how broken they are is because they're too busy noticing the mercs. Edited April 25, 2017 by Jake_Chambers

[Jake_Chambers]

Engineering pretty clearly needs a nerf to its aoe damage and slow capabilities. While they're at it, move buffed kolto overload from mercs to powertechs.

 

Engineering has always been an annoying troll spec that's dead easy to play in pvp while. From the days of wallbang to the current black hole vortex that is plasma probe, Bioware have never gotten it right with this spec.

 

^^^^^^^^^

[Thaladan]

12.29.2016 :

 

 

(...)

 

Don't play engineering in its current state.

 

Hope this helped!

 

Yes this is a fair point,

 

IMO, competitive group ranked specs:

 

DPS

Sniper- Marksman, Virulence

Marauder- Carnage, Annihilation

Merc- Arsenal

Sin- Deception

 

(..)

 

 

so according to enzoforme, engi was not good but a +3meters radius for plasma probe just suddenly make them OP AND easier to play than MM.

 

noted

Edited April 25, 2017 by Thaladan

[Jake_Chambers]

12.29.2016 :

 

 

 

 

 

 

so according to enzoforme, engi was not good but a +3meters radius for plasma probe just suddenly make them OP AND easier to play than MM.

 

noted

 

The meta changed as people explored diff combos. I'm pretty sure caprica knows what he's talking about given his experience in ranked.

[BaineOs]

The meta changed as people explored diff combos. I'm pretty sure caprica knows what he's talking about given his experience in ranked.

 

Caprica might be a top ranked player but he's still wrong about plasma probe needing a nerf in it's slow capability.

[Jake_Chambers]

Caprica might be a top ranked player but he's still wrong about plasma probe needing a nerf in it's slow capability.

 

He really isn't. One of three things about plasma probe needs to be nerfed. Either

-how often it can be spammed

-the radius

-the slow itself

 

As of now engi condemns every melee player to a constant massive slow which can be easily reapplied

[Cretinus]

... The only reason not everyone sees them for how broken they are is because they're too busy noticing the mercs.

 

I'd rather say that the only reason why not everyone sees them for how broken they are, is because they're too busy playing them.

[BaineOs]

He really isn't. One of three things about plasma probe needs to be nerfed. Either

-how often it can be spammed

-the radius

-the slow itself

 

As of now engi condemns every melee player to a constant massive slow which can be easily reapplied

 

He really is, I'm not detailing the nerfs I myself propose again (I've repeated myself far too many times). I admit that something needs to change, just do a search on the posts I've made in this thread (and the other one that was going around), and you'll find them. Do those nerfs to engineering/snipers and the problem will be fixed.

 

No cooldown, or reduction in the slow is required on plasma probe.

Edited April 25, 2017 by BaineOs

[EnzoForMe]

I'll touch on why probe is a problem in regs and group ranked, starting with group ranked. Engineering sniper is indicative of a systemic problem in how Bioware has decided to increase relative power of classes in each expansion.

 

In order to understand why engineering is the top pressure dps spec for team ranked currently in the game, there's a few things you need to appreciate.

 

There are two primary ways to play group ranked: pressure and hardswap. For historical context, there has been an uptick in viability and relative strength of pressure comps in each major class balance change since 2.0 due to a proliferation of defensive cool downs. In the past, hard swap was always the strongest way to play because if you mezzed the tank, controlled the healer, and controlled your kill target to cycle through that kill target's defensives, they are dead.

 

In current state of the game, mercs and snipers as classes are overtuned defensively. The three main dps classes you will see in team ranked are snipers, mercs, and maras. Good Maras are also difficult to kill but not overpowered.

 

Because the three main dps classes have such strong defensive cooldowns, playing hard swap successfully literally requires you have players that are top at their class and have been educated in how to play hard swap through multiple seasons of team ranked. Mercs, for example, have to be cycled through 4 times >maybe< land a kill on them, it's usually better to just go for their healer instead. Snipers are extremely difficult as well, and should be near impossible if you don't have a sniper of your own with diversion.

 

Because landing burst kills is so hard in the current meta, pressure comps have resurfaced as a legitimate competitive strategy.

 

That's the defensive cool down side of the coin. Snipers always had great defensives and utilities in group ranked but they were reasonable and you could cycle through them. The added self heals from 2 legendary utilities and bonus to dodge duration tipped the scale.

 

As a quick aside for solo ranked, in past seasons like season 4 where I held the #1 slot, sniper was miserable to play because like mercs our defensive cooldowns were abysmal and we were focused first. I currently hold the #1 slot for season 8 and I rush in for aggro because I know I can take it while dishing out damage. Totally different dynamic and sniper has never been easier to play in solo ranked, not even in season 2 when wallbang was strong.

 

But back to my point, Some have touched on defensives and identified that as the root cause. While I would say it's a major problem, plasma probe is also a major issue.

 

Engineering + Annihlation is currently the strongest pressure pair. Explosive probe with its ridiculous radius allows a sniper to trap at least 3 of the opponent in cleave. Using escapes or boosts such as predation is futile, the probe has no cooldown. What the probe also does is buff all aoe damage by 10%. This means you can often trap the other team in a plasma probe + suppressive fire + orbital strike combo (while your interrogation probe with no cool down is ticking and your explosive probe + its cluster bombs are triggered by suppressive fire) and an emp discharge that acts as a

strong tech aoe + energy regeneration is being spread to at least 3 players every 6 Gcds while acting as an additional hardstun which from a dps perspective is unprecedented in swtor.

 

That's just the sniper side, and because engineering has ridiculously strong energy regeneration, it can sustain that kind of aoe pressure better than any other class.

 

Remember, the probe is slowing at least 3/4 of the other team to 70%, increasing all aoe damage taken by 10, and it's pretty much inescapable. This allows your Mara to easily dot spread with smash and overcome the classes historical limitation on low uptime to give it plenty of options to hit.

 

The probe is the key to the massive amounts of damage that pressure comps can do, and shifts the meta in a way I haven't seen since 3.0 era power techs and sorcs. Power techs and sorcs, however, were always far squishier than current snipers and engi snipers in particular.

 

Engineering as a rotation in pvp is very similar to its pve rotation. It's incredibly easy to execute in pvp and there's little you can do to disrupt it, especially if you don't have a sniper or your own.

 

How do we fix it?

 

Engineering needs to have more difficult and taxing energy management

Plasma Probe radius needs to be decreased and the slow decreased to 50%

Plasma probe needs a cool down- It's too easy to spam when players move out of it.

Snipers as a class need to lose one of the legendary healing utilities

 

But balance isn't done in a vaccum. Snipers are the valasa raptors keeping the t rex mercs and (only team ranked) maras in check.

 

Swap koltos of pt and merc, make the pt one passive to heal double ticks to 70% instead of a utility like it is for merc

Increase the cooldown while taking damage of the ridiculous reactive shield + its heal from 30 seconds to 1 minute- this is broken for ranked, teams in particular

Nerf obfuscate utility for maras

 

In combonation, these will better balance team ranked, and allow more representation from hard swap comps which in my opinion is the end game of team ranked skill in a relatively balanced swtor. You'll also see slightly more class diversity from these changes alone- deception sin would become tier 1 again instead of tier 2.

 

 

Much if what I said also applies to regs, but multiple engineering snipers compound mobility and survivability problems more than stacking the same class normally does.

Edited April 25, 2017 by EnzoForMe

[Thaladan]

The meta changed as people explored diff combos. I'm pretty sure caprica knows what he's talking about given his experience in ranked.

 

i totally agree on this ! and i understant and respect enzoforme's point of view in his las post. and i assume that i can't argue about group ranked.

 

but it's more a meta matter than an OP matter.

 

- because mercs and sorcheal survivability is insane !

 

- because PTs are weak and less played. PT is a good class to beat an engi sniper with burst+hydraulic+close and personal passive.

 

you don't focus the real problem. just people see plasma probe as the cherry on the cake to all this imbalance. it's more visible it's frustrating but it's not THE cause.

 

nerf mercs, nerf sorcheal, buff PT, don't touch sniper and you'll see if it's OP. i am sure not.

Edited April 25, 2017 by Thaladan

[BaineOs]

How do we fix it?

 

Engineering needs to have more difficult and taxing energy management

Plasma Probe radius needs to be decreased and the slow decreased to 50%

Plasma probe needs a cool down- It's too easy to spam when players move out of it.

Snipers as a class need to lose one of the legendary healing utilities

...dude we were so close. Until you edited it and slapped in that insane call for a cooldown.

 

Regarding the radius...yup agreed...said so many times. There wasn't any need or call to buff it to 8m, 5m was and still is perfectly fine.

 

The healing reduction...again yup. Said it here many times, for me it's the healing on ballistic shield. Leaving the heal on covered escape would have been pretty satisfactory by itself.

 

But the slow to 50%, dude you know full well why it was buffed from 50% to 70%, if you slap a cooldown on it and reduce the slow then you'll have to make some amendments to that 2s stun via EMP Discharge. The whole reason why that 70% slow was put in, is quite simple. With a radius of 5m and a slow of 50%, you could never actually get that stun to take effect, by the time you're able to smash that keybind, they've already walked out of the area.

 

Not forgetting that the reason the cooldown was removed in the first place was having that cooldown was causing problems for PVE.

 

As soon as you slap a cooldown and slow reduction on plasma probe then you have to completely rework it. the 2 sec stun is still required in order to able to get the damage dealt (use I've heard all arguments regarding plasma probe and damage, lets not go there dude...the thread is long enough as it I). They'd also have to amend the damage from damage over time to front loaded damage, like it was originally.

 

That would be much more of an extensive change than a lot of people realise

 

remove the healing from ballistic shield (legendary utility) - Yes

Reduce the radius to 5m - yup

 

but also get rid of the speed buff on countermeasures as well as the purge to movement imparring effects. We don't need this with the purge we already have on covered escape. The speed boost we used to get on shiv was much better suited to the class. this is of course the re-establish range utility.

 

Those three changes alone (together with the simultaneous nerfing of mercs), would be more than sufficient. Anything else is overkill.

Edited April 25, 2017 by BaineOs

[Quarast]

I'll touch on why probe is a problem in regs and group ranked, starting with group ranked. Engineering sniper is indicative of a systemic problem in how Bioware has decided to increase relative power of classes in each expansion.

 

In order to understand why engineering is the top pressure dps spec for team ranked currently in the game, there's a few things you need to appreciate.

 

There are two primary ways to play group ranked: pressure and hardswap. For historical context, there has been an uptick in viability and relative strength of pressure comps in each major class balance change since 2.0 due to a proliferation of defensive cool downs. In the past, hard swap was always the strongest way to play because if you mezzed the tank, controlled the healer, and controlled your kill target to cycle through that kill target's defensives, they are dead.

 

In current state of the game, mercs and snipers as classes are overtuned defensively. The three main dps classes you will see in team ranked are snipers, mercs, and maras. Good Maras are also difficult to kill but not overpowered.

 

Because the three main dps classes have such strong defensive cooldowns, playing hard swap successfully literally requires you have players that are top at their class and have been educated in how to play hard swap through multiple seasons of team ranked. Mercs, for example, have to be cycled through 4 times >maybe< land a kill on them, it's usually better to just go for their healer instead. Snipers are extremely difficult as well, and should be near impossible if you don't have a sniper of your own with diversion.

 

Because landing burst kills is so hard in the current meta, pressure comps have resurfaced as a legitimate competitive strategy.

 

That's the defensive cool down side of the coin. Snipers always had great defensives and utilities in group ranked but they were reasonable and you could cycle through them. The added self heals from 2 legendary utilities and bonus to dodge duration tipped the scale.

 

As a quick aside for solo ranked, in past seasons like season 4 where I held the #1 slot, sniper was miserable to play because like mercs our defensive cooldowns were abysmal and we were focused first. I currently hold the #1 slot for season 8 and I rush in for aggro because I know I can take it while dishing out damage. Totally different dynamic and sniper has never been easier to play in solo ranked, not even in season 2 when wallbang was strong.

 

But back to my point, Some have touched on defensives and identified that as the root cause. While I would say it's a major problem, plasma probe is also a major issue.

 

Engineering + Annihlation is currently the strongest pressure pair. Explosive probe with its ridiculous radius allows a sniper to trap at least 3 of the opponent in cleave. Using escapes or boosts such as predation is futile, the probe has no cooldown. What the probe also does is buff all aoe damage by 10%. This means you can often trap the other team in a plasma probe + suppressive fire + orbital strike combo (while your interrogation probe with no cool down is ticking and your explosive probe + its cluster bombs are triggered by suppressive fire) and an emp discharge that acts as a

strong tech aoe + energy regeneration is being spread to at least 3 players every 6 Gcds while acting as an additional hardstun which from a dps perspective is unprecedented in swtor.

 

That's just the sniper side, and because engineering has ridiculously strong energy regeneration, it can sustain that kind of aoe pressure better than any other class.

 

Remember, the probe is slowing at least 3/4 of the other team to 70%, increasing all aoe damage taken by 10, and it's pretty much inescapable. This allows your Mara to easily dot spread with smash and overcome the classes historical limitation on low uptime to give it plenty of options to hit.

 

The probe is the key to the massive amounts of damage that pressure comps can do, and shifts the meta in a way I haven't seen since 3.0 era power techs and sorcs. Power techs and sorcs, however, were always far squishier than current snipers and engi snipers in particular.

 

Engineering as a rotation in pvp is very similar to its pve rotation. It's incredibly easy to execute in pvp and there's little you can do to disrupt it, especially if you don't have a sniper or your own.

 

How do we fix it?

 

Engineering needs to have more difficult and taxing energy management

Plasma Probe radius needs to be decreased and the slow decreased to 50%

Plasma probe needs a cool down- It's too easy to spam when players move out of it.

Snipers as a class need to lose one of the legendary healing utilities

 

But balance isn't done in a vaccum. Snipers are the valasa raptors keeping the t rex mercs and (only team ranked) maras in check.

 

Swap koltos of pt and merc, make the pt one passive to heal double ticks to 70% instead of a utility like it is for merc

Increase the cooldown while taking damage of the ridiculous reactive shield + its heal from 30 seconds to 1 minute- this is broken for ranked, teams in particular

Nerf obfuscate utility for maras

 

In combonation, these will better balance team ranked, and allow more representation from hard swap comps which in my opinion is the end game of team ranked skill in a relatively balanced swtor. You'll also see slightly more class diversity from these changes alone- deception sin would become tier 1 again instead of tier 2.

 

 

Much if what I said also applies to regs, but multiple engineering snipers compound mobility and survivability problems more than stacking the same class normally does.

 

/thread

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

Here are the Mara pics I promised. There was a double upload of one by mistake.

 

https://m.imgur.com/a/85ho3

 

Yeah I was going over some WZ pics I had and there are a ton of maras. Honestly After merc the classes you see most are Sorcs and Assys. That said, there are many instances where I'm the only Mara, but there are also many instances when I'm not. Rare? Not by a long shot.

[VIZIOO]

Give their aoe a cooldown. Fixed. Doesnt have to be super long, but a small one would be great. Or remove the 70% slow.

 

Totally agree. Give their AoE a cooldown or reduse their slow to at least 50%. 70% slow makes it a root ability. Their ratio AoE is an exaggeration, and makes it next to impossible to counter or navigate through.

Edited May 5, 2017 by VIZIOO

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

Totally agree. Give their AoE a cooldown or reduse their slow to at least 50%. 70% slow makes it a root ability. Their ratio AoE is an exaggeration, and makes it next to impossible to counter or navigate through.

 

Adding to the problem, you are seeing more and more engineering snipers in PVP every day. I'm starting to see two sometimes three in many matches. They just blanket the entire area with Plasma probe constantly and there is just no way of getting around it because it's spammable and it's game breaking. At this point, I'm not sure if even lowering their defensives and heals would be enough to offset the effects of plasma probe enough to make that a viable option in leaving plasma probe as is. The no CD factor means its never going away and you are never gonna have enough blockers/breaks to get around it's incessant use. Not only is their the insane slow factor which can be a death sentence with all the wzs filled with firing squads, but your also taking constant damage, and while it's a small amount, when you are always taking it the entire match practically it adds up. That might not be much of an issue for some classes, but when you have no self heals at all it does start to add up.

 

I think a good tip off that this ability is in fact OP is also the growing amount of instances where you are seeing Engineering sniper's being guarded. Which only adds insult to injury. They're defensive's are insane enough as it is, the little uptime you may get on them as a melee is only further made ridiculous by the addition of the guard further reducing the damage they are taking. You are not staying on them, and that little damage you did do for the few seconds you got at them they just end up healing away in short order anyways. They're a pure DPS class [a technicality these days], they shouldn't have any heals at all.

 

I realize that they always had plasma probe in the past. But the radius of it was increased by 3 in 5.0 [bringing it's radius to 8' from 5'] and they didn't have the kind of survivability and DPS they have now. They are far to strong across the board, and between plasma probe, normal slows,knockbacks and roots, the ability to roll and virtual total CC immunity a great deal of the time they absolutely dominate melee if the user is competent. No class should have that kind of control on so many others.

 

They're as bad as mercs are, and vs. melee they are even worse than mercs.

Edited May 5, 2017 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[Lortemand]

Problem is, if you nerf engi snipers, people can only play 1 class: MERC.

And to be honest, i think we have enough mercs already *cough*

[AlCorazon]

See what is interesting, Plasma probe and Sniper defenses were there pre 5.0 and healing utility from Ballistic Shield won't save anyoen from being globalled, so i don't see what the issue is

[Metthew]

remove the healing from ballistic shield (legendary utility) - Yes

Reduce the radius to 5m - yup

 

but also get rid of the speed buff on countermeasures as well as the purge to movement imparring effects. We don't need this with the purge we already have on covered escape. The speed boost we used to get on shiv was much better suited to the class. this is of course the re-establish range utility.

I think it would bet much better to introduce a CD on Plasma Probe and reduce its slow, than to reduce its range to 5m. At least as I remember it, the Plasma Probe damage was way too easily avoided in PvP.

 

As for countermeasures, I already use it a lot as MM for repositioning, and will need it even more once our DCD's are properly nerfed. The speed boost was always useful for kiting, and the purge is a good additional bonus.

 

Or taking into the account that snipers as a whole have so many mobility and def skills which makes them the most survivable dps class in the game, while also dishing out crazy damage.

 

Let's not exaggerate, mercs are still more survivable.

 

See what is interesting, Plasma probe and Sniper defenses were there pre 5.0 and healing utility from Ballistic Shield won't save anyoen from being globalled, so i don't see what the issue is

Actually, the healing on Ballistic Shield, the heals on roll, and the Vital Regulators all add up to quite a bit. That's actually why before 5.0, I had advocated to only bumping Vital Regulators to 2.5% - and as my guildmates can confirm called out on snipers being too good if the datamined changes were to go through - a little bump in getting heals was what we needed, against classes that have active self-heals and just LOS and make us pay.

Edited May 5, 2017 by Metthew

[Balameb]

See what is interesting, Plasma probe and Sniper defenses were there pre 5.0 and healing utility from Ballistic Shield won't save anyoen from being globalled, so i don't see what the issue is

 

I was doing my best to stay away from this topics as i'm newer, but what you are saying (and also many others) that PP and the defenses were there pre 5.X is just not very accurate:

 

* PP radio in 4.0 was 5. Now is 8. When i read about this i actually calculated what is the real difference with this is. Radio increase is 60% but Area increase is more: The new one is 2,56 times the old one (156% increase).

 

Defenses (from looking at guides of 4.X) i got this:

* Vital regulators was double from 1% to 2% every 3 sec.

* Balistic Shield heal is new (and comes with extra damage reduction).

* Tactical retreat is new: That is 10% heal when rolling and 2 extra seconds on evasion.

 

So from my simple analisis i see that in 5.0 snipers got at least Two new heals and the one that was already there was doubled. That is an issue considering that Snipers already had nice defenses: Evasion works much better than operatives while in cover, 60% Aoe reduction en et, all general cover benefits and even more with entrench, etc, etc.