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Tier 1 – 3 Changes Coming in 5.2


EricMusco

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Hey folks,

 

Coming with Game Update 5.2 we are making substantial changes to how Command Crates work, specifically focusing on drop rates for gear. Perhaps the single-most repeated comment about Command Crates is they do not feel rewarding due to the random nature of the contents of the crates. To resolve most of these issues, we’ve added ways for both PvP and PvE players to target specific gear slots and obtain those items directly.

 

For players looking to gear up through Galactic Command working through a Tier can feel like a grind since your rewards don’t change. You can get that same Premium belt at Command Rank 70 that you got at Rank 1, which is frustrating when you are trying to complete your class set.

 

Starting with Game Update 5.2, drop rates of better quality items (Legendary and Artifact) will get higher as you gain Command Ranks in a given Tier, while lower quality items’ (Premium and Prototype) drop rates will go down. What this means is you are encouraged to continue increasing your Command Rank as your drop rates of more desired items get higher as your Rank increases.

 

Let’s look at a Tier 2 and 3 example. Right now this is an approximation of gear drops for the entire Tier:

  • Premium (green): High drop rate
  • Prototype (blue): Medium drop rate
  • Artifact (purple): Low drop rate
  • Legendary (yellow): Very low drop rate

After 5.2, gear drops get much better as you progress through the Tier. Let’s say you were getting close to the top of your Tier, this is what your drop rates will look like:

  • Premium: No longer drop
  • Prototype: Medium-low drop rate
  • Artifact: Medium-high drop rate
  • Legendary: Medium drop rate

As you can see from the above example, after 5.2 you will be able to get higher quality gear for your characters more consistently as you progress through each Tier. This will also help in addressing concerns about the inability to get set bonus gear from Command Crates (in addition to the Operations drop changes we are making at the same time). Keep in mind, these drop rate changes apply to Tier 1, Tier 2, and Tier 3. Tier 4 works a little differently and is discussed in more detail in this thread.

 

These are the improvements we are making to Command Crates in Game Update 5.2. Let us know what you think.

 

-eric

 

Eric my suggestion for gold drops would be "universal unassembled" piece drops. By Universal for gold drops allow players to select whatever piece they desire (MH, OH, set pieces, or LHS gear) . The reason I say this is players may want to start on an off spec or if you are a PVP tank you may want to get the tank armorings first then move to the dps mods and enhancements doing this makes the grind longer and by not allowing players to choose their own gear can mean gear they don't want (dps gear full but wanting to start on a tank set but haven't/forgotten to switch my GC to tank). My view is if a gold piece drops why should you waste that piece if you already have it? Allowing players "universal unassembled" drops from crates removes this problem.

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Perhaps the single-most repeated comment about Command Crates is they do not feel rewarding due to the random nature of the contents of the crates. To resolve most of these issues, we’ve added ways for both PvP and PvE players to target specific gear slots and obtain those items directly.

You don't "resolve most of these issues" in the context of RNG crates, you're providing alternatives.

 

For players looking to gear up through Galactic Command working through a Tier can feel like a grind since your rewards don’t change. [...] Starting with Game Update 5.2, drop rates of better quality items (Legendary and Artifact) will get higher as you gain Command Ranks in a given Tier, while lower quality items’ (Premium and Prototype) drop rates will go down.

In other words, you're separating the current 3 tiers into 10 'groups of different item qualities' and a more fluent transition. I.e.

 

Lvl 1~30: most likely a tier 1 prototype

Lvl 31~60: most likely an tier 1 artifact

Lvl 61~90: get spammed with duplicates

Lvl 91~120: most likely a tier 2 prototype

Lvl 121~150: a relatively fair chance for an tier 2 artifact

Lvl 151~180: a not so bad chance for a tier 2 legendary item

Lvl 181~220: most likely a tier 3 prototype

Lvl 221~262: a relatively fair chance for an tier 3 artifact

Lvl 261~299: at least an existing chance for a tier 3 legendary item

Lvl 300+: most likely a tier 4 prototype, a low chance (if at all) for other tier 4 items.

 

After 5.2,[...] Let’s say you were getting close to the top of your Tier, this is what your drop rates will look like:

  • Premium: No longer drop
  • Prototype: Medium-low drop rate
  • Artifact: Medium-high drop rate
  • Legendary: Medium drop rate

Be aware that using the same words multiple times implies 'the same category'.

In a system with 3 options, medium means approx. 33%. I.e.

 

Medium-high drop rate = more than 33% (probably 40%, but no more than 50%)

Medium drop rate = 33%

Medium-low drop rate = less than 33% (probably 25% but not less than 15%)

 

But as long as there's still only a single slot for all 14 pieces, the chance to obtain a specific legendary item is only 33% / 14 = 2.2%. Even if there would be a 100% drop chance, there would still be only a 7% chance (1/14) to get the item you're looking for // hoping to get.

 

If we assume a player wouldn't get any duplicates, it would take 14 crates with a guaranteed drop to get all 14 items of that quality. But due to the fact that there are 3 different qualities of items per tier, it's unlikely that more than 30 crates will contain the highest quality. So it would require a "14 pieces out of the last 30 crates" chance. Keep that in mind when you talk about "getting closer to the top of the tier" assuming that this allows players to get the gear they want.

___

 

So all in all Eric, this doesn't really addess any of the RNG concerns, it simply provides different shades of RNG. Players that won't use the alternatives (PvP UCs, operation drops) will propably wear a mixture of prototype, artifact and legendary items from various tiers... and might be facing degrading comments, should they ever run a flashpoint with PvP- or operation-geared players.

 

IMO,the only purpose of these crates will be to give players a minor chance to skip some PvP fights or operations (if that player is lucky to get a head or mainhand f.e.). But they are still quite demotivating for all those who don't like PvP & OPs, or are forced to join random operation groups (two crappy types of RNG => the crates and the /roll mechanism).

 

Even for those who do run operations, they aren't that fascinating either. To get 8 legendary items by farming EV & KP, at least 84 crates will be of no value (the remaining 6 might contain a missing item).

 

So how can you assume that players will enjoy these new RNG crates?

(PS: Please consider if you really want to keep the PvP conversion limited to legendary items)

Edited by realleaftea
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While I understand why raiders and PvP feel that solo players do not deserve high end gear, there are two reasons we should be given the opportunity to earn it.

 

We pay the same monthly fee to play the game, and the gearing system has turned the game from earn gear to RNG gear.

 

I understand that PvP and raiding are different portions of the game, and have different importance to different people. But the current GC gearing is an abomination that has been forced on all three major types of players: raiders, PvP, and solo/casual.

 

I am not asking for the gear to handed out like cookies, just that a path be made available to pick up set bonus gear. Prior to 5.0 there was the token/gear system, and that worked well as solo players could get better gear by running enough weeklies to earn the piece they wanted. PvP gear was gated behind playing PvP, and set bonus was gated behind raids. Solo did not have access to the top end gear, but we had a shot to get gear upgrades we wanted. Now no matter what mode you enjoy the game playing, we are all stuck with a poorly thought out and implented system.

 

Just for discussion, how would a system like this work for you?

 

1) Make unassembled gear pieces available from the Dark/Light vendors for 40-50 tokens. That way you could pick the piece you wanted to get, would take some effort to get to that point, but not hand out the pieces as a free for all. The unassembled gear piece would only be tier 1, so any upgrades would have to purchased. No buying a tier 2, 3, or 4 piece.

 

2) For Heroics change the reward. You can either claim the standard chest or a GC chest that contains 1-3 unassembled tokens. This is much less than you would get for playing PvP or GSF, but still means you could earn enough to upgrade your unassembled gear piece when you purchased it. The time spent on some dailies is 5-10 minutes, which should put it in the same time frame of a PvP or GSF game, but the reward is lower than a loss. (Forgive me if I am wrong on the length of the PvP or GSF match. I only PvP'd for the DvL and GSF'd until it was no fun playing, and those were the times I experienced.)

 

This would let anyone eventually earn a few set pieces, and have the ability to upgrade as they wanted, without anyone stepping on others preferred mode of play: No forcing casual/raiders into PvP and sit out/afk/ruin the PvP game for those who like that mode. Casuals can earn gear and eventual upgrades, but at a much slower pace than raiders, so no stepping on their toes by getting gear 'that wasn't earned.'

 

I am not saying what mode of game play is better. Each person has the right to play the game in the mode they enjoy - as long as it doesn't affect the ability of others to play the game.. But if the developers take away a reward system and replace it with something that doesn't work for anyone, we should work to try and get a system that works. I felt 4.0 was a good system, maybe a little quick in some cases for gear, but at least you had the ability to set a goal for yourself. Now it is just get a crate, rarely get something good, disintegrate, rinse and repeat.

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So what, if anything is being done about the possibility of duplicate drops?

 

On my main, in Tier 1, I ended up with 5 belts and 4 boots and 2 offhand weapons. In Tier 3 I've actually gotten artifact duplicate boots along with 2 legendary legs and 3 legendary bracers. This toon would still be using a 216 chest, helmet and hands if I hadn't purchased 230 items with unassembled components.

 

On one of my alts that isn't even out of Tier 1 yet he has gotten 6 helms. The mods/enhancements aren't even useful since I already had those through crafting.

 

So unless the duplicate issue is addressed successfully you can increase the drop rate all you want but if you end up with nothing but duplicate items the frustration will still be there and people will still leave.

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It is my understanding that after 5.2 Command Crates drop rates are determined by the Rank you acquire them, not the rank you open them.

 

I am working with the team to get a full understanding of this interaction. I should have more info Monday but I don't believe you can "game it" by opening them at certain levels. I will let you know.

 

-eric

I'll actually be quite surprised if that is the case once you investigate for the following reasons:

1. The contents of the crate for for the type of items you get (e.g. Tank Gear, DPS gear) is based on your character spec at time of opening not when the crate was acquired. This implies that a tier 1 command crate is a tier 1 command crate and does not store a hidden attribute based on when the crate was acquired.

2. Even if there was going to be a new hidden attribute to new crates then what would be assigned to any command crates that are going to be sitting in people's inventories when 5.2 comes out. Unless that attribute is already there for absolutely no reason in the current system today.

 

This leads me to think that barring some new coding happening before this goes live that all contents of a command crate will be determined when the crate is opened this will include both types of items and level of items using the new formula.

Edited by Margoth
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Have them drop tokens that can be spent at a vendor to purchase gear.

 

That, IMO, would fix all of the issues.

 

YES!!! Generic (not slot-specific) tokens would avoid the duplicate issue, and would also enable easier gearing of alts. Appealing to multiple playstyles.

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So unless the duplicate issue is addressed successfully you can increase the drop rate all you want but if you end up with nothing but duplicate items the frustration will still be there and people will still leave.

 

Yeah, and some folks like me will just let our subs expire, the RNG frustration, especially the dup problem, are not addressed by these 5.2 announcements. For those of you willing to put up with GC grind+RNG - I'm happy the situation is improving. But small, even small and steady, improvements to a fundamentally broken system are just not enough for some of us.

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Starting with Game Update 5.2, drop rates of better quality items (Legendary and Artifact) will get higher as you gain Command Ranks in a given Tier, while lower quality items’ (Premium and Prototype) drop rates will go down. What this means is you are encouraged to continue increasing your Command Rank as your drop rates of more desired items get higher as your Rank increases.
So this really isn't a return to the old loot tables. 5.2 is merely poking a small hole in the Command Crate system for each Ops boss to feed them a fixed loot drop ... while the rest of the game remains pretty much status quo with regard to Galactic Command? Edited by GalacticKegger
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Can I expect MORE assault cannon drops with these changes on all of my non-trooper toons? I only get them about one every second pack. I have 94 troopers, none of them with assault rifles, so I need more assault cannons please. Edited by aerockyul
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So this really isn't a return to the old loot tables. 5.2 is merely poking a small hole in the Command Crate system for each Ops boss to feed them a fixed loot drop ... while the rest of the game remains pretty much status quo with regard to Galactic Command?

 

No, he wrote another post detailing that all bosses will have assigned tokens and 100% drop chances. This post is purely about GC but bosses in operations will drop reliable gear again.

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While increased drop chances sounds nice, I agree it doesn't mean a great deal without some kind of bad luck protection and a way to mitigate receiving duplicate unneeded gear. Getting duplicate gear more often is not going to improve someone's experience with Galactic Command, especially when they never get gear upgrades for other slots.

 

There are a couple of suggestions I would like to make regarding different ways to mitigate this problem:

 

1. Have Command crates drop legacy-bound unassembled gear tokens for all gear slots. This way, if you already have an upgraded piece in that slot, you can send the gear token directly to an alt to redeem for a needed BoP piece of gear (which would also make Galactic Command a LOT more alt-friendly than it is now).

 

2. Grant Unassembled Components when gear from Command Crates are disintegrated instead of CXP. This way, every duplicate gear piece can contribute towards a gear piece which is actually needed instead. (Making Unassembled Components legacy-bound in the bargain would again help to make GC not so terrible for alts.)

 

3. Increase the Command Token drops from Command Crates of all tiers, and let people buy all tiers of gear for a certain amount of Command Tokens alone. This would act as an additional form of insurance against bad luck, to let people buy gear to fix 'holes' on their toon.

Edited by AscendingSky
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While increased drop chances sounds nice, I agree it doesn't mean a great deal without some kind of bad luck protection and a way to mitigate receiving duplicate unneeded gear.

 

You would have to pair it with a smart loot system like WoW has with their legendaries, where it checks your equipped gear and inventory and won't give you any duplicates at all and if you haven't seen one in a while it significantly increases your chances to get one. Just having bad luck protection would still result in many duplicates and that's what we all want to avoid.

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Can I expect MORE assault cannon drops with these changes on all of my non-trooper toons? I only get them about one every second pack. I have 94 troopers, none of them with assault rifles, so I need more assault cannons please.

 

I don't think they plan on changing anything with the cosmetic drops, only the stated gear.

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I don't think they plan on changing anything with the cosmetic drops, only the stated gear.

 

Awesome! I don't even want lightsabers, vibroswords, or even blasters, I just want more and more and more assault cannons in higher frequency than just every second crate that drop for all imp toons and non-trooper pubs. I mean, it's because we all have 73 troopers, right? The population of troopers outnumbers all other classes combined 50 to 1, right? I figured that must be the only reason we get so many assault cannons, over and over and over. Bioware isn't all that concerned that we gear alts very quickly, but by the Force, our troopers will never, ever, EVER lack for the assault cannons we all so desperately need for our legion of troopers.

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Oh! Someone asked me this on Twitter and I wanted to make sure it is captured here as well. The contents of your Command Crates is determined when you open them (think of how it works with Disciplines). So any Tier 1-3 crates you have prior to 5.2 will have the adjusted drop rates if you open them after 5.2 goes live.

 

-eric

 

This is so much less complicated than crystals. Have I been lied too?

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No, he wrote another post detailing that all bosses will have assigned tokens and 100% drop chances. This post is purely about GC but bosses in operations will drop reliable gear again.
I shall look for that post then. Any idea where to start? Edited by GalacticKegger
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I shall look for that post then. Any idea where to start?

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=916137

 

This is the post. Eric is the original poster so read the first post and make sure you read at least the first AND second change he describes.

 

Below that in spoiler tags he shows you the list of which boss drops what but I think that is a provisory list so it may be adjusted still.

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Awesome! I don't even want lightsabers, vibroswords, or even blasters, I just want more and more and more assault cannons in higher frequency than just every second crate that drop for all imp toons and non-trooper pubs. I mean, it's because we all have 73 troopers, right? The population of troopers outnumbers all other classes combined 50 to 1, right? I figured that must be the only reason we get so many assault cannons, over and over and over. Bioware isn't all that concerned that we gear alts very quickly, but by the Force, our troopers will never, ever, EVER lack for the assault cannons we all so desperately need for our legion of troopers.

 

Orange weapons i got in my sin, my jugg and sentinel (very few levels this last one):

 

(Sniper Rifles>Assault Cannons)>>>Blaster Rifles>Pistols Only a couple of Lightsabers/Saberstaffs.

 

The two AC (out of 16) that have UNIQUE main hand get the most drops, by LARGE margin. Light Sabers that is used by SIX (2 even double) ACs, gets the least.

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http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=916137

 

This is the post. Eric is the original poster so read the first post and make sure you read at least the first AND second change he describes.

 

Below that in spoiler tags he shows you the list of which boss drops what but I think that is a provisory list so it may be adjusted still.

Thanks! But the only boss drops mentioned were Ops boss drops. What about leveling and elder game bosses in Heroics, Flashpoints, Hard Modes and Uprisings? If they aren't included in the new program then 5.2 really isn't a return to the old loot tables, but merely poking a small hole in the Command Crate system for each Ops boss to feed them a fixed loot drop. Edited by GalacticKegger
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Thanks! But the only boss drops mentioned were Ops boss drops. What about leveling and elder game bosses in Heroics, Flashpoints, Hard Modes and Uprisings? If they aren't included in the new program then 5.2 really isn't a return to the old loot tables, but merely poking a small hole in the Command Crate system for each Ops boss to feed them a fixed loot drop.

 

Uprisings are something new, created to support the GC reward system. There is no reason to include loot tables they never had before. Perhaps Master mode will warrant some better rewards but the real problem with this side of GC is the low drop rate of useful gear from the GC crates. Some of the changes proposed with gear quality also increasing as you gain GC levels should at least help.

 

Heroics...are you kidding me? Heroics are for farming credits, leveling gear and getting those alliance crates. They give enough of a reward for what it takes to do them. There are no real bosses in there, just named champions at best.

 

Flash Points. They already lost their rewards many years ago. They didn't lose anything real with 5.0 Perhaps you are referring to those poorly itemised crappy gear pieces, but crafting similar gear is 10 times easier so I don't really see that as a GC issue. However, I do think that Master Level FPs or HM FPs as we used to know them, do deserve some attention. There are fights in there that rival some operation bosses fights easily and I've felt for about 3 years now that their rewards should be better. Unassembled components would be an idea.

 

But please realise that GC didn't create most of the problems you cite. Most of these existed beforehand. What got hit really hard was gearing through operations. That's being fixed here and that's a big issue for a lot of players who complained also when 5.0 hit.

 

I guess you have different priorities but I cannot imagine you being happy in 4.0 either if these are your concerns.

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Uprisings are something new, created to support the GC reward system. There is no reason to include loot tables they never had before. Perhaps Master mode will warrant some better rewards but the real problem with this side of GC is the low drop rate of useful gear from the GC crates. Some of the changes proposed with gear quality also increasing as you gain GC levels should at least help.

 

Heroics...are you kidding me? Heroics are for farming credits, leveling gear and getting those alliance crates. They give enough of a reward for what it takes to do them. There are no real bosses in there, just named champions at best.

 

Flash Points. They already lost their rewards many years ago. They didn't lose anything real with 5.0 Perhaps you are referring to those poorly itemised crappy gear pieces, but crafting similar gear is 10 times easier so I don't really see that as a GC issue. However, I do think that Master Level FPs or HM FPs as we used to know them, do deserve some attention. There are fights in there that rival some operation bosses fights easily and I've felt for about 3 years now that their rewards should be better. Unassembled components would be an idea.

 

But please realise that GC didn't create most of the problems you cite. Most of these existed beforehand. What got hit really hard was gearing through operations. That's being fixed here and that's a big issue for a lot of players who complained also when 5.0 hit.

 

I guess you have different priorities but I cannot imagine you being happy in 4.0 either if these are your concerns.

The problems I cite did not exist prior to 4.0 (before Alliance crates, before flashpoints were pulled from the leveling planets and turned into solo story jokes). But they do exist now. That's all that needs to be clarified because it really is that simple. Now what needs to be identified is what changed between then and now that created the problems I've cited, and what has to happen to fix them. That too is simple and continues to be described in great detail by many long-time players who honestly just want their SWTRO MMO back. Not just Ops loot ... their entire MMO.

 

Honestly I'm as sick and tired of exposing how screwed up our SWTOR MMO has become as you are sick and tired of hearing about it. Which really is too bad for both of us.

Edited by GalacticKegger
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The problems I cite did not exist prior to 4.0. but they do exist now. That's all that needs to be clarified because it really is that simple. Now what needs to be identified is what changed between then and now that created the problems I've cited, and what has to happen to fix them. That too is simple and continues to be described in great detail by long-time players who honestly just want their SWTRO MMORPG back. Not just Ops ... their entire MMO.

 

Honestly I'm as sick and tired of exposing how screwed up our SWTOR MMO has become as you are sick and tired of hearing about it. Which really is too bad for both of us.

 

I was one of the biggest complainers here on the forum in November and December. People here can confirm that I posted a lot AGAINST RNG gearing in 5.0 and people trying to put words in my mouth as well. It is my opinion that GC gearing was the worst thing Bioware has done to SWTOR. But I have been here from the start of this game and some problems did exist already before 5.0, just in a different form but they were there. I am just asking you to separate the issues.

 

Let's just take one item from your list and please explain to me exactly what 5.0 did to heroics. That's the one that surprised me the most in your list. What, in your view, did 5.0 do to heroics that you want back?

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I was one of the biggest complainers here on the forum in November and December. People here can confirm that I posted a lot AGAINST RNG gearing in 5.0 and people trying to put words in my mouth as well. It is my opinion that GC gearing was the worst thing Bioware has done to SWTOR. But I have been here from the start of this game and some problems did exist already before 5.0, just in a different form but they were there. I am just asking you to separate the issues.

 

Let's just take one item from your list and please explain to me exactly what 5.0 did to heroics. That's the one that surprised me the most in your list. What, in your view, did 5.0 do to heroics that you want back?

It wasn't what 5.0 did to heroics, it's what 4.0 did to heroics (and the rest of the game) before it ...

 

Historically (circa 2014) ... it all started with the leveling planets where PvE characters leveled up in tiers on each planet: open world exploration + class / companion story & planet missions → planet heroic 2s → planet heroic 4s → planet flashpoint. Players who preferred to focus on solo story could level through that while players who enjoyed leveling through challenging group content could do that as well. There was plenty of game there to accommodate both.

 

Each planet had its own mini-elder game (H2s and H4s) and mini-end game (flashpoints). Group players (including 2 players + companions) would complete each planet's elder and end games before going to the next planet, while solo players would usually play up through elder game, go to the next planet for a few levels and come back to run the previous planet's end game flashpoint solo with a companion once they upgraded their gear. Running flashpoints solo at 5-7 levels above the flashpoint's listed level range provided solo players with a challenge similar to what group players experienced when they were running it level appropriate, and still provided drops they could use because the flashpoint boss loot tables and comm system were balanced to carry a player through to the next planet's elder game.

 

We similarly progressed through HMs and bonus or heroic zones like BH, SX, CZ and Ziost to reach PvE end game ... Operations: first normal, then HM then NiM. We progressed through content difficulty levels, with item levels and cleared end boss achievements being the gateway to more difficult content ... not some misplaced RPG-centric and promiscuously-focused XP grind with a purely lottery-based gear system.

 

OP farming Heroics, Flashpoints, HMs and Operations for appearance customs was its own entire ecosystem. The more rare the item was the more enticing the farm runs were. Our guild devoted entire evenings to it.

 

4.0 destroyed all of this when the planets were level sync'd, planet H2s and H4s were recycled into elder game H2 dailies, planet Flashpoints were relocated to the end of vanilla story chapters and made into solo-mode droid-dominant jokes, group flashpoint variants were bolstered and recycled as elder game, HMs were bolstered and recycled as elder game, operations were bolstered and recycled as end game ... and all but the operations loot tables were replaced with Alliance crates.

 

Leveling group play was essentially removed from the game.

 

Why? 4.0's exclusive focus on solo-only chapter story, which (for budget-cut reasons I assume) resulted in a complete reliance on recycled content for elder and end games. The system that was created to support it? The Alliance system, which replaced practically every loot table in the game (outside of Ops) with Alliance crates. Every planet in the game was level syn'd and repurposed for it. Bioware spun the whole thing as making the planets relevant again. Pro tip: they were never irrelevant. It was merely marketed that way to divert attention away from the real problem ... no new group content resulting in a reliance on recycled content for it.

 

No sir. This whole mess pre-dates 5.0.

 

Taking a further step back in time ... even before all of this happened, 3.0 Shadow of Revan's shift to solo-only story dialogue interactions was meant to condition us for 4.0's shifting the game's future expansion focus to solo-only story chapters. 4.0's Alliance crates replacing the leveling game's loot tables were meant to condition us for 5.0's Command Crates replacing the rest of the game's loot tables. These are not coincidences.

 

Where this game is now is the result of a fundamental and premiditated change that started the moment Dallas Dickinson and Daniel Erickson were sent packing because they disagreed with a change in the game's focus away from playable content to buoying the Cartel Market - and replaced by spineless yes men Ben Irving and Charles Boyd.

 

What is happening right now, from the new Operation boss announcement to changes with Galactic Command, is all being made up on the fly because their management team wasn't prepared for it ... or us.

Edited by GalacticKegger
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