Bioware Please Merge Servers

[kodrac]

Actually, the people that don't respect his opinion are the ones that constantly make these server merge threads. I can only speak for myself, but I am tired of the requests for server merges. If I don't like the server population on the server I am on I will take the responsibility to move to a more populated server based on my risk / reward standards. I certainly don't want BW to force server merges and force me to go somewhere I don't want to go and I don't want to deal with all the negative aspects of the merger like name loss. I have already lost names due to server merges in the past and I am still not happy that I lost those names.

 

If you don't like your server population, just transfer to the server of your choice. Stop trying to negatively impact me.

 

You must have me confused with someone else. I'm in the "no merger please" camp. I'm just tired of seeing our self-appointed representative act like an a-hole and push anyone with an opinion away from the conversation.

[RudeDog]

 

>> Shadowlands and Jedi Convenant: these servers are still active and thriving, even at lower player activity levels. The reasons they continue to have healthy economies, and player activities, is most likely long term residents, and less reliance on random grouping mechanics. In other words, they are more a combination of players who are less reliant on random grouping and/or get their group needs met within their guild and/or circle of friends. There are advocates for merging these two servers, but it does not appear to be advocacy by actual members of these servers, so it's some form of insurgent action by players who do not even play on these servers.

 

Well written post. I am on JC and am happy there (well, as happy as I can be given the piss poor state of how the devs manage this game by breaking things that work, not fixing broken things, and not updating content). I have no desire to move to Harbinger or wherever the @#%!. I get pops at decent intervals when I want to PVP, I can group with my guild when I want to do group activities, and I can solo when I want to solo. More importantly I can keep my names and strongholds intact...

[casirabit]

I just wanted to say that it has been my experience that while I am sure someone can make some kind of half-way decent argument against server mergers there really hasn't been much of an argument so far in so far as there has been trash-talking.

 

The trash-talking that is used against the server merge argument usually involves:

 

* The Straw man debate tactic (i.e. it's ok with you for people's guild ships to be nuked)

 

* Personal attacks (i.e. you're too cheap to do a server transfer)

 

* Psycho-babble (if you want to see a server merge you have a psychological disorder, which are described in half-assed psychological jargon, one of the earlier posts has a variation of this where the person who is in favor of a merger is basically slandered as a narcissist)

 

 

As I stated in another forum, there is a reason people from Ebon Hawk do not want to be merged. We are a roleplaying server first and foremost since the beginning. I for one do not want to merged with Harbinger, a non roleplay server due to the fact that 90% of pve servers do not respect roleplayers and will tell us that this is a pve server, not a roleplay server so stop your roleplaying. This is something you cannot put people on ignore for like you can for general chat.

 

While some servers need merged not all need merged and that is the problem with these type of forums. People say merge all the servers and 9 times out of 10 they are pushing for Harbinger. Ebon Hawk is doing well and it is a very respectful server. We don't expect everyone to roleplay but we do expect you to be respectful to our playstyle, which is not something that will happen when you merge a roleplay server with a pve server. Roleplayer then gets griefed when they try to roleplay.

 

Some roleplayers, I know my guild and friends do, even roleplay in flashpoints or operations and the people that we have grouped with do not have a problem with that as long as we get the flashpoint/operation done. Try that on a server like Harbinger and we would be told to stop it as it is not welcome.

[Ratajack]

Say all you wan't I took a stroll going around the North American Servers between 11:30 and 12 EST. Thursday night has usually been a pretty active gaming night as people usually have a less hectic Friday than the rest of the week.

 

People numbers on Fleet:

1. Shadowlands 60'ish

2. Jedi Covenent 50'ish

3. Ebon Hawk 140's

4. Harbinger 220+

 

Now we all know since 5.0 came around Odessen wasn't the hub it was in 4.0 so Fleet is a pretty good barometer of what going on in. I was kind of surprised to see such a huge drop in 1 &2 and there was nobody forming groups on fleet at either of them. This time last year 1 & 2 had 40% more people on them.

 

This time last year, Galactic command did not exist. In addition, there is a 350% CXP boost event going on that will end soon. Much of the CXP "grinding" can be done solo.

 

While server populations have dropped, how much of the "lack of players on fleet" can be attributed to players actually playing the game and "grinding CXP" or other activities, whether in pre-made groups or solo?

 

Now, I am not saying that when this CXP boost event ends that fleet will magically pop back up to hundreds of people, but I don't think one can look at only fleet numbers and say that servers need to be merged.

 

Let's also not forget that some people do not to use the LFG tool or even spam fleet chat to form groups, preferring to do group content with friends and guild mates.

[RudeDog]

You must have me confused with someone else. I'm in the "no merger please" camp. I'm just tired of seeing our self-appointed representative act like an a-hole and push anyone with an opinion away from the conversation.

 

Sorry, when I wrote "If you don't like your server population, just transfer to the server of your choice. Stop trying to negatively impact me" I wasn't addressing you specifically. I was really trying to address the advocates of the server merges who keep requesting mergers over and over and over and over. I understand you are against the server merges, but I tend to think Ratajack is right to call these guys out. These server merge advocates keep asking for server merges and Ratajack lays out the well reasoned case against the merges and then the merger advocates keep whining about merges. It's to bad because there are several posters in the merge server camp that I tend to respect and think generally make well reasoned arguments until it comes to this merge issue.

[RudeDog]

This time last year, Galactic command did not exist. In addition, there is a 350% CXP boost event going on that will end soon. Much of the CXP "grinding" can be done solo.

 

While server populations have dropped, how much of the "lack of players on fleet" can be attributed to players actually playing the game and "grinding CXP" or other activities, whether in pre-made groups or solo?

 

Now, I am not saying that when this CXP boost event ends that fleet will magically pop back up to hundreds of people, but I don't think one can look at only fleet numbers and say that servers need to be merged.

 

Let's also not forget that some people do not to use the LFG tool or even spam fleet chat to form groups, preferring to do group content with friends and guild mates.

 

Fleet as a barometer of server population seems limited to me. I only pop into fleet when I absolutely have to. Otherwise I hang on my ship or stronghold if I'm not actively playing. If I could put a PVP terminal in my stronghold I doubt I would ever go back to fleet except for the BBA contracts or to get companion gifts.

[RobertFKennedyUS]

As I stated in another forum, there is a reason people from Ebon Hawk do not want to be merged. We are a roleplaying server first and foremost since the beginning. I for one do not want to merged with Harbinger, a non roleplay server due to the fact that 90% of pve servers do not respect roleplayers and will tell us that this is a pve server, not a roleplay server so stop your roleplaying. This is something you cannot put people on ignore for like you can for general chat.

 

While some servers need merged not all need merged and that is the problem with these type of forums. People say merge all the servers and 9 times out of 10 they are pushing for Harbinger. Ebon Hawk is doing well and it is a very respectful server. We don't expect everyone to roleplay but we do expect you to be respectful to our playstyle, which is not something that will happen when you merge a roleplay server with a pve server. Roleplayer then gets griefed when they try to roleplay.

 

Some roleplayers, I know my guild and friends do, even roleplay in flashpoints or operations and the people that we have grouped with do not have a problem with that as long as we get the flashpoint/operation done. Try that on a server like Harbinger and we would be told to stop it as it is not welcome.

 

I never proposed EH and Harb be merged.

[RobertFKennedyUS]

>> Shadowlands and Jedi Convenant: these servers are still active and thriving, even at lower player activity levels. The reasons they continue to have healthy economies, and player activities, is most likely long term residents, and less reliance on random grouping mechanics. In other words, they are more a combination of players who are less reliant on random grouping and/or get their group needs met within their guild and/or circle of friends. There are advocates for merging these two servers, but it does not appear to be advocacy by actual members of these servers, so it's some form of insurgent action by players who do not even play on these servers.

 

These servers are more like slowly dying than thriving. Fleet numbers are down, supplies of hypercrates on the markets are down, group activity is down, q times are broken. I played on JC for 3 years, then left for Harb. My raid team left with me to Harb. SL is even worse. They lost several major NiM guilds to Harb.

 

Those are just symptoms of the problem though. It's not about Harb gaining at JC and SL's expense. It's about wow it sucks so bad here, a lot of people are just going to quit the game.

[Ratajack]

I just wanted to say that it has been my experience that while I am sure someone can make some kind of half-way decent argument against server mergers there really hasn't been much of an argument so far in so far as there has been trash-talking.

 

The trash-talking that is used against the server merge argument usually involves:

 

* The Straw man debate tactic (i.e. it's ok with you for people's guild ships to be nuked)

 

* Personal attacks (i.e. you're too cheap to do a server transfer)

 

* Psycho-babble (if you want to see a server merge you have a psychological disorder, which are described in half-assed psychological jargon, one of the earlier posts has a variation of this where the person who is in favor of a merger is basically slandered as a narcissist)

 

How do you propose that BW handle the "nuking" of guilds and guild assets if they merge servers, not to mention the personal issues, such as legacy storage vaults and the contents thereof, naming conflicts, multiple legacies across multiple servers with a total number of characters exceeding the single server limit, multiple legacy storage vaults across multiple servers with total contents exceeding the number of unlocked vault tabs, etc.?

 

You can say "straw man arguments" all you want, but they are real, valid concerns that need to be addressed.

[Talon_strikes]

>> Shadowlands and Jedi Convenant: these servers are still active and thriving, even at lower player activity levels. The reasons they continue to have healthy economies, and player activities, is most likely long term residents, and less reliance on random grouping mechanics. In other words, they are more a combination of players who are less reliant on random grouping and/or get their group needs met within their guild and/or circle of friends. There are advocates for merging these two servers, but it does not appear to be advocacy by actual members of these servers, so it's some form of insurgent action by players who do not even play on these servers.

Stop spreading misinformation.

 

lays out the well reasoned case against the merges

If by that you mean trolling, then I agree with you

Edited April 8, 2017 by Talon_strikes

[Icykill_]

As I stated in another forum, there is a reason people from Ebon Hawk do not want to be merged. We are a roleplaying server first and foremost since the beginning. I for one do not want to merged with Harbinger, a non roleplay server due to the fact that 90% of pve servers do not respect roleplayers and will tell us that this is a pve server, not a roleplay server so stop your roleplaying. This is something you cannot put people on ignore for like you can for general chat.

 

While some servers need merged not all need merged and that is the problem with these type of forums. People say merge all the servers and 9 times out of 10 they are pushing for Harbinger. Ebon Hawk is doing well and it is a very respectful server. We don't expect everyone to roleplay but we do expect you to be respectful to our playstyle, which is not something that will happen when you merge a roleplay server with a pve server. Roleplayer then gets griefed when they try to roleplay.

 

Some roleplayers, I know my guild and friends do, even roleplay in flashpoints or operations and the people that we have grouped with do not have a problem with that as long as we get the flashpoint/operation done. Try that on a server like Harbinger and we would be told to stop it as it is not welcome.

 

If they were to merge and I'm still not 100% convinced that is the first option to start with to help populations and the empty server perception. I think they could start by doing others things I've listed about halfway through this thread. But time might be running out on trying those if they leave it too long.

Anyway what I wanted to say is if they were to merge server, I do not think they would merge east and west coast together as this would have a major impact on international players. (I've also previously said why)

The optimal situation if mergers happened, would be regional servers. 1 west coast, 1 east coast and 1-2 EU (not sure how many for EU). On my recent tour of the different servers in the US and 1 EU, some of which I documented and some which I didn't, I saw a big difference in fleet populations and pvp queue times (it's the only group content I do, so I only based it on that). Most of the low population servers had no pvp pop and as little as 10 people on the fleet.

The servers (other then Harbinger) with more people than 100 on the fleet actually had pvp pops and surprisingly most were rep vs rep. Ebon Hawk seemed to be a good server and I did get some pvp there. I know you are an RP player and maybe don't pvp that much or at all, but I can tell you that the players are pretty good, especially with tactics.

What didn't surprise me is they still talk smack and troll other players and I would say it was on the same lvl that Harbinger pvpers do. This is something that all pvp seems to have on any server I've visited and had matches. What did surprise me was it was reps doing it. On Harbinger it's mainly the imps that do that, most reps don't or the few that do are Imp rerolls and people just ignore them so they stop when no one responds. I find the reps in Harbinger pvp quite friendly and it seems lots are RP people.

I liked my visit to Ebon Hawk, but it also has its fair share of toxic people. The difference is the population is smaller than Harbinger, so there aren't as many, but I think the percentages are close.

[Icykill_]

i dont want the pvp crowd on our server tho. they are usually very toxic.

 

I might have missed this from a previous post you made, but what server are you on?

[Icykill_]

Sorry, when I wrote "If you don't like your server population, just transfer to the server of your choice. Stop trying to negatively impact me" I wasn't addressing you specifically. I was really trying to address the advocates of the server merges who keep requesting mergers over and over and over and over. I understand you are against the server merges, but I tend to think Ratajack is right to call these guys out. These server merge advocates keep asking for server merges and Ratajack lays out the well reasoned case against the merges and then the merger advocates keep whining about merges. It's to bad because there are several posters in the merge server camp that I tend to respect and think generally make well reasoned arguments until it comes to this merge issue.

 

It's not that he's against it or passionate about preserving people's current experience, it's the way he goes about it.

[Machinder]

You're comparing fleet populations of East Coast servers at a time when people start going to bed against prime time West Coast 9pm server time. A more accurate comparison would be 9pm EST East Coast server time vs 9pm PST West Coast server time.

 

 

Say all you wan't I took a stroll going around the North American Servers between 11:30 and 12 EST. Thursday night has usually been a pretty active gaming night as people usually have a less hectic Friday than the rest of the week.

 

People numbers on Fleet:

1. Shadowlands 60'ish

2. Jedi Covenent 50'ish

3. Ebon Hawk 140's

4. Harbinger 220+

 

Now we all know since 5.0 came around Odessen wasn't the hub it was in 4.0 so Fleet is a pretty good barometer of what going on in. I was kind of surprised to see such a huge drop in 1 &2 and there was nobody forming groups on fleet at either of them. This time last year 1 & 2 had 40% more people on them.

Edited April 8, 2017 by Machinder

[RobertFKennedyUS]

How do you propose that BW handle the "nuking" of guilds and guild assets if they merge servers, not to mention the personal issues, such as legacy storage vaults and the contents thereof, naming conflicts, multiple legacies across multiple servers with a total number of characters exceeding the single server limit, multiple legacy storage vaults across multiple servers with total contents exceeding the number of unlocked vault tabs, etc.?

 

You can say "straw man arguments" all you want, but they are real, valid concerns that need to be addressed.

 

Straw man argument. It's sad that even after I linked a definition of the term you still don't grasp it. I don't know if it's actual physical youth, dishonesty or just ineptitude in your replies.

Edited April 8, 2017 by RobertFKennedyUS

[CrazyCT]

Isn't a strawman argument picking something else, just to deflect away from actually having to argue against the actual point? Kinda like arguing against someone's knowledge of the term "strawman argument", instead addressing their concerns?

 

There's a distinct smell of iron, here.

Edited April 8, 2017 by CrazyCT

[Andryah]

Isn't a strawman argument picking something else, just to deflect away from actually having to argue against the actual point? Kinda like arguing against someone's knowledge of the term "strawman argument", instead addressing their concerns?

 

There's a distinct smell of iron, here.

 

Yep.. not to mention he completely ignores the very valid concerns presented by Ratajack.

 

How guilds are currently not handled in transfers/merges IS A REAL ISSUE to many players, particularly players who lived through it during the last great sever merges.. which took a heavy toll on some guilds in terms of screwing things up.

 

The studio putting the decision to move in the players hands through the transfer system puts the responsibility for dealing with the issues of guilds on the transferring player, which is not right in my view... but IS very indicative of why some players do not want to see forced merges as that would really exacerbate the problem by making it forced rather then by informed decision on the part of the player(s).

 

My entire guild moved servers last year.. and it was painful even though we had it planned down to the smallest details. But we made the choice and we accepted the consequences of our choice and took responsibility to deal with it. If we have been forced to move against our choosing, it would be a big issue and probably would cause an otherwise long stable guild to fracture.

 

Anyone that simply ignores the fact that server merges do not properly address guild asset moves and guild integrity IS A REAL ISSUE to players that put importance on their guild as part of their game play. Of course this is of no concern to guild-less nomads who just want more cannon fodder by forced importation at their disposal.

Edited April 8, 2017 by Andryah

[RobertFKennedyUS]

Isn't a strawman argument picking something else, just to deflect away from actually having to argue against the actual point? Kinda like arguing against someone's knowledge of the term "strawman argument", instead addressing their concerns?

 

There's a distinct smell of iron, here.

 

Perhaps you should try to actually look up the term rather than to speculate on an incorrect and ignorant guess of what the term actually means.

 

You should also look up irony, it's not "iron."

Edited April 8, 2017 by RobertFKennedyUS

[RobertFKennedyUS]

Yep.. not to mention he completely ignores the very valid concerns presented by Ratajack.

...Anyone that simply ignores the fact that server merges do not properly address guild asset moves and guild integrity IS A REAL ISSUE to players that put importance on their guild as part of their game play. Of course this is of no concern to guild-less nomads who just want more cannon fodder by forced importation at their disposal.

 

 

They're not valid at all and you ignore that there is no need to pay heed to a concern (even if valid) if it is packaged in obnoxious ineptitude or dishonesty.

 

People who choose to lie about what others say only show that they have as little character as they do intelligence to analyze a situation and advance their opinions of it.

Edited April 8, 2017 by RobertFKennedyUS

[Andryah]

Perhaps you should try to actually look up the term rather than to speculate on an incorrect and ignorant guess of what the term actually means.

 

And the word is irony, not "iron."

 

Rather then actually responding to valid concerns by Ratajack about impact to guilds.. you completely ignore it and change the topic to attacking him for allegedly (a wrong allegation in my view) acussing him of strawmaning.... which is a form of strawman itself.

 

Hence ironic hypocrisy demonstration in my view. You could at least respond on topic rather then go off on a tangent that is completely off topic. If you disagree, then fine.. disagree and explain why you disagree.

Edited April 8, 2017 by Andryah

[Andryah]

They're not valid at all and you ignore that there is no need to pay heed to a concern (even if valid) if it is packaged in obnoxious ineptitude or dishonesty.

 

I see.. so the concerns that some players do have and have expressed in these merge server threads about the forced disintegration of guilds and their assets in order to force move said guild to a new server is not valid?

 

If you really feel that way, it shows a complete lack of regard for different players concerns, and as such it questions why any of us should give 2 spits what your concerns are. You reap what you sow.

 

And with that... off to /ignore for you as you contribute nothing constructive to the discussion.

Edited April 8, 2017 by Andryah

[RobertFKennedyUS]

Rather then actually responding to valid concerns by Ratajack about impact to guilds.. you completely ignore it and change the topic to attacking him for allegedly (and wrongly) acussing him of strawmaning.... which is a form of strawman itself.

 

Hence ironic hypocrisy demonstration in my view. You could at least respond on topic rather then go off on a tangent that is completely off topic. If you disagree, then fine.. disagree and explain why you disagree.

 

You've made many incorrect statements:

 

* Rata's concerns are worthless, not valid. Also, I've said given that he packaged said concerns ineptly or dishonestly, that is what I chose to address.

 

* You are further incorrect to claim that he is not a serial abuser of the the straw man debate tactic.

 

* You are incorrect to say that I changed the subject to the straw man debate tactic when he makes it the subject of the debate by using it.

 

* You are incorrect to state that changing the subject is the straw man debate tactic.

 

Given that you don't even understand the meaning of a simple term that has already been provided, I think that says a lot about the value of any of your beliefs. I wouldn't call your comment irony or hypocrisy, just a demonstration of failure and foolishness.

[RobertFKennedyUS]

I see.. so the concerns that some players do have and have expressed in these merge server threads about the forced disintegration of guilds and their assets in order to force move said guild to a new server is not valid?

 

If you really feel that way, it shows a complete lack of regard for different players concerns, and as such it questions why any of us should give 2 spits what your concerns are. You reap what you sow.

 

And with that... off to /ignore for you as you contribute nothing constructive to the discussion.

 

Straw man argument, as predicted. A reflection of yourself and the value of your opinion that you resort to the dishonest and childish tactic. Good riddance.

Edited April 8, 2017 by RobertFKennedyUS

[forestguard]

You've made many incorrect statements:

 

* Rata's concerns are worthless, not valid. Also, I've said given that he packaged said concerns ineptly or dishonestly, that is what I chose to address.

 

* You are further incorrect to claim that he is not a serial abuser of the the straw man debate tactic.

 

* You are incorrect to say that I changed the subject to the straw man debate tactic when he makes it the subject of the debate by using it.

 

* You are incorrect to state that changing the subject is the straw man debate tactic.

 

Given that you don't even understand the meaning of a simple term that has already been provided, I think that says a lot about the value of any of your beliefs. I wouldn't call your comment irony or hypocrisy, just a demonstration of failure and foolishness.

 

Even if they were packaged poorly, they're still valid concerns, just like population size is a valid concern despite the ways some people bring it up. They are issues that could drive players away and, from how it sounds, did so the last time they merged servers. A lot more to lose this time around.

 

And you're right, you didn't strawman. You went ad hominem. Instead of responding appropriately to his points, you resorted to attacking him, focusing on how he presents his points. You made your argument more about his character as opposed to the actual concerns that were raised.

 

As for the idea of actual merges, the question will be raised again: what good would it do to force players to merge and potentially lose all their stuff? All the hard work on building the guild? Gone. That pretty guildship? Gone, and good luck getting the frameworks to rebuild it. Rpers? Well, you won't be able rp on the fleet as often without being told to leave.

 

If Bioware can do it properly, and also provide a place for RPers? That'd be great. But there has been no indication that they can and they probably don't want to suffer that headache again, nor force that nightmare on their players again. If they say they are coming, then they're coming and we'll have to accept the consequences. Maybe they want to make sure they can do it right. I don't know. I know I don't want thrown back into the masses from Ebon Hawk, as I like to RP in different ways and don't want to be told I can't do that (I was questioned about that on Shadowlands once before I moved). Do I think something needs done for the near-empty servers so that newer players don't end up stuck there alone? Yeah, but the same issues apply (guilds, SHs, guild flagship, etc). Less get impacted, but it's still a problem that should be addressed as best as possible and not disregarded as worthless or invalid.

[RobertFKennedyUS]

Even if they were packaged poorly, they're still valid concerns, just like population size is a valid concern despite the ways some people bring it up. They are issues that could drive players away and, from how it sounds, did so the last time they merged servers. A lot more to lose this time around.

 

They were not packaged poorly, they were packaged foolishly and dishonestly. The concerns are not valid. They're not even concerns actually, some of it is just fiction. and honestly the fact that the so-called concerns are asked on page 55 of this thread shows how ineffective the poster's comments are.

 

And you're right, you didn't strawman. You went ad hominem. Instead of responding appropriately to his points, you resorted to attacking him, focusing on how he presents his points. You made your argument more about his character as opposed to the actual concerns that were raised.

 

A misleading and ignorant characterization. I responded appropriately to what you call his "points." To say that I attacked him is one-sided given that he put his points inside of a foolish comment whereby he flubbed what a straw man argument is. Also to call that my argument is foolish, I made my arguments long ago. The fact that it took this person to page 55 kind of proves my point of how much rubbish he posts.

 

Rpers? Well, you won't be able rp on the fleet as often without being told to leave.

 

Wouldn't be complete without the straw man argument.

 

Less get impacted, but it's still a problem that should be addressed as best as possible and not disregarded as worthless or invalid.

 

It shouldn't even be a problem. It shouldn't occur. It's not really a debatable issue and really a person would have to be quite daft to see it as one.

 

As for the other aspect of what you say, it is also rather daft that you fail to distinguish between the actual subject and the nonsense that the poster I responded to attached to discussion of the subject.

Edited April 9, 2017 by RobertFKennedyUS