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ENVISIONocity

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I get your point, and I'm a casual solo player for the most part myself, but flipping it the other way, if the last 2 years had only delivered new ops and warzones, with 3 or 4 heroics that took us maybe an hour to do alone, I'd be unhappy. So I can see where those who prefer to primarily team up for group content are a bit justified in their outrage.

Oh, for sure, and I agree!

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A lot of people are stuck on the idea they need the best gear because they still think they are playing a real mmo.

 

In a real mmo, you need gear to further your progress in the game and to view the new content that is put out. Not gearing leads to a lose of game experience due to not being geared enough for new content patches.

 

In this game, why people care about gear is beyond me. They do not put out content that is a challenge and your able to do the content they put out with a very low level of gear.

 

I have to agree with you, I used to try to get best gear in SWTOR, but now I find that this 230 stuff that drops from command packs (and even 228) is good enough, especially on alts :)

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I never even thought of it this way before, but a good point.

 

 

See, I can wrap my head around the issue when you explain it that way. With the specific drops, if I understand this, coming from specific bosses, you knew for sure you'd get what you need from the boss, and just farmed him until they dropped what you needed. While this was RNG, it was an RNG that was limited to specific drops from a set array of items, one of the items dropping every time. Not like the current system where it's been randomized, making it impossible to plan to replay a boss to get an item you need to complete a set.

 

Am I understanding it right?

 

Wow. I'd be really nice if everyone could read this. Here, we have someone who asked a question about a system in the game, a controversial one at that, and has read replies and taken others' opinions into consideration and accepted their viewpoints, even if they don't fit into his particular style of play.

 

Bravo, sir. Bravo.

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There are those who would accuse you of playing the game wrong, and who would accuse the game of being mislabeled as an MMO since it is designed in such a way that you can play the game solo.
Except that it wasn't designed in such a way that you can play them solo. The KotFE and KotET expansions were designed in such a way that you have no choice but to play the game solo. The game being mislabeled as a MMO was no accusation; and two entire expansions ... all 10 levels across 16 chapters ... of nothing but exclusively solo story game play is why. Edited by GalacticKegger
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Except that it wasn't designed in such a way that you can play them solo. The KotFE and KotET expansions were designed in such a way that you have no choice but to play the game solo. The game being mislabeled as a MMO was no accusation; and two entire expansions ... all 10 levels across 16 chapters ... of nothing but exclusively solo story game play is why.

 

Remember when they made HM star fortresses with the intention that you would have to run them with a group? Remember the fallout from people because they couldn't easily solo it and thus change was enforced?

 

I sometimes wonder if the community was the problem with the direction for solo content because anytime they try to do something more purely group focused there is a fallout from the solo community over it.

 

I can guarantee come 5.2 there will be many people complaining how bad it is they don't get special snowflake solo mode of the operation bosses.

 

Hopefully BWA have finally realised they cannot produce content fast enough to appease most of the solo community that complain ( those that don't probably realise they still have 100's of hours worth of solo content yet to do ) and certainly not at a rate that's going to encourage month to month subscriptions. Not like regular, repeatable group content can anyway.

 

The problem they face is maybe it's too late to bring back enough MMO group players to even make the group content feasible to the long term survival of the game.

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Except that it wasn't designed in such a way that you can play them solo. The KotFE and KotET expansions were designed in such a way that you have no choice but to play the game solo. The game being mislabeled as a MMO was no accusation; and two entire expansions ... all 10 levels across 16 chapters ... of nothing but exclusively solo story game play is why.

 

I wasn't aware you could solo Uprisings... oh right those don't count because they're not good enough.

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The game being mislabeled as a MMO was no accusation; and two entire expansions ... all 10 levels across 16 chapters ... of nothing but exclusively solo story game play is why.
I wasn't aware you could solo Uprisings... oh right those don't count because they're not good enough.
Are Uprisings part of the 10 levels across 16 chapters of story we can't play as a group? Because that is clearly what I typed.

 

But in response to Uprisings not being good enough ... no. They aren't. Not for someone who after four years of full flashpoints for advanced small group content expected, well ... full flashpoints - not 10 minute quickies. The biggest Uprising (Trial and Error) will easily fit into one of Blood Hunt's outer chambers, which makes them maybe 1/5th the size and scope of a flashpoint. Should we just accept diminishing content as the new standard from now on?

Edited by GalacticKegger
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Are Uprisings part of the 10 levels across 16 chapters of story we can't play as a group? Because that is clearly what I typed.

 

But in response to Uprisings not being good enough ... no. They aren't. Not for someone who after four years of full flashpoints for advanced small group content expected, well ... full flashpoints - not 10 minute quickies. The biggest Uprising (Trial and Error) will easily fit into one of Blood Hunt's outer chambers, which makes them maybe 1/5th the size and scope of a flashpoint. Should we just accept diminishing content as the new standard from now on?

 

Not to mention all the Uprisings I've been in so far have used recycled maps and recycled boss mechanics. There are Heroic 2 quests in the game more involved, challenging, and creative than the Uprisings. Even Star Fortresses are far superior to Uprisings, because we got a new map (that is constantly rearranged), a new storyline involved in unlocking them, a new companion from each planet's Star Fortress unlock, new mechanics, new decorations, you could do them solo or in a group as you liked, and there were several unlockable achievements with nifty titles and decorations attached to them.

Edited by AscendingSky
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Let me put my 3 credits to the thread.

 

Except the lack of content, real expansion (could even pay for real expansion), new engine and benefits of it (better frame rates, maybe addons, dont forget that addons made wow a very successfull) this game lacks consistent flow in clear direction. Ever since Ben tookover the producer chair, game goes from one direction to another... We are being fed by some total mistakes in terms of pretty much everything and Galactic Casino is the biggest iceberg this game has ever hit from start.

 

What would seriously help this game in terms of gearing is the lowering advantages of higher gear tiers. Imo this game should have clear gearing system. System that would be appealing to both crowds, those that dont want to hunt for gear so badly and those that like that. Best would be if they simply remove the gear from entry lvls, and grant a basic set of gear at lvl cap. Then, to obtain basic set bonus you would just do stuff, system similar to GC byt based on different way. Instead of #rng or endless hunt for drops that you have to roll and win nothing more but 0, we should be given a currency that would allow us to buy items free to our choice. Currency should be given to us from all content. Even heroics. Its just farmable stuff. This set would be an entry stuff for pve progression and pvp. And in my opinion, this set should be craftable, including armorings with set bonuses. Or maybe they should remove the set bonus from armoring and move it to the shell and with that move they could even introduce the new crew skill (also crew skills needs a total redesign imo).

 

Gear tiers should be bumped by 2 points, not 4-6 as are now. With basic set bonus gear you should be able to clear the nims but it would be damn hard, this would be a totally ultimate challange. 2nd tier of gear should make things simpler, but ofc not make things to simple. Values are easly calculateable. With basic basic gear you should be able to attack the hard mode pve content but it would be again something close to ultimate challange.

 

Another thing that is hard to balance and is giving a headace for devs is the legacy system. Yes it does. People farm stuff on multiple characters to achive items, transfere them to another character without any bigger penalty or cost, and can gear up in a matter of days with nearly full sets. However legacy gear is a thing that makes this game unique in some way, but tbh with you, i would love to see it gone. Yes. Gone. If BW wants to make gearing slower, they should look for redoing legacy system, because this is the reason why people are getting absurdly fast with gearing.

 

Another thing is the cartel market. 2nd nest of RNG fest. Imo such practices should be banned from games by law. Its gambling. Different thing is a world drop, and different thing is a rng crate that you buy for a real cash. BW should either focus on very good quality content that you just buy, or remove it from game totally. I would spend some cash on cosmetics tbh, but those are hidden in a rng crate or maybe even in a rng crate in a rng crate (hello grand chance cube).

 

I have plenty of ideas that would help this game, simple stuff, because simple is always better.

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Are Uprisings part of the 10 levels across 16 chapters of story we can't play as a group? Because that is clearly what I typed.

 

Except that it wasn't designed in such a way that you can play them solo. The KotFE and KotET expansions were designed in such a way that you have no choice but to play the game solo. The game being mislabeled as a MMO was no accusation; and two entire expansions ... all 10 levels across 16 chapters ... of nothing but exclusively solo story game play is why.

 

...is what you wrote. Expansions include Uprisings, Star Fortresses and Eternal Championship. They're not "nothing but exclusively solo story game play" as you stated. SF an EC can be soloed but aren't exclusively solo.

 

 

But in response to Uprisings not being good enough ... no. They aren't. Not for someone who after four years of full flashpoints for advanced small group content expected, well ... full flashpoints - not 10 minute quickies. The biggest Uprising (Trial and Error) will easily fit into one of Blood Hunt's outer chambers, which makes them maybe 1/5th the size and scope of a flashpoint. Should we just accept diminishing content as the new standard from now on?

 

Well that sounds like a you problem, not a SWTOR problem. Just because it's "bad" in your opinion does not negate its existence. You can't just pretend it's not there because you don't like it.

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Your posts are enjoyable to read, because I know you're speaking the truth. I was never one to do Operations often but I know that what you're saying is right. Now I'll never do them because of my terrible, randomly provided gear.

 

Keep up what you're saying!

 

#RemoveRNG

 

They are bolstered - it's not gear stopping you doing them.

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They are bolstered - it's not gear stopping you doing them.

 

If all you want to do is see the group content, no, the gear won't matter. (I say this is a mostly solo player). Finding a group is the hurdle for Ops.

 

(I will note, for the record, that all of the 4-man content can be 2-manned with a Trinity squad with basic endgame gear and average skill levels, though some of it is harder than other parts. And I'd recommend having the tank be a human, and the healer their companion).

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Well that sounds like a you problem, not a SWTOR problem. Just because it's "bad" in your opinion does not negate its existence. You can't just pretend it's not there because you don't like it.
Huh? Please read first ... thank you. The word "bad" was never used ... only "not enough". Though I now understand where the defensive conflict is coming from, particularly when the problem always resides with someone who does not share your views. Very well then. It seems my pointing things out creates distress. Therefore I shall cause you no further embarrassment and bid you a good day sir. :) Edited by GalacticKegger
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:sy_havoc: How long does an Operation take to complete for those of you who have been weighing in on this? How long for a group that knows what they're doing; how long for a mix of adept, experienced players with players they might have to carry through parts (stages?) of the Operation?

 

Curious since I have never been in one myself.

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That depends of the players involved and about which particular operation we are talking.

Most boss fights have something around 10 to 15 minutes length, then there is trash in between that takes some time too. Although that depends a bit on the damage the group can poivide. More big hitting DPS > bosses and trash dieing faster. So for example an operation with four bosses is faster than one with seven.

 

Then it depends how disciplined the players are to stay, if it takes longer than they thought, if someone leaves, it may take some time to find a replacement. Before the Loot drops from the later bosses were rarer and therefor there was a motivation to stay until those were at least tried if they weren't there for the fun of raiding.

With Galactic Command reducing this incentive, players may loose patience faster and consider wiping waste of the time they could spend on earning GC elsewhere, that usually breaks up a pickup group.

 

As i paused up until recently, i can only describe how it was pre 5.0 and most of my experiences stem from HC difficulty. Don't know how much impact all those raiders that left the game have, as there are less players to explain mechanics or how much GC motivates players to stay, until they are through or to leave the group as soon as there is a wipe.

 

SM has bolster so gear is no factor and most mechanics are taken out since 4.0, so usually the tanks stand and hold threat, the healers heal and dps just do damage. No need to explain much. Most of the time 4 players knowing what they do can easily compensate for others that don't. A good healer can heal SM alone, a good tank can tank alone and sometimes does more damage than a bad DPS and a good DPS does damage for two.

 

So concerning HC

Case 1.

All players have experience are geared well enough, being in sync about which tactic they want to use, they are fast.

Once we had them clear for the first time back in the 2.0 cycle my raid group could easily finish both Dark Fortress and Dark Palace HC on one evening, meaning in our case two (or sometimes two a a half on a bad day) hours time for both, so around one hour for each. With us usually having a break for smoking, refill drinks, toilet and stuff after the first ops was finished. (Not meaning that you can't afk during trash fights, but of course everyone is needed for the next boss)

If the group is progression through HC they are still practising /wiping here and there, so they may end up raiding for 2 to 3 hours without killing the final boss. But thats progress, step by step until clearing everything. Most groups i know have a raid schedule with 2 to 3 hours per time they come together.

 

Case 2

Running there with a mixed group, either not used to play together, therefor maybe used to different tactics, can be as fast or has some hickups until the group finds to itself, meaning compromises on strategies. If there are players without experience, they need explanations that also take some time, up to 10 min per boss maybe, depending of how throroughly the explanataion is or if it is one of the more complicated fights. Also depending of the role and if the rest of the group would be capable to kill the boss even if the new player dies during the first minute.

Then groups tend tell the player just attack this or there and stay out of dangerous voids. The more the player is needed dps wise for example or to play certain mechanics outside of just healing, dpsimg and tanking, the better the explanation needs to be, thus takes more time and as not everyone is a natural talent, there may be a few wipes to practise before the boss goes down. That can take some time as maybe the try ends fast during the first few minutes or you almost kill him and wipe after 12 minutes.

 

DF+DP HC with this kind of group could take also only 2 hours, but also you could happen to be there maybe four hours without finishing it. But usually some players loose motivation after some time with only wiping, especially if the group can't get to the next phase of a fight or down more health of the boss, when retrying a boss several times, meaning that they aren't getting any better from try to try. Then this boss is the skillcap of this particular group at this moment and at one point it is useless to try again.

 

Case 3.

With a totally unexperienced group it depends if they or one of them prepared by reading guides or watching videos. Then they have a direction of how to do things and just need practise. If they want to figure out what to do themselves it takes much more time and practise.

How much practise then depends of how well they know their own classes and if they manage to meet the minimum requirements to kill the boss.

That can work well with motivated players, who took some time to learn their class before.

Especially SM Ops aren't that hard and the requirements not very high or it can on the other hand degrade into a wipe fest, if no one has any clue about what to do, neither how the operation is meant to be played, nor how to play their class halfways decent. It usually works time until someone throws in the towel, as this often leads to the group breaking up completely, especially if their are strangers to each others.

 

All in all it depends a lot of the players. Someone who knows most of the flashpoint mechanics for example, especially the former heroic ones, will find it easier to learn an operations boss, because there a lot of the mechanics are reused just in new combinations > less time needed for explanations andpractise. Someone who only knows story solo mode with rank 50 heal companion will have hard time because, suddenly he has to pay attention to what he is doing and where he is standing, probably overwhwlmed of everthing going on. Having good dps/healer or tanks with you solves a lot of problem you may face if the group barely manges the minimum as they can avoid wipes by giving more than what is barely needed, while with a group just scratching the minimum any fault by someone could lead to a wipe and retry. > more time needed per boss.

 

Most relaxed scheduled raid groups i know, have raids that take two to three hours. Some come together one evening per week, others two three or more. Although four to five evenings are rare outside ofthose groups that consider themselves as real progression groups cometing for serverfirsts for example. There are few of them left as this competition is somewhat stale when there is only the very same rehashed content for years.

Most gropus just play what ever they manage to finish during their scheduled time and what they have fun with. Finishing the easy ops or wiping at revan for the whole time, what ever they want. With GC though they might concentrate on farming the easy bosses for gear tokens just like the infamous higlighted EV KP runs during the 4.0 cycle. Personally i would not consider that fun, but if it is the only reliable or planable possibillity to get the set gear, well each to his own.

 

Pick up groups also estimate with this amount of time for HC (those harder than EV or KP at least), but if an SM run takes longer than an hour or one and a half i would probably excuse myself from the group, if they aren't a really really really nice bunch.

But its an estimation, it could also go up to four hours or more, just as long as the players or enough of them stay there to try again, the group goes on.

Edited by Khaleijo
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:sy_havoc: How long does an Operation take to complete for those of you who have been weighing in on this? How long for a group that knows what they're doing; how long for a mix of adept, experienced players with players they might have to carry through parts (stages?) of the Operation?

 

Curious since I have never been in one myself.

 

Depends on the operation as some are notably longer than others.

 

For any operation for a new group to it time will depend on if they read mechanics before hand or are having a fun time of working things out themselves ( my preferred way of doing things, far more enjoyable doing it this way with a group of friends ).

 

For groups that know what they are doing EV/KP/DF/DP - 1 hour if that. For a mixed group maybe 1.5 hours top to allow for a few wipes.

 

Rav/ToS - Again about an hour, possibly 1.5 for an experienced group. For a mixed group probably 1 - 2 hours time frame for Rav depending on wipes but ToS can get really ugly with inexperienced players and can easily go 2 hours+ if you finish at all. Likewise it can smoothly of course.

 

EC/TFB - 1.5 to 2 hours for an experienced group, 2 hours+ for inexperienced. EC is notably difficult so like ToS can go longer to the point of not finishing.

 

SnV is a really long operation so 2 - 2.5 hours for an experienced group, longer for inexperienced.

 

Of course YMMV - everyone has differing levels of experience and experiences with pugs and how easily it is to carry people through.

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:sy_havoc: How long does an Operation take to complete for those of you who have been weighing in on this? How long for a group that knows what they're doing; how long for a mix of adept, experienced players with players they might have to carry through parts (stages?) of the Operation?

 

Curious since I have never been in one myself.

 

Depends on the Op. Stay away from Scum and Villany if you don't have a few hours to spare, for example (My one pug run ran at least 3-4 hours, maybe longer.) OTOH, Dread Palace ran under an hour both times I ran it (both as pugs).

 

Agreed but still nothing to do with RNG gear stopping someone experiencing operations.

 

Except for the tangent of the gearing system driving people away but I believe that's more the tier structure than RNG.

 

My point exactly - for Story Mode (for most ops, anyway; do I still need to caveat the SoR ops?), you can get by with whatever gear the story has topped you out with via drops and rewards; especially since by the time you've completed the storyline you probably have a couple of command crates under your belt. Same with Story mode FPs and uprisings. It'll be easier if you have better than that (I count myself lucky that I got several characters PvP set bonus armor in the waning days of 4.x; but that's another rant), but I've pugged Ops without set bonus (or in one case, the WRONG set bonus - I was down as a DPS but basically just changed to the DPS stance on my tank. We didn't wipe, so there's that)

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Huh? Please read first ... thank you. The word "bad" was never used ... only "not enough". Though I now understand where the defensive conflict is coming from, particularly when the problem always resides with someone who does not share your views. Very well then. It seems my pointing things out creates distress. Therefore I shall cause you no further embarrassment and bid you a good day sir. :)

 

Keep making up stuff if it makes you feel better. Enjoy your fictional victory.

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Keep making up stuff if it makes you feel better. Enjoy your fictional victory.
Folks will find out for themselves what's real and what's made up with or without your consent or mine. I'm at peace with that. And since there was no competition (that I was aware of anyway) there wasn't a victory or a defeat.

 

Regardless, I still bid you a good day. :)

Edited by GalacticKegger
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