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No More Betrayals


Costello

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Posted as part of another thread, however to avoid going off topic there, I thought it best to created the topics own thread. While some of this is likely to seem spoilerish, the events in Kotfe have been well documented in the live streams, forum discussions and even the Kotet page which clearly shows SCORPIO on Vaylins side. So it would be double standards to put this in the Story Spoilers section to be ignored and die when the community team have brought up Koth's betrayal as the perfect example of choice along with the other points raised.

 

When looking at the list of betrayals through out the last 2 chapters (Knights of the fallen Empire and Knights of the Eternal Throne) the list is excessive and shows the betrayal arc has been played out. Lets examine each of the companions you recruit.

 

Valkorian (given his healing provided and dialogues as you progress, a companion in all but body) - Continues to tell you, his on your side but wait its all lies as his just waiting for the right moment to betray you.

 

Arcann - can betray you if you opt to work with him.

 

Lana - Either incompetent or a traitor. Her bright idea on the eve of an assault is for you to seclude yourself and commune with Valkorian to give him an opportunity to attack you.

 

TK-O1 - An existing companion so Loyal.

 

Koth - Betrays you.

 

HK-55 - written out of the story

 

Senya - Betrays you

 

SCORPIO - Betrays you

 

Heralds (not a companion but) - Betray you

 

Theron - Betrays the Republic

 

Kaliyo - Betrays Zakuul (agent betrayal, possible future betrayal)

 

Aric - Betrays the Republic (possibly betrayal, ignores all orders given and dictates to you)

 

Vette and Gault - existing companions hopefully loyal but one of them is a known con man.

 

Torian - existing companion loyal

 

Saresh (not a companion but) Betrays you.

 

And now we have a new chapter coming and what have we here, a Republic Commando who betrayed the Empire and an Imperial Officer that betrayed the Sith Warrior. Likewise we know that you get to pick your side Empire or Republic, it is very possible that Acina will break her alliance and the republic will break the non aggression pact, though perhaps in an amazing turn of events you may be the one doing the betraying!

 

Its like there is only one story being rehashed again and again, you trust or are forced to trust or are forced to work with someone and they betray you. Can the writing team please stop rehashing the same plot device. Does no one like you, is no one loyal to you, or at the very least does no one (if you punished betrayal) fear you enough to think this guy/gal has slaughter the most powerful force using family in the galaxy. Gee let me betray them some more, that will go well for me.

 

So please story team NO More Betrayals. Its been done, its been rehashed to death and its making the story arc lame, when you look at it as a whole its just moments between the next (mostly obvious) unavoidable Betrayal.

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Malavai Quinn betrays you

 

Darth Baras. Darth Zash, hell pretty much every prelude or chapter 1 class story is a betrayal at some point...

 

I think my Imp Agent main char on Harbinger has been betrayed about 20 times between class kotfe and kotet, and thats not even exaggeration. Thats one toon.

Edited by rylanadionysis
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Wow. You've opened my eyes.

 

To add to the list:

- Havoc squad - betrays you and the Republic

- Skavak - steals your ship after working with you

 

Star Wars: Betrayals of the Old Republic :rolleyes:

 

I agree. No more betrayals please. Although I feel it's coming, especially with the War for Iokath, where we can side with a faction.

Edited by SlthBounteHuntah
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Loyalty, betrayal, etc it's all a part of real life. There will be people you think got your back and they'll betray you for whatever reason they thought was important. There are people who will remain loyal to you no matter what either to continue with their own agenda or because they're just a loyalist.

 

It sucks, but it gives the companions and npcs at least SOME semblence of real life personality.

 

Theron doesn't betray the Republic because he hates them, he betrayed them because Saresh was an ****** who didn't listen and Lana asked him to join you. Theron could have said no thank you to Lana's offer. He did it because he believed the Alliance was a better thing to be a part of in the galaxy then sticking with the Republic who wouldn't listen.

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The betrayal of your allies is a forgone conclusion. You have to pick one or the other, so the alliance crumbles and we go back to Rep v Emp or something close. It's the way out of the corner they painted themselves into. I think a better one would be for you to wake up out of a 6 month coma and find out it (4.x, 5.x) was all a bad dream and you're on your ship with your companions, but that won't happen, either.
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Um.....

 

"Betrayal" is not only part and parcel to Star Wars in general, and has been for decades, it is also part and parcel to the classic approach to STORY.

 

This has been true since the rise of story tellers many thousands of years ago, and it follows a very deliberate approach to story telling.

 

Hence it has become integral to screen plays and other multi-media story telling methods in the modern era.

 

In fact, good screen plays rely on some form of betrayal as part of the conflict and resolution arcs for any stories hero/heroine.

 

In fact, the approach has become almost a science in story telling. http://www.thewritersjourney.com/hero's_journey.htm

 

The studio does not get much credit for their story telling skills by some, but it really is the standout part of this MMO, and any player that detaches from specific expectations and lets the story unfold naturally as it was constructed will generally not be upset by the outcome. This studio, and Bioware studios as a whole, have a very good understanding of the mechanics of hero based story telling.

Edited by Andryah
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I get what the OP is saying. The story telling is the best part of the game, but they have fallen back on the 'betrayals'. They are a reality, especially in the Sith world, but there are other plot lines that are exciting and should be explored...

 

These are plots that they could draw on for future adventures: Quest, Adventure, Pursuit, Rescue, Riddle, Rivalry, Underdog, Temptation, Metamorphosis, Transformation, Maturation, Love/Romance, Forbidden Love, Betrayal, Sacrifice, Discovery, Wretched Excess, Rise and Fall.

 

If you examine the stories here, they all contain the above elements which means there is a fair bit of variety in the stories, but yes, lately, it has been betrayal heavy in the newer chapters, so that's why it sticks out. They need to pull away from betrayals and focus on something else for a while. Like Romance and Forbidden Love. :p

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I agree. There's been far too many betrayals now, that it's just become a joke like the writers can't think up anything else. Betrayals are good for a storyline, until it becomes "every single conflict is a betrayer or conspirator against you" then it gets old, really fast. And that's what we're at now. But I'm sure it's all they managed to think of for the next bit of the story too, one more betrayal ... that's all it seems to be these days. Being predictable isn't a good thing, shake it up and gives us something we don't expect!
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Where is this Koth betrayal. I haven't gotten it. Is this only if you choose a bunch of dark side options?

 

I don't recall Lana or Theron betraying anyone.

 

Theron and Jorgan join the Alliance after the Republic has pretty much said "We give up. We'll live under the foot of Zakuul while trying to defeat the Empire."

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Where is this Koth betrayal. I haven't gotten it. Is this only if you choose a bunch of dark side options?

 

I don't recall Lana or Theron betraying anyone.

 

Theron and Jorgan join the Alliance after the Republic has pretty much said "We give up. We'll live under the foot of Zakuul while trying to defeat the Empire."

 

Koth's betrayal stems from dark side choices in KotFE. I think the trigger mission is when you're escaping Zakuul and the sun reactor is about to go off...if you opt to let Zakuul burn, Koth 'remembers' that. Then later, if you trash Zakuul with Kaliyo, Koth will get wind of that, and eventually he takes off with the Gravestone...if you choose light side and take good care of Zakuul and her people, you won't trigger Koth, so he won't betray you.

 

Lana betrayed Theron, in the Rishi story; she sold him out to the Revanites, that's how he gets captured.

 

Theron...hasn't betrayed anybody. (yet)

Edited by Lunafox
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Lana betrayed Theron, in the Rishi story; she sold him out to the Revanites, that's how he gets captured.

 

Theron...hasn't betrayed anybody. (yet)

Lana didn't betray him, but used him as bait to track the revanities, without Theron's consent to maintain plausibility. Its a little semantic, but an important distinction.

 

Theron operated outside of the SIS to pursue the Revanite conspiracy, sent the Sixth Line to Ziost without the Chancellor's approval, deliberately violates the Republic-Zakuul treaty by working with the Outlander and the alliance, solicits aid and provides aid to a republic special forces unit operating without authorization on Zakuul ... should I continue? Oh, and he supports your prompt execution, should you choose to do so, of Saresh when she attempts a coup of Alliance in KOTET chapter 2. If what he is doing isn't treasonous in the legal sense, what is? Good intensions or not, he betrayed the lawfully elected government of the Republic.

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As much as I agree that betrayal is both part of life as well as the IP, I feel it's becoming an overused and tiresome concept. A far too easy go-to and I'd like to see the writers challenge themselves to go deeper, to find a different 'reason' for events and story developments for once.
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Thought I was the only one being annoyed by that.

 

Thanks OP

 

Same here.

 

However, I made sure to kill all the betrayers. I can't be having that.

 

If there is more betrayal to happen it will have to be someone new. The old ones I made sure to kill.

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My guess is that they uised "Betrayal" , because it evokes one of the strongest emotional reactions in humans.

 

My opinion, however, is far too crazy to ever be considered serious : I'd like to have a story line of just NORMAL people in the Star Wars universe ! Just something like ... in the Ewoks movies, for example. Or something like in the Droids movies ... Something not extrovert at all !

 

But that will never ever happen. Why ? Because it doesn't sell.

 

Everything is about action, about thrilling betrayal, about conflict solving via guns & the adrenaline firing these guns ...

 

Slow, more silent stories ? Won't sell. Not in an extrovert county like the USA, and that'Äs the biggest video games market in the world !

 

This is - in my opinion -why THQ put both offline Drakensang RPGs DSIRECTLY into the "bargain bin", because they are so slow, so silent, so much devoid of ANY adrenalkine ... So much non-extrovert ... It won't sell in the U.S. I bet they thought.

 

So, we'll have a whole lotta MORE of adrenaline-filled Action-RPG like content with LOTS of Betrayals - because everything just HAS to be EPIC AND NOTHING MORE !

 

Introvert games, themes and content just won't sell. Not in a country like the U.S. in which introversion is nearly considered an illness.

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I kill all the people that have betrayed me, so why would you risk it. Bad Writing? Though Quinn will live, as I'm not some petty **** that drags up mistakes made almost a decade ago as an excuse to kill them.

 

It seems some people don't think betrayal has become the writing teams go to move so lets have a look at the last 9 chapters. Sadly this will have to be in spoiler :(

 

 

Chapter 1 - Brought about by Senya's betrayal. Compounded by the Voss betraying the galaxy and healing a war criminal, who then get their planet blasted by Zakuul and their savour the very person they are hiding Arcann from (damn right I tried to kill him twice).

 

Chapter 2 - To varying degrees everyone is betrayed by minister Lorman and Saresh, far worse if your an ex republic hero who they try to have killed but equally for an imperial you were setup and the minister tried to have you killed.

 

Chapter 3 - Koth. Even if he hasn't outright stolen the Gravestone, it appears he is flying unsanctioned missions and rigging it with bombs so if anyone other than him tries to use it they will be killed. And does he tell his commander, hell no, he doesn't answer to him and would happily see him dead if he tried to take back his own ship.

 

Chapters 4 & 5 - You end up on in Reaper Controlled Space because SCORPIO betrays everyone and would have killed all Organics if you hadn't been saved by the super weapon. Did SCORPIO betray you at this point or was it Vaylin, probably the later but her betrayals up until this point count against you, so much so nearly every dialogue I had was your scrap, and her reply was don't be silly lets keep acting like nothing happened.

 

Chapter 6 - You make use of people betraying Vaylin to get into her party and then the Arcann Vaylin betrayal plays out.

 

Chapters 7 & 8 - I'm probably missing something but I can't think of any betrayals at this point. Its arguable what Valkorian did to his daddy wasn't nice or that Vaylin knows of your super secret base cause SCORPIO told her.

 

Chapter 9 - Ah great the obvious Valkorian Betrayal, he wasn't helping but was using you for some reason, possibly to take over your body. To be honest this just felt like he had to betray you so some plot involving having to kill his kids (even if you only killed one out the 3 and didn't want to) was needed. It felt like gibberish recon but the important thing is sitting on the Throne was his way of betraying you!

 

 

So it seems like betrayal is the go to move. Now I'm not saying there aren't good points for betrayal, I'm not saying it doesn't exist in the world of Star Wars or the real world.

 

What I am saying is that its been played out again and again and again, at this point why is the hero (antihero if you please) still so trusting. Worst yet though is they will be unavoidable badly written, often ignoring any choices you have made betrayals. I hope the writing team don't fall back on another betrayal arc is Chapter 10. However if they do and you spared everyone thats ever betrayed you, fair play no one fears you and they will take their chance. If however you killed 3 or so betrayers at least the big culprits

Senya, Arcann and SCORPIO

someone new decides to betray you, then it will be a state where the story is just list of forced trusting people followed by obvious betrayals and your an idiot who never seems to do anything except react to problems. Which is a damn shame as Story was meant to be the 4th pillar of the MMO and BW used to have a reputation for decent story telling.

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^^ that.

 

When almost every chapter has a betrayal of one kind of another it starts getting far too cliche and old news. Especially when they write our characters, the Outlander, in as oblivious to it, when in class stories or earlier they'd have picked up on it instantly, or have suffered enough betrayals already in-game that they shouldn't be surprised at all, or should be expecting it. So now we have to come across as beyond stupid when the betrayal coming up just so Bioware can have their 15th "epic unexpected betrayal reveal" that we were so definitely expecting.

 

I've loved the storyline so far, don't get me wrong. I love it, all of it except that one thing. The "betrayal against Outlander" stuff is getting old to the point it's no longer entertaining, just a "oh, so its his turn this time? ok" *bored face about that enlightenment* I enjoy all except those betrayer unveils, who it is I couldn't care less now... Now I fear they'll bring back characters we've already dealt with "just because we can't think up original new stuff".

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Kayilo character was always in it for her. Even when you first meet her as an agent you could tell that if she could profit by betraying you, she would so trusting her is something my agent never did and for my agent Kayilo paid the ultimate price when she betrayed me the last time she refused to obey my orders.

 

Scorpio- Scorpio was never going to be a loyal companion. Even the way she joins the agent's story you knew by the way she talked that ultimately she was going to betray you. You could tell by just talking to her she was going to end up betraying you. Yea, I don't like the choices we had. I would have prefer one choice added with something along these lines, Yea, figured you would do that or something in that line.

 

As far as Koth he will not betray you if you don't make dark side choices. He has never betrayed my smuggler.

 

As far as Valkorian oh please did you really think he was telling your character the truth. Like right. Even my sorceress knew better. Valkorian was never trustworthy in the first place.

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Kayilo character was always in it for her. Even when you first meet her as an agent you could tell that if she could profit by betraying you, she would so trusting her is something my agent never did and for my agent Kayilo paid the ultimate price when she betrayed me the last time she refused to obey my orders.

 

Scorpio- Scorpio was never going to be a loyal companion. Even the way she joins the agent's story you knew by the way she talked that ultimately she was going to betray you. You could tell by just talking to her she was going to end up betraying you. Yea, I don't like the choices we had. I would have prefer one choice added with something along these lines, Yea, figured you would do that or something in that line.

 

As far as Koth he will not betray you if you don't make dark side choices. He has never betrayed my smuggler.

 

As far as Valkorian oh please did you really think he was telling your character the truth. Like right. Even my sorceress knew better. Valkorian was never trustworthy in the first place.

 

I think you are missing the point a little. It isn't if the betrayal was obvious or always going to happen, in many cases its horribly obvious. When my agent first met Kaylio on Hutta he opted to kill her, said he couldn't work with her and didn't trust her. I'm forced to and low and behold she is selling imperial secrets. Or even worse with Scorpio and Senya and even Arcann, which I include as a betrayal but only happens if you don't kneel, work with him to defeat the big bad and then your reward 5 years in prison! Obvious yes, I'm a damn fool for thinking his 'alliance' would ever work but I wasn't exactly given a choice to wait for him to be killed by big bad and then strike.

 

The issue is that everyone betrays you and its gotten really old. And I just hope that from here on out the writing team look at other plot devices than betrayal. Though I would take it one step further if they rely on betrayal again in the next few chapters then they are making the story when take as a whole into one betrayal after another garbage. Anyone looking at the outlanders reign will be like he was the most unpopular hated leader of all time and his own allies had to queue up to take turns betraying him. Valkorian was worshiped as a god and beloved of his people, while this piece of filth (the player) would last lest than a month before his 'Eternal (joke right) alliance' would be betrayed.

 

And I fully get that Koth hiding bombs on your ship (I bloody found it with HK not him) and not telling you is because he thought they were easter eggs and it was a surprise easter egg hunt. The fact that if you had tried to take your ship without his permission they would have armed and killed you thats just silly old Koth! Hell if I let someone have access to my car and they planted bombs in it that if I started it without their code it would kill me its just them being a loyal and true friend....

Edited by Costello
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