Jump to content

The new bolster level


Ranstasia

Recommended Posts

Hello there.

 

I am wondering if the effects of the new bolster have been tested by any of the more emotionally moderate pvpers? Hottie, Snave and the likes.

 

I for my part have not noticed a major difference as of yet but not beeing an ardent participant in pvp this is a layman typing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 153
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Hello there.

 

I am wondering if the effects of the new bolster have been tested by any of the more emotionally moderate pvpers? Hottie, Snave and the likes.

 

I for my part have not noticed a major difference as of yet but not beeing an ardent participant in pvp this is a layman typing.

 

Me? Moderately emotional? LuL

 

Bolster now boosts you to 232 which is around about the same as 4.0 IIRC. On the surface this looks like it's fine but when you factor in a few other things it's actually pretty horrible.

 

First off what is the point of bolster? It's a mechanic designed to "catch up" players who maybe are returning / are new to the game so they don't get destroyed straight off the bat and they get a chance to get gear.

 

Even if we ignore the not insignificant difference in stats between 232 and 242, without set bonus even bolstered players will do significantly less damage than their set bonused brethren (assuming they have a decent set bonus ofc) but that's ok, right? I mean people can work towards getting specific parts of gear right?

 

Well, kinda they can.

 

Because of the RNG nature of the crates, it's truly impossible to work out what the expected level of gear for a player would be after a certain amount of time. For example, I already had all my set bonus pieces from 4.0 but I am currently command rank 204 and have not received my set bonus boots or waist meaning that without being able to get specific slots I would STILL be without my full set bonus AFTER 204 command ranks.

 

Now we've introduced the new system which allows players to work towards specific items this makes this a little bit easier right? Yeah sure it's easIER but that doesn't make it easy or even remotely fast enough.

 

I played for a total of around 10 hours yesterday and I ended with something in the region of a 98% win rate, I think we lost maybe 2 games all night. This allowed me to purchase 2 pieces of 230 items. So 10 hours, we'll call it 100% win rate = 2 pieces, roughly. New players are very unlikely to be getting that kind of win rate (unless they can get Katrinka to carry them like he carries me) so we'll work with a 50% win rate. You're looking at 20 hours of gameplay to get 2 pieces of the 230 starting gear.

 

The exact maths is 226 wins to get a full set of basic gear, assuming all warzones. If we assume again, 50% win rate and an average of 10 minutes per match you're looking at over 75 hours played to get the basic set. That time doesn't include waiting in the queue or anything else, that's literally active time inside a warzone.

 

That is just flat out insanity.

 

So the overarching problem here isn't so much just bolster, it's the fact that the players bolster was designed for will be behind the gear curve for an incredibly long time even if they get lucky with command drops. It means the principle and purpose of the system aren't being met and because of that, it's impossible for it to be a valid system.

 

They need to MASSIVELY drop the cost of the 230 set just so new players can get on to the gear treadmill. I don't care if they increase the cost of later items to compensate for this but to be honest, I think the cost of the later items is pretty darn high anyway. As it stands there isn't a system in the game that allows newer players to remove themselves from relying upon bolster quickly enough.

 

Oh and for anyone who is curious about the time to get full gear purely from warzones:

 

226 wins - tier 1

340 wins - tier 2

511 wins - tier 3

 

So with the same assumptions (50% win rate, 10 minute games) you're looking at 359 HOURS spent inside warzones. Sure you can get command crates that may reduce this time but that's the baseline.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Me? Moderately emotional? LuL

 

Bolster now boosts you to 232 which is around about the same as 4.0 IIRC. On the surface this looks like it's fine but when you factor in a few other things it's actually pretty horrible.

 

First off what is the point of bolster? It's a mechanic designed to "catch up" players who maybe are returning / are new to the game so they don't get destroyed straight off the bat and they get a chance to get gear.

 

Even if we ignore the not insignificant difference in stats between 232 and 242, without set bonus even bolstered players will do significantly less damage than their set bonused brethren (assuming they have a decent set bonus ofc) but that's ok, right? I mean people can work towards getting specific parts of gear right?

 

Well, kinda they can.

 

Because of the RNG nature of the crates, it's truly impossible to work out what the expected level of gear for a player would be after a certain amount of time. For example, I already had all my set bonus pieces from 4.0 but I am currently command rank 204 and have not received my set bonus boots or waist meaning that without being able to get specific slots I would STILL be without my full set bonus AFTER 204 command ranks.

 

Now we've introduced the new system which allows players to work towards specific items this makes this a little bit easier right? Yeah sure it's easIER but that doesn't make it easy or even remotely fast enough.

 

I played for a total of around 10 hours yesterday and I ended with something in the region of a 98% win rate, I think we lost maybe 2 games all night. This allowed me to purchase 2 pieces of 230 items. So 10 hours, we'll call it 100% win rate = 2 pieces, roughly. New players are very unlikely to be getting that kind of win rate (unless they can get Katrinka to carry them like he carries me) so we'll work with a 50% win rate. You're looking at 20 hours of gameplay to get 2 pieces of the 230 starting gear.

 

The exact maths is 226 wins to get a full set of basic gear, assuming all warzones. If we assume again, 50% win rate and an average of 10 minutes per match you're looking at over 75 hours played to get the basic set. That time doesn't include waiting in the queue or anything else, that's literally active time inside a warzone.

 

That is just flat out insanity.

 

So the overarching problem here isn't so much just bolster, it's the fact that the players bolster was designed for will be behind the gear curve for an incredibly long time even if they get lucky with command drops. It means the principle and purpose of the system aren't being met and because of that, it's impossible for it to be a valid system.

 

They need to MASSIVELY drop the cost of the 230 set just so new players can get on to the gear treadmill. I don't care if they increase the cost of later items to compensate for this but to be honest, I think the cost of the later items is pretty darn high anyway. As it stands there isn't a system in the game that allows newer players to remove themselves from relying upon bolster quickly enough.

 

Oh and for anyone who is curious about the time to get full gear purely from warzones:

 

226 wins - tier 1

340 wins - tier 2

511 wins - tier 3

 

So with the same assumptions (50% win rate, 10 minute games) you're looking at 359 HOURS spent inside warzones. Sure you can get command crates that may reduce this time but that's the baseline.

 

Snave. Being the moderately emotional, well-respected player that you are, can you not communicate via another medium exactly what you typed above to Musco, or other representatives of SWTOR that might actually care?

 

Your opinion and reputation means so much more than those of us that are considered "trolls" and "whiners".

 

If players like yourself, skilled veterans and leaders of our community, if you all communicated directly to this company could the message get through how awful this new gearing system is?

 

What you write above is eloquent and sensible.

 

Please use the tools you got available to you and help lead this revolt against this ridiculous gear grinding system.

 

Think of yourself as Wiliam Wallace if you must, or perhaps Robert the Bruce would be even more fitting. Don't hedge on the fence, it is time for action. Help us make change here.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think you can buy t1? if there actually is a t1 vendor for pvp that I'm missing (there is one for unassembled gear pieces but i didn't see a t1 in the components room) that would be a big help so I could switch out my 208 armorings for 230's I've just been getting the t2's to do it with.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think you can buy t1? if there actually is a t1 vendor for pvp that I'm missing (there is one for unassembled gear pieces but i didn't see a t1 in the components room) that would be a big help so I could switch out my 208 armorings for 230's I've just been getting the t2's to do it with.

 

There is a tier 1 vendor for getting the 230 pieces. They're in the same section as the other tier vendors, I'd recommend turning on "vendors" on your map and then mousing over until you find the one for your class.

 

Snave. Being the moderately emotional, well-respected player that you are, can you not communicate via another medium exactly what you typed above to Musco, or other representatives of SWTOR that might actually care?

 

I have the same means of communication as you.

 

Your opinion and reputation means so much more than those of us that are considered "trolls" and "whiners".

 

Not really sure my reputation would elavate me above anyone to be honest.

 

If players like yourself, skilled veterans and leaders of our community, if you all communicated directly to this company could the message get through how awful this new gearing system is?

 

They're asking for feedback from members of the "influencer" program. I am not a part of that program so I'm unable to have any conversations like that. I'd recommend contacting some of them maybe.

 

What you write above is eloquent and sensible.

 

Please use the tools you got available to you and help lead this revolt against this ridiculous gear grinding system.

 

The best revolt against the system is unsubscribing and explaining that when given the option.

 

Think of yourself as Wiliam Wallace if you must, or perhaps Robert the Bruce would be even more fitting. Don't hedge on the fence, it is time for action. Help us make change here.

 

You mean Owain Glyndwr.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Even if we ignore the not insignificant difference in stats between 232 and 242

 

really? snave? REALLY?`

 

You really want to hopp on that hyperbole train? You realize that the difference is actually just about 5%? How is that a significant factor? Its way less than the difference between classes. Its less than raidebuffs such as assaible and overhelmed.

 

i highly doubt that youve recently thought: "wow that sorc keeps crushing me, he must be in 240" nor "wow that merc stands no chance because of his 208 gear". In reality, gear is among the most neglible differences when it comes to performance. For some classes theres even utility points that affect dps output more than those 5% difference.

 

Always thought you were some kind of clever, but seems youre guided by emotions like so many else these days. Sad story, snave, sad story.

 

I hope bioware wont listen to this whine, because actually they did so much right. They gave incentive to grind, without having players be uncompetetive because of gear. They combined pve and pvp and thus increased the playerpool for both.

Yes grinding is work, but everybody should remember that from a psychological POV what you think you want is not actually what you want, and definately not what keeps you playing.

 

With all the problems pvp has right now, such as faction and class imbalance, matchmaking and ranked, gearing really has little to no impact on pvp experience other than placebo effects. Lets focus on the important topics please, thats the least i would expect from a influencer like you are.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hello there.

 

I am wondering if the effects of the new bolster have been tested by any of the more emotionally moderate pvpers? Hottie, Snave and the likes.

 

I for my part have not noticed a major difference as of yet but not beeing an ardent participant in pvp this is a layman typing.

 

 

it surely a drop from my previous stat , i drop around 400 power, accuracy drop from 105.5% to 103.9% and alacrity drop from 10.8% to 9.2%

Link to comment
Share on other sites

really? snave? REALLY?`

 

You really want to hopp on that hyperbole train? You realize that the difference is actually just about 5%? How is that a significant factor? Its way less than the difference between classes. Its less than raidebuffs such as assaible and overhelmed.

 

i highly doubt that youve recently thought: "wow that sorc keeps crushing me, he must be in 240" nor "wow that merc stands no chance because of his 208 gear". In reality, gear is among the most neglible differences when it comes to performance. For some classes theres even utility points that affect dps output more than those 5% difference.

 

Always thought you were some kind of clever, but seems youre guided by emotions like so many else these days. Sad story, snave, sad story.

 

I hope bioware wont listen to this whine, because actually they did so much right. They gave incentive to grind, without having players be uncompetetive because of gear. They combined pve and pvp and thus increased the playerpool for both.

Yes grinding is work, but everybody should remember that from a psychological POV what you think you want is not actually what you want, and definately not what keeps you playing.

 

With all the problems pvp has right now, such as faction and class imbalance, matchmaking and ranked, gearing really has little to no impact on pvp experience other than placebo effects. Lets focus on the important topics please, thats the least i would expect from a influencer like you are.

 

5% is debatable but even assuming it is slightly less than that it is still rather large (especially in ranked or on an entire premade in regs). Remember this 5% isn't just a 5% to bonus dmg, it is a 5% to several areas.

 

I used to box. If I went against someone who was only 5% stronger than me that wouldn't be too much. However, someone that was 5% stronger, 5% faster, and had a 5% longer reach would be hard to overcome even if I was more skilled.

 

I'm still playing 208 alts and even doing rather well in yolo so it isn't a major issue to me yet but that doesn't mean this system is a good thing. 5.0 was almost perfect (outside of balance issues :) ). You could grind for a slight advantage and shinies but you didn't need to. Now you need to if you want to be truly competitive.

 

The main reason I've stuck with swtor is I can live my busy life outside of the game without being punished in game.

Also, it is a great game to play alts in pvp. The skill softcaps are rather low for all classes so it isn't too hard to be decent on all of your chars. This is why I loved 4.0 as well. It was easy to gear all of my chars while still playing rather casually.

 

Hopefully you will grow up one day, get a real job and a family and learn that many adults don't need a long gear grind to enjoy pvp.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I hated bolster and expertise since the day they were put in the game. Looks like I was right all along.

 

I think things are better now as far as bolster goes.

 

The gearing situation on the other hand is causing me to not renew my sub after it expires in early feb.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have noticed more leavers/quitters in pvp now when the match is turning against you

 

Anyway im not getting any of that 242 jazz any time soon i hope you like have 220 blue gear deadweight lvl 70's in your WZ's cause thats what im gonna be when my sub runs out in a few days

 

PvP was about skill not gear but pvp is a mess, the bolster change means that new players getting into 70 pvp will be at an inherently disadvantaged and does no wonders for the issues of currently messed up pvp class balance

Link to comment
Share on other sites

really? snave? REALLY?`

 

You really want to hopp on that hyperbole train? You realize that the difference is actually just about 5%? How is that a significant factor? Its way less than the difference between classes. Its less than raidebuffs such as assaible and overhelmed.

 

I think you've missed the main point of my post. I'm not asking for an increase to bolster, I'm asking for the first tier to be made more accessible and I even added the caveat that you can add the cost to other tiers if you feel it's needed.

 

Not insignificant isn't hyperbole. MASSIVE difference, HUGE difference, GAME BREAKING difference is hyperbole. Not insignificant means it isn't an insignificant difference.

 

Tier 1 stats for main hand are:

 

361 mastery

410 endurance

264 power

181 crit

1805 tech power

 

Compared with tier 3:

 

428 mastery

490 endurance

316 power

215 crit

2206 tech power

 

Bolster is up to 232 which is a little above tier 1 but I didn't have those stats to hand but this is a decent close approximation.

 

So per each full slot (7 of them) you gain

 

67 mastery

80 endurance

52 power

34 crit

 

so just those main slots (items with 3 moddable slots) give you

 

469 mastery

560 endurance

364 power

238 crit

 

For reference the difference with 236 gear to 242 would be:

 

210 mastery

252 endurance

161 power

133 crit

 

That's just 7 slots, you have another 7 to factor in but I'm happy calling that not insignificant. This also doesn't factor in DPS / HPS gain from set bonus which depending on your class is also not insignificant.

 

i highly doubt that youve recently thought: "wow that sorc keeps crushing me, he must be in 240" nor "wow that merc stands no chance because of his 208 gear". In reality, gear is among the most neglible differences when it comes to performance. For some classes theres even utility points that affect dps output more than those 5% difference.

 

I literally have a video where I literally scream out "PVE GEAR SORC!!" so I think it's safe to say I target players with weaker gear. Player skill closes that gap for sure but in an equally skilled match, don't you think having the stat advantage would give you an advantage? Seem like common sense to me.

 

Utility points have nothing to do with gear, are meant to be relative across classes and then balanced accordingly. Arguing talents make more difference than gear is irrelevant to a conversation about gear and gearing.

 

Always thought you were some kind of clever, but seems youre guided by emotions like so many else these days. Sad story, snave, sad story.

 

I'm not really sure which parts of my argument you find overly emotional but as I've explained dozens of times on stream, I really don't care about gear. I'm just pointing out that a flawed system is flawed. They can keep it for all I care, doesn't mean I don't think it's dumb. I also don't think giving players easier access to a basic set of gear is a crazy suggestion but I'm sorry you don't think I'm some kind of clever anymore.

 

I hope bioware wont listen to this whine, because actually they did so much right. They gave incentive to grind, without having players be uncompetetive because of gear. They combined pve and pvp and thus increased the playerpool for both.

Yes grinding is work, but everybody should remember that from a psychological POV what you think you want is not actually what you want, and definately not what keeps you playing.

 

Again, I've said on many occasions that I believe high-end gear should be hard to obtain. I've frequently told the story about the first blue item I crafted in wow (took me about 2 weeks) and how happy it made me. Again, I'm not saying everyone should get full 242's or that bolster should be increased back up to 250, I'm saying the tier 1 set should be more accessible. By more accessible, I mean under 75 hours of played games or praying to RNGesus.

 

With all the problems pvp has right now, such as faction and class imbalance, matchmaking and ranked, gearing really has little to no impact on pvp experience other than placebo effects. Lets focus on the important topics please, thats the least i would expect from a influencer like you are.

 

I agree class imbalance is a huge issue, same with matchmaking and faction balance but saying that something else is more broken doesn't really add anything to this discussion which is about bolster and accessibility to basic gear. If you only want to talk about "the important things" why are we even talking about a video game? Shouldn't we be solving world peace and only ever talk about that because it's more important?

 

I'm also not an influencer :)

 

TLDR - The problem isn't specifically the bolster, the problem is how you get access to your set bonuses and your first tier of gear. Also, you can just use the DvL XP boost gear if you have it. I'm not sure it outperforms 208 set bonus gear but if you don't have the bonuses or your class has terrible set bonuses that set does seem to "break" bolster for the time being.

Edited by snave
Link to comment
Share on other sites

To those suggesting a 5% difference between 232s and 242s: where does that number come from?

 

The DPS loss from 242s to 236s on Bant's spreadsheets is consistently about 7%. If that trend is even vaguely linear the DPS loss from 242s to 232s is almost certainly at least in the ballpark of 10%, and probably slightly over it.

 

If my extrapolating here isn't wrong (and it very well may be) I still think that difference will live in the shadow of the enormous gaps in player skill and class/spec balance present in most encounters but I also think that is a 100% non-reason to just completely ignore this state of affairs, ESPECIALLY when you factor in just how much grinding is required to erase this difference. Multiply that grind by the number of classes you'd like to have gear on and the issue just continues to be magnified.

 

And it's not as if we all have so little righteous indignation on tap that we can't be moderately annoyed by the moderately impactful bolster/gearing situation and, at the same time, far more annoyed by the far more impactful issue of the astronomically huge gaps in serious PVP viability of classes/specs. If there's a petition for the advantage of 242s being too high and the time needed to get them also being too high floating around, consider me a signer.

 

Hello there.

 

I am wondering if the effects of the new bolster have been tested by any of the more emotionally moderate pvpers? Hottie, Snave and the likes.

 

I for my part have not noticed a major difference as of yet but not beeing an ardent participant in pvp this is a layman typing.

For what my opinion is worth, I think 242s have something like a 10% DPS advantage over 232s but this is subject to any unintended bolstering or bugs that I am not yet aware of (and human error :cool:). I explain more above.

 

I think that is too high but it will still go unnoticed more often than not because there are so many variables at work in PVP encounters and many of those variables have potential for far more impact than 10% (e.g. classes involved, specs, player skill, and so on).

Edited by yellow_
Link to comment
Share on other sites

One thing I would like to add to Snaves posts is that even when we had 208 pvp gear, there was a noticeable difference between augmented gear an non augmented gear.

These different tiered stats from tier 1 to tier 3 are nearly the same as someone being augmented or not augmented in 4.0.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The DPS loss from 242s to 236s on Bant's spreadsheets is consistently about 7%. If that trend is even vaguely linear the DPS loss from 242s to 232s is almost certainly at least in the ballpark of 10%, and probably slightly over it.

 

A 7-10% advantage in any competitive scenario is extremely significant. In Ranked scenarios, where one might say skill level is equal, I would lean toward that amount being overpowered.

 

 

You really want to hopp on that hyperbole train? You realize that the difference is actually just about 5%?

 

A 5% advantage in any competitive situation is extremely significant, especially in a PvP game like this where skill (movement and keybinding) isn't as much of a factor. Overcoming a 5% advantage is a pretty steep hill to climb for just about anyone.

 

Snave is addressing the needs of new players to 70 PvP who certainly would never possess the skill set needed to overcome that deficit.

 

Then there are peeps in these forums who have done the math and are saying the gap is more likely 7-10%.

 

 

I think you've missed the main point of my post. I'm not asking for an increase to bolster, I'm asking for the first tier to be made more accessible and I even added the caveat that you can add the cost to other tiers if you feel it's needed.

 

You are certainly on the right track, however, getting people easier access to T1 gear wouldn't alleviate the problem much. There would still be a significant gear gap, 7%-10% disadvantage by Bant's estimations. That's a pretty huge hill to climb.

 

Bolster would have to be raised to compensate. Either that or the stats improved significantly on T1 gear.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To those suggesting a 5% difference between 232s and 242s: where does that number come from?

 

i came up with it because i dont live in hyperbole land but in reality, and in reality there is barely one running around in full 242. By the time hordes of players will be fully geared we may start to discuss the disadvantages of the system because it will actually affect gameplay. This discussion is planning the career of unborn kids. Bioware did place us in a hamsterwheel, who knows what changes they have planned. By the time the first 10% will be full geared there might be a new set of gear. Or they might come up with cxp events to inflate the grind. Who knows. we dont. We cant talk about future, only what we have now. And what we have now is pretty much balanced, gear wise. Honestly, in general i dont look at HPs in warzone to determine easy targets as i did in the past

 

Gear might create differences, but at least its something a player can change. Why dont we talk about Sorcheal beeing meta for years? Why dont we talk about class and faction balance in general? Where is the riot about matchmaking? I mean, i get that one might talk about gear, but i just cant stand that giant hyperbole discussion with all those ragequitters that claim pvp became unbearable because of gear. ***. What game are they playing!?

 

I'm not really sure which parts of my argument you find overly emotional but as I've explained dozens of times on stream, I really don't care about gear. I'm just pointing out that a flawed system is flawed.

 

im sorry snave, i was unfair. I was myself too emotional.

However, how would you make a system that is fair for pvp, but still gives incentive to grind? I mean everyone keeps talking about rerolling to 4.0 standarts as if its been the holy pvp land where everything was nice. You may forget that ques are way better now than they were back then when there was no incentive to play other than pure pvp.

 

These different tiered stats from tier 1 to tier 3 are nearly the same as someone being augmented or not augmented in 4.0.

 

My marauder just got accused of beeing a full 242 when in reality hes still 208 except main offhand. people cant tell the difference in warzones. Of course gear affects stats, but so do classes. Even raiddebuffs. From a powertechtank perspectice, an engineer sniper that provides the raiddebuff "overhelmed" will net a similar dps increase than a full set of 242. A sniper will do more dps than a sorc, even if the sorc is max gear and the sniper not.

 

Lets talk competetive: I dont know a single team that chooses players after gear. Its still ALL about classes. You have have a full 242 dps sorc? good for you. but we still choose the full 230 sniper. Oh youre running a a full 242 op heal? Good luck in solo ranked.

 

Of course gear has an impact, and once theres hordes of guys in 242 we need to talk. But why dont we start with the topics that heavily affect gameplay now

 

 

Edit:

Just so you guys know, you cant 1:1 bants stats, since they use HEAVY amounts of precision which is for most classes very little use. Once you distribute your stats without precision you severly hit softcaps. You really dont want to go beyond 2k crit. So 10% on bants sheet is not 10% in pvp.

 

Edit2: also lets not forget that slots are not equal: Main and offhand are responsible for about 1/3 of your bonus damage, plus the gain on weapondmg.

What in reality happens is that everyone with a brain uses the mats of their first weekly to get main&offhand and from that point on the difference to best in slot gets significantly smaller.

Edited by Qwurdilu
Link to comment
Share on other sites

i came up with it because i dont live in hyperbole land but in reality, and in reality there is barely one running around in full 242.

 

I don't see how you can pull the 5% statistic out on thin air and then accuse other people of not living in reality. You're literally making up numbers you feel are correct rather than working them out. That's literally the difference between an emotional argument and a rational one.

 

People not having full 242 right now isn't an argument that validates the slow progression on the to first step. The gap is still there and the players who will get the 242's first are generally speaking going to be the more skilled players.

 

By the time hordes of players will be fully geared we may start to discuss the disadvantages of the system because it will actually affect gameplay.

 

The gameplay is already being effected. My gear is predominantly 236+ and has a full set bonus. The difference between set bonused 236+ operative gear and non-set bonus 232 operative gear is pretty big.

 

This discussion is planning the career of unborn kids.

 

It's more like making sure unborn kids aren't being born into a dumpster fire. We're trying to increase survival rate.

 

Bioware did place us in a hamsterwheel, who knows what changes they have planned. By the time the first 10% will be full geared there might be a new set of gear. Or they might come up with cxp events to inflate the grind. Who knows. we dont. We cant talk about future, only what we have now.

 

It's unlikely they introduce a new set of gear anytime soon. I doubt the new operation will have a new tier of gear when it launches so I don't see this as a valid point. CxP events do not help the situation because random gearing is random.

 

And what we have now is pretty much balanced, gear wise. Honestly, in general i dont look at HPs in warzone to determine easy targets as i did in the past

 

If you think this is balanced you should become BFF's with whoever balanced Mercenaries. YOU don't look at HP in warzones. I do. I use it to determine which targets aren't geared, then I put a mark on them, then I kill them for the rest of the game.

 

Gear might create differences, but at least its something a player can change. Why dont we talk about Sorcheal beeing meta for years? Why dont we talk about class and faction balance in general? Where is the riot about matchmaking? I mean, i get that one might talk about gear, but i just cant stand that giant hyperbole discussion with all those ragequitters that claim pvp became unbearable because of gear. ***. What game are they playing!?

 

You're doing that thing again where you talk about something completely unrelated to the conversation we're having. People are citing the gear changes as a reason to leave because it's ANOTHER factor, it doesn't replace anything else that might have been annoying them it's an additional annoying factor. Please try and understand this and please stop bringing up unrelated topics.

 

There are a very large amount of threads created constantly complaining about matchmaking, class balance and faction balance. Those are all valid topics to have discussions about but they do not have anything to do with THIS conversation which is about gear and bolster. Maybe we should be talking about PC specs seeing as someone with 10 FPS will have a harder time than someone with 60 FPS? I'll say it again, unrelated topics to this conversation.

 

im sorry snave, i was unfair. I was myself too emotional.

However, how would you make a system that is fair for pvp, but still gives incentive to grind? I mean everyone keeps talking about rerolling to 4.0 standarts as if its been the holy pvp land where everything was nice. You may forget that ques are way better now than they were back then when there was no incentive to play other than pure pvp.

 

Like I said 3 times in this thread already, you should put the grind on the top end of gear, not on the bottom end. Make 242 hard to get, make 230 easy to get. That's how you get someone on to the gear grind.

 

Queues are faster now, better is a subjective term.

 

On the subject of queues you also need to understand how this system is going to hurt queues in the mid to long term. If I'm only PvPing to get gear and my experience in games is getting destroyed by players with better gear then I'm less likely to continue with that game mode once I hit my personal goal. By allowing players to get a more equal standing faster you reduce the amount of negative factors impacting their experience. Of course there are other factors with that particular situation but they're unrelated to the topic of gear and bolster.

 

My marauder just got accused of beeing a full 242 when in reality hes still 208 except main offhand. people cant tell the difference in warzones. Of course gear affects stats, but so do classes. Even raiddebuffs. From a powertechtank perspectice, an engineer sniper that provides the raiddebuff "overhelmed" will net a similar dps increase than a full set of 242. A sniper will do more dps than a sorc, even if the sorc is max gear and the sniper not.

 

I was accused of speed hacking twice in the last week, that has nothing to do with the reality of what was going on. You played against someone who didn't understand what was happening and you're trying to use their ignorance to justify your point that stats don't matter. Stats do matter, that's not my opinion it's a fact.

 

Raid buffs provided a dps gain for a short period of time and are given to each player. You're talking about abilities again not gear only this time you're talking about abilities that last for seconds. Yes, snipers are currently outperforming sorc dps. Now you're talking about class balance, not gear. This is a conversation about gear and bolster please stop trying to inject unrelated topics.

 

Lets talk competetive: I dont know a single team that chooses players after gear. Its still ALL about classes. You have have a full 242 dps sorc? good for you. but we still choose the full 230 sniper. Oh youre running a a full 242 op heal? Good luck in solo ranked.

 

Of course gear has an impact, and once theres hordes of guys in 242 we need to talk. But why dont we start with the topics that heavily affect gameplay now

 

You're talking about class balance again which has nothing to do with this conversation. Also, it's expected for competitive players to get competitive gear.

 

I'm glad you can finally admit that gear has a difference and in my experience it's better to discuss a problem BEFORE it becomes widespread rather than letting it become a clown fiesta and then trying to sort it out.

 

Again you're bringing up class balance. It's really starting to look like you don't understand this conversation at all. Class balance is a separate entity to gear balance. Yes, class balance is bad. Yes, it should be addressed. It still has nothing to do with the gear system. This isn't a zero-sum game where we can only talk about one thing at a time until it's resolved. We can discuss class balance and gear balance and economy and content and whatever else bugs you. This particular conversation is about gearing and bolster, there are about 100 threads discussing class balance if you want to jump into them.

 

 

Edit:

Just so you guys know, you cant 1:1 bants stats, since they use HEAVY amounts of precision which is for most classes very little use. Once you distribute your stats without precision you severly hit softcaps. You really dont want to go beyond 2k crit. So 10% on bants sheet is not 10% in pvp.

 

I'm not really a spreadsheet guy but I'm pretty sure removing accuracy and placing those points in to other stats will give you a DPS gain rather than a loss seeing as you'll have more crit / power / alac. That spreadsheet is still a great source for comparing and a lot more reliable than you pulling 5% out of the air.

 

Edit2: also lets not forget that slots are not equal: Main and offhand are responsible for about 1/3 of your bonus damage, plus the gain on weapondmg.

What in reality happens is that everyone with a brain uses the mats of their first weekly to get main&offhand and from that point on the difference to best in slot gets significantly smaller.

 

That's the tech / force power slot found on those items. You absolutely should upgrade main and off hand weapon first as it is the largest gain.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Snave is addressing the needs of new players to 70 PvP who certainly would never possess the skill set needed to overcome that deficit.

 

Then there are peeps in these forums who have done the math and are saying the gap is more likely 7-10%.

 

You are certainly on the right track, however, getting people easier access to T1 gear wouldn't alleviate the problem much. There would still be a significant gear gap, 7%-10% disadvantage by Bant's estimations. That's a pretty huge hill to climb.

 

Bolster would have to be raised to compensate. Either that or the stats improved significantly on T1 gear.

 

I agree with all of these points. My recommendation of lowering the initial grind to gear was based around trying to maintain as much of the design philosophy of the existing system as possible but it isn't a complete solution to the overall problem.

 

If you completely dismiss the current design philosophy I'd much prefer PvP just to have full 242 bolster (so you can still customise your stats to some extent) and then heavily invest in cosmetic items as rewards for continued play. For solo ranked and team ranked I see no reason why bolster shouldn't be set to 242 regardless seeing as those modes are designed to prove skill rather than to help gear a character.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There is a tier 1 vendor for getting the 230 pieces. They're in the same section as the other tier vendors, I'd recommend turning on "vendors" on your map and then mousing over until you find the one for your class.

There is a t1 for unassembled gear pieces which you get from Ops. In the room for components, There only shows the t2 and t3 vendors who give you an unassembled piece to go buy from the vendors in the room next door.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There is a t1 for unassembled gear pieces which you get from Ops. In the room for components, There only shows the t2 and t3 vendors who give you an unassembled piece to go buy from the vendors in the room next door.

 

You can get tier 1 mate, I bought 2 pieces myself.

 

The first vendor you go to is on the right-hand side, I forget what he's called sorry. You buy a token from him with unassembled pieces then hand that into the tier 1 vendor.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"First off what is the point of bolster? It's a mechanic designed to "catch up" players who maybe are returning / are new to the game so they don't get destroyed straight off the bat and they get a chance to get gear. "

 

The new point of bolster is to give raiders an advantage so they can lure back the ones that quit.

 

It has F all to do with PvP now, just a tool.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

full 240 gear with 230 set armorings is enough for anything wzs wise. So the people that are going to get there the fastest are rich ones.

 

That's my goal atm. I am pvping, while also farming money to buy 240 stuff.

 

The nolifers(not intended as an insult) with full 242 are gonna be too few short and long term, to have any effects of general impressions.

Edited by Kaedusz
Link to comment
Share on other sites

full 240 gear with 230 set armorings is enough for anything wzs wise. So the people that are going to get there the fastest are rich ones.

 

That's my goal atm. I am pvping, while also farming money to buy 240 stuff.

 

The people with full 242 are gonna be too few short and long term, to have any effects of general impressions.

I already craft crit and alacrity augs, and I should be 91 within the next few days (i only pvp so my GC doesnt go up nearly as fast) which will let me craft 234's. Anyone on JC looking to get a little above bolster can bring me mats and I'll make some pieces/augs for them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not really a spreadsheet guy but I'm pretty sure removing accuracy and placing those points in to other stats will give you a DPS gain rather than a loss seeing as you'll have more crit / power / alac. That spreadsheet is still a great source for comparing and a lot more reliable than you pulling 5% out of the air.

 

Those "other" stats which are crit and alacrity, will go very deep into DR, and thus increase is NOT linear. Crit really suffers hard due to the surge DR curve.

Bants sheet is a good start, but doesnt translate well into pvp for various reasons.

For some classes and scenarios the provided stats are completely different. For example annihilation marauder/team ranked scenario. Due to the fact you cant dotspread on cooldown you dont want to stack alacrity.

So you dont want much precision, but you dont want much alacrity either, but you also dont want to go into crit softcap.

If you really start to analyse things for pvp, bants sheet is a great start, but sometimes its completely different.

 

When you start to factor in the harsh DR and the fact that a sane person immidiately gets main offhand after the first weekly, youll end up much more around the 5% range than the 10% form the spreadsheets. Add to that, that there are still many bolster buggs that favor old gear like the 208 relics still beeing better than the 234.

 

If you think this is balanced you should become BFF's with whoever balanced Mercenaries. YOU don't look at HP in warzones. I do. I use it to determine which targets aren't geared, then I put a mark on them, then I kill them for the rest of the game.

 

Dude im not a noob. I do look at hp, but it doesnt determine which target i choose. Id rather tunnel a fully geared sorc than a half *** geared sniper any day. Ofc if theres two sorcs you choose the weaker one. No brainer. But the moment the one has a stunbubble and the other not i reevaluate. You look who kites better. Theres so many factors that determines how easy/strong a target its. Its class/specc/utilities/skill and then, after all that factors, the very least is gear. So how is gear the problem when theres a multitude of factors that have a larger impact?. When you play ranked and you see a dps jugg you dont care about his life or gear. You tunnel him. That is reality.

Btw. it doesnt belong here, but mercs are fine teamranked wise. Its actually snipers and marauders that are toptier there, but who cares about actual competetive gameplay right?

 

The gameplay is already being effected. My gear is predominantly 236+ and has a full set bonus. The difference between set bonused 236+ operative gear and non-set bonus 232 operative gear is pretty big.

 

big? noticeable is more fitting. But that scenario is rather the exception than the rule. In reality everyone goes straight to 240 main&offhand, and the majority still has access to setboni due to old sets.

I play regulary on my marauder which is full 208 with 240 main&offhand. i had those within a few played hours due to weekly rewards. And that character is fully competetive.

 

Stats do matter, that's not my opinion it's a fact

 

Yeah. Its a fact. Its like saying raiddebuffs do matter. From a math point of view its completely legit. The question is how much it matters and the answer is: way less than a multidude of way more important facts.

 

We can discuss class balance and gear balance and economy and content and whatever else bugs you

 

This is no discussion but a witch hunt against bioware. Its listed all the negative aspects with hyperboles and thats without even once mentioning all the oppertunitys this new system has. Im okay with a discussion but please stay realistic.

 

You're doing that thing again where you talk about something completely unrelated to the conversation we're having. People are citing the gear changes as a reason to leave because it's ANOTHER factor, it doesn't replace anything else that might have been annoying them it's an additional annoying factor. Please try and understand this and please stop bringing up unrelated topics.

 

It is connected because people claim theyre unable to compete and its most likely theyre confusing other factors with gear. i have a bunch of twinks and i can play them on a competetive level just by having main&offhand. Thats not an oppinion, its fact that regulary topping charts. If there would be a geargap i werent able to do that, because stats dont lie. Math doesnt lie. But because the gear is good enough i can.

 

ofc we can talk all day about all topics. But bioware wont fix all. That is the truth. That is reality. They will only fix the ones people scream the loudest. So we, the community, are responsible in a way in highlighting important topics and not hyperboling topics that are not a gamechanging matter. We should riot about faction and class balance, matchmaking and ranked. Im going to guarantue that even if gear is fixed your dps operative will be a nonfactor in every ranked mode. Same for many classes. There is no 5% gap. No 10% gap. Its just not viable at all. Ever tried to play dps jugg in regs? it feels like a 100% gap defensive wise. That is problems that needs to be adressed. Ever played on the weaker side of your server? Its not a 5% gap. It feels like another league. Youre going to lose more than just 55% of the games. Is there a working matchmaking for teamranked? no. Theres literally so many game breaking problems, i still cant believe people talk about gear. Theres differences in gear sets, thats supposed to be. Thats what should keep you striving for better gear. But are you at a gamebreaking disadvantage?

 

Lets get this discussion get back down in planet reality and lets talk about how absurd complicate the 5.1 system is, and we may talk about how we can increase incentives for players so theyre actually motivated and not demotivated like many are now. But lets fight those hyperboles claiming theres a severe difference in pvp, and some players are unable to compete because of gear. That is just not true. #science*****

 

Edit:

full 240 gear with 230 set armorings is enough for anything wzs wise. So the people that are going to get there the fastest are rich ones.

 

That's my goal atm. I am pvping, while also farming money to buy 240 stuff.

 

The nolifers(not intended as an insult) with full 242 are gonna be too few short and long term, to have any effects of general impressions.

 

this guy knows. however you dont need much money. You just need to do weeklys with your alts and you get the mats. my poor guildmate had a full set of 240 with 230/208 armoring just by farming weeklys.

Edited by Qwurdilu
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The exact maths is 226 wins to get a full set of basic gear, assuming all warzones. If we assume again, 50% win rate and an average of 10 minutes per match you're looking at over 75 hours played to get the basic set. That time doesn't include waiting in the queue or anything else, that's literally active time inside a warzone.

You've left out, in your analysis, an essential point. I'll fill it in.

 

My first Warzones were for the relevant tiers of the DvL event last year. I started with no PvP gear at all (I carefully set myself up with a set of full 190s), and ended with full (unaugmented) 208.

 

It took me less than 20 matches.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The problems are not currently significant (in reality) in regs but there are problems (in perception).

 

1. People perceive there to be a gear advantage combined with the UC and CXP disparity people are leaving at the first sign of trouble.

 

2. There is a disparity in gear at times. Most everyone is about the same right now. But you do have those matches where one team is at a higher tier level and gear does make a difference in those matches.

 

3. As time goes on it will get increasingly worse for new player, people returning to the game and alts. Two months from now I would expect to see a much wider range of gear. it will be a significant problem for the population of PvP as people will leave at a faster rate then new ones join.

 

4. As a crafter prices will not come down significantly enough where the majority of new/returning people (or alts & casuals) will be willing/able to purchase the gear for alts

 

tldr It is a small problem now that will only get larger as time goes by.

Edited by Kawiki
Link to comment
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.