Galactic Command Gearing Changes, 5.1 and Beyond

[hugor]

I know this is not the topic at hand, but.... please make Galactic Starfighter legacy-wide? Having made an effort to unlock most ships and their upgrades on one char, it's absolutely punishing to just play a couple of games on a new character that you decided to play the class story through, with stock ship and no upgrade

 

Achievements, gear, most rewards are already legacy-wide, just get GSF in there... pretty please with a cherry on top?

[albeva]

I want to cry. I really do.

 

These changes will introduce the most confounding gearing system I have ever seen. None of this is fun, none of this is something I want to do in game. This endless grind to ... replay the same old content all over and over again. Even if BW introduces a new operation ... frankly it is not enough to justify time and effort investment this gearing system requires. Not for me.

 

In old gearing system we could easily bring new / returning players into raids. We would take them through couple raids and help them get the gear. Now? Impossible. They need to spend absurd amount of time grinding these command ranks or we need to invest absurd amount of credits and mats to get them crafted gear. Is that your plan? To force people grind? Because many people are off the opinion that their time is better spent elsewhere.

 

Nobody that I have spoken to likes GC. As far as raiders and old timers that I have discussed this with all agree on this one point. It is most reviled change ever introduced in the game. And yet BW is forcing this further down our throats.

[Gwena]

I suppose these changes are a step in the right direction. Overly complicated, IMHO, but it still sounds better than what we have now. Also, thank you Eric and the devs for admitting things didn't turn out as you'd envisioned and trying to make it better.

 

That said . . . as someone who doesn't do ops and dislikes PvP (yes, including GSF), I see these proposed changes as a paltry, pitiful offering. The character perk for increased CXP sounds like a good idea at first, but if it is as expensive as I fear it will be, it will just tick me off because my CXP gain is so slow that it will be something I feel obligated to get for each character. Sorta like how "speeder piloting 3" was very expensive back in 1.x, and though you could choose not to buy it, it was kinda expected that you would.

 

Regarding CXP boosts for command tokens: I am not impressed, or even particularly interested. I prefer not to play with expensive timed boosts, as I feel I have to rush, and not stop to do no/low XP things things like check the GTN or craft. Besides, 15% is pretty low -- and as has been mentioned, it won't even up the CXP for gold mobs.

 

And are these CXP boost the ONLY thing you can buy with the tokens alone? There was a big thread of suggestions; did you really decide not to add any cosmetic/fluff items that could be bought for tokens? I feel that could do a lot to help make crates feel more worthwhile for some of your players.

 

I may not need (and do not expect) the best gear, but don't you guys want players like me to enjoy the GC system too? I spent a few evenings taking my GC rank 20-ish Sorcerer through chapters 10-16 of KotFE for the first time. I didn't rush, but nor did I dally, and do you know how many GC ranks I earned in all that time? Not even one. And today, I ran my GC rank <10 agent through solo FP's a few times in hopes of getting cosmetic drops. This took me at least an hour, and do you know how many command crates I got? None.

 

Given how slowly my characters (I play 3-4 about equally) gain ranks past the very early levels, and how unimpressive the contents of the crates are, I find the GC system very disappointing and discouraging; these are not things that one should associate with anything intended to be fun.

[Jerba]

Can't really be bothered to list all the reasons why the gearing in 5.0 and 5.1 is garbage, though I recommend the devs to watch 15 minutes from Snave's livestream, he did a perfect summary:

 

https://www.twitch.tv/snave1208/v/116401159

 

I don't even care about the specifics of the system too much. Whether you get 4 or 5 components per warzone, what slot is dropped by which boss, how many tokens you need for trade in etc. - that doesn't make or break the system.

 

The problem is that the grind is too long. In PvE, raid groups need gear to get back to progression. In PvP, everyone needs the same gear so there is a level playing field. Everyone else enjoys getting good gear but they can play the game just fine without it (and no, BiS gear won't help you with the Master Mode chapters if you don't know your class, and from my experience, players who have never done PvP or operations don't know their class).

 

I understand that BWA wants to prolong the grind so players don't lose interest with no new content. I understand that the 4.0 gearing process was too fast for PvE (for PvP it's debatable). However, the 5.0/5.1 grind is so long it demotivates players. Like I wrote earlier, a 300% to 500% boost to CXP across the board is the best way to fix this system in my opinion. Then players can get gear at the right speed, not too fast where they get bored, and not too slow where they lose motivation.

 

Currently, too much emphasis is placed on gear. With such a long grind, players are only looking at the reward. If a 3-hour raid gives them no loot, they are disappointed. If a player in a flashpoint wipes the group, he'll get kicked. And players only queue for the shortest content (Fractured) because they want to shorten the grind, which means they'll be burned out faster because there's no variety. A shorter grind would help, and perhaps manage to foster a better community again, but I fear the endgame PvE community is irreparably damaged because of the 4.0/5.0 fallout.

 

In the end, the game can only survive on new content, but above all, good balance. If every activity truly did give the same CXP (within reason, so NiM still gives CXP more than SM), then the system would be fine but it's not. When one Uprising takes 6 minutes but another 15-20 minutes, yet both reward the same CXP, you know something is wrong. When seasoned operation players start running only PvP/GSF because it gives more gear than operations, you know something is wrong. When a Tactical flashpoint boss hits harder than most HM flashpoint bosses, you know something is wrong. When class balance is so messed up that pretty much every class is bugged in some way, you know something is wrong.

 

I appreciate that you mention new operations, but they alone won't help. They must be perfectly balanced (think DF/DP, not Rav/ToS) and bug free, first of all. But even then, they must drop T4 gear (better than 242) or double the CXP of any other content for players to even be interested in running them more than a handful times. Operation players that have quit may (emphasis on may), may come back to see the operation and will then quit again. The way the game is currently designed, there is no motivation for an operations player to get into the game again and play it on a dedicated basis. The devs make so many incoherent design decisions, they are quiet on major topics, the raiding community has dwindled down, the average player skill has gone so low that you can't even PuG the event raid bosses anymore (Xenoanalyst/Eyeless).

 

Anyway, those are the main issues in my opinion. But even if Musco reads it, I don't think he'll pass it onto the devs, and even if the devs read it, I don't think they are capable of making the changes of turning this game around. This game already was close to shutting down shortly after release, and the F2P transition managed to save it. I know some people give flak for SWTOR's F2P model but I will forever be grateful that it saved the game. But now - oh boy, there's no way the current devs can turn this game around. This article from a SWG game developer (via this thread) is a great read on the lessons that SWTOR's devs still have to learn.

Edited January 21, 2017 by Jerba

[FerkWork]

Is that yes then?

 

Yes /5char

[Sith-Viscera]

So it seems to me that once again those that do not play OPS old or NEW, will get screwed again on new gear.

Just like the old days if you do not play OPS and get that high tier gear then you cant compete in PVP mainly Rank PVP.

THen you dont want to play PVP any longer, for me this is the case. I just recently, thx to 5.0 started to play PvP again after 2 years been having fun spite the crazy over powered Mercs and Healers,but thats a different topic.

 

There should be alternatives on getting any level of gear, so if you want to get the gear through OPS then do so experience the OPS and get that gear. If you want to just pvp get the same gear then do that. What i am saying those people that like that stuff will do it regardless but now they have an extra added incentive.

 

Other wise it just like it was 2 years ago, you have to get this piece and that piece and have so much tokens of a certain kind to get this high tier gear. So perhaps have a open mind and do it like my idea or some what like it.

I dont want to stop playing pvp again.

Thanks.....

[FerkWork]

So it seems to me that once again those that do not play OPS old or NEW, will get screwed again on new gear.

Just like the old days if you do not play OPS and get that high tier gear then you cant compete in PVP mainly Rank PVP.

THen you dont want to play PVP any longer, for me this is the case. I just recently, thx to 5.0 started to play PvP again after 2 years been having fun spite the crazy over powered Mercs and Healers,but thats a different topic.

 

There should be alternatives on getting any level of gear, so if you want to get the gear through OPS then do so experience the OPS and get that gear. If you want to just pvp get the same gear then do that. What i am saying those people that like that stuff will do it regardless but now they have an extra added incentive.

 

Other wise it just like it was 2 years ago, you have to get this piece and that piece and have so much tokens of a certain kind to get this high tier gear. So perhaps have a open mind and do it like my idea or some what like it.

I dont want to stop playing pvp again.

Thanks.....

 

You still get gear from crates.

[Baraxis]

You still get gear from crates.

 

Which sucks to do.....

 

As has been explained over and over.....

 

They see money leaving because of the "get gear from crates." So they are making changes. Changes that sadly don't fix the issue for what the gaming community as a whole across all games KNOWS is the Majority.

 

Casual gamers has been and still is the largest segment of gamming customers, yet they aren't making changes that make a dent in their grievances.

[wainot-keel]

My god, did they say daily areas and operations?

 

They said they are going to discuss those topics. That's all. They could very well be saiying "we won't make new operations because of reasons"....

[Radzkie]

You actually used the word operations under the title of New End Game Content....impressive...very impressive

 

I said the same thing out loud on TS. Everyone laughed and told me to read the first reply (this reply) to the thread.

 

My main concern is, one op after 2 + years aint fixing much. Not unless the devs plan and promise to release ops every x amount of months from here on out. Who's to say after the next op it wont be three, four, five, six years till another one? The raiding guilds that are left might be OK with that , but my primary guild (hardcore guild that's currently on FF14) will never return for just that.

Edited January 21, 2017 by Radzkie

[AussieAlan]

So legacy boost, is it 10% the max total, or do they stack with the others so 30% total?.

[RagnarAugustus]

Anything that reduces RNG is a step in the right direction.

 

But ultimately falls short since RNG is still here.

[gabigool]

My main concern is, one op after 2 + years aint fixing much. Not unless the devs plan and promise to release ops every x amount of months from here on out. Who's to say after the next op it wont be three, four, five, six years till another one? The raiding guilds that are left might be OK with that , but my primary guild (hardcore guild that's currently on FF14) will never return for just that.

 

This is the key point that I am 100% certain Ben can't grasp. I honestly think it's beyond him.

 

He doesn't understand the mindset of a typical MMO player and as such this type of concept probably doesn't cross his mind.

 

You've hit the nail on the head, of course. Simply throwing in a new Operation won't do a whole lot for this game without a clear, communicated commitment to the content type moving forward. This includes the return of master mode, discontinuing normalization (even phased would work), a radical change to end-game gearing (no, 5.1 isn't even close) and, as you say, the security of knowing new content will come in a reasonable timeframe.

 

The community needs to be rebuilt. Right now it's basically dead. Nearly everyone I've ever been teamed with is playing WoW or FF right now. One new raid is not going to pull them back. Not without some promises. Not with this gear system. And for my friends that were more casual, not without older NM content being able to be over-leveled. And most definitely not with Hardmare.

 

IMO If the studio wants to do it right they would do the following:

 

Put new content on the PTS and invite raid guilds/groups to participate. Actually fix the **** people find.

 

8-10 new Operations bosses split into two raids. Stagger them by one month.

 

Release them with three tiers:

16-man groupfinder "Story" mode. True LFR. No major mechanics. Derpfest. No enrage. Minimal outgoing damage.

8-man "Normal" mode. groupfinder. Equiv of vanilla normal mode. Extremely liberal enrage. Cleanses. Some spike tank damage, moderate raid damage. 1-2 mechanics per fight but lethal if not done properly.

8-man "Hard" mode. Equiv of vanilla hard mode. Tighter enrages, a few DPS checks. Heavy outgoing damage. Multiple lethal mechanics.

 

Fix new bugs asap. As in hotfix.

 

One month later release NM for the first raid. True NM.

One month later release NM for the second.

9-10 months later, new Operations.

 

Commit to this upfront. Follow through as best you can.

 

Take EV/KP and drop them down in level, or if cap is raised, do not raise them. They need to die. Truly, they no longer belong in anything resembling Ops gameplay.

 

I would also suggest taking older content like EC/TFB/SnV and phase them down a level as well. The NM versions of those raids are fantastic but the players that can do them have done them for years. Less capable groups would enjoy doing them overleveled. It stretches out the content cycle in a fun way. Stretching with a gear grind is not a fun way.

 

And lastly, gear needs to be far, far more straightforward to get. Even the new changes do nothing to encourage playing an alt until they've been geared out by a main. It's not a healthy structure. Any semblance of RNG needs to vanish from Operations play. It does not belong in this portion of the game.

 

The focus should be on gameplay. Not gearing. Period.

 

I know this is a pipe dream. But being honest, my goal is not simply to see new Operations, but rather to see the community be what it once was - what I feel it ought to be. And what I know with proper management it easily could be. Sadly, we do not have that management. We have management that just doesn't get it.

[Anzel]

Booooooorrrrrriiiinnnng...

 

Basically a never ending, repetitive grind fest. No thanks. I'm keeping all my accounts unsubbed. This is a convoluted mess of garbage and not worth playing for even one minute.

[Jerba]

This is the key point that I am 100% certain Ben can't grasp. I honestly think it's beyond him.

 

He doesn't understand the mindset of a typical MMO player and as such this type of concept probably doesn't cross his mind.

 

You've hit the nail on the head, of course. Simply throwing in a new Operation won't do a whole lot for this game without a clear, communicated commitment to the content type moving forward. [snip]

I 100% agree with everything in your post. So many players say they want a new operation, but a new operation won't come close to fixing the situation.

 

Players have lost trust; one new operation will not get them to return on a long-term basis, but only a full committal by the devs to operations. This includes a return to the old progression-based gearing system, extensive PTS testing, perfect balancing, bug free, and innovative boss mechanics that push the engine to its limits. Once the devs reach such a point and can keep it up for a year or so, players may decide to come back.

 

But sadly, this approach would mean abandoning all other parts of the game, like PvP, GSF, Story and Strongholds. Given how small the operations community has gotten because of the dev's decisions, this is not financially feasible, and the current devs have neither the experience nor the willpower for that.

So one new operation? Yeah, maybe some of the old players will subscribe for 1 month to check it out for nostalgic reasons, but they won't stick around. As much as I do want an operation, it's not profitable.

 

I do think the game is beyond saving at this point, too little, too late. It's a shame, I have enjoyed this game, and I still enjoy raiding with my guild, but I just don't see how it can return to its former glory (Oricon).

The game can still survive another 1-2 years with a few more story chapters, but even that business model is not profitable as we saw in early 2016 - story players just won't stick around for months when they can get all the content for a single month subscription.

Edited January 21, 2017 by Jerba

[Deewe]

This is the key point that I am 100% certain Ben can't grasp. I honestly think it's beyond him.

 

He doesn't understand the mindset of a typical MMO player and as such this type of concept probably doesn't cross his mind.

 

You've hit the nail on the head, of course. Simply throwing in a new Operation won't do a whole lot for this game without a clear, communicated commitment to the content type moving forward. This includes the return of master mode, discontinuing normalization (even phased would work), a radical change to end-game gearing (no, 5.1 isn't even close) and, as you say, the security of knowing new content will come in a reasonable timeframe.

 

The community needs to be rebuilt. Right now it's basically dead. Nearly everyone I've ever been teamed with is playing WoW or FF right now. One new raid is not going to pull them back. Not without some promises. Not with this gear system. And for my friends that were more casual, not without older NM content being able to be over-leveled. And most definitely not with Hardmare.

 

IMO If the studio wants to do it right they would do the following:

 

Put new content on the PTS and invite raid guilds/groups to participate. Actually fix the **** people find.

 

8-10 new Operations bosses split into two raids. Stagger them by one month.

 

Release them with three tiers:

16-man groupfinder "Story" mode. True LFR. No major mechanics. Derpfest. No enrage. Minimal outgoing damage.

8-man "Normal" mode. groupfinder. Equiv of vanilla normal mode. Extremely liberal enrage. Cleanses. Some spike tank damage, moderate raid damage. 1-2 mechanics per fight but lethal if not done properly.

8-man "Hard" mode. Equiv of vanilla hard mode. Tighter enrages, a few DPS checks. Heavy outgoing damage. Multiple lethal mechanics.

 

Fix new bugs asap. As in hotfix.

 

One month later release NM for the first raid. True NM.

One month later release NM for the second.

9-10 months later, new Operations.

 

Commit to this upfront. Follow through as best you can.

 

Take EV/KP and drop them down in level, or if cap is raised, do not raise them. They need to die. Truly, they no longer belong in anything resembling Ops gameplay.

 

I would also suggest taking older content like EC/TFB/SnV and phase them down a level as well. The NM versions of those raids are fantastic but the players that can do them have done them for years. Less capable groups would enjoy doing them overleveled. It stretches out the content cycle in a fun way. Stretching with a gear grind is not a fun way.

 

And lastly, gear needs to be far, far more straightforward to get. Even the new changes do nothing to encourage playing an alt until they've been geared out by a main. It's not a healthy structure. Any semblance of RNG needs to vanish from Operations play. It does not belong in this portion of the game.

 

The focus should be on gameplay. Not gearing. Period.

 

I know this is a pipe dream. But being honest, my goal is not simply to see new Operations, but rather to see the community be what it once was - what I feel it ought to be. And what I know with proper management it easily could be. Sadly, we do not have that management. We have management that just doesn't get it.

They simply don't have the budget for that.

 

Also the budget they have was wasted changing the classes and building the RNG.

[Costello]

I said the same thing out loud on TS. Everyone laughed and told me to read the first reply (this reply) to the thread.

 

My main concern is, one op after 2 + years aint fixing much. Not unless the devs plan and promise to release ops every x amount of months from here on out. Who's to say after the next op it wont be three, four, five, six years till another one? The raiding guilds that are left might be OK with that , but my primary guild (hardcore guild that's currently on FF14) will never return for just that.

 

I agree.

 

First it should be quantified that no point has there been a commitment to a new operation, Eric simply acknowledged the sort of thing that players wanted. Plenty of kids want a pony for christmas doesn't mean they will be getting on.

 

Though more importantly if any of the development team take note, one new operation wont be enough, one new operation, daily zone and pvp map likewise wont be enough. The game needs to become an MMO, I had been tempted to use the word again but thats the problem, that was never really the design plan from the get go. Much of the game feels like a static lifeless experience and that is how it was designed almost like the open world area was little more than a lobby that you used between instanced areas. The inital design plan had been to churn out frequent updates so you would constantly have new things to do, sadly people burnt through content too quickly and they couldn't keep up so people left.

 

The game needs more of an open world feel to it (which shouldn't be hard) where for example you can stand on Tatooine and watch the twin suns sets (aka a new hope) or wade through the filth on hutta hunting evokii for sport or sneak through enemy instillation to steal valuable data (aka Rogue One). As opposed to riding your rancor round a space station devoid of anything close to any personality or life apart from a few people crowded round the GTN, or static worlds, environments with no real substance and areas that are all vast corridors with static guards that you have to kill unless you have a cloak of invisibility.

 

Long end game grinds are necessary but the grind should be made as interesting as possible not be bland and life less with combat relegated to cool down management.

[DanNV]

I know this is a pipe dream. But being honest, my goal is not simply to see new Operations, but rather to see the community be what it once was - what I feel it ought to be. And what I know with proper management it easily could be. Sadly, we do not have that management. We have management that just doesn't get it.

 

Yep. They are totally out of touch. This "fix" proves it.

[Osgorion]

Hey folks,

 

Since the launch of Knights of the Eternal Throne, we have received a lot of great feedback about the gearing changes we made through Galactic Command.

 

Orly?

Edited January 21, 2017 by Osgorion

[Psychopyro]

Put new content on the PTS and invite raid guilds/groups to participate. Actually fix the **** people find.

 

This IS part of the problem... They only invite raiding guilds for the most part... So guess what, nothing actually gets tested. They hand out free gear and then tell them to bash their heads against the bosses without telling them what the mechanics SHOULD be.

 

The raiders don't know if they are doing it right because they are not told. So they can't even LOOK for a bug to begin with. And the non raiders they have come in to test the other stuff are getting free top end gear, so balance gets screwed...

[Jedi_riches]

This IS part of the problem... They only invite raiding guilds for the most part... So guess what, nothing actually gets tested. They hand out free gear and then tell them to bash their heads against the bosses without telling them what the mechanics SHOULD be.

 

The raiders don't know if they are doing it right because they are not told. So they can't even LOOK for a bug to begin with. And the non raiders they have come in to test the other stuff are getting free top end gear, so balance gets screwed...

 

Actually didn't they try this with TOS or one of the other past operations? The biggest problem was the raiding guilds cleared the pts easy but they were in the top 2% of raiders when the other 98% came to try it they found it completely undouable and the op had to be nerfed?

[Groncho]

Hey folks,

 

Since the launch of Knights of the Eternal Throne, we have received a lot of great feedback about the gearing changes we made through Galactic Command.

-eric

 

Srry but i'm not a folk, i'm a paying customer (at least for 10 more days)

so please tell me Mr Folk

COMANNNNNDD GRINF IS SO EXCITING!!!!!!!

[Psychopyro]

Actually didn't they try this with TOS or one of the other past operations? The biggest problem was the raiding guilds cleared the pts easy but they were in the top 2% of raiders when the other 98% came to try it they found it completely undouable and the op had to be nerfed?

Yea, but they still did not tell them mechanics... And they gave them top end gear to test SM OPS... Again, couldn't test bugs for sure because of lack of knowledge, and balance got screwed because they should have been in lower tier gear.

 

They actually pushed thru SM bugs because of the top end gear and the fact they were a top raiding guild (that from what I was told ALSO had one of the Devs in the guild)....

[Ruskaeth]

Holy mother and the three legged spirit frog!

 

Unassembled gear piece? How did they come up with that idea?!

 

[Ruskaeth]

And legacy bound boosts bought with Command Tokens.lol... So you burn your command tokens to buy a boost to get command tokens... Sounds exciting.

Exactly.

 

This concept made me giggle. Grind to get a crate and tokens. Buy a boost with tokens and disintegrate whatever was in the crate. Repeat. Faulty system does not require slight of hand pseudo-effects to seem faster or better. It needs a redesign.