Guard mechanic from DPS classes, yay or nay?

[Nightkin]

All focus lately has been on the new defensive mechanics for mercs, very very few people realise how to counter it.

But what i have personally found, that really makes anyone with selfheals very tough these days is the fact that everyone is basically guarded 24/7.

 

This turns just about anyone into a tanky monster.

Anyone who ever played Diablo 3 knows what unity did for survivability (hint: it gave you 50% dmg reduction, just as guard does).

 

Now, i dont really dislike the slower pace of pvp due to how much dmg is mitigated all the time but...it creates weird situations where someone (lets say, 90% of the community) never manage to kill anyone except someone equally bad.

Add the new mechanics for mercs/mandos that basically noone understands due to overall derp level of individual skill and we have chaos.

 

I mean just look at the PvP forums these past few days, i get so tired of reasoning with doodoo throwing peasents that i simply turn to wicked, arrogant trolling since it's obviously pointless trying to explain the most basic tactics to people who have barely read the patch notes.

 

Now, am i overreacting or is this cesspool of a community ignorant of what dps classes guard ability does for PvP?

[Greezt]

All focus lately has been on the new defensive mechanics for mercs, very very few people realise how to counter it.

But what i have personally found, that really makes anyone with selfheals very tough these days is the fact that everyone is basically guarded 24/7.

 

This turns just about anyone into a tanky monster.

Anyone who ever played Diablo 3 knows what unity did for survivability (hint: it gave you 50% dmg reduction, just as guard does).

 

Now, i dont really dislike the slower pace of pvp due to how much dmg is mitigated all the time but...it creates weird situations where someone (lets say, 90% of the community) never manage to kill anyone except someone equally bad.

Add the new mechanics for mercs/mandos that basically noone understands due to overall derp level of individual skill and we have chaos.

 

I mean just look at the PvP forums these past few days, i get so tired of reasoning with doodoo throwing peasents that i simply turn to wicked, arrogant trolling since it's obviously pointless trying to explain the most basic tactics to people who have barely read the patch notes.

 

Now, am i overreacting or is this cesspool of a community ignorant of what dps classes guard ability does for PvP?

 

Apparently this "cesspool of a community" knows how to play meta. Otherwise, why are there so many mercs around? I know, bad players et cetera. At least they know how to choose their FoTM correctly.

 

As for guard - I would respond with something along like "only two DPS AC can guard without dying, stop complaining" but you're obviously a troll who's not interested in a response.

 

I'm riled, you've done your part.

 

Go home.

[Nightkin]

Yes, i kinda despise the vast majority of players around me due to constant whining, ignorance and so on. You got upset about that since obviously you felt attacked or something. I dont really care, bads annoy me to no end when they refuse to accept that they have L2P issues. You completely managed to dodge the question of the thread though and turned your answer into one big manchild complaint instead, gg.

[Jherad]

The 'any sin/PT/jugg' can tank mechanic certainly makes it much harder to take down more people - but it also has it's workarounds. The dps doing the guarding is a LOT squishier than a real tank, so 'tunnel the (fake) tank' works, especially if you can catch them both in AOE together.

 

People need to get away from the 'always hit the healer' strat to an extent.

[Nightkin]

The 'any sin/PT/jugg' can tank mechanic certainly makes it much harder to take down more people - but it also has it's workarounds. The dps doing the guarding is a LOT squishier than a real tank, so 'tunnel the (fake) tank' works, especially if you can catch them both in AOE together.

 

People need to get away from the 'always hit the healer' strat to an extent.

Oh i agree and i know how the mechanic works since Biowares combat system is basically the same as from old Warhammer: Age of Reckoning.

Same combat system with guard and taunts.

 

So i get the whole point in focusing the one doing the guarding IF that person happens to be a dps.

But, overall, does this allowance to skanktank so to speak, cause huge effects on PvP thats not really visually available to the vast majority?

It kinda feels like it does and to the average joe playing the game all he can see is how people simply wont die, thus something is broken and the whambulance needs to work overtime.

[Darkshadz]

Oh i agree and i know how the mechanic works since Biowares combat system is basically the same as from old Warhammer: Age of Reckoning.

Same combat system with guard and taunts.

 

So i get the whole point in focusing the one doing the guarding IF that person happens to be a dps.

But, overall, does this allowance to skanktank so to speak, cause huge effects on PvP thats not really visually available to the vast majority?

It kinda feels like it does and to the average joe playing the game all he can see is how people simply wont die, thus something is broken and the whambulance needs to work overtime.

 

People complaining about skanktanking in 5.0 LUL

 

Seriously, I hardly see people complaining about skanktanking. Can't say the same about mercs

[Jherad]

People complaining about skanktanking in 5.0 LUL

 

Seriously, I hardly see people complaining about skanktanking. Can't say the same about mercs

 

To be fair, I don't think he was complaining about it so much as pointing out how people are misinterpreting its impact.

 

Yes, I think the new skanktanking meta has changed things up quite a lot, and people are absolutely 'missing' what's going on. But I also think that's a good thing heheh. Amid accusations of BW 'dumbing down' PvP, it's nice to have a few things which people actually need to think more about now.

 

And of course that goes for more than just 'guarding'.

[Nightkin]

People complaining about skanktanking in 5.0 LUL

 

Seriously, I hardly see people complaining about skanktanking. Can't say the same about mercs

You perfectly just made my point for me, thank you

[Liquor]

Letting everyone guard is foolish. It just shows the community how much the devs don't understand how a Trinity works.

 

These fake tanks aren't even skanktanks. The melt. It's funny because the true tanks have a ton more HP and actually know how to tank properly. The skanktanks have proper protection and can deal out better sustained deeps.

 

On SL there's only 1 tank I've come across with more than 140k HP and is a real pain. Right now he is barking at the heels of 160k HP and still hasn't min/maxed tier 1 gear yet. Endure Pain and he is over 200K HP. Will min/max tier 3 gear put true tanks at 200K HP while heals and deeps will have 160K?

 

Give it another month and the teir 2 and 3 crew skilled mods, enhancements, barrel/hilt and armorings will be available.not to mention the set-bonus armorings.

 

Guard should only be on tanks. I'm tired of fake tanks guarding everything and not even soaking up 1% of the damage in a match.

[Nightkin]

Letting everyone guard is foolish. It just shows the community how much the devs don't understand how a Trinity works.

 

These fake tanks aren't even skanktanks. The melt. It's funny because the true tanks have a ton more HP and actually know how to tank properly. The skanktanks have proper protection and can deal out better sustained deeps.

 

On SL there's only 1 tank I've come across with more than 140k HP and is a real pain. Right now he is barking at the heels of 160k HP and still hasn't min/maxed tier 1 gear yet. Endure Pain and he is over 200K HP. Will min/max tier 3 gear put true tanks at 200K HP while heals and deeps will have 160K?

 

Give it another month and the teir 2 and 3 crew skilled mods, enhancements, barrel/hilt and armorings will be available.not to mention the set-bonus armorings.

 

Guard should only be on tanks. I'm tired of fake tanks guarding everything and not even soaking up 1% of the damage in a match.

You certainly have good points, but when you see OPS/Sorc healers facetank 2-3 players using mostly only heals and the occasional cooldown to help out with the mitigation, such overwhelming healing potential should handle a dps guards lousy mitigation quite well. If you question why merc healers dont do this then i suggest you read up on Brants stat comparison. Mercs have decent defences (IF people attack them like mongs) but healing is far faaaar behind (im talking about bodyguard spec now incase someone didnt understand).

 

Btw, this answer was not directed at the person i quoted, it was more for discussion material due to Liqour raising some good points.

[Glower]

It sucks to be a real tank in current normal games... Everyone is guarded so i cannot guard them and these "tanks" just dropping like flies.

[Nightkin]

It sucks to be a real tank in current normal games... Everyone is guarded so i cannot guard them and these "tanks" just dropping like flies.

A very valid point, removing the restriction on just 1 guard per player might mitigate that i guess, based on distance to the guarded target but additional computing in the background might cause even more lag in pvp. But i hear ya, this change basically makes it so some dps guards your healer and suddenly he runs off to solo rambo a node far away and you stand next to the healer, unable to help

[Banderal]

It sucks to be a real tank in current normal games... Everyone is guarded so i cannot guard them and these "tanks" just dropping like flies.

 

Pft. In my experience, those fake tanks don't drop like flies because of the guard. They drop like flies because they put a guard on my midbie healer and then jumped into the middle of the melee 1/2 way across the map and LOS my healing.

 

I swear, I've had ONE tank that I've felt like was actually tanking since 5.0 dropped. I actually had a tank in a match with TWO of us healer in it, and s/he puts into chat "do we have heals?" 1/2 way through. At the end they had like 14K protection. Meanwhile, myself and the other healer are being ripped apart by their DPS as soon as we get anywhere near the fighting. Really? "Do we have heals"? How about, "Do we have a tank?... A real one?"

[Banderal]

A very valid point, removing the restriction on just 1 guard per player might mitigate that i guess,

 

I think the mechanic would get very screwy then, and I wouldn't trust bioware to implement it correctly. Despite how everyone casually throws out the "50% mitigation" claim for guard, that's not actually true. It's not just a flat "the guardee takes 50% less damage", it's a 50% TRANSFERENCE. The guarder takes that 50%, which is why tanks need those extra HP.

 

Now, you (and I ) might think, well, just make 25% go to each guarder if there are two, but then I think about how simple something like bolster SHOULD have been done, and how much bioware could mess up something as simple as dividing by 2, and I go "No, you know what, don't mess with the mechanics of guard. Just keep it the way it is."

 

based on distance to the guarded target but additional computing in the background might cause even more lag in pvp. But i hear ya, this change basically makes it so some dps guards your healer and suddenly he runs off to solo rambo a node far away and you stand next to the healer, unable to help

 

The healer, if they are paying attention (amongst all the other things they have to pay attention to) can actually cancel the guard on themselves. It's not uncommon, when I'm on solo-guard-node-duty, for some "tank" to come by and put a guard on me when the node gets attacked. And then they leave and forget to remove it. So I just click it off.

[Jherad]

It sucks to be a real tank in current normal games... Everyone is guarded so i cannot guard them and these "tanks" just dropping like flies.

 

Personally I think the guard from a 'real' tank should be allowed to overwrite the guard from a fake one.

[Nightkin]

I think the mechanic would get very screwy then, and I wouldn't trust bioware to implement it correctly. Despite how everyone casually throws out the "50% mitigation" claim for guard, that's not actually true. It's not just a flat "the guardee takes 50% less damage", it's a 50% TRANSFERENCE. The guarder takes that 50%, which is why tanks need those extra HP.

 

Now, you (and I ) might think, well, just make 25% go to each guarder if there are two, but then I think about how simple something like bolster SHOULD have been done, and how much bioware could mess up something as simple as dividing by 2, and I go "No, you know what, don't mess with the mechanics of guard. Just keep it the way it is."

 

 

 

The healer, if they are paying attention (amongst all the other things they have to pay attention to) can actually cancel the guard on themselves. It's not uncommon, when I'm on solo-guard-node-duty, for some "tank" to come by and put a guard on me when the node gets attacked. And then they leave and forget to remove it. So I just click it off.

Mm i agree with what you say, except for the possibility of two guard on one target. Part of this combat team came from warhammer online, and they brought that system with them. So the same mechanic for both games when it comes to taunts, guards etc. Only tanks in that game was a lot more sturdier. Now, in warhammer you could doube guard the same target but the dmg you took was the same no matter how many guards you got. The transfered dmg was, i believe, to the closest tank at the time.

[Banderal]

Mm i agree with what you say, except for the possibility of two guard on one target. Part of this combat team came from warhammer online, and they brought that system with them. So the same mechanic for both games when it comes to taunts, guards etc. Only tanks in that game was a lot more sturdier. Now, in warhammer you could doube guard the same target but the dmg you took was the same no matter how many guards you got. The transfered dmg was, i believe, to the closest tank at the time.

 

I wasn't tied to the "split the damage" mechanic (actually, I like the one you describe better). I was just saying that whatever they did, it would mostly likely be buggy.

 

As far as the original point (to be on topic )... yeah, I cannot fathom why they decided that it would be a good idea to let any AC from a class that had a tank use the guard. From what I understood about skank tanking, the ONLY reason a non-tank would switch to the tank stance in 4.X was to use that guard. And people have been "suggesting" for a long time that the tank stuff should be exclusive to tanks. So what did bioware do? They did make the stance exclusive to the tank-spec, but then made the actual guard ability free to all.

[tavrinDosa]

Nay guard effectiveness needed to be reduced not increased

[Nightkin]

Only explanation i can figure out is that Bioware with those good ol´ metrics, noticed people tried to skanktank A LOT!

And thus, made it easy to do so for anyone. Everyone benefits! Except...the actual tanks, who now hardly got anything to do in PvP....ah yeah, smart move. We have DPS classes, we have HEALS and we have tanks, wich we dont need anymore. Kinda, i mean for serious 4vs4 then a proper tank is likely better to use. But you get the drift.

[Jaryk]

Oh i agree and i know how the mechanic works since Biowares combat system is basically the same as from old Warhammer: Age of Reckoning.

Same combat system with guard and taunts.

 

A bit off topic, but I miss the pvp effect of detaunts from that game.

[Nightkin]

A bit off topic, but I miss the pvp effect of detaunts from that game.

The game still exist, private server and it is very active.

Just google Return of reckoning.

[Nadforce]

Now, i dont really dislike the slower pace of pvp due to how much dmg is mitigated all the time but...it creates weird situations where someone (lets say, 90% of the community) never manage to kill anyone except someone equally bad.

You should be disliking it. It is absolute poison on some maps, like voidstar, since a competent tankyhealy team is never down long enough to get a charge placed.

Or a ball runner in the sorc/juggerball maps is just not stoppable.

I can accept a slow(er) pace on alderan/novare/odessen, but even then it can become impossible to flip a point because reinforcements come back from spawn before you are done clearing.

 

Dont mistake me, i am not complaining about merc/comma, because they can be sent packing and are a non-issue when not backed by a healer.

It's the high mitigation (by guard or inherently on tanks) backed by healers that is what that can make those unbreakable point defenses. Might do 2.3M damage overall in a slugfest of a standoff, then look at healer, bang! He's at least double that in healing. Might as well have punched a training dummy the whole match.

 

And that is not a issue that is going to go away without major changes.

Healers are tuned to deal with the damage from FP and OPS bosses, under the mitigation that tanks have.

And that damage is set very high to prevent things from being too easy or even solo/duo able.

That results in a tank/healer lockdown in pvp because player dps is not tuned to deal with neither the raw healing nor the severe mitigation, least of all the combination of those two.

Most dont realize it because the majority is still below the bolster threshold, but it is just going to get worse.

We used to have Expertise stat to help curb it a bit, but that is not going to save anyone this time now that it is gone.

Gearing for both pve&pvp is made simple that way (accuracy issues aside), but it comes at the cost of worse balance in the absense of seperate pvp rules.

I.e, in pvp we need: nerf healing, nerf guard and nerf tank mitigation. They should still be relevant and able to contribute and have fun, but it is just far too good in capable hands as it stands.

[Nightkin]

You should be disliking it. It is absolute poison on some maps, like voidstar, since a competent tankyhealy team is never down long enough to get a charge placed.

Or a ball runner in the sorc/juggerball maps is just not stoppable.

I can accept a slow(er) pace on alderan/novare/odessen, but even then it can become impossible to flip a point because reinforcements come back from spawn before you are done clearing.

 

Dont mistake me, i am not complaining about merc/comma, because they can be sent packing and are a non-issue when not backed by a healer.

It's the high mitigation (by guard or inherently on tanks) backed by healers that is what that can make those unbreakable point defenses. Might do 2.3M damage overall in a slugfest of a standoff, then look at healer, bang! He's at least double that in healing. Might as well have punched a training dummy the whole match.

 

And that is not a issue that is going to go away without major changes.

Healers are tuned to deal with the damage from FP and OPS bosses, under the mitigation that tanks have.

And that damage is set very high to prevent things from being too easy or even solo/duo able.

That results in a tank/healer lockdown in pvp because player dps is not tuned to deal with neither the raw healing nor the severe mitigation, least of all the combination of those two.

Most dont realize it because the majority is still below the bolster threshold, but it is just going to get worse.

We used to have Expertise stat to help curb it a bit, but that is not going to save anyone this time now that it is gone.

Gearing for both pve&pvp is made simple that way (accuracy issues aside), but it comes at the cost of worse balance in the absense of seperate pvp rules.

I.e, in pvp we need: nerf healing, nerf guard and nerf tank mitigation. They should still be relevant and able to contribute and have fun, but it is just far too good in capable hands as it stands.

Yeah that has kind of been my point with this whole thread

[Volxen]

DPS tanks, or "skank tanks" as some like to call them, have single-handedly broken solo ranked. Specifically, imbalanced matches are created when one side has DPS capable of guarding, and the other side doesn't (a common occurrence). As I elaborated in another thread:

 

No, mercs aren’t the problem in solo ranked. The major problem with solo ranked is the fact that assassin/juggernaut/powertech DPS can guard. A team with one or two DPS who can guard has a massive advantage over a team with no DPS who can guard. As a pub player on the harbinger, a lot of the solo ranked matches I get thrown into consist of 3 DPS and 1 healer on each side. I often get placed into matches with compositions like 1 assassin DPS, 1 juggernaut DPS, 1 merc DPS, and 1 sorc healer vs 1 sentinel DPS, 1 commando DPS, 1 gunslinger DPS, and 1 sage healer. In such matches, both the merc DPS and the sorc healer will be guarded, so our team has to try and burst down both the assassin DPS and the juggernaut DPS before we can even begin to kill their healer. Whereas all of their DPS can immediately start focusing our healer, since we have no DPS capable of guarding. It's essentially a guaranteed win for the imps, unless they make a major mistake.

 

The imps in solo ranked understand this all too well, which is why 99.99999% of solo ranked games consist of at least one assassin DPS or juggernaut DPS who guards (actually, in most of my solo ranked matches lately two of the three DPS on the imp side are usually assassin or juggernaut). I see far, far more assassins and juggernauts in solo ranked than I do mercs. Unfortunately the pubs on harbinger have not caught on to just how game changing guard is in solo ranked, so the majority of the matches I get thrown into are unbalanced, with the imps having 1-2 guards and our side having none. I still try to enjoy solo ranked as much as I can, but it would be 100000000X more enjoyable if they would lock guard to the tanking discipline.

 

Mercs may be stronger than they have ever been before, but the impact that they have on the outcome of solo ranked matches vastly pales in comparison to the impact that guard has on the outcome of solo ranked matches.

 

Giving guard to DPS is analogous to giving a healer's big healing abilities to DPS specs. Would it be fair for DPS mercs to have progressive scan or kolto missle, or DPS sorcs to have roaming mend or innervate? No, of course it wouldn't be. In the same manner, DPS specs should never have had access to guard in the first place. The fix, of course, is simple: just lock guard to the tanking discipline. People have literally been saying this for years, hopefully Bioware will finally take notice and fix solo ranked.

Edited December 12, 2016 by Volxen

[GrandLordMenace]

DPS tanks, or "skank tanks" as some like to call them, have single-handedly broken solo ranked. Specifically, imbalanced matches are created when one side has DPS capable of guarding, and the other side doesn't (a common occurrence). As I elaborated in another thread:

 

 

 

Giving guard to DPS is analogous to giving a healer's big healing abilities to DPS specs. Would it be fair for DPS mercs to have progressive scan or kolto missle, or DPS sorcs to have roaming mend or innervate? No, of course it wouldn't be. In the same manner, DPS specs should never have had access to guard in the first place. The fix, of course, is simple: just lock guard to the tanking discipline. People have literally been saying this for years, hopefully Bioware will finally take notice and fix solo ranked.

 

LOL.

 

Adding to the total health pool is vastly superior to redistributing damage. If you take away guard, you take away the only reason certain specs are able to do anything in yolo ranked.

 

Be glad we can't wear tank gear and skank anymore as a dps, now THAT was cheap. But skanking rn simply redistributes damage, nothing more.