gamephil Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 (edited) Hmmm...I don't recall my Warrior using the phrase at all on her. I know at first Valk does. When she's killing Torian, I don't recall using the phrase on her, since you know she went to the one planet to break the conditioning. Might have used it in the mind scape when she shows up without any choice, but she's already dead by that time. However, I know I had my Warrior try. Asked her to join us to take down her father together. She spouts off with, I want you both dead. Vaylin didn't want redeemed. She wanted to the galaxy to burn. To feel the pain she had to grow up in. The writers give you chances to try, they just never work. I said plausible chances, which they don't give you a single time. But you do mention "the pain she had to grow up in", which is exactly what I think the writers were going for. I still think they blew it. Using the phrase is the entire point of Chapter 6. It's the entire plan, confront her while standing in a crowd of civilians, and use the phrase, not to actually stop her, but to show the people that she has a weakness. A weakness they have no power to exploit. After this, any chance to try that the writers give you is moot, because there is no way she is ever going to believe that you are not a pawn of her father. So, when you ask her about it in Chapter 8, I can't take it seriously, because you are either being controlled or just another creep out to hurt her, from her point of view. Chapter 1, you get to say something sympathetic, but end it with "Killing him won't heal your scars", which is utter nonsense to begin with and, further, in her state, isn't a great thing to say. Chapter 3, you get to talk about how you're both being manipulated. Almost a good one. Still not a real offer of help, though, and then Valk pops out and does the command phrase. Added to because then you listen to his nonsense of "If I hadn't conditioned her, you'd be dead", and can't respond with, say, "What nonsense, if you hadn't conditioned her this probably wouldn't be happening, you utter monster." This is the crux of most of my disgust with this whole thing: not only do you kill between one and three of the Emperor's victims, you also listen to the scum, the world-eating monster that destroyed his own family, and don't give him nearly enough backtalk. Chapter 8 was almost plausible, but you've already blown it by that point in a decision that BWA didn't feel was important enough to let you make but forced it on you in Chapter 6. Edited June 2, 2017 by gamephil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SithKoriandr Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 I said plausible chances, which they don't give you a single time. But you do mention "the pain she had to grow up in", which is exactly what I think the writers were going for. I still think they blew it. Using the phrase is the entire point of Chapter 6. It's the entire plan, confront her while standing in a crowd of civilians, and use the phrase, not to actually stop her, but to show the people that she has a weakness. A weakness they have no power to exploit. After this, any chance to try that the writers give you is moot, because there is no way she is ever going to believe that you are not a pawn of her father. So, when you ask her about it in Chapter 8, I can't take it seriously, because you are either being controlled or just another creep out to hurt her, from her point of view. Chapter 1, you get to say something sympathetic, but end it with "Killing him won't heal your scars", which is utter nonsense to begin with and, further, in her state, isn't a great thing to say. Chapter 3, you get to talk about how you're both being manipulated. Almost a good one. Still not a real offer of help, though, and then Valk pops out and does the command phrase. Added to because then you listen to his nonsense of "If I hadn't conditioned her, you'd be dead", and can't respond with, say, "What nonsense, if you hadn't conditioned her this probably wouldn't be happening, you utter monster." This is the crux of most of my disgust with this whole thing: not only do you kill between one and three of the Emperor's victims, you also listen to the scum, the world-eating monster that destroyed his own family, and don't give him nearly enough backtalk. Chapter 8 was almost plausible, but you've already blown it by that point in a decision that BWA didn't feel was important enough to let you make but forced it on you in Chapter 6. Yeah, but I think I still got to not use it and then someone else uses it instead. When I get my new Consular through to it, I'll check it again (my other close characters would never try to avoid using it ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamephil Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 (edited) Yeah, but I think I still got to not use it and then someone else uses it instead. When I get my new Consular through to it, I'll check it again (my other close characters would never try to avoid using it ) I will give you this: you just in two sentences wrote a better scene than the pros at Bioware. Good job. Plus, bonus points for wanting to check for yourself. Let us know how it goes. (deleted a bunch of stuff that was really unnecessary since you'll just play it) Edited June 3, 2017 by gamephil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamagsAwesome Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 I'll also take a look when I run through KotFE and KotET on my Knight to see if it varies by Force vs. non-Force classes, but I really don't have that much faith in this idiotic one-size-fits-all story format. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamephil Posted June 3, 2017 Share Posted June 3, 2017 I'll also take a look when I run through KotFE and KotET on my Knight to see if it varies by Force vs. non-Force classes, but I really don't have that much faith in this idiotic one-size-fits-all story format. Yeah, the only way I can make this make sense for all characters in my head is to assume that Valkorion was controlling them and giving them power. All PC's may very well come to the same end (regardless of my annoyance with the story, she IS leveling the base), but the path there just has too many moments that, say, an LS Consular should have done differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dartharroth Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 How I imagine the conversation going if you keep Arcann alive.... I just realized... they look a bit similar... and they both have a crazy sister... omg! are we the avatar???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackvinils Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 This topic is still open for discussion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamephil Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 (edited) This topic is still open for discussion? Why not? Memory is cheap and no one is being abusive, and anyone that doesn't want to comment can just go on by. (edited for clarity, the first sounded a bit abrasive) Edited June 16, 2017 by gamephil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamephil Posted July 2, 2017 Share Posted July 2, 2017 How I imagine the conversation going if you keep Arcann alive.... I just realized... they look a bit similar... and they both have a crazy sister... omg! are we the avatar???? No. If we were the Avatar, we would have both insisted on and actually found a way to take her alive. Probably by being instructed in a new Force technique by a giant lion turtle, but still. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulsutherland Posted July 13, 2017 Share Posted July 13, 2017 Wow ... surprised this is still going. So do you think Vaylin will be back, whether it be, ghost, in your mind, recorded message (etc ...) while we play with Scorpio's and C2-N2's droids on Iokath? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eshvara Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 Wow ... surprised this is still going. So do you think Vaylin will be back, whether it be, ghost, in your mind, recorded message (etc ...) while we play with Scorpio's and C2-N2's droids on Iokath? Probably not, I think everything Zakuul is over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldVengeance Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 (edited) I recently had an idea about how she could be brought back as an antagonist in a future story. Maybe her Force Ghost would try to posses the body of one of the still missing female Force Sensitive companions to get revenge on the Outlander. And then the Outlander could help their old companions or love interest banish Vaylin's spirit for good. That would also make Kira/Jaesa/Nadia/Ashara (or maybe Temple too?) feel important again and give us a chance to see how they might interact with Vaylin. The problem is that could only work for 5 out of the 8 classes, and would be really resource intensive unless they only pick one character each time. Edited July 17, 2017 by OldVengeance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulsutherland Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 I recently had an idea about how she could be brought back as an antagonist in a future story. Maybe her Force Ghost would try to posses the body of one of the still missing female Force Sensitive companions to get revenge on the Outlander. And then the Outlander could help their old companions or love interest banish Vaylin's spirit for good. That would also make Kira/Jaesa/Nadia/Ashara (or maybe Temple too?) feel important again and give us a chance to see how they might interact with Vaylin. The problem is that could only work for 5 out of the 8 classes, and would be really resource intensive unless they only pick one character each time. I suppose they could use the female character from all previous classes (Edit: Nvm ... won't work for the Trooper) Uhmm... random female npc from the past? On second thought, Dark Side Jaese might enjoy the power, in fact Jaese in general might be your ideal target for Vaylin's indoctrination. If you picked Dark Side Jease, maybe she went into Vaylin's arms willingly, where as if you told her to go LS, she was corrupted by Vaylin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldVengeance Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 Dark Jaesa might have certain similarities to Vaylin, but I don't think they would like eachother. Largely because their quest for power would be at the other's expense. Especially if the Outlander in question is the Sith Warrior. She was the first person I thought of though, I thought it would be entertaining to see them try to outdo eachother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulsutherland Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 They could always do a plot similar to Khem Vals. Maybe Jease was lured to Nathema (SP?) ... Spirit of Vaylin is haunting the place ... Jease gets captured by whatever is still loyal to Vaylin ... some space magic happens ... then you have to pick something like ... LS: Save Jease / Kill Vaylin's spirit DS: Kill Jease / Kill Vaylin's spirit DS2: Kill Jease / Allow Vaylin to take over Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldVengeance Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 (edited) I don't see much benefit in helping Vaylin posses a new host, whether it's Jaesa or anyone else. She's really going to want to kill the Outlander immediately afterward. Probably even if they helped her. Edited July 19, 2017 by OldVengeance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulsutherland Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 I don't see much benefit there would be in helping Vaylin posses a new host, whether it's Jaesa or anyone else. She's really going to want to kill the Outlander immediately afterward. Probably even if they helped her. Not the impression I got during the final KOTET chapter, but I haven't done them all so yeah, maybe your right. What if Vaylin's spirit 'split' like Revan's did? (not that I'm a fan of that) and the the 'good' Vaylin's spirit is stuck on Nathema? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldVengeance Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 She didn't seem particularly grateful to the Iokath droid that helped her regain control of the full Eternal Fleet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulsutherland Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 heh, that scene was great. Isn't she in our heads now after the final showdown? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldVengeance Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 I don't think so, unless Arcann and Senya are also potentially stuck in our heads. That would get crowded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulsutherland Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 I don't think so, unless Arcann and Senya are also potentially stuck in our heads. That would get crowded. Heh could be fun for the Inquisitor. Or is she in that Holocron? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulsutherland Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 What do you guys think about Vaylin's spirit causing the lightning storms on Odessen? (something that appears after chapter 8 is completed.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IoNonSoEVero Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 What do you guys think about Vaylin's spirit causing the lightning storms on Odessen? (something that appears after chapter 8 is completed.) I never noticed that it turned overcast and had storms! Neat that they made that change. Perhaps the Force balance in Odessen is temporarily out of whack thanks to the release of Dark energy from Vaylin? I do like the way the Alliance base shows damage after Chapter 8, though, when you're on the landing and there are all those cracks in the walls from Vaylin's battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulsutherland Posted August 22, 2017 Share Posted August 22, 2017 I never noticed that it turned overcast and had storms! Neat that they made that change. Perhaps the Force balance in Odessen is temporarily out of whack thanks to the release of Dark energy from Vaylin? I do like the way the Alliance base shows damage after Chapter 8, though, when you're on the landing and there are all those cracks in the walls from Vaylin's battle. She had just reached her potential .. so you never know. Persnally I want to see her make a return ... maybe throw in some 'Sith Voodoo' in there and boom .. works for me. Maybe she'll lure us out into the forest and throw us around like Valkorian did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishpeople Posted August 26, 2017 Share Posted August 26, 2017 What do you guys think about Vaylin's spirit causing the lightning storms on Odessen? (something that appears after chapter 8 is completed.) Never noticed that, I suppose that could be a cool way to bring Vaylin back to the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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