Senya needs to go

[Codedrago]

It is partly Senya's fault, but I do not take that as a knock against her. I understand where she's comming from even if I'm not a parent myself, but the point still remains that she did betray us. Pragmatically, she has proven herself as a threat against the alliance. Until Arcann and Vaylina re out of the picture, we know that she will most likely sabotauge our efforts in crucial moments because of how ourtargets are her children.

 

She cannot be trusted in this matter and thus only has two options for my character at least if she doesn't stay in hiding. Wait the war out in a cell, or find an early grave. Because unless Arcann and Vaylin are dead or redeemed, she could endanger everything the Alliance has gained.

[CorellianWannabe]

Hmmm, they seem to have let him survive for this very discussion; make you think of what to do with him when the time comes in the next go-around. BW and their moral choices. All part of the plan.

 

Ah, "moral choices". Red, blue, or green?

Edited October 31, 2016 by CorellianWannabe

[Mirandel]

At what point did someone ask her to do it?

 

I'm plenty well and good enough to allow anyone to kill arcaan. Myself included. She can stay back but we were not allowed that option were we? No we were not.

 

We were not allowed to remove Senya from this encounter because of some BS writing.

 

BS writing is a totally different story. There were, are and will be many more idiotic moments when by the law of any universe other then bad-writing universe our characters had to act differently. But (!) within the borders we are forced to operate to EXPECT a mother to kill her child or to help someone help to do so - IS a stupidity, or monstrosity. ESPECIALLY in case of Senya, who mentioned not a single time that her intend is to stop Arcan, not to kill him. If Commander did not listen - Commander does not deserve his post and it's his fault he did not see it coming. She never betrayed Alliance, because her commitment was to her children, you can not betray someone you never promised anything. If Commander had some expectations - it's all on Commanders had.

 

Again and again - yes, it's writing. Same with Koth stealing Gravestone (impossible in any normal universe), same with any other "hiccups" we had before. But as it is - Commander had all the rights to shoot the shuttle, though not as a punishment for treason - there were no treason! - but as a job-finisher in eliminating Arcan. If Senya chose to stay with her son, it's her choice, her presence should not influence Commander's decision (if the decision is to kill Arcan).

Edited October 31, 2016 by Mirandel

[Khevar]

Ah, "moral choices". Red, blue, or green?

/le sigh

 

I like to pretend that that game actually ended after I managed to broker a peace between the Quarians and the Geth.

[CorellianWannabe]

He can't give back all the lives back to the people he took it from, but he certainly can help you do something about his sister and potentially his dad. I'd assume that's why he's being kept alive.

 

Or because EA likes trolling their players with not one, but two cutscenes where 'FINISH HIM' led to 'lol nope'.

[Eshvara]

Or because EA likes trolling their players with not one, but two cutscenes where 'FINISH HIM' led to 'lol nope'.

 

Yeah that was just way too much teasing or whatchamaycallit.

[CorellianWannabe]

The only "argument" i'm seeing from some people is "but he killed millions of people" .... so have we and some of those were innocent and a lot of innocent people died due to our actions.

 

We're just as much the "bad guys" in this story as he is yet people seem so keen to kill him.

 

Really? My trooper who started the game defending the Republic from an unprovoked attack by the Sith Empire is just as bad as the guy who started two wars and bombs planets when he throws a tantrum? Hell, he even massacres his own Force-sensitives when he throws a tantrum (and didn't Koth desert when Arcann ordered civilians directly targeted?).

 

I suppose the crew of the Enola Gay in WW2 are morally as bad as those who ran the ovens in Auschwitz, then?

[CorellianWannabe]

I do when they act like we haven't done the exact same thing.

 

If people are talking about Arcann like he's the monster then it's incredibly hypocritical.

 

 

 

If you can look the other way as someone kills them then we have differing views on our children.

 

Can you look the other way as they kill someone else? If so your child should be removed from you as you are too selfish to think about the fact that you and your child do not live in a bubble and society has to deal with them. I don't care that Ted Bundy's mom thought he was a good boy- the mothers of a few dozen women (who knows how many for certain?) would beg to differ.

[CorellianWannabe]

QFTT

 

You can blame the parent for raising a monster, you can punish that parent along with the monster child, but you can not call said parent "traitor" for doing what any parent would - protecting s\his child. You can not expect from a mother to kill her child. Sure, there are "parents" who do just that - crazy sociopaths, but normal behavior and normal expectations from a parent is to protect your child.

 

As much as I hate to say it, Koth was right from the beginning - Senya simply should not have being in Alliance. If you believed for a second that a mother can kill her baby you are either sick yourself and find it's normal, or you are incredibly stupid. Either way, you should not be a Commander of an Alliance.

 

So the plot makes player characters acts like morons- sadly that's nothing new.

 

Here's a nearly 5 year old post talking about railroaded plots where the PC is made to be an idiot.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=188296

[Mirandel]

Can you look the other way as they kill someone else? If so your child should be removed from you as you are too selfish to think about the fact that you and your child do not live in a bubble and society has to deal with them. I don't care that Ted Bundy's mom thought he was a good boy- the mothers of a few dozen women (who knows how many for certain?) would beg to differ.

 

You are obviously is not a parent. But no matter - Senya DID NOT "look the other way" when her children were killing other people. She was urging Commander to stop them and helped as much as possible to do so. STOP them, not kill.

[CorellianWannabe]

Unfortunately, in the SWTOR universe, they do not necessarily become less powerful when killed.

 

The more powerful the force user, and the more angry they are, the more likely they are to NOT be returned to the force, but to stick around and cause mayhem.

 

Mind you, I'm not advocating for an "Arcann Redemption arc". I doubt that such a story would be told well by the current writing team.

 

I'm simply saying that your logic is flawed. Killing a dark side force user won't necessarily fix anything, since they tend to stick around and continue to cause mayhem. If the option to redeem exists, it would result in a safer universe than simply killing them.

 

Depends- inquisitors have a means of dealing with force spirits, and not all of them are cackling psychopaths.

[CorellianWannabe]

You are obviously is not a parent. But no matter - Senya DID NOT "look the other way" when her children were killing other people. She was urging Commander to stop them and helped as much as possible to do so. STOP them, not kill.

 

I've seen the effect this sort of blind 'love' can have. My cousin was convicted of child molestation. After he was released from prison my aunt and uncle took him back in, which led to his younger sister installing a deadbolt for her bedroom. Oddly enough she doesn't have the best relationships with men.

 

Any parent that would look at their child solely in the halo of this 'bubble of love' is selfish and will likely lead to the harm of others (but hey, that body found isn't their kid, right?)

 

So was the PC supposed to beat Arcann within an inch of his life, then get the whole family some group therapy? Make Arcann have a time-out?

Edited October 31, 2016 by CorellianWannabe

[Quraswren]

BS writing is a totally different story. There were, are and will be many more idiotic moments when by the law of any universe other then bad-writing universe our characters had to act differently. But (!) within the borders we are forced to operate to EXPECT a mother to kill her child or to help someone help to do so - IS a stupidity, or monstrosity. ESPECIALLY in case of Senya, who mentioned not a single time that her intend is to stop Arcan, not to kill him. If Commander did not listen - Commander does not deserve his post and it's his fault he did not see it coming. She never betrayed Alliance, because her commitment was to her children, you can not betray someone you never promised anything. If Commander had some expectations - it's all on Commanders had.

 

Again and again - yes, it's writing. Same with Koth stealing Gravestone (impossible in any normal universe), same with any other "hiccups" we had before. But as it is - Commander had all the rights to shoot the shuttle, though not as a punishment for treason - there were no treason! - but as a job-finisher in eliminating Arcan. If Senya chose to stay with her son, it's her choice, her presence should not influence Commander's decision (if the decision is to kill Arcan).

 

Actually she knew the my intentions from the beginning when she joined my group and our little excursion. It was in a conversation about arcaan and me killing him. She had her own plans and betrayed her commander for her own selfish gains. I made no attempt to ever hide what would happen to arcaan. She stuck around to do nothing but undermine the operation. What she says means nothing because as part of the alliance, she is under my orders.

 

She decided to go off on her own, do something entirely different from the overall mission. she is a traitor and betrayed us. If you played that out differently thats on you but she betrayed the alliance. Went behind my back and helped the enemy instead of staying out of it. Running off with her murderous son. The commander had every right to kill her as punishment for betraying them all. She will share his fate for her choices, for her undermining the misson which was to kill arcaan. Her personal mission doesn't mean jack.

[SithKoriandr]

I've seen the effect this sort of blind 'love' can have. My cousin was convicted of child molestation. After he was released from prison my aunt and uncle took him back in, which led to his younger sister installing a deadbolt for her bedroom. Oddly enough she doesn't have the best relationships with men.

 

Any parent that would look at their child solely in the halo of this 'bubble of love' is selfish and will likely lead to the harm of others (but hey, that body found isn't their kid, right?)

 

So was the PC supposed to beat Arcann within an inch of his life, then get the whole family some group therapy? Make Arcann have a time-out?

 

That however, is not the star wars universe.

[fovzwk]

Oh man, do I love Senya. Just for all these impotent fits of rage from (mostly) edge-lord darkside players on the forum she causes. Anyways in response to all these complaints I propose a fourth dialogue option for every conversation which basically always has the PC stamp their foot petulantly while whining at whatever NPC they are currently talking with: "Death sentence! Respect muh authority!"

Nobody will actually respect your authority naturally, since if players actually got to kill whomever they wanted the story would go from the current overall medicore to abyssmally awful within minutes, but at least then you can voice your displeasure.

Edited October 31, 2016 by fovzwk

[JediRelentless]

Senya DID NOT "look the other way" when her children were killing other people..

 

But when Senya had the chance to stop and capture Vaylin, Senya let Vaylin get away.

Then Senya claims "the blood is on OUR hands" after Vaylin destroys 5 planets of innocent victims.

Then later she helps Arcann escape.

Edited October 31, 2016 by JediRelentless

[CorellianWannabe]

Oh man, do I love Senya. Just for all these impotent fits of rage from (mostly) edge-lord darkside players on the forum she causes. Anyways in response to all these complaints I propose a fourth dialogue option for every conversation which basically always has the PC stamp their foot petulantly while whining at whatever NPC they are currently talking with: "Death sentence! Respect muh authority!"

Nobody will actually respect your authority naturally, since if players actually got to kill whomever they wanted the story would go from the current overall medicore to abyssmally awful within minutes, but at least then you can voice your displeasure.

 

Then EA shouldn't have put the character 'in charge' of the Alliance. I didn't make my trooper an apparent figurehead, the writer did that.

 

But the story is already abysmal, so nothing could make it worse (unless the Gungans join).

[Tsetso]

Then EA shouldn't have put the character 'in charge' of the Alliance. I didn't make my trooper an apparent figurehead, the writer did that.

 

But the story is already abysmal, so nothing could make it worse (unless the Gungans join).

 

Wanna bet?

[Costello]

However you want to sell Senya giving lip service to stopping her kids ultimately she betrayed you.

 

Did she at any time make it clear she wanted to redeem her children? hell no. She was all about them being stopped and brought to justice.

 

Did she when she had a change of heart trust you enough to take Arcann to the alliance base? hell no. She disobeys any orders to bring him in and jumps to hyper space.

 

Her actions are deceitful and she knows them to be wrong so she doesn't even try to justify them or make the case for Arcann or Vaylins redemption.

 

But worse is it has the possibility to destroy any good reputation the story has. We are about to head directly into a pre-school story where the parent is saying 'If you just admit you did a bad thing everything will be forgiven.' There is a point that redemption isn't possible, it isn't justified and it shouldn't be considered in the story as you take any consequence or realism out of play.

 

As long as you say sorry everything will be right garbage, cant be allow in as it would be dire for the creative team, your daddy was mean to you that is a get out of jail free pass, anybody whose's daddy was ever mean to them should be able to do whatever they want! Saying your sorry will magically fix everything. They do that and they may as well rebrand this Fairy Tale Kingdom where everyone rides unicorns and every class is changed to a cuddle monster where your only action is cuddle.

 

If they offer redemption and forgiveness for Arcann and Senya it will be clear that the 'creative team's' target audience is 4 year olds. And I am sure they haven't sunk that low.

 

On the point of parents versus non parents, some what of an odd choice to try and correlate real world ethics with a character in a story who has done worse things than any human ever has. But fair to say a parent may defend their child no matter what, that then equally holds true of any family members. So if Senya's actions are justified then so to would any action of any family member of anyone who has been harmed by Arcann or Zakuul or could see him as a potential threat to their family. A some what ridiculous statement but ultimately would amount to the same as anyone could murder Arcann or Senya as long as they had family effected by them or could be effected and they too would have to be forgiven, with Senya supporting their action as in support of their family. This though is why Justice (something Senya claimed to want) is blind and does not condone actions based on family ties.

Edited October 31, 2016 by Costello

[blowupwookies]

Well i actually like Senya, especially after the new trailer. But i dont mind to have the option to end her on my dark side characters. The one that needs to go for sure is Koth aka Little B...antha poop

[Tippor]

Personal interpretation: Senya is devoted to her children. She genuinely loves them, but she knows there is no help for Vailyn. Vailyn was dangerous even as a small child and Senya tried to stifle it before it got tapped into. She failed, but truly believes she can help Arcann. I don't believe she thinks she can help Vailyn though. However, she is not loyal to the alliance and I've always thought she needed to die for that reason. I also do NOT trust Lana. At all. Lana has her own motives, we just have yet to see them. She's using us.

[Mirandel]

So if Senya's actions are justified then so to would any action of any family member of anyone who has been harmed by Arcann or Zakuul or could see him as a potential threat to their family..

 

And who said otherwise? Of course all families and not families (Lana, for example, did not loose any relative in the conflict, did she?) not only allowed but must act against Arcann meaning to kill him (or not - depends what do you count as a real punishment).

 

However you want to sell Senya giving lip service to stopping her kids ultimately she betrayed you.

 

Did Senya promised you to kill or allow to kill her kids? No. Did she swear any loyalty to you? No. She was voluntarily helping you to stop her children. Where is betrayal?

 

You think she deserves to dye - it's a justified though. But betrayal is all on you - YOU decided she will allow to kill her kids against common sense. You did not listen her, when she talked about "he does not deserve death", and ignored all disapprovals in dialogs about future of her kids. You allow her to go on the mission (ok, not you, writers, but we have to work with what we have). It's all your commander's doings.

 

It's punishing Senya not for her crimes but for failing YOUR expectations. Ok for DS character, questionable motive for LS.

 

Same with Scorpio, that should not have been anywhere near Gravestone but we had to take her and get all we deserved for that.

[Khevar]

Did Senya promised you to kill or allow to kill her kids? No. Did she swear any loyalty to you? No. She was voluntarily helping you to stop her children. Where is betrayal?

Did Scorpio swear loyalty to you? No. She was voluntarily helping you to take over the Eternal Fleet. :eek:

 

Do you see the parallel?

 

1. You join a group, who has made their goals and intentions very clear from the outset, and

2. Pretend to support those goals and intentions (while having your own agenda), only to

3. Violate the trust of that group by going AGAINST those intentions (with no forewarning).

 

This is textbook betrayal.

 

Senya could have made her intentions known to my light-sided Jedi Consular. Having redeemed Lord Vivicar, and done everything possible to save Syo Bakarn, my Consular is no stranger to the concept of saving someone from the darkness.

 

But Senya said nothing, and instead used my Alliance to further her own ends.

Edited October 31, 2016 by Khevar

[Darkside]

I don't put all the blame on her but in the end her true colors showed up. Shes a traitor and she'll die like one.

 

Right along side her murderous son who killing millions of innocence, her psychotic daughter and her totally screwed up husband who has done far worse.

 

The only good that came out of that family was Thexen and hes dead.

 

Thexan was just as evil and deserving of death. Sure, he loves his brother, but did you forget about his murdering of countless Jedi and Sith prior to his death?

Edited October 31, 2016 by Darkside

[Darkside]

However you want to sell Senya giving lip service to stopping her kids ultimately she betrayed you.

 

Did she at any time make it clear she wanted to redeem her children? hell no. She was all about them being stopped and brought to justice.

 

Did she when she had a change of heart trust you enough to take Arcann to the alliance base? hell no. She disobeys any orders to bring him in and jumps to hyper space.

 

Her actions are deceitful and she knows them to be wrong so she doesn't even try to justify them or make the case for Arcann or Vaylins redemption.

 

But worse is it has the possibility to destroy any good reputation the story has. We are about to head directly into a pre-school story where the parent is saying 'If you just admit you did a bad thing everything will be forgiven.' There is a point that redemption isn't possible, it isn't justified and it shouldn't be considered in the story as you take any consequence or realism out of play.

 

As long as you say sorry everything will be right garbage, cant be allow in as it would be dire for the creative team, your daddy was mean to you that is a get out of jail free pass, anybody whose's daddy was ever mean to them should be able to do whatever they want! Saying your sorry will magically fix everything. They do that and they may as well rebrand this Fairy Tale Kingdom where everyone rides unicorns and every class is changed to a cuddle monster where your only action is cuddle.

 

If they offer redemption and forgiveness for Arcann and Senya it will be clear that the 'creative team's' target audience is 4 year olds. And I am sure they haven't sunk that low.

 

On the point of parents versus non parents, some what of an odd choice to try and correlate real world ethics with a character in a story who has done worse things than any human ever has. But fair to say a parent may defend their child no matter what, that then equally holds true of any family members. So if Senya's actions are justified then so to would any action of any family member of anyone who has been harmed by Arcann or Zakuul or could see him as a potential threat to their family. A some what ridiculous statement but ultimately would amount to the same as anyone could murder Arcann or Senya as long as they had family effected by them or could be effected and they too would have to be forgiven, with Senya supporting their action as in support of their family. This though is why Justice (something Senya claimed to want) is blind and does not condone actions based on family ties.

 

I agree with this line of reasoning. Here's a correlation so some can understand your points easier. Would we be okay with giving Hitler redemption, just because he feels sorry, or has daddy issues? Arcann in the story, like Hitler in real life, has caused untold death and destruction. So it's okay not redeem him for the sheer amount of atrocity, since we are neither God, nor the force.