Senya needs to go

[Eshvara]

And in that, there is no redemption story that makes up for what he did.

 

 

 

If he's kept alive is the real question. I personally don't think you need him at all at this point in the game.

 

 

 

Assumption at loss of life at this point at this point is mute but yes, Valkorion will get his as well if bw lets me. Just like the rest of that warped family.

 

 

 

I see no reason to like arcann given the story we have played through. There really is nothing he can do to atone for what he's done. His father is of course worse but both can be dealt with in a similar way for there actions. One killed all live on a planet and millions across the universe. The other killing millions of his own people in a half assed attempt to get at you.

 

I'd say their both striving for first place on who can be the worst. The reasonable people try to get rid of that kind of evil in the universe. Unreasonable are the ones looking for romance and a redemption arc in a mass murderer.

Yeah we sure had a great chance of damaging Valkorion when we "tried"

Assuming Arcann being the "unlikely new ally" kind of proves wed probably need him for something. Whether that's Vaylin or Valkorion. Nobody said you have to like him.

 

Whatever happens after that I assume is up to the player.

[Sith-Viscera]

After playing through KOTFE a few times, I've come to the realization that Senya is the reason for like all the bad stuff going on in the game currently.

 

Some spoilers.

 

 

Aside from the fact that she birthed all three children, she had a chance to kill Vaylin during their duel but let her live. Then of course, she takes Arcann away from us at the very end, and we have no idea what's become of them. Arcann, the most dangerous idiot in the galaxy.

 

 

 

How is Senya not a direct threat at this point? Even my LS Captain America-styled Jedi tried to kill her at the end because of what she was doing. It was literally the only DS choice I made on that particular character throughout the entire expansion.

 

I hope in KOTET we have the option of finishing the job.

 

Well then if thats the case then all the Problems in the Modern Star Wars Movie universe, is all caused by the Sky Walkers, Starting with Aniken. And you can Blame Qui-Gon for discovering him and Obi wan for training him. Instead of doing all that. If they would of had the force insight they, or i should say, Qui-gon would of killed Aniken, than Obi wan wouldnt of ever trained him and he would of never fell to the dark side and become Vader. there for there be no Luke and Princess Leia nor, no Leia and Han and no Kylo Ren. So with that said. Would the war even be a war if it wasnt for the Sky walkers and their paths being the reason to all the bad stuff, as you put it. Or would their be just a battle and the Empire would of won easily? I mean What if and What Might of Been?

 

If we pick apart all the great stories of Films & Novels and thought of them similar to your Premise, than they wouldn't be Great. And that sucks for ones, Imagination......

 

Take Care & Be Well....

[Quraswren]

Yeah we sure had a great chance of damaging Valkorion when we "tried"

 

If at first you don't succeed try and try again. No time to be a quitter.

 

Assuming Arcann being the "unlikely new ally" kind of proves wed probably need him for something. Whether that's Vaylin or Valkorion. Nobody said you have to like him.

 

Whatever happens after that I assume is up to the player.

 

I can only hope thats not some forced story point bw shoehorns in. The game play to what happens in cut scenes is bad enough. A mediocre story made worse if I got to at this point team up with arcann.

[Eshvara]

If at first you don't succeed try and try again. No time to be a quitter.

 

 

But Arcann should quit In trying to better his life? You're kind of contradicting yourself. But as I said before, no discussion to be had!

 

We can just agree to disagree and see where the story ends up on November 29.

[Quraswren]

But Arcann should quit In trying to better his life?

 

He's been trying to better is life since he killed Val. Doesn't mean you let evil continue due to some live interest BS much less pretend there is some redemption in what hes done.

 

You're kind of contradicting yourself. But as I said before, no discussion to be had!

 

Not really. He's always needed to die. Thats never changed. Hey can TRY anything he wants. Me making sure he's dead doesn't mean he has to give up anything at this point as it doesn't change whats he done in the story. No contradiction at all.

 

We can just agree to disagree and see where the story ends up on November 29.

 

It's clear we wont agree as there is nothing bw could write at this point to redeem arcaan as he cannot bring millions back to life and thus no way he can really see redemption. Always wondering when that next tantrum he has causes a backslide and his DS comes through once again.

[Khevar]

Unreasonable are the ones looking for romance and a redemption arc in a mass murderer of millions of innocent people.

How about a redemption arc for a mass murderer that included little children?

 

 

Do you think it would be a better story if Vader were killed instead of Anakain being redeemed?

 

I'm reminded of a parallel in a Jim Butcher book called "Death Masks". Characters called "Knights of the Cross", fight members of the "Order of the Blackened Denarius". Members of which have perpetrated some of the worst atrocities in history (Black Plague, anyone?).

 

And yet, the knights strive to redeem, rather than kill. Anytime you kill one, another will take their place. But those who are redeemed reduce the amount of evil in the world, and tend to join the "good guys"

 

Arcann being redeemed doesn't exactly strike me as good storytelling. But this is more due to the fact that his character has exclusively been presented as a caricature with ZERO depth.

 

But in the grand scheme of things, someone who falls to the dark and is then redeemed can join the good fight and can at least try to atone. Someone who falls to the dark and is then killed (in the SWTOR universe anyway) will simply persist as an evil force ghost causing chaos and problems for eons to come.

 

/2cr

[Quraswren]

How about a redemption arc for a mass murderer that included little children?

 

 

Do you think it would be a better story if Vader were killed instead of Anakain being redeemed?

 

At no point did I think vader should have been given a redemption arc given the actions we knew at the time. That made much worse when we found out the extent of his actions later. One good action doesn't make him redeemed in my eyes but at least he died no matter what. IF bw wants to pull a bs story of redemption and still let me send him on to be with vader I can live with but by no means would I consider him redeemed for the actions bw had him do.

 

There just isn't anything either one could do to be redeemed.

Maybe arcaan and vader can discuss their atrocities when I arrange the meeting?

 

I'm reminded of a parallel in a Jim Butcher book called "Death Masks". Characters called "Knights of the Cross", fight members of the "Order of the Blackened Denarius". Members of which have perpetrated some of the worst atrocities in history (Black Plague, anyone?).

 

And yet, the knights strive to redeem, rather than kill. Anytime you kill one, another will take their place. But those who are redeemed reduce the amount of evil in the world, and tend to join the "good guys"

 

Arcann being redeemed doesn't exactly strike me as good storytelling. But this is more due to the fact that his character has exclusively been presented as a caricature with ZERO depth.

 

But in the grand scheme of things, someone who falls to the dark and is then redeemed can join the good fight and can at least try to atone. Someone who falls to the dark and is then killed (in the SWTOR universe anyway) will simply persist as an evil force ghost causing chaos and problems for eons to come.

 

/2cr

 

It's possible he will be a ghost but I'll deal with that when it happens. If he truly wanted to do good, even dead he would do good. Plus, I see no reason to need a pretender like arcaan at this point with the group I have assembled. Arcaan is like the guy on the losing side who at the last second switches PVP sides to take part a win. I can't say I care for it that kind of writing.

 

I have plenty of actual companions that are doing good and I have no doubt they want him dead as well.

Edited October 31, 2016 by Quraswren

[SithKoriandr]

Whoa whoa whoa! I've seen Robot Chicken! Palpatine was totally redeemed.

 

As for Senya and her children. Talk about realistic. How many time have you seen a new program where the mother of the murderer says stuff like their child is still good, doesn't even deserve to be in jail, blames someone else for the child's wrong doings (even if the child doesn't)?

 

She was never going to kill her children.

 

As for who's fault it is, maybe it's time the child take some personal accountability. However, they were raised by the Emperor, which is just going to mess with someone

[Gomla]

The only "argument" i'm seeing from some people is "but he killed millions of people" .... so have we and some of those were innocent and a lot of innocent people died due to our actions.

 

We're just as much the "bad guys" in this story as he is yet people seem so keen to kill him.

[TUXs]

The only "argument" i'm seeing from some people is "but he killed millions of people" ....

You need a better reason than that??

[JediRelentless]

 

As I said, it boils down to those with children and those without.

 

I think that's bull. I'm a parent. I would never act so selfishly.

[Khevar]

If he truly wanted to do good, even dead he would do good.

Every redemption story I've read includes influence on the part of others.

 

It's unlikely that any dark-side villain (who is capable of being redeemed), would suddenly become "good" upon their death all on their own accord.

It's possible he will be a ghost but I'll deal with that when it happens.

What about all the people he would corrupt / kill / destroy until you "deal with that"?

 

Consider Exar Kun. How much trouble did he cause the Jedi Order (and the galaxy, for that matter) AFTER his death? Could Kevin Anderson have made a better story with Exar Kun being redeemed prior to his death? Possibly. (Although I wouldn't be hopeful -- Kevin is a pretty terrible writer, IMO.)

 

But HAD he been redeemed prior to death, the Star Wars universe would have been a SIGNIFICANTLY safer and better place than it was with him just "dead" and causing chaos for the next several millennia.

Edited October 31, 2016 by Khevar

[Gomla]

You need a better reason than that??

 

I do when they act like we haven't done the exact same thing.

 

If people are talking about Arcann like he's the monster then it's incredibly hypocritical.

 

I think that's bull. I'm a parent. I would never act so selfishly.

 

If you can look the other way as someone kills them then we have differing views on our children.

[Costello]

She has to die.

 

In short she betrayed you, she betrayed the Alliance, she betrayed Zakuul and she betrayed the Galaxy. She is proud of what she did and would do it again without a second thought, she put her own interests ahead of everyone else. If that can be forgiven it means that any selfish action is completely forgivable long as they say I did what I wanted and screw you commander.

 

Your command would fall apart in seconds as would any chance of ordering troops to invade zakuul or fight for you. I just hope the writers don't make letting her live as the light side and best choice in which love conquers all and makes the galaxy a better place. Cause if they take ToR down that route then they really have thrown in the towel for the story.

[SithKoriandr]

The only "argument" i'm seeing from some people is "but he killed millions of people" .... so have we and some of those were innocent and a lot of innocent people died due to our actions.

 

We're just as much the "bad guys" in this story as he is yet people seem so keen to kill him.

 

Ummm...I may be lost. Where exactly did my Jedi kill millions of people?

[JediRelentless]

If you can look the other way as someone kills them then we have differing views on our children.

 

If you can look the other way while someone you're responsible for, your children, kill a countless amount of innocent people then we have differing views regarding the things that matter most.

Edited October 31, 2016 by JediRelentless

[Mirandel]

Regardless, that would be my child. There is no way I could bring myself to kill them or see someone else do it if I was in a position to help them.

 

You are right, it's completely unacceptable but that's still my child.

 

As I said, it boils sown to those with children and those without. While one person will see the monster that murdered billions, a parent will see the child they watched grow up The child they love.

 

QFTT

 

You can blame the parent for raising a monster, you can punish that parent along with the monster child, but you can not call said parent "traitor" for doing what any parent would - protecting s\his child. You can not expect from a mother to kill her child. Sure, there are "parents" who do just that - crazy sociopaths, but normal behavior and normal expectations from a parent is to protect your child.

 

As much as I hate to say it, Koth was right from the beginning - Senya simply should not have being in Alliance. If you believed for a second that a mother can kill her baby you are either sick yourself and find it's normal, or you are incredibly stupid. Either way, you should not be a Commander of an Alliance.

[Eshvara]

Ummm...I may be lost. Where exactly did my Jedi kill millions of people?

 

We never had such large scale deaths on our personal hands, butthe empire nor republic are innocent in the weather handle people.

 

As for Sith, they have killed plenty of people and tortured. I personally did not in my story,but friends did. We aren't people who deserve to live either. Or is it suddenly ok to kill 10-20 people just cause it isn't millions?

[eartharioch]

The only "argument" i'm seeing from some people is "but he killed millions of people" .... so have we and some of those were innocent and a lot of innocent people died due to our actions.

 

We're just as much the "bad guys" in this story as he is yet people seem so keen to kill him.

 

None of my characters has ever killed an innocent person.

#EverybodyIsGuiltyOfSomething

[Tsetso]

Ummm...I may be lost. Where exactly did my Jedi kill millions of people?

 

If you add all the kill achievements from locations, events, companions, etc. maybe it will add up to a million

[Quraswren]

Every redemption story I've read includes influence on the part of others.

 

It's unlikely that any dark-side villain (who is capable of being redeemed), would suddenly become "good" upon their death all on their own accord.

 

Unlikely but not impossible. If he was really good, then he can do good as a force spirit. He no longer needs to be part of the living.

 

What about all the people he would corrupt / kill / destroy until you "deal with that"?

 

Then how good was he really if all that is to happen? All the more reason to make arcaan one with the force.

 

Consider Exar Kun. How much trouble did he cause the Jedi Order (and the galaxy, for that matter) AFTER his death? Could Kevin Anderson have made a better story with Exar Kun being redeemed prior to his death? Possibly. (Although I wouldn't be hopeful -- Kevin is a pretty terrible writer, IMO.)[/quote/

 

I think you answered your own question there. Was really that good story writing? No it was not. If I got to put up with bad story writing anyway, I might as well rid the universe of such evils as the Valkorion family.

 

But HAD he been redeemed prior to death, the Star Wars universe would have been a SIGNIFICANTLY safer and better place than it was with him just "dead" and causing chaos for the next several millennia.

 

Coulda, woulda shoulda as if redeemed was possible in that case. You cannot be redeemed from teh atrocities they have committed. Sure, the SWTOR has some cop out of redemption at the end to imply you might not be evil in the afterlife but I'll take my chances with arcaan and his family.

 

They are too powerful to be left alive. Too evil for my tastes to be left around and if they want to cause trouble as a ghost. I'll deal with that when its time as well. Kill off millions of people and some blockhead writer shoehorns in a weak redemption at the end just as they are already beaten. No thank you.

[Quraswren]

QFTT

 

You can blame the parent for raising a monster, you can punish that parent along with the monster child, but you can not call said parent "traitor" for doing what any parent would - protecting s\his child. You can not expect from a mother to kill her child. Sure, there are "parents" who do just that - crazy sociopaths, but normal behavior and normal expectations from a parent is to protect your child.

 

As much as I hate to say it, Koth was right from the beginning - Senya simply should not have being in Alliance. If you believed for a second that a mother can kill her baby you are either sick yourself and find it's normal, or you are incredibly stupid. Either way, you should not be a Commander of an Alliance.

 

At what point did someone ask her to do it?

 

I'm plenty well and good enough to allow anyone to kill arcaan. Myself included. She can stay back but we were not allowed that option were we? No we were not.

 

We were not allowed to remove Senya from this encounter because of some BS writing. There should have never been a conflict as you left her behind. Mother or not ,her children are evil. There is no room for redemption and Koth was right. She should have been left out but instead we are forced to reply her mommy issues as she betrays us and the group we built that is designed for killing off arcaan and his sister as well as removing their father because we know what he is capable of as well. Like father, like son.

 

As a parent, I'd have to remove myself and let justice be done. I got my own kids but if they become murdering, psychopaths. Well there is no redemption from that so justice be served. Just let it happen swiftly.

 

We never had such large scale deaths on our personal hands, butthe empire nor republic are innocent in the weather handle people.

 

Funny, I saved as many as humanly possible. If they died it wasn't at my hands.

 

As for Sith, they have killed plenty of people and tortured. I personally did not in my story,but friends did. We aren't people who deserve to live either. Or is it suddenly ok to kill 10-20 people just cause it isn't millions?

 

We'll we know the sith and empire are about backstabbing and one ups and whatever else kind of kill your neighbor if it helps you mentality. They have killed plenty and not indeed not deserving. So we'll agree on that.

Edited October 31, 2016 by Quraswren

[SithKoriandr]

If you add all the kill achievements from locations, events, companions, etc. maybe it will add up to a million

 

You mean those achievements that can be spread out between characters? Also, likely not actually part of the actual story.

 

Just running through the streets killing anything that attacks you first, seems more a game mechanic and less of a story one.

[Khevar]

They are too powerful to be left alive.

Unfortunately, in the SWTOR universe, they do not necessarily become less powerful when killed.

 

The more powerful the force user, and the more angry they are, the more likely they are to NOT be returned to the force, but to stick around and cause mayhem.

 

Mind you, I'm not advocating for an "Arcann Redemption arc". I doubt that such a story would be told well by the current writing team.

 

I'm simply saying that your logic is flawed. Killing a dark side force user won't necessarily fix anything, since they tend to stick around and continue to cause mayhem. If the option to redeem exists, it would result in a safer universe than simply killing them.

Edited October 31, 2016 by Khevar

[Quraswren]

Unfortunately, in the SWTOR universe, they do not necessarily become less powerful when killed.

 

The more powerful the force user, and the more angry they are, the more likely they are to NOT be returned to the force, but to stick around and cause mayhem.

 

Mind you, I'm not advocating for an "Arcann Redemption arc". I doubt that such a story would be told well by the current writing team.

 

I'm simply saying that your logic is flawed. Killing a dark side force user won't necessarily fix anything, since they tend to stick around and continue to cause mayhem. If the option to redeem exists, it would result in a safer universe than simply killing them.

 

I'll take my chances as others have when dealing with such blatant evil force users.. He cannot be left alive so dealing with his force ghost should it stick around will also happen should that be necessary. If he really was good, then his ghost should represent that aspect. If it's not, then it didn't matter. He was trouble either way.

Edited October 31, 2016 by Quraswren