Why Macros belong in TOR.

[caveslug]

Couple thoughts on macros.

 

1. PvP is about competition and if there are no macros for anyone then you are not at any disadvantage. I understand that you might want macros to make the game easier but if you are talking about competition you are not hurt by the lack of macros.

 

2. PVE. I also play Rift and it has the most robust macro system I have seen. It's so robust most rotations are reduced to spaming two or three macros. Nothing quite like running a raid where your rotation consists of "1-1-1-2" over and over again. After a while you forget what the thing is even doing but if you want to max dps you need to use them.

 

Macros make a game easier to play but they aren't required. I know I don't want to see another game with the mindless macro spam that Rift is.

 

This might be unknown to you, but the game devs have full control over the macro system. Of what it can and can't do, they have full control over how many action a single macro can perform.

 

You pointed out Rift as a bad example, I will point out WoW as a good one. You can't chain abilities in the WoW system, they took out that function because Devs have full control over the system.

[FourTwent]

If you ask any competitive PvP player in WoW, focus and macro functionality are absolutely vital to maximize efficiency. In addition, many healers will find their ability to effectively heal a large group impacted by a lack of mouse-over macros, another staple of the competitive WoW PvP and PvE communities.

 

This is actually false(and generalizing it to say ANY is of course where you goofed up). Most competitive PvPers that I've talked to all believe that combat macros dumb down the skill cap in any game.

 

Devs talked about mouse over healing at the Guild Summit. I'm pretty sure they're OK with that, and will hardcode it into the game itself eventually. But even this isn't required, just a convenience feature.

[Groncho]

This might be unknown to you, but the game devs have full control over the macro system. Of what it can and can't do, they have full control over how many action a single macro can perform.

 

You pointed out Rift as a bad example, I will point out WoW as a good one. You can't chain abilities in the WoW system, they took out that function because Devs have full control over the system.

 

L2p without macros

is a better world

[Scotland]

L2p without macros

is a better world

 

arriba arriba arriba

[Assaultrooper]

No, what they allow you to do is build priority into single keybinds, so your one button does x skill first, if that's on cooldown, does x skill, if that's on cooldown, does x skill, and so on.

 

I have no problem with what you're describing. I have a problem with how it usually gets used, because it takes what little "skill" remains in these games out.

 

E.G. Little Timmy loses two seconds every time he accidentally presses a skill on CD because he has slow reflexes and doesn't know his keybinds well.

 

Suddenly Little Timmy can do "leet deeps" because his computer does all the thinking for him based on a simple routine that he probably cut and pasted from someone's post/website.

 

I'm not saying "I'm right". I'm just saying that to me, it's lame.

 

What you are describing isn't possible in any decent game. How would I know?? I tried in WoW, it doesnt work like that. The cast sequence macros atleast in WoW are almost obsolete precisely because what you described is not possible. You cant make a macro to cast immolate then corruption, then the nuke until immolate is of cooldown.

 

What you COULD do was count how many gcds it took to finish of cooldown, and write that in a macro, yet even then you would be screwed in any fight involving more than one mob or if one your spells missed, not to mention any procs would ruin it, and dont get me started in pvp...

 

Conclusion all this objections are PvE-ers thinking PvP=PvE, Cast sequence macros do not affect PvP nearly as much as think...

[xirinia]

Here's an important reason to have in-game macros. Because there are already out-of-game macros that will allow you to do much more than normal in-game ones. Implementing in-game macros will level the playing field.

[Exzileforgotten]

With macros the mercs/commandos that realistically are bad and only smash tracer/grav will look good because they read on the forums how to make a one button macro to get"MAXDEEPS!!!" No thx on macros I enjoy watching people struggle as they fumble for their keybinds.

[Eyevan]

No macros!

 

There is no need. Just go to stop being lazy.

[Slackfumasta]

No, what they allow you to do is build priority into single keybinds, so your one button does x skill first, if that's on cooldown, does x skill, if that's on cooldown, does x skill, and so on.

 

I have no problem with what you're describing. I have a problem with how it usually gets used, because it takes what little "skill" remains in these games out.

 

E.G. Little Timmy loses two seconds every time he accidentally presses a skill on CD because he has slow reflexes and doesn't know his keybinds well.

 

Suddenly Little Timmy can do "leet deeps" because his computer does all the thinking for him based on a simple routine that he probably cut and pasted from someone's post/website.

 

I'm not saying "I'm right". I'm just saying that to me, it's lame.

 

Actually, even WoW removed the ability to do what you just described. You did used to be able, pre-Cata, to use a castrandom sequence and make a one-button macro (worked for some classes better than others). That was removed because it simplified the game.

 

Bioware does not need to make that mistake. Macros that don't make decisions are the ones that should be in the game.

[Slackfumasta]

With macros the mercs/commandos that realistically are bad and only smash tracer/grav will look good because they read on the forums how to make a one button macro to get"MAXDEEPS!!!" No thx on macros I enjoy watching people struggle as they fumble for their keybinds.

 

Wrong. You can't even do this in WoW. One button macros are history.

 

That said, anybody in PVP who tries to make a one-button macro will be a free kill in this game anyway.

[EternalFinality]

They still don't have macros in this game?

 

....pathetic

[EYEVIL]

No thank you, No Macros please, Macros are garbage.

[iamtheolive]

It's amusing to see people who oppose macros citing that they promote laziness or "one button gameplay." From the perspective of a PVP minded player, macros (when correctly implemented by the developer) do nothing more than allow for a more streamlined PvP experience. They don't necessarily foster a higher level of play, just a more efficient one. Ultimately it should come down to skill, and a player with inferior skill should still lose to a player with superior skill, with or without macros.

 

If macros were to be introduced in a smart and controlled way by setting up rules and restrictions on what type of actions macros can and cannot perform (no cast sequences and no one-button-wins), a happy medium could be reached.

 

It's also important to note that just because macros could exist does not mean one has to use them to play the game or even compete at the highest level in both PvE and PvP. Based on a number of responses in this thread (specifically the "macros = bad/lazy/garbage" posts), I feel like this is a case of some people fearing something they don't understand and immediately grabbing their pitchforks and torches at even the idea of introducing something so foreign into their gameplay experience.

 

I really liked the idea of just introducing a mouseover and focus macro functionality. There's no real need for anything past that as far as I'm concerned.

 

TL;DR version:

"That guy just killed me, he must be using macros! Macros=me dying, me dying=bad, so macros=bad!"

[MartyrLXXVII]

Macros are for those without skill.

[iamtheolive]

Macros are for those without skill.

 

Guys, I think this guy gets it... ._.

[FourTwent]

It's also important to note that just because macros could exist does not mean one has to use them to play the game or even compete at the highest level in both PvE and PvP. Based on a number of responses in this thread (specifically the "macros = bad/lazy/garbage" posts), I feel like this is a case of some people fearing something they don't understand and immediately grabbing their pitchforks and torches at even the idea of introducing something so foreign into their gameplay experience.

 

It does though. In your words, the rotations get so 'streamlined', that it's 100% optimized.

 

So then as a developer you have a choice. . .either create harder content that challenges the macro users. . .which in turn punishes EVERYONE who doesn't use the macro system.

 

Or you continue to create the content based on if no one was using macros. . .and then the macro users complain about how facerollingly easy the content is.

[Spinefusor]

No.

 

Macros

 

Ever.

 

Thanks.

 

In everygame they ruin them, everyone makes these one button copy cat chars and think they are good.

 

Why Macros DONT belong in TOR:

 

Because they are noob.

[Arnathis]

I see your problem.

 

You were looking for WoW2 and not SWTOR.

 

SWTOR certainly doesn't need macros, all it needs is individual skill and a good set of keybinds, maximum efficiency comes from your own skill.

 

Rrrriiiiiggghhhttt. Cause the hideous tab targeting and inefficiency of click to target is really fun and also what separates the good players from the bad.

 

I have yet to come across a person that is against macros and can convince me they've used them in the past.

 

Macros translate my brains thoughts into the game world faster, making gameplay more responsive. I know what target I want, tab target doesn't and click to target is clunky as all hell. Macros are a step forward in the progression of gaming and not having them is archaic.

 

THEY DO NOT MAKE FOR ONE BUTTON ROTATIONS IF THE DEVELOPERS PUT THE CORRECT LIMITATIONS IN PLACE, ANYONE SAYING THEY DO IS CLUELESS

Edited March 10, 2012 by Arnathis

[kweassa]

I'm a PvP purist.

 

To me, the speed and delicacy of trained finger action is as important a PvP skill as any other.

 

If you want a "streamlined PvP experience", nothing's stopping you from getting it.

 

Streamline your finger action. Problem solved.

[iamtheolive]

It does though. In your words, the rotations get so 'streamlined', that it's 100% optimized.

 

Yes, because "streamlined" must mean 100% optimized...right? RIGHT? Wrong. Taking into account the very definition of streamlined, it would simply mean that the actions of the game play would be effectively organized or simplified, something that they are not in their current state.

 

Streamlining the PvP game play looks like cutting down on erroneous clicks (mouseover). Streamlining the PvP game play looks like cutting down on the reliance of the tab targeting system with a mind of its own (mouseover or focus). Streamlining the PvP game play is just that, streamlining, it's not automating (if implemented correctly with a proper set of limitations).

[kweassa]

Rrrriiiiiggghhhttt. Cause the hideous tab targeting and inefficiency of click to target is really fun and also what separates the good players from the bad.

 

As a matter of fact, it does separate the good players from bad.

 

I have no problems with tab targetting and mouse-click targetting. I use both of them at the same time moving around in all directions with my left hand, and have no problems whatsoever in switching around the targets I want.

 

Obviously, this comes from training/practice and experience. If you have a lazy or slow-poke hand, and stumble all over in trying to target the enemy you want, then that simply means "you lack in skill than compared to those who can use tab targetting with maximum efficiency."

 

 

I have yet to come across a person that is against macros and can convince me they've used them in the past.

 

Macros translate my brains thoughts into the game world faster, making gameplay more responsive. I know what target I want, tab target doesn't and click to target is clunky as all hell. Macros are a step forward in the progression of gaming and not having them is archaic.

 

Your "responsiveness" is something to be dealt with yourself, not with automated help.

 

 

 

THEY DO NOT MAKE FOR ONE BUTTON ROTATIONS IF THE DEVELOPERS PUT THE CORRECT LIMITATIONS IN PLACE, ANYONE SAYING THEY DO IS CLUELESS

 

Then just think the current state as a "limitation to the max, to the point that everything needs to be done manually."

 

Your own, trained response/reaction time is your own macro.

[deltaminus]

We don't need macros.

We don't need the ability to activate multiple moves with the press of ONE BUTTON.

[kweassa]

Streamlining the PvP game play looks like cutting down on erroneous clicks (mouseover).

 

Managing human error is part of skill. If your physical response is not as accurate and precise as the other person, and therefore you make mistakes in input, then that's your skill level, and the results on your screen should correspond to it.

 

 

Streamlining the PvP game play looks like cutting down on the reliance of the tab targeting system with a mind of its own (mouseover or focus).

 

Likewise, managing the speed of targetting, target switching is also a part of human PvP skill. Honestly I have no problems whatsoever in the enemy I wish to target, and rarely make input errors.

 

Looking it from a different perspective, when you are a Sniper or a Gunslinger shooting an enemy target that is in the midst of a chaotic fight, you would expect him to take some time in figuring out where the pewpew shots are coming from. The speed and reaction time it takes for that target to figure out who is attacking him, varies upon the players and their individual skill level. That, is part of player skill.

 

If it is simply a matter of some stupid macro function like "target recent attacker", then that is a massive crutch, nothing more.

 

 

Streamlining the PvP game play is just that, streamlining, it's not automating (if implemented correctly with a proper set of limitations).

 

Streamlining, is a different way of saying "giving crutches to sucky people that don't deserve it."

 

If anything, PvP is a world of competition, and a very fierce one.

 

The speed of your fingers and the delicacy of your mouse movement, is a part of what determines PvP skill.

 

If I can manage my targetting better, and make less mistakes than other people, then I expect that to be my advantage over other people.

 

I would not want some ham-fisted one-click function just negating that difference.

[indelible]

If Bioware add macros to the game, especially if it impacts on PvP, I will stop playing the game.

 

That's all I have to say on the matter. It's one of the few things I'm pretty resolved to in that regard. That and poorly implemented cross-realm PvP.

[Smashbrother]

The only macros I really want are mouseover macros for healing, the ability to use modifier (shift+1, alt+1, etc) macros to save space on my bars, and a target last target function of some kind. Everything else I don't really care about.