HK-55 for non subscribers

[casirabit]

The number of people who have stayed subscribed just for the rewards and the bonus chapter would probably surprise you.

I personally know of about 75 who have.

Their system worked and I wouldn't expect them to change much other than clarification of the wording.

 

I can also state I know about that many from my guild and our alliance guilds that no reward was worth their sub nor the bonus chapter and they unsub around Feb-April and they said no reward could keep them playing.

 

So maybe it worked with some but it didn't work with others.

Edited August 26, 2016 by casirabit

[Andryah]

Now on that I agree with you Peter. There should be a rewards system that is better then the one they have now. I think the rewards system as it is, is a bad business decision. It mainly only tries to reward players for staying subscriber for a limited time, then seems to reward people for taking advantage of the system, by subbing for 1 month for a season of content.

 

Not an uncommon theme in forum posts here for sure.

 

The thing is... if it IS working for the studios business intentions... then it's not a bad business decision for them. And the surest way to tell is if they keep doing it in the face of vocal complaints in the forum.

 

My guess is that the incentives leading up to 4.0 as well as 4.0 itself has enabled the studio to convert more Preferred players to longer term subscriber status. And if so.. then "working as intended", especially in todays market where many players really do want everything for free.

 

And people declaring they are unsubbing because of this are very likely a minority of the total player base and as such cannot influence a change in direction on the basis of protest based unsubbing. I have unsubbed before, with no expectation that it changes anything at the studio.. but rather it puts some distance between "me and my frustrations" and the studio. If a game frustrates, it's healthy to take a break and cool off about it, IMO.

 

I think the biggest player impact of 4.0 is that after players have "played out" the expac, they may very well stay subbed, yet log in and play less. Now... for people dependent on other random players being available for random grouping.. this is an issue. But it is certainly not an issue for the more casual players who still do group content with their guild and friends, and love the solo content. And it certainly is not an issue for the studio if they have been successful in increasing their conversions from preferred to sub.

 

Personally, I would not subscribe just for incentive rewards... not even an actual classic "veterans reward program" that some MMOs do. So I see such incentives as just gravy on top of the entre that is the game itself. But I do truly believe these sorts of incentive programs DO work with many MMO players... so it is hard to blame the studio for feeding to players what works.

Edited August 26, 2016 by Andryah

[rklontz]

I can also state I know about that many from my guild and our alliance guilds that no reward was worth their sub nor the bonus chapter and they unsub around Feb-April and they said no reward could keep them playing.

 

So maybe it worked with some but it didn't work with others.

 

Agreed but with that model it's probably a safe bet to say it helped to retain subs that otherwise would have been lost if they continued to do nothing.

I personally would like to know what genius thought that a sub reward program was infinitely better than ops or PVP maps. Which would have kept the people you know around longer and the people I know a better playing experience.

Edited August 26, 2016 by rklontz

[ZanyaCross]

This is an incorrect statement. A more accurate statement would be people think they are entitled to something if they are willing to spend extra for it even though they did not meet the requirements to receive the item in the first place. It is why cash shop micro transactions work so well these days. Entitlement and extra spending money.

 

"You keep using that word.I do not think it means what you think it means."

[Jamtas]

Agreed but with that model it's probably a safe bet to say it helped to retain subs that otherwise would have been lost if they continued to do nothing.

I personally would like to know what genius thought that a sub reward program was infinitely better than ops or PVP maps. Which would have kept the people you know around longer and the people I know a better playing experience.

 

Are you under the impression they had a choice between those two things because it would be the same development team/budget working on one or the other?

[Tsetso]

"You keep using that word.I do not think it means what you think it means."

 

{I'm entitled to think that entitlement means whatever i want it to mean because i qualified for entitlement}

[PorsaLindahl]

Actually I just read the text in your spoiler tags and the word exclusive is never mentioned, so you didn't refute his point at all. If anything it proves his point.

 

Exclusivity or not, it does say that players must qualify and gives the terms of qualification. If you don't meet the terms, you don't qualify. That's what all these people can't seem to grasp. There is no precedent at all for them to go back on their terms and give/sell these items to the general customer base, let alone non-subscribers.

[lightSaberAddiCt]

Not an uncommon theme in forum posts here for sure.

 

The thing is... if it IS working for the studios business intentions... then it's not a bad business decision for them. And the surest way to tell is if they keep doing it in the face of vocal complaints in the forum.

 

My guess is that the incentives leading up to 4.0 as well as 4.0 itself has enabled the studio to convert more Preferred players to longer term subscriber status. And if so.. then "working as intended", especially in todays market where many players really do want everything for free.

 

And people declaring they are unsubbing because of this are very likely a minority of the total player base and as such cannot influence a change in direction on the basis of protest based unsubbing. I have unsubbed before, with no expectation that it changes anything at the studio.. but rather it puts some distance between "me and my frustrations" and the studio. If a game frustrates, it's healthy to take a break and cool off about it, IMO.

 

I think the biggest player impact of 4.0 is that after players have "played out" the expac, they may very well stay subbed, yet log in and play less. Now... for people dependent on other random players being available for random grouping.. this is an issue. But it is certainly not an issue for the more casual players who still do group content with their guild and friends, and love the solo content. And it certainly is not an issue for the studio if they have been successful in increasing their conversions from preferred to sub.

 

Personally, I would not subscribe just for incentive rewards... not even an actual classic "veterans reward program" that some MMOs do. So I see such incentives as just gravy on top of the entre that is the game itself. But I do truly believe these sorts of incentive programs DO work with many MMO players... so it is hard to blame the studio for feeding to players what works.

 

The thing is Andryah, is it the type of subs they really want. Now this is just assumption, since I have no idea what their metrics are, but the type of preferred to subs that they seem to me to be attracting, is subs that may, at best, sub for a month or two. The type of added system I am talking about, would generate subs for a longer term. 6 months to a year.

 

Again, like I said, this is just my take on it. I may well be TOTALLY wrong, and they are grabbing major sub numbers, but honestly, I just don't see it.

 

Everyone likes to feel like they are appreciated for their loyalty (and yes I know your theory of MMO people having no loyalty and jump from game to game, and you may be right. But I don't think for a good number of people that is true. Like me, I would never have time for another MMO).

 

But if after they promoted this whole HK story IF YOU SUBBED for the period of time, then turn around, and either let people that did not meet the requirements, or purchase it on the cheap in the CM. I think it is going to bite them in the ***. Because that straight up is telling people that did stay subbed for that time, that it was a waste of their money, and would have actually been cheaper to just go preferred, and then buy it on the CM.

 

If they made a, lets call it ELDER SUBSCRIBER STORE for arguments sake, and began to give really nice, collectable stuff for maybe the 8 month or 1 year marks, I am telling you people would take to it. And it would do nothing but extend their LONG TERM sub numbers. People are compulsive, and if they see something they really want, they will do the requirements to get it.

 

**And yes, I am aware of the irony of saying the above paragraph, in the forum thread we are in.

Edited August 26, 2016 by lightSaberAddiCt

[rklontz]

Are you under the impression they had a choice between those two things because it would be the same development team/budget working on one or the other?

 

Nope but somebody had to come up with the idea .

The development teams only work on what they are told to work on and I would honestly be surprised if they had much input into the game's direction as people think.

[Kingsbount]

Simple example:

 

You pay $15 for one month within the window to get companion X. You then unsub and wait until more content is released.

 

Random person wants to spend $15 to get companion X. Apparently your money is magically more valuable than theirs.

Why should this person's money be worth less than yours?

 

Becouse of CONDITIONS. If you can't read - can't help with that.

Didn't Bioware was clear enough for you? You MUST be a subscriber to recieve rewards.

Still can't read?

Edited August 26, 2016 by Kingsbount

[Jamtas]

Nope but somebody had to come up with the idea .

The development teams only work on what they are told to work on and I would honestly be surprised if they had much input into the game's direction as people think.

 

Listen, if you look through my post history you can see I am one of the ones constantly complaining for more end game content. So with that in mind - it isn't as simple as you think. The budget between the two choices you listed is far different as well as the team required to do each one.

[Rolodome]

Exclusivity or not, it does say that players must qualify and gives the terms of qualification. If you don't meet the terms, you don't qualify. That's what all these people can't seem to grasp. There is no precedent at all for them to go back on their terms and give/sell these items to the general customer base, let alone non-subscribers.

I don't know for sure what all others are arguing in this thread, but my point was never that there's some kind of precedent of them implying exclusivity and going back on it (frankly, I don't know whether there is or not). The point was that some were stating outright, or implying, that they are owed exclusivity for these items, when, as far as I can tell, there was no explicit promise of the items being exclusive and staying exclusive into the future.

 

And this discussion of them remaining exclusive comes back to the earlier argument, which is, "Releasing them in some other form could hurt the success of future subscriber reward programs." Which is a reasonable argument. Saying that one is owed exclusivity is not (barring evidence to the contrary that seems not to exist).

 

I don't know where this idea is coming from that people are saying anything along the lines of, "BW owes it to us to re-release these items in some way and make them less exclusive." The "owed" language seems to be all on the other side of the table. If it's there and I'm missing it, I'd be happy to read a quote of someone who was talking in that way.

 

That said, I agree with whoever it was that said we should probably be focusing on discussion of future reward programs. I think that's the heart of the matter, is that the system could be better. And for those who are arguing "yes, but it worked." No system is immune to improvement, no matter how good. I would think that this would be a common understanding among MMO regulars, who play in virtual worlds that are improved and updated on an ongoing basis.

[CrazyCT]

"To qualify for [insert thing here], you must be subscribed on [insert date here]" <- There's your "exclusive" clause right there. It's not rocket surgery.

[JourrnoRush]

Why not put HK-55 on the CM for the same amount as it would cost for someone who paid for every month of subscription to get him? Obviously in the amount of CC.

 

No, not the 6 month sub discount, the full amount.

 

I'd be more upset that I was subbed the entire time, thus paying that money, to just see it appear on the CM at a discounted amount.

 

If these people who are crying for the reward want it, put it on there for the full amount. It's the only way to keep it fair imo.

 

Make it the same amount as a subscriber paid or don't do it at all. Luckily, I think they won't do it at all but I think some people would drop the money to get him.

[Tsetso]

"To qualify for [insert thing here], you must be subscribed on [insert date here]" <- There's your "exclusive" clause right there. It's not rocket surgery.

 

Which is exactly what implied exclusivity means. There is no mention about possibility of acquiring the said item in the future. I might be wrong since i'm not native english speaker. but that's my understanding of the sentence. It's a moot point since even if what you say means exclusive for all the time in the world they are not legally bound by it(read the TOS if you disagree)

[CrazyCT]

There is no mention about possibility of acquiring the said item in the future.

 

What bit of "must be subscribed on [insert date here]" means it will be open in the future? If you weren't subscribed on that date, then you don't qualify.

[rklontz]

Listen, if you look through my post history you can see I am one of the ones constantly complaining for more end game content. So with that in mind - it isn't as simple as you think. The budget between the two choices you listed is far different as well as the team required to do each one.

 

Now you are under the impression that they have multiple teams for multiple projects. Hate to tell you they don't. EA has them scaled down to the bare bones and it's just one team for pve, PvP, and the cartel market

Bioware operates on a limited budget and to fund one project the money comes from another. Somebody determined that the money needed to be moved from multi-player development to subscription rewards.

Edited August 26, 2016 by rklontz

[Rolodome]

Which is exactly what implied exclusivity means. There is no mention about possibility of acquiring the said item in the future. I might be wrong since i'm not native english speaker. but that's my understanding of the sentence. It's a moot point since even if what you say means exclusive for all the time in the world they are not legally bound by it(read the TOS if you disagree)

I'm a native english speaker and I grew up in a family of people who use big words naturally (not with the intention of sounding pompous). I'm pretty familiar with academic language and heavy concepts.

 

I'm pretty confident you're right on point. There is nothing in the language there that states exclusivity. To make a comparison, sometimes there'll be some fast food place or something that'll have a promotion for a day. And it goes something like this, "Come in on this day and you qualify for one free X." X being whatever free item it is they're giving out. In the fast food example, there is usually not even an implication of the "free X" being something that will not be for sale on other days.

 

In this case, there may be an implication of the X you qualify for being exclusive, but so far, I'm not confident that it's even implied beyond people doing what humans are prone to doing and assuming certain things based on past experiences, or the style of how something is presented. I mean, it makes sense people would assume that the rewards were intended to be exclusive... from a common sense standpoint, that seems to be what the intended message was by BW. But a legal standpoint is a completely different matter.

 

There's a fair bit of leeway in marketing to get away with implying things without legal recourse.

[PorsaLindahl]

Now you are under the impression that they have multiple teams for multiple projects. Hate to tell you they don't. EA has them scaled down to the bare bones and it's just one team for pve, PvP, and the cartel market

 

Source? Or are you making assumptions? Do you know how many people work at BW Austin and know precisely what their jobs are?

 

Too many people are blowing smoke around here.

[peter_plankskull]

Source? Or are you making assumptions? Do you know how many people work at BW Austin and know precisely what their jobs are?

 

Too many people are blowing smoke around here.

 

Fine... if theirs a whole lot of people working their, then they do nothing or are bad at their jobs by the lack of PVE group content in the entire expansion of KOTFE.

[JediRelentless]

Now you are under the impression that they have multiple teams for multiple projects. Hate to tell you they don't. EA has them scaled down to the bare bones and it's just one team for pve, PvP, and the cartel market

 

From the Celebration Cantina Q & A via Dulfy

http://dulfy.net/2016/07/18/swtor-celebration-cantina-qa-on-group-content/

" There are people at work in one room right now on one thing, other people in another room right now working on another thing and other people in other rooms working on other things."

[peter_plankskull]

From the Celebration Cantina Q & A via Dulfy

http://dulfy.net/2016/07/18/swtor-celebration-cantina-qa-on-group-content/

" There are people at work in one room right now on one thing, other people in another room right now working on another thing and other people in other rooms working on other things."

 

Since when are "things" = group content, PVP, and GSF. For all we know "things" = more CM items.

[Tsetso]

From the Celebration Cantina Q & A via Dulfy

http://dulfy.net/2016/07/18/swtor-celebration-cantina-qa-on-group-content/

" There are people at work in one room right now on one thing, other people in another room right now working on another thing and other people in other rooms working on other things."

 

If there are really a lot of people working on the game i must say i'm not impressed with the quality of their work.

[casirabit]

From the Celebration Cantina Q & A via Dulfy

http://dulfy.net/2016/07/18/swtor-celebration-cantina-qa-on-group-content/

" There are people at work in one room right now on one thing, other people in another room right now working on another thing and other people in other rooms working on other things."

 

That also doesn't state how many people are in a group, now does it. A group consists of at least 2 people so how do we know exactly how many people are actually working on a project. It could be 2 in each group which also relates to what some are saying there isn't that many people working at bioware.

 

 

Definition of group:

 

 

Full Definition of group

1

: two or more figures forming a complete unit in a composition

2

a : a number of individuals assembled together or having some unifying relationship

b : an assemblage of objects regarded as a unit

c (1) : a military unit consisting of a headquarters and attached battalions (2) : a unit of the United States Air Force higher than a squadron and lower than a wing

3

a : an assemblage of related organisms —often used to avoid taxonomic connotations when the kind or degree of relationship is not clearly defined

b (1) : two or more atoms joined together or sometimes a single atom forming part of a molecule; especially : functional group <a methyl group> (2) : an assemblage of elements forming one of the vertical columns of the periodic table

c : a stratigraphic division comprising rocks deposited during an era

4

: a mathematical set that is closed under a binary associative operation, contains an identity element, and has an inverse for every element

Edited August 26, 2016 by casirabit

[lightSaberAddiCt]

If there are really a lot of people working on the game i must say i'm not impressed with the quality of their work.

 

The question isnt really how MANY people are working on something. You could have 100 people doing something, that 20 QUALIFIED people could do in half the time. More then likely they have a bunch of kids they pulled out of art school, with no experience, because they are cheaper.

 

Hence crappy reskins, and bad design. Because hiring qualified, experienced developers and designers would cost them to much. Though they would be able to meet content demand, with good design.

 

But that is just my theory...