Please Reconsider the Way You're Treating Fans

[KyaniteD]

Why is any constructive criticism , whining complaining and trolling? I really don't understand this. If anyone posts about something they don't like, then they are a troll and a whiner and just complaining. The OP had things they didn't like, so what. Is the OP not allowed to have an opinion?

 

He's allowed to have an opinion as long as it is the right one. Anything else is too hard to deal with. It's easier to dismiss a differing opinion or preference as trolling and complaining than to come up with a constructive counter argument.

---

“No passion is stronger in the breast of man than the desire to make others believe as he believes. Nothing so cuts at the root of his happiness and fills him with rage as the sense that another rates low what he prizes high.” (V. Woolf)

[aeterno]

O.O Uh, no. At launch I got 8 different stories stretched across 16 planets accompanied with another 17 planet stories (some really nice ones like Tatooine and Nar Shaddaa) and many more small stories. The story content of KotFE is nowhere near what I got at launch. If I take my time, KotFe is about 15-20 hours. That's considerably less than it takes me to go through the first three acts of a vanilla class story. (Both with watching cutscenes and dialog.)

 

While there is no question the game shipped with a LOT more story if you count planetary arcs, side quests and all class stories, "the vanilla class story experience" is incredibly inflated time wise by the transit times. There are usually what, 4-5 class quest stages per planet? I don't think I'm reaching if I say that on larger planets you spend 3/4 of the time advancing your class quest simply schlepping from one cave to the next.

 

KOTFE is easily multiple class story lines worth of pure cutscenes and SoR and Makeb both clocked in at roughly 1.5 hours of cutscenes, (well Makeb 3h due to still having different faction stories). Story wise it's actually a really meaty expansion. If shipped at once with all the accompanying features and say 2 operations it would have been a good sized expansion by standards of any mmo game out there. Monthly installments dilute it and make it look smaller but I guess that's the trade-off when you don't have the in-game foundation/resources/communication to do what blizzard does (drop a boxed expansion once in a blue moon).

[BorisKarloffe]

The point is saying it cost $120 is blatantly false. KOTFE did not cost a dime. You gain access to all of it by just being a subscriber. You can complain about having to wait all you want but you did not pay extra money on top of being a sub like you had to for RotHC and SoR.

 

I'm making a point that if you want to use your ridiculous and erroneous argument that KOTFE cost $120, $15 a month (or 50 cents a day) is chump change.

 

How did Chapter 16 not resolve anything? The whole point of KOTFE was to remove Arcann from the throne and that's exactly what happened. The entire point of the expansion was resolved. Anything else was never promised or suggested by BioWare.

 

I agree. RotHC and SoR were terrible in terms of storytelling. KOTFE is the best storytelling this game has had since launch. In my opinion, it's better than most of the class stories as well. It's not perfect, but it's the kind of storytelling I expected from a KotOR MMO rather than what we have been getting.

 

You can call it a ridiculous and erroneous argument all you want, but getting people to pay that amount for the xpac was PRECISELY the reason Bioware went to that model.

 

Arcann may not be on the throne, but come on. Nowhere does it state by Bioware or narratively that "removing Arcann from the throne" was the sole purpose of KotFE. If anything, dealing with Valkorion or "saving the galaxy" was the purpose of KotFE, which of course didn't happen either.

 

All that happened were some pieces got moved around and status quo remains. Zakuul still in charge of everything, still with crazy Valkorion child x in charge, among other things.

[Audoucet]

First : Arcann was already out of the Throne, because of Scorpio. The only difference with chapter 16 is, now we know that even his remaining fleet was fake, it was a trick from Scorpio. He actually just had one ship. He would have been shot out of the sky even by Ord'Mandel's planetary defences.

 

Second : Well, I could argue that you are forced to be a subscriber, if you want the full expansion, AKA bonus chapter & so on.

[Bobs_YourUncle]

I agree with the op. Kotfe was a letdown. They invested all that time to story, and we got kotfe, gg. Now they have let down raiders, pvp'ers, and thier target audience, story players. What a shame.

[bncsmom]

OP gets an expansion that has more content and story than RotHC and SoR combined FREE with the cost of a subscription, and is whining about the value?

 

 

How do you justify saying this has more content than both those expansions combined? Oh, do you mean more cutscenes? If that's the case, then yes, you're right. But if that's all you mean, then NO, you are Not correct in saying that.

 

With both of those expansions, we got not only the story missions, but we also got at least dozens of side missions. We also got grouped content with both.

 

With Fallen Pants, we got hours of WATCHING our characters in cutscenes. Oh, yes, we got two PvP warzones: one 8-man and one arena. Big flipping deal. The Odessen map isn't bad but it was poorly designed. The arena is ok, but it's an arena, no one expects much of it.

 

Did we get new flashpoints? No.

 

Did we get new operations? No.

 

Did we get any side missions? No. Pretty much all missions we do are in conjunction with the main story. Maybe one or two are optional, but they're early on and not really important to anything, unless you want an ugly speeder.

 

In a nutshell, we got **maybe** the equivalent of what they released with Ilum in this entire season that was supposedly to be an "expansion" ... just without the flashpoints.

 

Oh, yes, and don't forget what else we got: all of our companions having

on launch day. Still doesn't equal the content we had in previous expansions.

[Aowin]

...

 

Wrong, wrong, and more wrong.

 

We got a new wz and a new arena.

 

We got six new flashpoints via Star Fortress.

 

We got operations resynced to max level with new gear sets.

 

We got new dailies in the form of revitalized heroics.

 

KotFE is by far the best value and most content in an expansion we've ever had. The problem is people are one-dimensional and expect new raids, new flashpoints, and nothing else. This expansion was great in terms of the amount of content it delivered and I expect KOTET to do even better.

[AmarantKando]

Wrong, wrong, and more wrong.

 

We got a new wz and a new arena.

 

We got six new flashpoints via Star Fortress.

 

We got operations resynced to max level with new gear sets.

 

We got new dailies in the form of revitalized heroics.

 

KotFE is by far the best value and most content in an expansion we've ever had. The problem is people are one-dimensional and expect new raids, new flashpoints, and nothing else. This expansion was great in terms of the amount of content it delivered and I expect KOTET to do even better.

 

Lol, lol, and more lol.

Edited August 14, 2016 by AmarantKando

[Sorwen]

Lol, and lol.

 

FREE at the cost of... Lol...

I just had to quote this because people further down still don't get it.

[Theradonh]

This expansion was great in terms of the amount of content it delivered and I expect KOTET to do even better.

 

Which content? Wow a new Warzone and Arena, its great for PvP players I think.

This "content" is just nothing compared to other MMOs.. Every single (big) WoW patch have more content..

Its not even enough to play for a month.. I dont know how people play swtor the whole year.

 

The Story is so fuc... short and the game is soooo easy. It's like impossible to die while leveling or in a solo FP. They destroyed the old content completely with this new expansion.

Edited August 14, 2016 by Theradonh

[KyaniteD]

While there is no question the game shipped with a LOT more story if you count planetary arcs, side quests and all class stories

 

So it's story content, but it doesn't count as story content because it doesn't match with the impression of KotFE having so much more story than the vanilla game at launch.

 

For me, those 8 class stories and the planet arcs all weave one bigger story, they intertwine, cross, run sometimes parallel sometimes consecutive, and tell the story from different perspectives under different aspects, but all with the player characters at the center.

 

RotHC reduced the perspectives to two, but was still a two-sides-of-the-story narrative lead by the player characters.

 

With KotFE (and SoR, too) we got one story, one player perspective and everything else told through cutscenes that often break immersion and RP by not even involving the player character. If I want a story told to me through cinematics I'll watch a movie. This is a game, I do want to play the story, play my character, not just watch both, and that involves and includes fights and traveling, but also interactive dialog, discovery, exploration, distraction, companion stories etc. etc.

 

Besides, KotFE is inflated, too, by transitions and, even more so, back-and-forth traveling on a small map, hampered by waves of tedious mobs. I'm playing only class story for the event and I end up with about 20-25 hours per class. With all taxi pads discovered by default and no cooldown on any of the QTs, transition and travel time makes up a small portion of that.

Edited August 14, 2016 by KyaniteD

[bncsmom]

We got a new wz and a new arena.

 

We got six new flashpoints via Star Fortress.

 

We got operations resynced to max level with new gear sets.

 

We got new dailies in the form of revitalized heroics.

 

KotFE is by far the best value and most content in an expansion we've ever had. The problem is people are one-dimensional and expect new raids, new flashpoints, and nothing else. This expansion was great in terms of the amount of content it delivered and I expect KOTET to do even better.

 

1) I mentioned the warzone and arena. Meh on both counts. I don't mind Odessen but the arena layout is just poorly designed.

 

2) The star fortresses are NOT flashpoints. They just aren't. You just can't count them in there. You cannot queue for them. You cannot complete them as part of your flashpoint daily or weekly. They are not flashpoints. They are Heroics, at best, which can be 2 or 3 manned, or, if you're a really good DPS class with a high ranking healing companion, you might even be able to solo them. You might be able to do that with some of the flashpoints, yes, but you cannot get credit for the grouped content missions.

 

3) Operations resynced? Come on. That is NOT NEW content, which is the entire point. There are NO NEW operations in this game as part of Fallen Pants.

 

4) Heroics as dailies? Wrong. They're weeklies. We cannot do every one of the heroics daily like we used to be able to do, before 4.0, they're simply old content repackaged into weekly content, with "rewards" that are neither better nor worse than they used to be.

 

There was very little content delivered in this sorry excuse for an "expansion" and you're literally grasping by saying most of the above was "new." It is not the "best value" in an expansion, by far. With old expansions, we could buy it and not bother with subbing if we wanted to continue doing the content. With this, we have to pay them every single month to play all of the content or we're out of luck for doing any of it but perhaps the first chapter, maybe two whenever they get the idea to offer additional chapters to non-subscribers for a limited time.

[Shwarzchild]

Wrong, wrong, and more wrong.

 

We got a new wz and a new arena.

 

We got six new flashpoints via Star Fortress.

 

We got operations resynced to max level with new gear sets.

 

We got new dailies in the form of revitalized heroics.

 

KotFE is by far the best value and most content in an expansion we've ever had. The problem is people are one-dimensional and expect new raids, new flashpoints, and nothing else. This expansion was great in terms of the amount of content it delivered and I expect KOTET to do even better.

 

I kind of wanted to correct one thing in here: star fortresses are not flashpoints. They are kind of some new hybrid type of content that's not exactly a heroic, but it's not a flashpoint. Neither here nor there really, But, I think it's important to label things appropriately.

 

I also wanted to add that we got the Eternal Championship, and I would consider Alliance Alerts as non main story level content. We also got an event in LvD.

 

Everything else, from an objective standpoint is correct. Operations got "touched". PvP got "touched". Story got "touched". It was definitely a very large expansion. Now, how meaningful the "touches" to each level of content were become subjective evaluations from person to person.

Edited August 15, 2016 by Shwarzchild

[annabethchase]

I agree. Having said "choices matter" all year and yet not having a choice matter in the outcome to KOTFE is a huge letdown. I think the quality of the solo content they did create was high, but the story didn't have any replayability due to the choices simply not mattering this year.

 

And now, we have months with no new content with replayability. I was literally shocked that there wasn't something with chapter 16 to keep us busy. The DvL event is already old so what are we supposed to be doing? I don't want to cancel my sub as that only further dwindles the games resources, but I don't see what we're being given to do?

 

Yes, I've done all DvL content many times and KOTFE chapters many times. But an MMO needs constant repeatable content and it's dried up here. And now the story that should have been replayable as "choices matter" isn't showing any signs that choices mattered.

[Baalzie]

The point is saying it cost $120 is blatantly false. KOTFE did not cost a dime.

 

The point is that THAT is blatantly false! If it's FREE, and if it doesn't cost a dime, then show me how to play it, whilst not subbing. As if it, and I quote, "...did not cost a dime."

 

 

Since you HAVE to sub to play the expansion. And if you wanted to play it these last months since release you'd have to sub every month. That is ENFORCED. Hence it is NOT free, you gibbering monkeys!

[JabbaWabbA]

Wrong, wrong, and more wrong.

 

We got a new wz and a new arena.

 

We got six new flashpoints via Star Fortress.

 

We got operations resynced to max level with new gear sets.

 

We got new dailies in the form of revitalized heroics.

 

KotFE is by far the best value and most content in an expansion we've ever had. The problem is people are one-dimensional and expect new raids, new flashpoints, and nothing else. This expansion was great in terms of the amount of content it delivered and I expect KOTET to do even better.

 

Resynced and revitalized are two words that stood out to me in this when you could've used the word "recycled" and it would have made better sense to most of us.

 

Also, star fortresses are not flashpoints, don't kid yourself.

[ZanyaCross]

You're assuming people subbed for the exact same reasons you did.

 

Doesn't matter, because you get those things regardless of whether they are the reasons you subbed or not. This isn't a matter of opinion, it's demonstrable fact that OP's argument, that you paid such and such for the 16 chapters, is just flat out wrong because it ignores all the other stuff.

 

Just admit that and move on.

[DreadtechSavant]

Well I liked the story and as soon as they mentioned that there was a season two, I never thought all ends would be tied up by end of chapter 16.

 

To put this in film terms it be like the OP complaining because Vader escaped the death star at the end of A New Hope. Also every trilogy in the EU books had a similar ending by end of book one, and book 2. that's why there's a 3rd book.

 

You start by saying you have played for 5 years (whoopee, sorry but that means nothing to me) So my question would be as a Star Wars fan, How did not not see this coming?

 

 

I did months back.

[BorisKarloffe]

Doesn't matter, because you get those things regardless of whether they are the reasons you subbed or not. This isn't a matter of opinion, it's demonstrable fact that OP's argument, that you paid such and such for the 16 chapters, is just flat out wrong because it ignores all the other stuff.

 

Just admit that and move on.

 

Keep drinking the Bioware koolaid. You're willing to blame players for following their model, but fail to see why Bioware would have any blame in the matter. Geez, logic much?

 

So folks defending Bioware basically have to resort to one of three arguments here:

1. Just wait, next year.....

2. Technically, one or two choices mattered, therefore it excuses everything else.

3. Your sub money was really for all the other game stuff (the recycled stuff Bioware doesn't care about and isn't developing), but you were stupid to only play KotFE with it.

 

If you can't see the problem with this, then have fun with the **** show next season, but don't expect anyone to get any happier or anything to improve. Done here.

[bassfu]

This game isn't an MMO anymore, BW can have my founder title back. I'll see them in a year to pay $15 for the last chapter of "season 2" or whatever the **** it is they're doing.

[Lightbanee]

As I said some people just live to have any reason at all to be toxic whiners

[aeterno]

So it's story content, but it doesn't count as story content because it doesn't match with the impression of KotFE having so much more story than the vanilla game at launch.

 

For me, those 8 class stories and the planet arcs all weave one bigger story, they intertwine, cross, run sometimes parallel sometimes consecutive, and tell the story from different perspectives under different aspects, but all with the player characters at the center.

 

RotHC reduced the perspectives to two, but was still a two-sides-of-the-story narrative lead by the player characters.

 

With KotFE (and SoR, too) we got one story, one player perspective and everything else told through cutscenes that often break immersion and RP by not even involving the player character. If I want a story told to me through cinematics I'll watch a movie. This is a game, I do want to play the story, play my character, not just watch both, and that involves and includes fights and traveling, but also interactive dialog, discovery, exploration, distraction, companion stories etc. etc.

 

Besides, KotFE is inflated, too, by transitions and, even more so, back-and-forth traveling on a small map, hampered by waves of tedious mobs. I'm playing only class story for the event and I end up with about 20-25 hours per class. With all taxi pads discovered by default and no cooldown on any of the QTs, transition and travel time makes up a small portion of that.

 

I didn't say it's more story than vanilla, I agreed with you there. I just said there is comparatively quite a bit of it. Focusing on the direct comparison that was made in the post I quoted, namely a class story run.

 

Expecting an expansion to rival vanilla game in size and scale is a pipe-dream in any game as the development cycle for base game tends to be 5 years+. Quality side on the other hand is objective I suppose. I found the KOTFE a step up in their cinematic design personally. Stuff actually happens in them and they're not large part cycling through the same few hand motions while the NPC tells you a story about what just happened off-screen.

 

My point under it all being that what they tried to do they did better (cinematic design wise) than in vanilla and in a reasonably large quantity for an expansion. I have no qualms saying the plot isn't exactly KOTOR quality wise nor that I'd prefer them cranking out class and faction stories but alas, that's not how the cookie crumbled after launch.

[BadHoneyBadger]

If you've been a sub since beta then you paid more for ROTHC and SOR than you did for KOTFE - and you would have spent the money you did "for KOTFE" whether KOTFE was released or not. If you wanted to save money, however, BW made it clear that all you had to do was sub for one month at the end of it. But that would have cut into your PVP time, right? Remember KOTFE did include PVP maps and balancing adjustments (and bug fixes) not to mention x-faction was introduced (as a pvper I'm not a happy camper at all right now but that doesn't mean BW's done nothing with it this year). Unless you do a lot of Cartel Market-type stuff (which you didn't mention) MMOs are just about the cheapest hobby you can have - going out to lunch at McDonald's 1x/week will cost you more, golf costs more, fishing costs more, going to nightclubs, movies, concerts or theatres remotely regularly - costs a lot more. If your played time for the last year was -just- what was needed for the story on one character then -maybe- you've got a case but that doesn't sound like you. If you want to complain about the story or BW's focus on it that is fine with me, but the money? Complete nonsense.

 

You said "maps", you mean one map. I personally like the map but I pvp with 3 different guilds and sometimes group with random people using voice chat. It seems the new map is more hated than Quesh Huttball.

[Vhaegrant]

I want to preface this post by saying I was in the first closed beta and have played this game uninterrupted for five years. I predominately play PvP and story content casually. The D/L event did not upset me, and I enjoyed it. There have been a lot of angry threads recently, and I really never thought I'd make one, but I think it's important to suggest to the developers that there are those of us who are dedicated to the game who are upset and who are not PvP gods and parse lords throwing a hissy fit (to paraphrase the caricatures I've seen thrown around on these forums).

 

Having said that, the way this recent story ended was patronizing and left me feeling robbed of time and money. Teachers don't make a lot of money, and I really felt that I had wasted a lot of it when I finished this chapter. Those of us who have the HK chapter payed substantially more for this expansion than we did for the original game ($120 in subs). Instead of 8, 3 chapter complete stories, we got 1 prologue. Can you imagine the antagonist at the end of the sith warrior story (to avoid spoilers) turning into a rakghoul and running off just to force you to play update 1.1? This is how the story of KOTFE felt. It was mercenary and flippant. I am not a money hamster running on a wheel towards mundane and outrageously protracted plot points. Many have compared it to serialized TV, but frankly, I didn't pay $120+ to watch MadMen. I paid 7.99.

 

I wanted to post this because I am not filled with rage nor do I represent some specifically slighted group in this game (raiders, for example). I have no bone to pick with it. I love it. It's probably my favorite game ever made. I have a folder of hundreds of screenshots of my sith warrior dating back to December 13th, 2011. But you've turned what I truly appreciated into something that feels very mercenary and frustrating. I would've been happy to keep playing and paying, but to be treated so poorly from a conceptual level makes me want to do neither for the first time in five years.

 

So, please, reconsider. Don't treat us like idiots. Don't only respond to positive posts on these forums. Usurious story is not what this game about.

 

So, OP is happy to pay a sub and then pay additional for expansion content that is all released in one go.

But, considers a roll out of monthly content for free poor value.

And they are a teacher!?

Obviously not a maths teacher

[Savej]

You said "maps", you mean one map. I personally like the map but I pvp with 3 different guilds and sometimes group with random people using voice chat. It seems the new map is more hated than Quesh Huttball.

 

There are two new pvp maps. I hated the Odessan map for my first few runs as well.