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I Just Don't Get It


TheAresian

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I don't post too often on these forums, mostly because I really don't have much to add that it as of great value to existing topical conversations. However, once in a while something will appear that either sparks an idea or repeats an idea so many times that, at the risk of postmortem equine flagellation, I will offer my particular perspective. In this case, I'm curious as to why it is people are still upset with so many changes of the sort that move the game away from an MMORPG.

 

Back in October, Senior Producer Bruce Maclean did a Developer Blog that sort of introduced what KotFE was going to try to be. See link here: http://www.swtor.com/info/news/blog/20151027

 

He states quite plainly that the game is a Star Wars RPG. True, he also wants the players to be able to enjoy it with friends, but I believe he does clearly make the distinction with his omission of the letters "MMO". This isn't the SWTOR it set out be. It's something new and it's never been marketed as anything but that since it was announced. And thus the title of this post.

 

I just don't get why it is that so many people are so unhappy about the game evolving into exactly what Mr. Maclean told us it was going to be. I'm not giving BW a free pass. Far from it. There are a myriad of things that seem to indicate that, for one reason or another, somebody's dropping the ball. Bugs, exploits, imbalances, repairs taking forever... add your complaint to the list.... but the one thing that BW isn't guilty of is misrepresentation.

 

Thank you.

 

I now open the floor to comments, complaints, trolls, questions, answers and any order type of comment I have overlooked.

 

As a sort of random aside, what are your feelings on the Oxford comma? I feel the list looks better without it but some may disagree.

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I

I just don't get why it is that so many people are so unhappy about the game evolving into exactly what Mr. Maclean told us it was going to be.

 

You probably do, but in case you don't, I'll do what I can to help.

 

They announced the direction that the game was taking, and by and large have delivered that vision. Note, however, that the vision is different from the vision of the game in prior years. That's what got many people upset. Up until KOTFE, the design direction was that of a classic MMO and all the elements therein, with the hook of a personal story. Now the MMO elements have been sidelined in place of the story.

 

Yes we were told it was coming, but not everyone approves of that change. Getting upset and making noise is often the most reliable way to get change (for better or worse).

 

Do you remember Quikster, the Netflix spin-off company? Basically Netflix laid out a plan to split off its streaming and DVD-by-mail services into two companies. Much like with Bioware and KOTFE, this change in vision was announced well in advance. Subscribers didn't appreciate this new vision so they complained in such large numbers that Netflix canceled the plan altogether, keeping Netflix as it was. Keep in mind Netflix wasn't required to bend to public pressure, and Netflix subscribers were free to unsubscribe and choose another service. However, by getting upset and lobbying for change, subscribers were able to keep the service they wanted, as they wanted it.

 

KOTFE was in development long before they announced it, of course. The decisions had been committed to months in advance in this game, but here's the thing--Bioware reads the forums. They really do. GSF, GSH, ToS/Rav Hard Modes's difficulty and even KOTFE's story focus were all a response to player feedback. Development time just means that there's about a year or two gap between when they decide to implement feedback and when we see it. Every "I'm unsubscribing", "this game is broken", "we need more/less x" thread helps contribute to vision of the game we'll see in a year or so.

 

So that's why a lot of people are upset, and why that's a good thing. Likewise, if the people like the vision Bioware has given us, posting that feedback can only help too.

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Take a BW RP game. Create a sequel. Break it into several parts. Release this parts monthly. Fuse early access with a bug-testing. Say that “decisions matter”. Be not afraid of changing a story draft to create more tension. Keep it hight. Remove ability to save and reload.

 

I still enjoy some of an old content. FP PUGs now can provide me with a challenge worthy of a NiM raid, so no complaints here. But I can not force myself to play Chapter X on any of my toons.

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i have the sensation they tried to create a kotor 3, failing.

in the meanwhile they milk the sub model and keep CM healthy.

if kofte was released as standalone kotor 3, it would have taken a 3/10 on all review sites and burn in the oblivion in a month.

 

they need to proceed with the SW MMO, forget the plan to milk subs releasing 20 minutes worth content. it's repeatable but horrible to do. chapters have a terrible gameplay..i couldn't go beyond chapter 9..it's ridicolous on non force users and the alliance system is just a time/credit sink.

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OP I agree with you completely my main gripe is the lack of quality control this game has. However I know what I got into paying for my sub and even though I want new group content I know they were straight up about what KOTFE would be in my opinion. Yeah saying BW lied about group content would be asinine but I really hope they don't neglect it like they have for such a long time, playing with friends and others is what I love best about this game but I realize it may not be that way for others.
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[...]I just don't get why it is that so many people are so unhappy about the game evolving into exactly what Mr. Maclean told us it was going to be. I'm not giving BW a free pass. Far from it. There are a myriad of things that seem to indicate that, for one reason or another, somebody's dropping the ball. Bugs, exploits, imbalances, repairs taking forever... add your complaint to the list.... but the one thing that BW isn't guilty of is misrepresentation. [...]

 

Off the top of my head, I'd say a non-exhaustive list of reasons for people complaining includes:

  1. Not everyone who plays the game / posts on the forums necessarily reads every blog, interview, and article written about the game, so a good number may not have seen the comments you mentioned. BW / EA is more than capable of adequately 'spreading the word' when they want to, and they certainly haven't been shouting "SWTOR is no longer really an MMO" from the rooftops - which raises a legitimate question of whether that is really the message they have been trying to send.
  2. Not everyone who did read the blog is likely to interpret the simple 'omission' of the term "MMO" as such a radical renunciation of the genre for this game. Particularly when James Ohlen is tweeting about doing more co-op content.
  3. Even if someone does believe that BW has adequately announced an intent to shift away from the genre, it doesn't mean that s/he necessarily agrees with such a decision, and as such s/he might still be looking to express that dissatisfaction with BW's plans.
  4. This game was marketed, released, and sold as an MMO for years before that blog came out. Even if it was adequate notice that a radical change in direction was coming, someone could still reasonably feel that - in the broader context of the game's lifespan - such a change represented a 'bait-and-switch' move, particularly if s/he invested time, money, and passion into the game on the basis of it being an MMO.

 

As a sort of random aside, what are your feelings on the Oxford comma? I feel the list looks better without it but some may disagree.

 

Unequivocally in favor of it. :D

Edited by DarthDymond
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I just don't get why it is that so many people are so unhappy about the game evolving into exactly what Mr. Maclean told us it was going to be. I'm not giving BW a free pass. Far from it. There are a myriad of things that seem to indicate that, for one reason or another, somebody's dropping the ball. Bugs, exploits, imbalances, repairs taking forever... add your complaint to the list.... but the one thing that BW isn't guilty of is misrepresentation.

 

Thank you.

 

I now open the floor to comments, complaints, trolls, questions, answers and any order type of comment I have overlooked.

 

As a sort of random aside, what are your feelings on the Oxford comma? I feel the list looks better without it but some may disagree.

 

I think you are troll here or you are just being ignorant.

 

The dev post you linked dates from 2015. But the game has been around since 2011. In these 4 years, players came to the game who wanted to play SWTOR as what it was back then: a MMORPG. And those people are of course disappointed that the new content is not MMO based. So in the end we didn't get what we could expect when we started playing this game.

 

I just don't get it that you don't get it.

Edited by Rithoma
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I'm firmly in the camp that SWTOR shouldn't have been an MMO to begin with. It's a crappy unoriginal mmorpg, it's mmo mechanics are nothing new at all. Any player can play any number of mmos on the market who does it better than BW. The only thing BW excel at (in some way) is the story content which doesn't require a group to play anyway. And it's the story that draws folks into giving the game a shot, not the mmo aspects. Sure, a Star Wars mmo may have drawn some in, but the novelty has worn off for most. If anything, BW is realizing that they would rather tell a single player story than create more terrible mmo content. What makes BW shady (In my opinion) is charging a monthly sub for what is pretty much a poorly implemented single player episodic game. But because of the MMO title, they can get away with it...after all, they're not really deceiving anyone since it is an MMO.

 

I think BW was hoping that KOTFE revive the game and keep it going and it is in some ways, I've met a few players who say they are only playing for the story and don't care at all for the alliance stuff, pvp, raids et al. So I know that once KOTFE is done the only players who will be left are mmo players and some star wars fans. By then, I think BW would move on to creating a single player star wars game again or try to milk more sub money by creating yet another episodic expansion. IMO, I think KOTFE's end should simply be the end of the game.

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As a sort of random aside, what are your feelings on the Oxford comma? I feel the list looks better without it but some may disagree.

The Oxford comma is the difference between Bill, Mary and Fred (are Mary and Fred a couple???) and Bill, Mary, and Fred. Without it, you have no way of making that distinction. There are numerous other examples. My mind tends to wander off on tangents when I read something that lacks an Oxford comma, because it can create some ambiguous statements.

 

I view a comma as a short pause when reading. If you are just saying out loud "Bill, Mary(,) and Fred," where are the pauses? Personally, I would say "Bill (pause), Mary (pause), and Fred." I would certainly not say "Bill (pause), Mary and Fred." You may have to exaggerate the pauses a little bit in order to hear the difference, but that Oxford comma is there when we speak. It may be small and insignificant, but if we want to get technical, it's really there.

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As a sort of random aside, what are your feelings on the Oxford comma? I feel the list looks better without it but some may disagree.

 

Honestly, it's maddening when people leave that last comma out. The comma is there to separate items in a list. The and is there to both link the separate items and to provide closure to the list.

 

Leaving out the comma before the and joins the last two items on the list, separately from the other items. Therefore, it also fails to close the list, leaving that task to the period. The result is an incomplete sentence. Not only is the sentence incomplete, but it may very well fail to convey the intended message.

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I feel the game's far from being single-player.

Right now, with the huge amount of single player content, it's shifting towards being like Diablo or The Division. KOTFE has been primarily single player. Lots of stuff you can do by yourself, then some content you can group up for.

 

And yeah, that raises the question: why subscriptions?

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I'm firmly in the camp that SWTOR shouldn't have been an MMO to begin with. It's a crappy unoriginal mmorpg, it's mmo mechanics are nothing new at all. Any player can play any number of mmos on the market who does it better than BW. The only thing BW excel at (in some way) is the story content which doesn't require a group to play anyway. And it's the story that draws folks into giving the game a shot, not the mmo aspects. Sure, a Star Wars mmo may have drawn some in, but the novelty has worn off for most. If anything, BW is realizing that they would rather tell a single player story than create more terrible mmo content. What makes BW shady (In my opinion) is charging a monthly sub for what is pretty much a poorly implemented single player episodic game. But because of the MMO title, they can get away with it...after all, they're not really deceiving anyone since it is an MMO.

 

I think BW was hoping that KOTFE revive the game and keep it going and it is in some ways, I've met a few players who say they are only playing for the story and don't care at all for the alliance stuff, pvp, raids et al. So I know that once KOTFE is done the only players who will be left are mmo players and some star wars fans. By then, I think BW would move on to creating a single player star wars game again or try to milk more sub money by creating yet another episodic expansion. IMO, I think KOTFE's end should simply be the end of the game.

 

I prefer swtor over any mmo out there, and while the star wars setting may have helped I still enjoy the mechanics.

This game is the only game that has kept me as a (more or less) constant sub for years.

The shift to single player content is really putting me off though, it's repeatable and """choices matter""" but there's no reason to go through the content more than once.

The writing is nowhere near as good as the class stories anyway. IIRC the main team left around the time Makeb was finished, and it shows.

Edited by Ruhun
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And yeah, that raises the question: why subscriptions?

 

Because after you are done with the story you do group content if that's your thing? :confused:

Or not, like most of us, but still play on their servers and on their rules so you pay a subscription.

Or not and you play other games.

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I still enjoy some of an old content. FP PUGs now can provide me with a challenge worthy of a NiM raid, so no complaints here. But I can not force myself to play Chapter X on any of my toons.

 

I couldn't help but laugh at this because its so true.

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There is nothing wrong with a Star Wars MMO, but why have a sub for a single player game?

 

I don't agree that SWTOR really qualifies as a singleplayer game...but if it did, this would be a single player game that gets monthly content updates and doesn't charge us an extra $60 for new expansions. I can't think of another singleplayer game that offers those benefits. Probably because they're not funded by monthly subscription fees.

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I don't agree that SWTOR really qualifies as a singleplayer game...but if it did, this would be a single player game that gets monthly content updates and doesn't charge us an extra $60 for new expansions. I can't think of another singleplayer game that offers those benefits. Probably because they're not funded by monthly subscription fees.

 

by monthly content update you mean the 15 minute 'story', yeah cos that's worth 15 bucks, go buy a book...

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by monthly content update you mean the 15 minute 'story', yeah cos that's worth 15 bucks, go buy a book...

 

People like you need to leave already.

 

You're miserable, both to talk to and as a "community member"

 

Just go.

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I don't agree that SWTOR really qualifies as a singleplayer game...but if it did, this would be a single player game that gets monthly content updates and doesn't charge us an extra $60 for new expansions. I can't think of another singleplayer game that offers those benefits. Probably because they're not funded by monthly subscription fees.

 

To be fair, if we accept that it's a single player game, we'd be best served comparing it to Bioware's other properties Let's use Dragon Age Inquisition.

 

Assume we buy both right now:

DA:I costs 20.00 and gives you the base game with no DLC

SWTOR costs 15 dollars and gives you the base game+KOTFE 1-12.

 

For the above, note that I'm fully aware SWTOR's base game is free to play, and DA:I originally cost 60 dollars. However, SWTOR used to cost 50 dollars for the base game. I figured the best way to compare them would be at current market value.

 

Dragon Age's story DLC: Jaws of Hakkon, Descent, and Trespasser cost $15 each, and each provides 5 1/2 hours of gameplay each for just the main story and 9 hours for a completionist playthrough (according to howlongtobeat.com).

 

Each monthly DLC for KotFE has between 30 minutes to an hour's worth of playtime, and costs 15 dollars for the subscription. An hour to an hour and a half for a completionist playthough (this is an estimate, based on how long my mother takes to play. She's very slow and spends a long time looking at the scenery and reading codex entries.)

 

Dragon Age Inquisition offers periodical balance patches free of charge, and 3 larger scale multiplayer co-op patches with new characters, maps, and enemies, also free of charge.

 

KOTFE offers periodical balance patches free of charge, a new warzone, new arena, and a single or multiplayer co-op challenge arena in the Eternal Championship.

 

So based on what I can see, month-to-month A true singleplayer game provides more content per dollar spent if you remain subscribed to SWTOR from KOTFE's release through Chapter 16.

 

However! SWTOR provides more entertainment per dollar spent if you choose not to subscribe until KOTFE is fully released.

 

I won't be making a value statement on whether this makes subscribing to KOTFE worth it. That's for you to decide. If we do compare it to a single player game, however, this might help put things in perspective.

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