Marr and Satele

[Euphrosyne]

Searching for intersubjective philosophical truth in a fictional setting with parameters that are constantly changed at the whim of the writers is a fool's errand.

I believe so for Marr as well. Think someone mentioned it earlier.

Yes.

Edited April 14, 2016 by Euphrosyne

[RandomName_Ru]

Look like devs are going for a replay bonus then you go for it second time and notice all foreshadowing and it all makes perfect sense. Not an easy task.

 

Searching for intersubjective philosophical truth in a fictional setting with parameters that are constantly changed at the whim of the writers is a fool's errand.

 

True. To be fair it's started then people asked if it's possible for someone like Satele and Marr to change their views, even if they had 5 years. While the spoilers do answer the topic, let's not forget that the sources do not give a 100% guarantee that it will be like this in the end. Some devs leave little traps to screw with inquisitive people and some devs can change quite a lot before release of a final product just to make story more interesting or due to time/resources constraints.

[YaanaOhtar]

I probably should have been more clear. The Son embodies traits generally found by people who claim to align with the Dark Side. Selfishness, passion, etc. The daughter is the equal and opposite force to the Son, selflessness, compassion and serenity. The way I personally view it, people in the Star Wars universe use the "Sides" to justify their actions for doing things. "I did these selfish things because the dark side pulled me to it," and Jedi justify their actions because of their alignment plenty of times as well. I personally believe that these people are blaming the force for their own human tendencies. The Force doesn't really have any morals, it's beyond that, the Force simply aims to create a balance and harmony in the galaxy. So if there are people who use the force for selfish purposes, then there needs to be an equal amount of people who use the force for selfless purposes. Again, this is more my personal theory about how the Unifying Force applies to everyone and how most people view the Force and use it to justify their actions.

 

That being said, it's entirely possible that none of these theories are totally accurate and that the true nature of the Force is somewhere in between. Maybe there are "Sides" so to speak but the Force seeks to balance everything out.

 

Oh please.... There is Dark Side and Light side of the Force, nothing in between. Watch the clone wars again, the Father had been trying to stop the Brother - Dark side - to do anything to the Sister - Light side -. And the idea of the force has no side is a wet dream of those who want to be cool and not bound by the LIGHT side boundary but also dont want to be label as bad. Using lightning itself is bad, why ? Because you are not trying to knock the person out like when a Jedi blast s.o, you are trying to electrocute them, you want them to feel pain and suffering. Same with using Choke, it is not the same with telekinesis of the jedi , you want the other person to suffocate, to feal fear, to suffering. That are all dark side of the force. Even a normal telekinesis, Jedi can only access to with through calm and empty their mind, Sith can only access to it through anger. There is nothing in between. Dont try to pull the Asian philosophy in here, that is a stupid idea, there is good so there must be evil ?

[DeltaBos]

Oh please.... There is Dark Side and Light side of the Force, nothing in between. Watch the clone wars again, the Father had been trying to stop the Brother - Dark side - to do anything to the Sister - Light side -. And the idea of the force has no side is a wet dream of those who want to be cool and not bound by the LIGHT side boundary but also dont want to be label as bad. Using lightning itself is bad, why ? Because you are not trying to knock the person out like when a Jedi blast s.o, you are trying to electrocute them, you want them to feel pain and suffering. Same with using Choke, it is not the same with telekinesis of the jedi , you want the other person to suffocate, to feal fear, to suffering. That are all dark side of the force. Even a normal telekinesis, Jedi can only access to with through calm and empty their mind, Sith can only access to it through anger. There is nothing in between. Dont try to pull the Asian philosophy in here, that is a stupid idea, there is good so there must be evil ?

 

Well if you don't want to take my word for it, just look at the setup of the Monastery of Mortis. They actually do have a yin/yang arena where Anakin channels the force in order to control the Son and the Daughter. The Father represented total balance between good and evil, and he hoped Anakin would fill the same role when he was gone. And yes, I am saying that there is good, so there must be evil. You can't have one without the other, that's the purpose the Jedi and Sith serve, to keep each other in check. They serve the exact same purpose that the Son and Daughter serve. They're opposites in every way, every time Abeloth (the embodiment of chaos who fed off of imbalances in the Force) escapes confinement, the only way to stop her was the Son and Daughter teaming up. Overall, I'm not trying to insert philosophy into this, it's already there and it just tends to make the most sense.

[adormitul]

When they died the strongest sith and the strongest jedi at that time took their place. Which kinda shows that you need both to be the strongest force user you can be.

Now sure our character even mentioned that they defeated hordes of knights of Zaakul but to be fair I said the best they can be and well that is the best most of the knights are.

[Audoucet]

Abeloth doesn't exist, it's a noncanonical character.

[adormitul]

Abeloth doesn't exist, it's a noncanonical character.

 

This game is noncanonical also so what is your point?

[Audoucet]

This game is noncanonical also so what is your point?

 

That's not an argument to accept anything and everything. And my point is people thinking that the dark side doesn't exist are delusional.

[DeltaBos]

Abeloth doesn't exist, it's a noncanonical character.

 

Legends is and always will be the superior cannon.

[Audoucet]

Legends is and always will be the superior cannon.

 

Nope. I'm past 8 years old. I don't decide what's true based on what I want any more.

[DeltaBos]

Nope. I'm past 8 years old. I don't decide what's true based on what I want any more.

 

Well it is what it is. I've presented my case to the best of my abilities to try and highlight my point of view on the subject of the Force. I've done my best to try and discuss the various points without disregarding or disrespecting your thoughts on the subject. That being said, this discussion has apparently devolved to the point of insinuating that I am 8, so clearly we're not going to get anywhere from here. Thank you for your time and presenting your thoughts on the subject.

[YaanaOhtar]

Well if you don't want to take my word for it, just look at the setup of the Monastery of Mortis. They actually do have a yin/yang arena where Anakin channels the force in order to control the Son and the Daughter. The Father represented total balance between good and evil, and he hoped Anakin would fill the same role when he was gone. And yes, I am saying that there is good, so there must be evil. You can't have one without the other, that's the purpose the Jedi and Sith serve, to keep each other in check. They serve the exact same purpose that the Son and Daughter serve. They're opposites in every way, every time Abeloth (the embodiment of chaos who fed off of imbalances in the Force) escapes confinement, the only way to stop her was the Son and Daughter teaming up. Overall, I'm not trying to insert philosophy into this, it's already there and it just tends to make the most sense.

 

Do you know how stupidly contradicted you idea is ? First you were all unity of the force, the force is neutral, etc.. etc.. Then now you said there is dark and light of the force. And please stop fantasizing, blance between good and evil to fight chaos ? What kind of weed did you smoke ? Good = Order = Harmony. Evil = Chaos. The Sith and the brother represented it very well : the sith with theirs backstabbing, killing,.... ; the brother alway try to push his sister. They are chaos. That ep was meant to forseen the fall of Anikin and a chaos time in the galaxy.

[Euphrosyne]

Legends is and always will be the superior cannon.

No, that would be the canon de 75 modèle 1897.

[starwarsfansix]

I feel like the people that have as a main argument "Disney retconned everything" are trying really hard to convince everyone else to erase the EU from their minds. It ain't up to you mates, if someone choose to ignore everything made by Disney and accept the EU as pure canon that's his choice and vice versa. Right or wrong, he's entitled to his opinion. And I'm pretty sure you won't convince anyone that he's wrong and you're right when you say he needs to wake up and stop being a kid. Maybe you should stop being so tunnel visioned and ignorant of everything else.

 

Back to the topic, I find it hard to believe Marr and Satele were puppets/illusions of Vitiate. I'm more inclined to believe they took the loss of the war too deeply. I think they blame themselves for not preparing/protecting their respective governments better. That's wrong from where I'm standing, mainly because I believe Arcann won because he had technological advantage, not because he and his knights are not bound by codes. When I think about it, this whole conflict is a cameo of Revan and Malak's invasion on the Republic, only taken to the extreme in every possible way.

[Audoucet]

I feel like the people that have as a main argument "Disney retconned everything" are trying really hard to convince everyone else to erase the EU from their minds. It ain't up to you mates, if someone choose to ignore everything made by Disney and accept the EU as pure canon that's his choice and vice versa. Right or wrong, he's entitled to his opinion. And I'm pretty sure you won't convince anyone that he's wrong and you're right when you say he needs to wake up and stop being a kid. Maybe you should stop being so tunnel visioned and ignorant of everything else.

 

I don't care about what he thinks, but when you use a fact as an argument in a debate, well you must accept that the validity of the fact will be discussed.

 

Obscure old stories from Legends cant be used as an argument about the nature of The Force, especially when it contradicts official Canon.

 

I'm not judging opinions, I'm judging using of opinions as facts in a debate.

 

Don't expect me to shut up, when someone says something like that :

 

Okay after going through the last several posts, I feel like the most people don't really get how the force works. First off, there IS NO Light and Dark side of the force.

[Euphrosyne]

Back to the topic, I find it hard to believe Marr and Satele were puppets/illusions of Vitiate.

Why is that?

[starwarsfansix]

Why is that?

First, because we see them at the end of chapter 9. Second, because I find the behaviour of Satele very similar to post-Clone Wars Yoda (pretty sure Bio writers did this on purpose). And Marr, well, how many sith would order a ceasefire on their supposedly mortal enemies under any circumstances? His evolution, so to speak, doesn't surprise me that much. Maybe they truly believe they are to blame for all the deaths and losses but all I can learn from their mistakes is to not underestimate the Eternal Fleet. I suppose that's what cost them the war, seeing Marr took like 4 ships to investigate the attackers that pretty much roflstomped Korriban.

[LordXantor]

First, because we see them at the end of chapter 9. Second, because I find the behaviour of Satele very similar to post-Clone Wars Yoda (pretty sure Bio writers did this on purpose). And Marr, well, how many sith would order a ceasefire on their supposedly mortal enemies under any circumstances? His evolution, so to speak, doesn't surprise me that much. Maybe they truly believe they are to blame for all the deaths and losses but all I can learn from their mistakes is to not underestimate the Eternal Fleet. I suppose that's what cost them the war, seeing Marr took like 4 ships to investigate the attackers that pretty much roflstomped Korriban.

 

I can explain that shorter and easier: they have depression

[Lunafox]

I was just thinking...what if it's not Valkorian manipulating these imposters that are Satele and Marr...what if it's Thexxan who's doing it...it seems that he wants to provide a way to kill his brother. Though I don't get the feeling he'd hate Vaylin...it sounds like they might have actually gotten along, cause he brought her presents from his trips and conquests.

 

I reckon Thexxan will likely show up at some point, and I could see him wanting his vengeance against his brother enough to say, oh here's a weapon that'll kill him.

[starwarsfansix]

I can explain that shorter and easier: they have depression

Haha, yeah, that's a much shorter way to explain my thoughts on the matter.

 

I was just thinking...what if it's not Valkorian manipulating these imposters that are Satele and Marr...what if it's Thexxan who's doing it...it seems that he wants to provide a way to kill his brother. Though I don't get the feeling he'd hate Vaylin...it sounds like they might have actually gotten along, cause he brought her presents from his trips and conquests.

 

I reckon Thexxan will likely show up at some point, and I could see him wanting his vengeance against his brother enough to say, oh here's a weapon that'll kill him.

 

I doubt Thexan is powerful enough to take the form of a force ghost, and even then I doubt he'd want the death of his brother. I think he would feel pity instead of hate if he was able to see what Arcann has become.

[Audoucet]

I doubt Thexan is powerful enough to take the form of a force ghost

 

Everybody and their mothers can become force ghosts, in SWTOR.

[LordXantor]

Everybody and their mothers can become force ghosts, in SWTOR.

 

yep SWTOR took conon quite loosely and after EU and SWTOR is no longer canon they can do whatever they want.

[Daex]

Just like certain people pointed out, I was under the impression they are extremely disappointed. They are angry and sad they could not have done more to protect their people. They were both seen as stalwarts and, in their eyes, they both failed. So, they called upon each other (or whatever they have done) because there is nobody else who knows how they feel. They were enemies to each other, not just because Satele is Republic and Marr is Empire, more because they both were seen as someone who will protect their people and defeat of one is a huge wound to Republic/Empire.

 

Being in a same position, they sat down and talked to each other seeing they are the same state, different color. So, they tried to play Dark Side-Light Side game for one last time and "figured" that is exactly why they failed. In my opinion, Satele did change more than Marr. That is only because she is a Jedi. A change withing a Jedi is easier to spot than a change within a Sith Marr, who was not a maniac to begin with.

 

Downside is Marr becoming extremely boring. My opinion.

 

The only thing I "concluded" is that wherever did Valkorion go, Satele and Marr went that way, too. It seemed like they are following him not us.

 

So, that was my impression but of course, anything is possible! (we are unstoppable...me and my girlzzz)

Edited April 16, 2016 by Daex

[Euphrosyne]

First, because we see them at the end of chapter 9. Second, because I find the behaviour of Satele very similar to post-Clone Wars Yoda (pretty sure Bio writers did this on purpose). And Marr, well, how many sith would order a ceasefire on their supposedly mortal enemies under any circumstances? His evolution, so to speak, doesn't surprise me that much. Maybe they truly believe they are to blame for all the deaths and losses but all I can learn from their mistakes is to not underestimate the Eternal Fleet. I suppose that's what cost them the war, seeing Marr took like 4 ships to investigate the attackers that pretty much roflstomped Korriban.

I respect your opinion. I think that it is not founded on well-thought-out grounds, and I disagree with it, but we'll see.

[AshlaBoga]

First, because we see them at the end of chapter 9. Second, because I find the behaviour of Satele very similar to post-Clone Wars Yoda (pretty sure Bio writers did this on purpose). And Marr, well, how many sith would order a ceasefire on their supposedly mortal enemies under any circumstances? His evolution, so to speak, doesn't surprise me that much. Maybe they truly believe they are to blame for all the deaths and losses but all I can learn from their mistakes is to not underestimate the Eternal Fleet. I suppose that's what cost them the war, seeing Marr took like 4 ships to investigate the attackers that pretty much roflstomped Korriban.

 

I still think they were illusions.