Marr and Satele

[PadsterPwns]

A glimmer of hope.

 

You are right, But you will always find people telling you otherwise because they WANT to "be dark AND nice". Don't listen to them. Hell, don't even listen to me, just listen to the overwhelmingly obvious proofs in the movies and TV shows.

 

They will always try to exploit one or two examples, 90% of the time not even canonical, but don't lose sight of the overwhelming number of counterexamples.

 

And don't bother with Katarn, it's like Revan, it was a player character in a RPG. And Jacen Solo's canonical version is actually Kailo Ren.

 

What is using the dark side like ? It's mostly like using cocaine morphin and methamphetamine to fight the bad guys. Some won't IMMEDIATELY go batcrap crazy, Kailo Ren is a good example, but most of the time they'll just go full Anakin with red eyes in 30 minutes.

Thanks, it's true that practically all of the "gray" Force users are results of RPG's, I don't really feel to passionate about it, I just find it strange that these characters (Katarn I kinda understand, never understood the Revan love) have so many fans despite their main gimmick making no sense and having loads of canonical evidence against it.

[Slowpokeking]

Thanks, it's true that practically all of the "gray" Force users are results of RPG's, I don't really feel to passionate about it, I just find it strange that these characters (Katarn I kinda understand, never understood the Revan love) have so many fans despite their main gimmick making no sense and having loads of canonical evidence against it.

 

Gray could work on 1-2 individuals, but it 's not the right way to go, it's not above light and darkness, simple.

 

How is Arcann gray at all? The guy is no different than a Sith, even worse since he had committed totally unnecessary atrocity against his own knights and let many Zakuul people went to the others' side. As for Valkorion, haha he is pretty much the most dark sided guy in the whole SWOTR franchise.

[Slowpokeking]

 

What is using the dark side like ? It's mostly like using cocaine morphin and methamphetamine to fight the bad guys. Some won't IMMEDIATELY go batcrap crazy, Kailo Ren is a good example, but most of the time they'll just go full Anakin with red eyes in 30 minutes.

Ulic being the perfect example.

 

Also how is Arcann gray at all, as a character? The guy is even more cruel and short-tempered than a lot of the Sith, his sister is also no different than most of the female Sith.

[PadsterPwns]

How is Arcann gray at all? The guy is no different than a Sith, even worse since he had committed totally unnecessary atrocity against his own knights and let many Zakuul people went to the others' side. As for Valkorion, haha he is pretty much the most dark sided guy in the whole SWOTR franchise.

I agree, Valky is clearly talking bs claiming that he's above Sith and Jedi when he basically is still a Sith. As for Arcann, agreed as well.

[PadsterPwns]

Ulic being the perfect example.

Anakin too, his fall pretty much started in AotC, it simply concluded in RotS.

[Slowpokeking]

I think morality needs to be separated with power set, they are not the same thing.

 

I don't like the "I do evil thing because it's evil" villains, but some nicely portrayed pure evil villains could be awesome, like Palpatine. Some villains aren't purely bad to everyone either. Malgus is a Sith but he also got many good points like respect power regardless of your race. Same with Jadus, the guy's darkness is close to the Dread Masters but he respects the PC and offer you power compare to other Sith.

[Euphrosyne]

What is using the dark side like ? It's mostly like using cocaine morphin and methamphetamine to fight the bad guys.

 

Even the Nazis stopped having their troops take Pervitin when they realized how badly it messed them up later.

[starwarsfansix]

I don't really like that view of the Force tbh, I get that it's supposed to be more like real life morals applied to the Force but... I feel like the person who wrote that bit forgot that the Dark Side literally tempts and corrupts people.

Well, Katarn is not what you'd call a textbook example of how jedi are supposed to operate. Him being one of the very few force users in the whole SW lore that walks the border between light and dark (and he doesn't go that deep or that often into the dark side anyway) speaks of the difficulty of maintaining that balance. Besides, the Jedi order after RotJ is very different from the Jedi order in TOR or during the prequels.

 

And don't bother with Katarn, it's like Revan, it was a player character in a RPG.

 

Uh, what? Jedi Outcast, and I'm pretty sure the other games with Katarn as main protagonist, classify as FPS. You got a light side and a dark side ending in some of the games, but the main story remains pretty much the same. I never said Katarn was the most OP lightsaber jockey in existence, and that grey-ish Jedi kick the a*ses of everyone and everything. I just gave an example, one of the very few, about how one can use both sides of the Force without enslaving himself to them, so to speak.

Edited April 11, 2016 by starwarsfansix

[DeltaBos]

Okay after going through the last several posts, I feel like the most people don't really get how the force works. First off, there IS NO Light and Dark side of the force. The force is not a moody child that has the occasional mood swing, sometimes supporting the good guys and other times letting the dark side flourish. It's more like a yin/yang thing. It's constantly pushing for balance. Although the clone wars wasn't the best TV show out there, I STRONGLY recommend everyone check out the Mortis story arc as it puts the force in a much easier to understand perspective. Jedi and Sith exist to cancel each other out. Their ideologies result in them constantly trying to rid the galaxy of the other, but they miss the point that the force is pushing for a balance between the two. The force is NOT inherently good or evil, it's how each individual wields its power. Historically, Jedi and Sith who no longer allow the rules of each organization to restrain them develop their potential. Jedi are bound by their ideologies that the force should only be used for good, and that the Jedi need to strip themselves of emotion. The Sith, who serve the purpose of cancelling out the Jedi, have the exact opposite philosophy, that the force should be used to subjugate others, and that emotions such as compassion and mercy should be shunned. Removing these labels and these over the top restraints that both Jedi and Sith put on their members allows the force user to open themselves up more fully and develop their potential.

 

TL;DR The force is pushing for balance, the Jedi and the Sith restrain their members too much and really only serve the purpose of cancelling each other out. Once a force user frees themselves of the chains that both organizations put on its members, they can truly unleash their potential.

[Slowpokeking]

Okay after going through the last several posts, I feel like the most people don't really get how the force works. First off, there IS NO Light and Dark side of the force. The force is not a moody child that has the occasional mood swing, sometimes supporting the good guys and other times letting the dark side flourish. It's more like a yin/yang thing. It's constantly pushing for balance. Although the clone wars wasn't the best TV show out there, I STRONGLY recommend everyone check out the Mortis story arc as it puts the force in a much easier to understand perspective. Jedi and Sith exist to cancel each other out. Their ideologies result in them constantly trying to rid the galaxy of the other, but they miss the point that the force is pushing for a balance between the two. The force is NOT inherently good or evil, it's how each individual wields its power. Historically, Jedi and Sith who no longer allow the rules of each organization to restrain them develop their potential. Jedi are bound by their ideologies that the force should only be used for good, and that the Jedi need to strip themselves of emotion. The Sith, who serve the purpose of cancelling out the Jedi, have the exact opposite philosophy, that the force should be used to subjugate others, and that emotions such as compassion and mercy should be shunned. Removing these labels and these over the top restraints that both Jedi and Sith put on their members allows the force user to open themselves up more fully and develop their potential.

 

TL;DR The force is pushing for balance, the Jedi and the Sith restrain their members too much and really only serve the purpose of cancelling each other out. Once a force user frees themselves of the chains that both organizations put on its members, they can truly unleash their potential.

Sorry there is Light and Dark side, even before the Jedi and Sith had existed. In history, there was the Je'daii Order, who used both the light and the dark side but it didn't work out because you must go to one side to fully develop its power and thus you need to abandon the other side. So they split and became the Jedi and Sith. Many non related Force organizations also use Light/Dark side.

 

As for Mortis, we got the Son and the Daughter, who wield the Darkness and Light.

Edited April 11, 2016 by Slowpokeking

[Slowpokeking]

Seriously, this has nothing to do morality or philosophy, Light/Dark Side is purely power set. The Sith does not worship the Dark Side, or the Force either, they prey on the Force and makes the Force to serve them.

[DeltaBos]

Sorry there is Light and Dark side, even before the Jedi and Sith had existed. In history, there was the Je'daii Order, who used both the light and the dark side but it didn't work out because you must go to one side to fully develop its power and thus you need to abandon the other side. So they split and became the Jedi and Sith. Many non related Force organizations also use Light/Dark side.

 

As for Mortis, we got the Son and the Daughter, who wield the Darkness and Light.

 

What about the Father, who embodied the balance between those two. It was his responsibility to keep the Son and Daughter in check, because without the other there would be only chaos (Abeloth). I swear this is like the Star Wars Trinity but nevertheless there's a balance between the embodiment of light and dark. If you look at Star Wars history, most MAJOR threats to the galaxy like Abeloth, Revan, etc. are defeated when Jedi and Sith and team up to defeat these threats. I'm of the philosophy that the Jedi and Sith basically need each other to balance each other out. The force and the story of Star Wars comes down to balance between the two sides.

[PadsterPwns]

Okay after going through the last several posts, I feel like the most people don't really get how the force works. First off, there IS NO Light and Dark side of the force. The force is not a moody child that has the occasional mood swing, sometimes supporting the good guys and other times letting the dark side flourish. It's more like a yin/yang thing. It's constantly pushing for balance. Although the clone wars wasn't the best TV show out there, I STRONGLY recommend everyone check out the Mortis story arc as it puts the force in a much easier to understand perspective. Jedi and Sith exist to cancel each other out. Their ideologies result in them constantly trying to rid the galaxy of the other, but they miss the point that the force is pushing for a balance between the two. The force is NOT inherently good or evil, it's how each individual wields its power. Historically, Jedi and Sith who no longer allow the rules of each organization to restrain them develop their potential. Jedi are bound by their ideologies that the force should only be used for good, and that the Jedi need to strip themselves of emotion. The Sith, who serve the purpose of cancelling out the Jedi, have the exact opposite philosophy, that the force should be used to subjugate others, and that emotions such as compassion and mercy should be shunned. Removing these labels and these over the top restraints that both Jedi and Sith put on their members allows the force user to open themselves up more fully and develop their potential.

 

TL;DR The force is pushing for balance, the Jedi and the Sith restrain their members too much and really only serve the purpose of cancelling each other out. Once a force user frees themselves of the chains that both organizations put on its members, they can truly unleash their potential.

As the poster above me said, there are two sides to the Force, the Daughter and the Son represent the Light and Dark respectively. If anything, the Mortis arc PROVES that there are two sides to the Force. Another bit of information that supports there being two sides of the Force is how Bane, Revan and Plagueis all state that drawing from the Dark Side has a completely different feeling than drawing from the Light. As for saying that only people who study both discover their true potential, that is only true to an extent. The novel Yoda: Dark Rendezvous explains how much power Yoda would likely have as a user of both sides but it also shows that Yoda would be drastically different in a bad way, in that he would have fallen and lost balance. This example applies to plenty of Jedi and Sith, they would gain power but would change completely. In addition, there are a few Jedi and Sith that outclass Revan and other "Grey" Force users despite them sticking to their path.

 

Edit: Didn't see your post above, I'll reply later.

Edited April 11, 2016 by PadsterPwns

[PadsterPwns]

Well, Katarn is not what you'd call a textbook example of how jedi are supposed to operate. Him being one of the very few force users in the whole SW lore that walks the border between light and dark (and he doesn't go that deep or that often into the dark side anyway) speaks of the difficulty of maintaining that balance. Besides, the Jedi order after RotJ is very different from the Jedi order in TOR or during the prequels.

Fair points, I like that he admits it's difficult and doesn't use the Dark Side like a switch.

[Slowpokeking]

What about the Father, who embodied the balance between those two. It was his responsibility to keep the Son and Daughter in check, because without the other there would be only chaos (Abeloth). I swear this is like the Star Wars Trinity but nevertheless there's a balance between the embodiment of light and dark. If you look at Star Wars history, most MAJOR threats to the galaxy like Abeloth, Revan, etc. are defeated when Jedi and Sith and team up to defeat these threats. I'm of the philosophy that the Jedi and Sith basically need each other to balance each other out. The force and the story of Star Wars comes down to balance between the two sides.

 

The Father could hold both sides, it doesn't mean light and darkness doesn't exist.

 

Really? Let's see the major threats:

 

Naga Sadow-Dark Side Sith

Exar Kun-Dark Side Sith

Darth Revan-Dark Side Sith

Sith Triumvirate-Dark Side Sith

In SWTOR:

The Dread Masters-Dark Side Sith

Revan-So called Grey, worse than a lot of Dark Siders

Vitiate-Dark Side, Sith, regardless what did he claim himself to be

 

 

Bane-Dark Side Sith

Palpatine-Dark Side Sith

Yuuzhan Vong-Mostly not Force users

Abeloth-Dark Side

Darth Krayt-Dark Side Sith

 

Many Sith doesn't want to eliminate the Jedi because of their philosophy or light side, it's mostly because the Jedi are blocking their way to achieve power and dominance.

[Slowpokeking]

Jedi doesn't eliminate the Sith because they have different philosophy, but because the Sith want to take over the galaxy, Sith wanted to take down the Jedi for the same reason, they didn't want someone to block in their way.

[DeltaBos]

The Father could hold both sides, it doesn't mean light and darkness doesn't exist.

 

Really? Let's see the major threats:

 

Naga Sadow-Dark Side Sith

Exar Kun-Dark Side Sith

Darth Revan-Dark Side Sith

Sith Triumvirate-Dark Side Sith

In SWTOR:

The Dread Masters-Dark Side Sith

Revan-So called Grey, worse than a lot of Dark Siders

Vitiate-Dark Side, Sith, regardless what did he claim himself to be

 

 

Bane-Dark Side Sith

Palpatine-Dark Side Sith

Yuuzhan Vong-Mostly not Force users

Abeloth-Dark Side

Darth Krayt-Dark Side Sith

 

Many Sith doesn't want to eliminate the Jedi because of their philosophy or light side, it's mostly because the Jedi are blocking their way to achieve power and dominance.

 

Okay leaders of the Sith Empire aren't Galay threatening issues. They're conquers, not galaxy-wide threats. Abeloth was the embodiment of chaos, and was defeated by light and dark side users teaming up. Naga Sadow, Exar Kun, Darth Krayt, and Darth Revan, etc., wanted Empires, they didn't threaten the existence of the Galaxy as a whole like Valkorian, the Dread Masters, and Abeloth. Revan was defeated by Jedi and Sith, Republic and Empire teaming up, as were the Dread Masters and Abeloth.

[adormitul]

The Father could hold both sides, it doesn't mean light and darkness doesn't exist.

 

Really? Let's see the major threats:

 

Naga Sadow-Dark Side Sith

Exar Kun-Dark Side Sith

Darth Revan-Dark Side Sith

Sith Triumvirate-Dark Side Sith

In SWTOR:

The Dread Masters-Dark Side Sith

Revan-So called Grey, worse than a lot of Dark Siders

Vitiate-Dark Side, Sith, regardless what did he claim himself to be

 

 

Bane-Dark Side Sith

Palpatine-Dark Side Sith

Yuuzhan Vong-Mostly not Force users

Abeloth-Dark Side

Darth Krayt-Dark Side Sith

 

Many Sith doesn't want to eliminate the Jedi because of their philosophy or light side, it's mostly because the Jedi are blocking their way to achieve power and dominance.

 

Do you think Abeloth is dark side? She is a abomination that uses the force at a level no dark side user ever will or light side. There is a reason it took the strongest light side user in the galaxy and the strongest dark side user in the galaxy to defeat her. She is the embodiment of both sides of the force.

[DeltaBos]

Do you think Abeloth is dark side? She is a abomination that uses the force at a level no dark side user ever will or light side. There is a reason it took the strongest light side user in the galaxy and the strongest dark side user in the galaxy to defeat her. She is the embodiment of both sides of the force.

 

Actually Abeloth was the embodiment of chaos, while the Father was the embodiment of harmony. These beings exist for the purpose of cancelling each other out.

[Slowpokeking]

Okay leaders of the Sith Empire aren't Galay threatening issues. They're conquers, not galaxy-wide threats. Abeloth was the embodiment of chaos, and was defeated by light and dark side users teaming up. Naga Sadow, Exar Kun, Darth Krayt, and Darth Revan, etc., wanted Empires, they didn't threaten the existence of the Galaxy as a whole like Valkorian, the Dread Masters, and Abeloth. Revan was defeated by Jedi and Sith, Republic and Empire teaming up, as were the Dread Masters and Abeloth.

 

Wut? They want to conquer the galaxy with bloody war and force it to live under their iron fist. How is it not Galaxy threatening issue?

 

Abeloth is dark side herself.

[Slowpokeking]

Do you think Abeloth is dark side? She is a abomination that uses the force at a level no dark side user ever will or light side. There is a reason it took the strongest light side user in the galaxy and the strongest dark side user in the galaxy to defeat her. She is the embodiment of both sides of the force.

 

It only means she is a better user of the Dark Side, better than mortal Dark Siders.

[DeltaBos]

Wut? They want to conquer the galaxy with bloody war and force it to live under their iron fist. How is it not Galaxy threatening issue?

 

Abeloth is dark side herself.

 

They wanted to conquer the galaxy, while Vititate wanted to end all life in the galaxy to fuel his own immortality, the Dread Masters went nuts and wanted to just kill everything, and Abeloth was a whole other mess. Wanted to rule the galaxy and wanted to just end everything are two COMPLETELY separate issues. Also, The Son was the embodiment of the Dark Side, not Abeloth, Abeloth was the embodiment of chaos.

[Slowpokeking]

They wanted to conquer the galaxy, while Vititate wanted to end all life in the galaxy to fuel his own immortality, the Dread Masters went nuts and wanted to just kill everything, and Abeloth was a whole other mess. Wanted to rule the galaxy and wanted to just end everything are two COMPLETELY separate issues. Also, The Son was the embodiment of the Dark Side, not Abeloth, Abeloth was the embodiment of chaos.

 

How is bloody conquest and tyrannical reign not a threat to the whole galaxy?

 

No, the Dread Masters wanted an Empire before Styrak's death, everyone dead=no fear would be known.

 

Abeloth is Dark Side as well, just to a higher level.

[DeltaBos]

How is bloody conquest and tyrannical reign not a threat to the whole galaxy?

 

No, the Dread Masters wanted an Empire before Styrak's death, everyone dead=no fear would be known.

 

Abeloth is Dark Side as well, just to a higher level.

 

Conquering the galaxy, everyone is under a ruler, whoever is the head of the Sith Empire, that's bad, I get it. Ending all life in the galaxy, no one is there, everyone is dead, two totally different things. And when the dread master's went nuts, they flat out said, they wanted to die and take the galaxy with them. Being a power-hungry sith lord and wanting to rule the galaxy is bad, but wanting to just kill everything is un-sith like, there's nothing left to rule.

 

And while Abeloth may have used the dark side, she did not want sith thing, she brought chaos. She uses the dark side of the force but she embodies chaos.

Edited April 11, 2016 by DeltaBos

[Slowpokeking]

Conquering the galaxy, everyone is under a ruler, whoever is the head of the Sith Empire, that's bad, I get it. Ending all life in the galaxy, no one is there, everyone is dead, two totally different things. And when the dread master's went nuts, they flat out said, they wanted to die and take the galaxy with them. Being a power-hungry sith lord and wanting to rule the galaxy is bad, but wanting to just kill everything is un-sith like, there's nothing left to rule.

 

And while Abeloth may have used the dark side, she did not want sith thing, she brought chaos. She uses the dark side of the force but she embodies chaos.

 

But both are threats to the galaxy and its people. The Sith Lords aren't going to be justified because they were better than some others.

 

Sith does not equal dark side, they are a group of dark siders with their unique philosophy.