Marr and Satele

[DarthThuzad]

Anyone else get the feeling that Marr and Satele... were not Marr and Satele and were maybe Valkorion illusions instead? Particularly the bit where Marr says "the Sith Code teaches us to break our chains. Now I realize anchoring your power to a throne is better." (paraphrased) has red flags going up for me. Edited April 7, 2016 by DarthThuzad

[PowerJediRanger]

Can't help but feel something similar since I was wondering why they are saying something similar to what the Emperor is saying. Also I don't mind getting stronger, but taking the throne is another story.

[Codedrago]

Satele in this chapter is referred to by the code as ''Satele Shan Impersonator

Edited April 7, 2016 by Codedrago

[Slowpokeking]

I just hate their "Jedi and Sith are no match for the Zakuul knight, find a new way" garbage.

[Solodrow]

Yeah, I was very skeptical going through those scenes. While a lot of what they said makes some sense, I kept getting the feeling it was Valkorian speaking to us through them.

[ganondorq]

i think marr and satele were duped about the force by him.

 

he's weaving the force around them, and they think this is how it's supposed to be.

[Lazproperty]

When Marr said him refusing to kneel was a mistake I found that highly suspicious too.

[JennyFlynn]

Yeah some things felt questionable. I don't think the Satele my JK and JC have always worked with would even for a moment consider leaving us for death as she pretty much says when you first meet her at the campfire. Everything they pushed for, claiming the throne etc. and expanding our power is the stuff Valkorion has been hammering on about from the get go, very convenient for him and if we're unwilling to listen to him directly, perhaps he thinks we'd be more willing to listen to our former masters/leaders aka Marr and Satele. Maybe it's an illusion he cast on us as, before he departs, he does some purple smoke cloud thing to us and saying he'll leave us with that and then he disappears so perhaps he did something to our minds. It's interesting for sure though.

[DarthThuzad]

Yeah some things felt questionable. I don't think the Satele my JK and JC have always worked with would even for a moment consider leaving us for death as she pretty much says when you first meet her at the campfire. Everything they pushed for, claiming the throne etc. and expanding our power is the stuff Valkorion has been hammering on about from the get go, very convenient for him and if we're unwilling to listen to him directly, perhaps he thinks we'd be more willing to listen to our former masters/leaders aka Marr and Satele. Maybe it's an illusion he cast on us as, before he departs, he does some purple smoke cloud thing to us and saying he'll leave us with that and then he disappears so perhaps he did something to our minds. It's interesting for sure though.

When my sorc tried to murder Satele in cold blood at the end, she immediately vanished, sort of like how Valkorion would do. Her lines around then seemed pretty ominous. Thought that may have been worth bringing up.

Edited April 7, 2016 by DarthThuzad

[BlueShiftRecall]

If we picked the [kill Satele] option we get a letter from Lana saying that Satele tried to contact Theron to tell him we tried to kill her, would that be something that if it was all Valkorion's illusion he would bother to do? Could he create a letter and send it in his current state? It would have to serve some type of purpose, maybe it underlines a point that we can't trust Theron and Valkorion wants him to leave us Edited April 7, 2016 by BlueShiftRecall

[casirabit]

While I agree something is off, regarding Satele she may have witnessed quite a few jedi die during the war and even though people say that jedi don't have emotions (which is false) it could be that those deaths are weighing on her and she feels responsible and that could be the reason for her change.

 

As far as Marr, he is a sith and even though a better one than most their goals are mostly power so that is normally a trait of the sith wanting more power.

[Axcalion]

Satele in this chapter is referred to by the code as ''Satele Shan Impersonator

 

As is Darth Marr ("Darth Marr Impersonator"), hmm, perhaps this was all a set-up by Valkorion.

 

[GabbyMe]

Something did feel off to me about both them. I realize they both have been through a lot... especially Marr But something still didn't sit right with me. Like how they were parroting Valkorian, who I'm already suspicious of anyway.

 

I'm still pretty convinced he wants us to over throw Arcann (duh), and then have us take the throne (which everyone seems to mention in this chapter), so he can then possess us.

 

Yeah, I want nothing to do with that. Even if he doesn't possess us or something.... I don't want my character becoming emperor or empress of anything.

[Slowpokeking]

While I agree something is off, regarding Satele she may have witnessed quite a few jedi die during the war and even though people say that jedi don't have emotions (which is false) it could be that those deaths are weighing on her and she feels responsible and that could be the reason for her change.

 

As far as Marr, he is a sith and even though a better one than most their goals are mostly power so that is normally a trait of the sith wanting more power.

 

Do we see Yoda give up on the Jedi way? No.

[casirabit]

Do we see Yoda give up on the Jedi way? No.

 

Is every Jedi like Yoda? No.

[Slowpokeking]

Is every Jedi like Yoda? No.

 

But other Jedi didn't give up either during similar situation, like Nomi and others after the supernova, the Jedi during the purge in KOTOR2. Why would the Grand Master think the Jedi way is wrong, when they were able to make through so many hopeless moments? The Eternal Empire was strong on its fleet, not the Force.

[JennyFlynn]

But other Jedi didn't give up either during similar situation, like Nomi and others after the supernova, the Jedi during the purge in KOTOR2. Why would the Grand Master think the Jedi way is wrong, when they were able to make through so many hopeless moments? The Eternal Empire was strong on its fleet, not the Force.

 

Satele is only human though, it's not surprising she might have a 'low point' in her life after all she's seen and been through. Not every Jedi is flawless and perfect. You say Yoda, I say Anakin. Look at his outburst as a result of his mother's death. It happens.

 

Now can you please stop sticking your stubborn head in every single thread preaching all this crap about Jedi perfection and the Eternal Empire only being strong due to their fleet and blah blah blah. You harp at every single person who doesn't see things your way and nitpick at any comment you can find to start another "there's only light and dark side, the Eternal Empire sucks, Arcann is a joke, the Knights of Zakuul are weak, that's not how this/that/whatever is supposed to be that's not how Lucas wrote his stories!" tirade. It's tiresome, really. Find a new tune or button it. You're really close to becoming the first person ever to reach my ignore list and that's honestly saying something.

[Slowpokeking]

Satele is only human though, it's not surprising she might have a 'low point' in her life after all she's seen and been through. Not every Jedi is flawless and perfect. You say Yoda, I say Anakin. Look at his outburst as a result of his mother's death. It happens.

 

Now can you please stop sticking your stubborn head in every single thread preaching all this crap about Jedi perfection and the Eternal Empire only being strong due to their fleet and blah blah blah. You harp at every single person who doesn't see things your way and nitpick at any comment you can find to start another "there's only light and dark side, the Eternal Empire sucks, Arcann is a joke, the Knights of Zakuul are weak, that's not how this/that/whatever is supposed to be that's not how Lucas wrote his stories!" tirade. It's tiresome, really. Find a new tune or button it. You're really close to becoming the first person ever to reach my ignore list and that's honestly saying something.

Don't get me wrong, I don't like the Jedi because of their obvious flaws. Satele Shan is also a boring character to me, she got potential but didn't get developed like Malgus did. To me, if someone couldn't keep their faith due to strong enemies, it makes them a lot weaker.

 

But the difference is, while I don't like them and overall, the SWTOR Jedi characters weren't developed as well as the Sith, as a whole group they are still quite fine. Their flaw made them more interesting, just like a character needs flaw. As for the Zakuul knights, we don't see their belief being better, the Scions are morons to bet purely on fate, the knights were dumb to serve someone like Arcann, who would order half of them to die for one failure. Arcann acts like a savage child. Compare to many other SW villains, I don't see they got the power or "better faith" to let the Jedi Grandmaster question the Jedi way itself. Many other great Sith, who was more powerful on strength and characterization didn't make the Jedi to change. Marr suffered from the same problem, I think it was very off character to let him change like this. This is what made me dislike the current direction of the story and the Zakuul Empire. They don't have convincing buildup or characterization, but at the same time, the developers were trying so hard to let us believe "Republic and Empire are weak and bad, we should rule the galaxy with the Eternal Empire" and "Jedi and Sith are bad, Arcann's way is awesome". Do you see it? I don't want to be rude or let you feel annoying, just giving out my point.

Edited April 8, 2016 by Slowpokeking

[Slowpokeking]

To be fair, Yoda did want to change in the end of EP III with the Force Ghost of Qui Gon Jinn's help, he also admitted many problems of the old Jedi Order. But before that, we were able to see how stubborn the old Jedi were, how did they get isolated in the politics and couldn't really help Anakin to get to the right track. We also saw how manipulative and charming Palpatine was, how did he seduce Anakin to his side and turned the Republic into the Empire.

 

The PT got many problems but it showed the problem of the Jedi well and gave us a magnificent Palpatine. We wouldn't be surprised that the Jedi have lost and they need to change their way to fight the Sith, this also was shown in OT, where Luke was able to believe in love but not going too far like his father did.

 

I think that was what the Zakuul Empire is missing. If the developers want to show how awesome it is, they really need to spend a lot more work on the characters and the build up. If we want to use SWTOR example, then it's Malgus' betrayal, it was wrong to do, but at least we saw many problems inside the Empire, the power struggle between the Sith, the racism and the Emperor being absent through all 4 class stories.

 

I'm gonna stop here, I didn't know that I made you feel bad, I should have picked a better way to express my ideas, maybe that's because my favorite team had lost yesterday, again, sorry about it.

Edited April 8, 2016 by Slowpokeking

[bluehufsa]

I just hate their "Jedi and Sith are no match for the Zakuul knight, find a new way" garbage.

 

Maybe the Mandos are a match for the Zakuul Knights then? Cannot dismiss this either..

[YaanaOhtar]

Don't get me wrong, I don't like the Jedi because of their obvious flaws. Satele Shan is also a boring character to me, she got potential but didn't get developed like Malgus did. To me, if someone couldn't keep their faith due to strong enemies, it makes them a lot weaker.

 

But the difference is, while I don't like them and overall, the SWTOR Jedi characters weren't developed as well as the Sith, as a whole group they are still quite fine. Their flaw made them more interesting, just like a character needs flaw. As for the Zakuul knights, we don't see their belief being better, the Scions are morons to bet purely on fate, the knights were dumb to serve someone like Arcann, who would order half of them to die for one failure. Arcann acts like a savage child. Compare to many other SW villains, I don't see they got the power or "better faith" to let the Jedi Grandmaster question the Jedi way itself. Many other great Sith, who was more powerful on strength and characterization didn't make the Jedi to change. Marr suffered from the same problem, I think it was very off character to let him change like this. This is what made me dislike the current direction of the story and the Zakuul Empire. They don't have convincing buildup or characterization, but at the same time, the developers were trying so hard to let us believe "Republic and Empire are weak and bad, we should rule the galaxy with the Eternal Empire" and "Jedi and Sith are bad, Arcann's way is awesome". Do you see it? I don't want to be rude or let you feel annoying, just giving out my point.

 

Well I think you misunderstood the story. They did not say Arcann's way is awesome or there is no dark or light side of the force. Marr stated that he was wrong to reject the Jedi way : There is no dead there is only the Force. And i think they only said their way of dong things were wrong. The Sith is selfish while the Jedi is selfless. While the Zakuul is conviction which make it is hard to break them. Since Jedi and Sith are counter parts, a Jedi can redeem a Sith and a Sith can corrupt a Jedi, but they can't do much against Arcann who convicted himself to be right or the Knights who completely believe in the cause.

 

However i do see a dangerous statement where Marr said : The force is not an ally, servant nor a compensated .

[LordGarmaZabi]

But other Jedi didn't give up either during similar situation, like Nomi and others after the supernova, the Jedi during the purge in KOTOR2. Why would the Grand Master think the Jedi way is wrong, when they were able to make through so many hopeless moments? The Eternal Empire was strong on its fleet, not the Force.

 

Disagree, while the Eternal Fleet was the biggest instrument in Zakuul's dominance of the galaxy, I don't believe we have seen anyone even come close to matching Vaylin, Valkarion, or Arcann. They seem almost as demi gods before the current cast of Jedi and Sith in the galaxy. I can understand the sheer power of the Zakuulian empire, both in military might, and in the Force, driving someone to the breaking point, it's happened before, just look to Darth Krayt for an example.

[Deshiel]

Well i don't know about you guys.

 

Neither Marr or Satele converted. They adopted and mixed the jedi & sith philosophy while still retaining most of thier former beliefs. It's the same thing going on with your jedi and sith alliance forces under Sana Rae. Your forces are combining the teachings and so is Satele & Marr and they are trying to make you do the same thing.

[JediAkemi]

I wouldn't be at all surprised if Marr's ghost was really Valkorian messing with Satele.

Time will tell.

[Slowpokeking]

Well I think you misunderstood the story. They did not say Arcann's way is awesome or there is no dark or light side of the force. Marr stated that he was wrong to reject the Jedi way : There is no dead there is only the Force. And i think they only said their way of dong things were wrong. The Sith is selfish while the Jedi is selfless. While the Zakuul is conviction which make it is hard to break them. Since Jedi and Sith are counter parts, a Jedi can redeem a Sith and a Sith can corrupt a Jedi, but they can't do much against Arcann who convicted himself to be right or the Knights who completely believe in the cause.

 

However i do see a dangerous statement where Marr said : The force is not an ally, servant nor a compensated .

The Zakuul are stubborn, I don't see how they are superior. Their stubbornness is their weakness as well. You don't need to break him, just defeat him.

Edited April 8, 2016 by Slowpokeking