Oricon quest chain, what does it lead to?

[Unperson]

I mean why have Oricon at all if the solo part of the story just comes to an abrupt end, it would have been better and possibly preferable if even Oricon itself was gated behind the prior operations and that there was nothing in the whole DM arc that could be accomplished solo and not call it chapter 5 either.

 

Because limited resources. And because it's an MMO and the metaplot advances even if you, personally, didn't advance it. Had they just released a string of thematically-linked ops and zippo for solo players, the outrage would be even worse. You may say that you wouldn't care if only players who had done KP, EC, TfB, S&V had access to Oricon, but I'm guessing you are in the minority on this. There is no reason why you shouldn't be allowed on Oricon unless you haven't beaten the ops, really. You can still avoid Oricon altogether if it bothers you so much, and go straight to SoR without any consequences.

 

 

"Just have a video" is NOT extending the logic of having two different game modes for solo and group when the storyline that's been introduced as solo missions (Oricon, dread seeds, Shroud, etc) and then currently wrap up in H4 or Ops.

 

If a storyline is going to end up gated in groupland, then it needs to start out gated in groupland so that it's quite clear to those of us for whom group content is simply more of a tedious chore than it's worth that we need to look elsewhere.

 

Actually the arc of the Dread Masters causing trouble is first introduced in Karagga's Palace, a group instance. Back when they are introduced on Belsavis, they are still loyal imperial subjects. So yeah, the storyline does in fact start in groupland, and up until Oricon, it develops only through group content.

 

The Shroud thing, we agree on, though. No point making it end in a H4.

[Max_Killjoy]

Which comes first chronologically, Section X or KP?

 

Because the Dread Masters go sideways in Section X, which other than the H4 AC at the time, was all Solo content.

[DarthDymond]

I don't really begrudge them for making a few attempts to entice players to try out group content - they did it with Ilum's story arc culminating in two Flashpoints years before Oricon led into DF/DP. There's something to be said for having a game nudge players outside their comfort zone, especially if the devs think that getting more people to try out a type of content will improve their retention.

 

(As nice as it would be to think that there is no need for any carrots or sticks... well, I think decades of game design, informed by behavioral psychology, has come to a different, and probably more accurate, conclusion.)

 

But, on balance, I think that effort just didn't work in this case, and their approach to Yavin / ToS is better. Have the group content as an option, either with solo modes available like the Ilum FPs now have, or with separate solo-able alternatives like the Yavin Dailies vs ToS.

 

That being said, while I really like the concept behind the solo resolution to Yavin, I think the execution left a lot to be desired. They really need to up their game when it comes to making those climactic fights interesting and engaging if that's the route they are going to continue going (which I personally think it should be).

Edited March 29, 2016 by DarthDymond

[DarthDymond]

Which comes first chronologically, Section X or KP?

 

Because the Dread Masters go sideways in Section X, which other than the H4 AC at the time, was all Solo content.

KP, Denova (to avoid "EC" confusion), and TfB all come before Sec X

 

Here's a list of all the post-Class Story storylines, based on the chronological order that max-level content was released (which seems to track the in-universe progression). The game does not allow you to enter an Operation without an Ops Group formed, but you can make an Ops Group with as few as two players and Eternity Vault and Karagga's Palace can probably be cleared with two level 60s at this point:

 

The Cold War and the Start of the Second Great Galactic War

• Class & Planetary Quests up through Corellia and the end of your Class Story plus Flashpoints as they become available (all Flashpoints have one-time quests that can be picked up on Fleet as soon as you hit the level for that Flashpoint and most of these quests can also be picked up on the level-appropriate planets)

 

Ilum and the New Empire

• Ilum Planetary Quests (starts with quest you should receive automatically once you finish your Class Story)
  
• Battle of Ilum Flashpoint (continuing the Ilum quest line) [now available in solo-mode]
  
• The False Emperor Flashpoint (concluding the Ilum quest line) [now available in solo-mode]

 

The Return of the Infernal One

• Eternity Vault Operation (one-time quest picked up on Fleet)

 

Prelude to the Hutt Cartel Conflict

• Karagga's Palace Operation (one-time quest picked up on Fleet)[ultimately hints at The Dread War arc]

 

The Rakghoul Plague Outbreak

• Kaon Under Siege Flashpoint (one-time quest picked up on Fleet)
  
• The Lost Island Flashpoint (concluding the one-time quest that started with Kaon)

 

The Black Hole Crisis

• Black Hole Daily Area (one-time quest picked up on Fleet starts the progression)

 

The Dread War Begins

• Explosive Conflict Operation (one-time quest picked up on Fleet)
  
• Terror From Beyond Operation (one-time quest picked up on Fleet) [because this Operation has been adjusted to level 55 it's worth noting that nothing is glaringly out of order if you do this after Makeb, but it should be done before Scum and Villainy]
  
• Section X Daily Area (one-time quest picked up on Fleet starts the progression)
  
• HK-51 Quest Line (starts with quest picked up in Section X)

 

Conflict with the Hutt Cartel

• Scum and Villainy Operation (one-time quest picked up on Fleet) [because it is a level 55 operation, this is something you'll probably end up running after Makeb. Other than a single line of dialogue on the Republic one-time quest (response to "But their leader is dead!" dialogue option), nothing is badly out of place if you do this content after Makeb. This Operation also ties in to The Dread War storyline and should definitely be run if you want to experience that full story.]
  
• Makeb Planetary Quest Line (starts with quest picked up on your ship's holo-terminal)
  
• Shroud (Macrobinoculars) and Seeds of Rage (Seeker Droid) Quest Lines (each starts with a quest that can either be picked up on Makeb at around the halfway point of the planetary quest line, or on the Fleet once you hit level 52)[seeds of Rage questline also ties in to The Dread War storyline, should definitely be run if you want to experience that full story]

 

The Fall of Czerka

• CZ-198 Daily Area (one-time quest picked up on Fleet starts the progression)
  
• Czerka Corporate Labs Flashpoint (continuing the CZ-198 one-time quest)
  
• Czerka Core Meltdown Flashpoint (concluding the CZ-198 one-time quest)

 

The Dread War Ends

• Oricon Planetary Quest Chain (starts with quest that can be picked up either on Fleet or CZ-198)
  
• Dread Fortress Operation (continuing the Oricon quest line)
  
• Dread Palace Operation (concluding the Oricon quest line)

 

Forged Alliances

• Assault on Tython and Korriban Incursion Flashpoints (order is determined based on your faction, one-time quest picked up on fleet)
  
• Depths of Manaan Flashpoint (quest to continue the progression picked up on fleet from same droid who gave part I)
  
• Rakata Prime Flashpoint (quest to continure the progression picked up on fleet from same droid who gave parts I and II)
  

 

Shadow of Revan

• Rishi Planetary Quest Line (starts with quest picked up from Forged Alliances Droid on Fleet or from terminal on your Ship)
  
• Blood Hunt Flashpoint (Rishi Quest Line directs you to it)
  
• Battle of Rishi Flashpoint (Rishi Quest Line directs you to it)
  
• Yavin IV Planetary Quest Line and Daily Area
  
• Temple of Sacrifice Operation (one of two options for how to finish the Yavin IV Quest Line)
  
• Ravagers Operation (one-time quest outside the Operation entrance on Rishi) [separate from main quest line with stand-alone plot, can be done anytime after you hit 60 and have been to Rishi]
  

 

Rise of the Emperor

• Ziost Planetary Quest Line (starts with quest picked up on fleet)
  
• Ziost Daily Area (planetary quest line leads into it)
  

 

Knights of the Fallen Empire

• On-Going Quest Line [Chapters 1-11 currently available] (starts with quest picked up on your ship)
  
• Star Fortress Flashpoints (on-going quest line leads into them)
  

 

Edited March 29, 2016 by DarthDymond

[Jedi_riches]

Because limited resources. And because it's an MMO and the metaplot advances even if you, personally, didn't advance it. Had they just released a string of thematically-linked ops and zippo for solo players, the outrage would be even worse. You may say that you wouldn't care if only players who had done KP, EC, TfB, S&V had access to Oricon, but I'm guessing you are in the minority on this. There is no reason why you shouldn't be allowed on Oricon unless you haven't beaten the ops, really. You can still avoid Oricon altogether if it bothers you so much, and go straight to SoR without any consequences.

 

 

Actually the arc of the Dread Masters causing trouble is first introduced in Karagga's Palace, a group instance. Back when they are introduced on Belsavis, they are still loyal imperial subjects. So yeah, the storyline does in fact start in groupland, and up until Oricon, it develops only through group content.

 

The Shroud thing, we agree on, though. No point making it end in a H4.

 

I could quite possibly have worked as a story based operation arc, tied into the SW lore but without the solo Oricon bit it would not exactly have been a chapter 5. I mean since it's called chapter 5 technically it should be done before SOR and in fact is a constant icon on my ships terminal as I know I cannot complete it, Bioware still consider it should be done since it is put on the mission terminal on your ship.

[Unperson]

No, I just wish I was able to end the Oricon story without defeating the Dread Masters, or that they had done a daily area that had nothing to do with the Dread Masters and the ending for the DM arc separately.

 

What? The whole point of Oricon is defeating the Dread Masters. But even if you don't want to do that: just go to SoR, canonically the Dread Masters are defeated whether your character has a hand in it or not.

 

At this point it's clear that nothing I say is going to convince you that not all content needs to be tailored to your tastes or preferences. But what I can do is offer to run you through DF and DP, no requirements beyond being willing to read at most 3 lines of explanations before each boss. No gear, no achievements, no previous experience. PM me at your leisure and we'll get it done. You might even have fun!

[Jedi_riches]

What? The whole point of Oricon is defeating the Dread Masters. But even if you don't want to do that: just go to SoR, canonically the Dread Masters are defeated whether your character has a hand in it or not.

 

Maybe use a cop-out that allows you to nuke them from orbit, let you sabotage something meaning you destroy the DM but you don't fight them directly.

[Seireeni]

What? The whole point of Oricon is defeating the Dread Masters. But even if you don't want to do that: just go to SoR, canonically the Dread Masters are defeated whether your character has a hand in it or not.

 

At this point it's clear that nothing I say is going to convince you that not all content needs to be tailored to your tastes or preferences. But what I can do is offer to run you through DF and DP, no requirements beyond being willing to read at most 3 lines of explanations before each boss. No gear, no achievements, no previous experience. PM me at your leisure and we'll get it done. You might even have fun!

 

As someone already pointed out, Oricon works out as a storyline all by itself. You save the people of your faction, hear that the Dread Masters are about to send ships to Coruscant/DK to cause chaos, you disable their ships and save the the rest of the galaxy. I don't think all content needs to be "tailored to my tastes", I'm just criticizing Bioware's decision to include a solo storyline in the middle of an ops storyline with no way to say "K, Dread Masters retreated to their palace, make sure they don't come out until someone has time to deal with it" and leave.

 

And if it wasn't for your "asking for a way to decline DP at the end of Oricon is demanding content to be tailored to your preferences"-attitude, I would love to do the ops with you. I loved pugging EV SM and KP SM pre 2.0 and loved pugging EC SM in 2.0 even more, but I can't find casual groups that still clear the content anymore. Everytime I try to find a group, it's either condecending l33t raiders, or - if I'm lucky - some ragtag bunch of misfits that can't kill anything and disband.

Edited March 29, 2016 by Seireeni

[Unperson]

A pity that you will only come out of your safe space to complain about non-issues on the forums. I'd wish you to have fun, but I get the feeling you'd find a way to feel miserable regardless...

 

Offer stands, btw.

[Ybini]

I enjoyed it and the gear I got from it. You may not though. I didn't care much for the pirate theme of Rishi, but some did. I'd start it, and if it doesn't suit you up front, then you can skip it.

[Seireeni]

A pity that you will only come out of your safe space to complain about non-issues on the forums. I'd wish you to have fun, but I get the feeling you'd find a way to feel miserable regardless...

 

Offer stands, btw.

 

I wish you well and hope you enjoy insulting people who disgaree with you in the future, too. Maybe one day when you're wondering why so few people do ops that Bioware no longers considers them any sort of priority, you will finally find a mirror.

[Max_Killjoy]

And those of us who know for a fact from experience that we find Operations to be an unfun tedious chore? And who aren't motivated by the gear grind and don't care whether we have some achievement?

 

Are you just going to blow us off as "not interested in fun" and "not interested in trying new things"? Or would that require you to come out of your conceptual "safe space" and consider that some people really just don't like what you like, instead of chalking it up to the personal "failings" that you imagine others have?

[Unperson]

I wish you well and hope you enjoy insulting people who disgaree with you in the future, too. Maybe one day when you're wondering why so few people do ops that Bioware no longers considers them any sort of priority, you will finally find a mirror.

 

If you find it insulting that not everything, everywhere will be to your taste, you're going to have a bad time, in general. Otherwise I haven't insulted you anywhere, but if you disagree, the report function will yield better results than self-victimization.

 

 

And those of us who know for a fact from experience that we find Operations to be an unfun tedious chore? And who aren't motivated by the gear grind and don't care whether we have some achievement?

 

Are you just going to blow us off as "not interested in fun" and "not interested in trying new things"? Or would that require you to come out of your conceptual "safe space" and consider that some people really just don't like what you like, instead of chalking it up to the personal "failings" that you imagine others have?

 

I'm fine with people having different tastes than mine, if only because my own tastes have changed over the years. Your tastes are none of my business until that point where you insist that the game is remade to suit them, over my own preferences. Personally, I hate the mind-numbingly repetitive gameplay and one-size-fits-all writing in KotFE, but I understand that others may enjoy it, so you won't see me demanding that they change the chapters and make separate-yet-interchangeable ops out of them. Because that's not how the content was originally designed, and the investment required to make it so is probably not warranted, so I probably just won't bother with it.

 

You shouldn't have to do ops, and nobody is telling you to, if you don't want to. But then there is very little basis to complain that you don't get to experience the story that is built around those ops.

[Max_Killjoy]

If you find it insulting that not everything, everywhere will be to your taste, you're going to have a bad time, in general. Otherwise I haven't insulted you anywhere, but if you disagree, the report function will yield better results than self-victimization..

 

If you don't see how telling people to "come out of their safe space", and implying personal fault because they aren't doing the content you enjoy, can come across as very insulting...

[Seireeni]

I'm fine with people having different tastes than mine, if only because my own tastes have changed over the years. Your tastes are none of my business until that point where you insist that the game is remade to suit them, over my own preferences.

 

Yes, because the ability to say "no thanks" to DF at the end of Oricon storyline and/or not making more solo storylines in the middle of an ops storyline would most definitely prevent you from enjoying from said storylines.

[Unperson]

If you don't see how telling people to "come out of their safe space", and implying personal fault because they aren't doing the content you enjoy, can come across as very insulting...

 

No personal fault implied whatsoever. The safe space comment was in response to a remark accusing me of "attitude" when all I'm doing is pointing out a fact of life: not everything will be, nor has to be, tailored to the tastes of a particular individual. After dealing with a ton of goalpost shifting, I made a sincere offer to take the player through content without having to deal with the issues they had previously stated that prevented them from enjoying these particular ops, namely "elitism" and/or complete inability of pugs to down SM bosses, and a need to read up on encounters before entering the instance. Nothing of which I find particularly distressing, but hey, different strokes and all.

 

For my trouble, I get accused of "attitude". If you don't see how this can lead anyone to believe that the user in question will do their utmost to continue to find excuses to be argumentative and portray themselves as victims of imagined injustice and persecution...

 

Regardless, we're spiraling down to "he-said-she-said", and this is usually my cue to bail. Ta-ta!

[Unperson]

Yes, because the ability to say "no thanks" to DF at the end of Oricon storyline and/or not making more solo storylines in the middle of an ops storyline would most definitely prevent you from enjoying from said storylines.

 

That's the goalpost shifting I'm talking about. You'd be happy with the ability to turn down a mission now, but before what was being asked was a SOLO version of ops, so people who find ops unpalatable can experience the story.

 

What you are asking for is already in the game, btw. You can just abandon the quest, where [Refuse Mission] isn't available, without penalty.

[branmakmuffin]

Everytime I try to find a group, it's either condecending l33t raiders, or - if I'm lucky - some ragtag bunch of misfits that can't kill anything and disband.

This pretty much describes my minimal experience with raiding, in this and other games.

[Seireeni]

That's the goalpost shifting I'm talking about. You'd be happy with the ability to turn down a mission now, but before what was being asked was a SOLO version of ops, so people who find ops unpalatable can experience the story.

 

What you are asking for is already in the game, btw. You can just abandon the quest, where [Refuse Mission] isn't available, without penalty.

 

This is not goalposting, this is different people having different opinions. I had never wished for solo mode ops, someone else sharing some of my opinions did. And since your "sincere" offering still included comments such as

 

At this point it's clear that nothing I say is going to convince you that not all content needs to be tailored to your tastes or preferences.

I doubt it was sincere. Or if it was, I doubt you would be able to refraing from insulting me during two whole ops runs.

[Unperson]

I had never wished for solo mode ops, someone else sharing some of my opinions did.

 

Is that so? Not exactly what I gathered from this:

 

However, that's beside the point. Even if I had 7 friends playing SWTOR, their characters would still be random people to my story. It's like you were finally approaching the main villain of your class story...and then some random jedi knight that have never appeared in the story storms in and kills the villain before you have a chance to say a word. If my characters need help to defeat Arcann, I'd rather have all these people I've gathered - Lana, Theron, Koth, Kaliyo, SCORPIO, Aric, you know - helping me. And who is there to help you in Revan solo fight? Satele. Theron. Lana. Darth frigging Marr.

 

They don't do that much damage during the fight, but lore-wise Marr and Satele are at least equal in their power, even to the jedi and sith player characters. I didn't wreck Revan all by myself, I did it with allies that have helped me throughout the whole expansion. I think it's much better climax than having 7 random characters that have never appeared in the story suddenly showing up because I can't defeat the main villain by myself.

 

 

And since your "sincere" offering still included comments such as

At this point it's clear that nothing I say is going to convince you that not all content needs to be tailored to your tastes or preferences.

 

I doubt it was sincere. Or if it was, I doubt you would be able to refraing from insulting me during two whole ops runs.

 

What exactly is insincere about that? Would you rather I made smarmy assurances that you're right and BW should look to accomodate your preferences to a T?

 

And no, I don't insult people in raids, unless you find explanations of mechanics and advice on class abilities after a possible wipe "insulting". The question is, do you?

Edited March 29, 2016 by Unperson

[Max_Killjoy]

I think I'm the one who said that story content, etc, shouldn't be locked behind the Operations gate...

[Seireeni]

Is that so? Not exactly what I gathered from this:

 

What exactly is insincere about that? Would you rather I made smarmy assurances that you're right and BW should look to accomodate your preferences to a T?

 

And no, I don't insult people in raids, unless you find explanations of mechanics and advice on class abilities after a possible wipe "insulting". The question is, do you?

 

I'm sorry if me and that one other guy going offtopic caused a misunderstanding, but that conversation was about the possibility of Arcann being an operation boss and if it would make more sense/be better to have him as one vs. having him as solo fight. I believe that the main villain of an expansion's solo storyline should be defeatable solo, and I also think it makes more sense in this case since Lana has told that at least SI is MIA or KIA if you're not playing as such. If you think that Arcann should be an ops boss only and all the players wishing to complete KotFE solo should just suck it up, then we do have to agree to disagree.

 

And no, of course I don't find advice insulting. No normal human being does, unless it's delivered with insults and curse words.

[IanArgent]

Endsing KotFE with an op doesn't make the same kind of sense as ending previous arcs with an Op. The Outlander is singular; prior to KotFE there was the notion that the other class characters existed in the galaxy, doing their thing. It's a bit of a tenuous conclusion for SoR, but it's at least theoretically possible. As of KotFE, all of the former class companions have explicitly lost their old bosses, they basically disappeared and have not been active in the galaxy since the Eternal Empire won the war.

[MDChen]

I can never understand the toxic attitude displayed by some players In this thread.

 

SoR approach should be the way to go and should be what make everyone happy if the players genuine love this game. The raiders still continue to get their urber Ops and l33t gears grind in SoR while the majority then get to enjoy their story progression and able to experience the conclusion to the Raven arc via a solo-able option. I don't see the moral ground of these raiders being bitter about how MAJORITY of the player base are able to enjoy the same story as they did especially when people are only asking for an alternative, not to completely replace their beloved urber ops and l33t gears..

 

Not to mention I had run Ops in SWTOR before and also involved in raiding in countless other MMOS, I can assure that most of those who run ops\raids aren't truly interested in the story\lore or cut scene or whatsoever. And those few that I happen to know who really do these for the lore\story won't care if the contents are make available to other playstyle. For those who care less about the story\lore, their main focus are the boss fight and the loots that those bosses drop, they just want to feel special and entitled to thing that most other players are gated from.. That why the world would come crumbling down on them if those thing are offered an alternative route to other players to achieve, this would at least explain that if you don't play like I do pls sux it up toxic attitude that are shown here.

 

Maybe it is true that these toxic players are only the very small vocal minority but they are usually vocal enough to create a very bad self-centered image of raiders in general and such attitude only serve to alien the majority of the players away from their playstyle.

[IanArgent]

I can never understand the toxic attitude displayed by some players In this thread.

 

SoR approach should be the way to go and should be what make everyone happy if the players genuine love this game. The raiders still continue to get their urber Ops and l33t gears grind in SoR while the majority then get to enjoy their story progression and able to experience the conclusion to the Raven arc via a solo-able option.

 

Especially as they have "opened" other storyline-containing formerly-group content to solo players (Story-mode FP). I don't think they'll ever open up the old ops contents to solo, too much work. But arguing that Ops folks should have their own story content that solo players can't experience; because Ops should have their own private part of the story? C'mon.