Oricon quest chain, what does it lead to?

[VegasTheLost]

So much no, if kotfe was to finish with only a operation then that would be the end for me...

 

Don't worry, KotFE will end with a solo fight and there won't be a raid option.

[gabigool]

So much no, if kotfe was to finish with only a operation then that would be the end for me, there is nothing to say that everyone can't get what they want both a op's version and a solo version. To me this game is only about the story the journey is more important than the destination (ie endgame) I would play the 8 class stories over and over again before I set foot in another operation.

 

Before anyone else starts stating that this is a MMO, there are other group content outside of raiding that is not the only aspect of group content in this game, there are assorted flashpoints heroics that you can group with to complete if you so wish operations is not the only option for group content available, plus I like helping guildies with stuff and chatting with a regular group of people while levelling so yeah there is still options for me for group content outside of operations.

 

Ahhh I see. You're one of those people who still think this is supposed to be KOTOR3, and group players can't have story content.

 

Gotcha, thanks. So.... perhaps you ought to read the post I quoted and absorb it. Like I said.

[Seireeni]

Ahhh I see. You're one of those people who still think this is supposed to be KOTOR3, and group players can't have story content.

 

Gotcha, thanks. So.... perhaps you ought to read the post I quoted and absorb it. Like I said.

 

I have not even once seen anyone say that operations should not have any story in them, period. No one has a problem with the background story every warzone has. However, if during Alderaan's planetary story you suddenly got the mission "oh no, the enemy is attacking our turrets! Please complete Warzone 'Alderaan Civil War' to continue!", the forums would explode from complaints. Heck, I haven't even seen anyone complain about ToS. Operation alternative? Bring it on!

 

There are loads of people who play this for Star Wars or Kotor 3, and there's nothing the ops people or the pvp people can do about it. And I say this as a person who practically lives in lowbie pvp.

[gabigool]

I have not even once seen anyone say that operations should not have any story in them, period. No one has a problem with the background story every warzone has. However, if during Alderaan's planetary story you suddenly got the mission "oh no, the enemy is attacking our turrets! Please complete Warzone 'Alderaan Civil War' to continue!", the forums would explode from complaints. Heck, I haven't even seen anyone complain about ToS. Operation alternative? Bring it on!

 

There are loads of people who play this for Star Wars or Kotor 3, and there's nothing the ops people or the pvp people can do about it. And I say this as a person who practically lives in lowbie pvp.

 

Not quite sure how you can equate Oricon with Alderaan. The DM story arc is a group arc. There are some solo quests in there but the story had historically been centered around group content..Alderaan's planetary story is not.

 

You don't have to like everything in an MMO. You don't have to do everything in an MMO. You are not entitled to have all content provided in a format you prefer in an MMO.

 

I don't mind the content being optional. But I think with the limited amount of content we see, to gate future group content release behind the added creation time of something like the ToS solo-alternative is pathetic.

 

The DM story arc was brilliant IMO. I'm glad it wasn't diluted in quality in order to appease entitled brats who want everything handed to them.

 

I guess you were thinking you'd just go in there and mop up the Dread Masters with Blizz, huh?

[IanArgent]

The Dread Masters chain is kinda important to the metaplot; but it doesn't get tangled up in class stories. I, personally, would like the ability to put characters through the story elements solo, so that those characters can experience the "story" (a la SoR's end). But I don't confuse that "would like" with a need.

 

Something odd I just noticed, since I decided to give ops a try - the Oricon quest chain has you do DF before DP right now; which appears to be out-of-order as far as the story goes?

[Max_Killjoy]

EVERY story element that's locked behind the group gate should have a solo option or alternative.

 

If grouping is completely optional, and people won't group with you to do stuff, stop blaming the game, and go look in the mirror.

Edited March 29, 2016 by Max_Killjoy

[Unperson]

I have not even once seen anyone say that operations should not have any story in them, period.

 

That's essentially what Jedi_riches is calling for. He wants to experience all story, including that which was designed to have operations as an integral part, but will NOT do any ops, period. Therefore the only operations he will be happy with are those that have no story, so he can safely ignore them. The Dread Masters arc is tangential at best to the overall plot of the game, so you really aren't missing anything vital if you don't complete it.

 

It's great that people that wanted a single-player KotOR 3 play this game (I used to be one of them myself), but it's not so great that they want to come and make this game into KotOR 3 for everyone else.

[Max_Killjoy]

That's essentially what Jedi_riches is calling for. He wants to experience all story, including that which was designed to have operations as an integral part, but will NOT do any ops, period. Therefore the only operations he will be happy with are those that have no story, so he can safely ignore them. The Dread Masters arc is tangential at best to the overall plot of the game, so you really aren't missing anything vital if you don't complete it.

 

It's great that people that wanted a single-player KotOR 3 play this game (I used to be one of them myself), but it's not so great that they want to come and make this game into KotOR 3 for everyone else.

 

If there are both group and solo options... then it's not making the game into KotOR3 for everyone else... unless of course the worry that most players won't do group content if they have another option...

 

All content should be done for enjoyment, not because of a grind, or because of carrot/stick nonsense.

[IanArgent]

EVERY story element that's locked behind the group gate should have a solo option or alternative.

 

It says a lot that some players want to force other players to group with them just to finish out quest chains.

 

QFT, t least as of 4.0's New Design Philosophy of Solo Players Can Do All The Things. The problem for ops is that they'd have to significantly re-architect some of the mechanics, whereas for FPs they can add a GSI-bot, tune down the mob stats, and call it a Story Mode. I'm still a little annoyed they didn't regrade the Macrobinocs and Dread Seed chains for solo.

[VegasTheLost]

Something odd I just noticed, since I decided to give ops a try - the Oricon quest chain has you do DF before DP right now; which appears to be out-of-order as far as the story goes?

 

Nope. DF is before DP.

[Seireeni]

Not quite sure how you can equate Oricon with Alderaan. The DM story arc is a group arc. There are some solo quests in there but the story had historically been centered around group content..Alderaan's planetary story is not.

 

You don't have to like everything in an MMO. You don't have to do everything in an MMO. You are not entitled to have all content provided in a format you prefer in an MMO.

 

I don't mind the content being optional. But I think with the limited amount of content we see, to gate future group content release behind the added creation time of something like the ToS solo-alternative is pathetic.

 

The DM story arc was brilliant IMO. I'm glad it wasn't diluted in quality in order to appease entitled brats who want everything handed to them.

 

I guess you were thinking you'd just go in there and mop up the Dread Masters with Blizz, huh?

 

I was fine with the DM story arc before Oricon. You free them in Belsavis during a solo storyline, but at least I think that was a nice, self-sustained story that was ended at the end of Belsavis. I didn't even think of Dread Masters again until I reached Section X - again, mostly solo stuff, and all about dealing with the Dread masters' underlings. After that, came the operations that deal with Dread Masters - and they were dealt with solely through operations. And then came Oricon.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that when Oricon was a new and shiny thing, you picked it up from the fleet, not from the ship console. And at no point of the briefing did Darth Marr tell it was going to lead to an operation. I fully expected that this was going to be like Section X: you deal with Dread Masters' underlings and then there's some separate ops storyline to defeat the Dread Masters themselves. But no.

 

And if you think there will be an operation that ends a solo storyline of an expansion without a solo option, you're just deluding yourself. With DM you might actually have a point, since the arc to defeat DMs was mostly through ops before Oricon. With SoR and ToS, you don't have even that.

[Damask_Rose]

The DM arc and the Oricon arc are separate arcs until they intersect at the end. You can understand the Oricon arc just fine without having done any of the prior DM content. Tying the two together antagonized a lot of players which could have been avoided had they provided a soloabe conclusion to the solo arc and left the operations to tie up the DM arc.

 

How many ops players would be happy if a new operation finally gets released, but the final boss is the only one to drop 224 gear or tokens and to fight him you first had to go head to head in a pvp death match? I'm sure some would like that, and the pvpers would love it. Would you consider the raiders who don't want to pvp to finish the new operation entitled brats?

[Seireeni]

That's essentially what Jedi_riches is calling for. He wants to experience all story, including that which was designed to have operations as an integral part, but will NOT do any ops, period. Therefore the only operations he will be happy with are those that have no story, so he can safely ignore them. The Dread Masters arc is tangential at best to the overall plot of the game, so you really aren't missing anything vital if you don't complete it.

 

It's great that people that wanted a single-player KotOR 3 play this game (I used to be one of them myself), but it's not so great that they want to come and make this game into KotOR 3 for everyone else.

 

You can still have group and solo stuff in the game just dont mix the 2 in the same storyline most ops seem to be stand alone anyway and it's best to keep it that way or add a solo option like thay did with the end of SOR.

 

No, he's not. He just feels they shouldn't be in the same storyline. I don't see him complaining about KP, EC, TfB or SnV, even though those had an ongoing storyline that was dealt purely through ops. If Oricon was only offered to the people who completed the KP EC TfB SnV -chain, or if there was a way to end the solo story arc without defeating the Dread Masters, he quite possibly wouldn't have any problem with it. (I know I wouldn't.)

 

The DM arc and the Oricon arc are separate arcs until they intersect at the end. You can understand the Oricon arc just fine without having done any of the prior DM content. Tying the two together antagonized a lot of players which could have been avoided had they provided a soloabe conclusion to the solo arc and left the operations to tie up the DM arc.

 

QFT

Edited March 29, 2016 by Seireeni

[ImmortalLowlife]

So I see we're back to the solo vs group player forum battles.

 

Look....we all enjoy different aspects of the game. This game was even promoted with devs saying "swtor is like kotor 3-10..." So yea, there's a LOT of us who play swtor like a single player RPG. So many in fact the devs started making more content "solo friendly" after years of adding mainly group content.

 

Personally, I'm having more fun now than I have since launch. I don't play for challenges. I socialize more on the forums in a month than I have in game since launch (I haven't even reached social lvl 1). But where I used to delete characters after finishing Chapt 3 and start over, now I've got over 30 characters at or near max lvl. Every one played solo. And as long as BW continues to acknowledge the part of the player base who prefers solo content, I'll continue to happily pay a sub to play swtor.

[Majestic_Jazz]

But why should solo players be the only one who can have nice stories ? Raiders like operations with stories as well, why do you think the Dread Wars ops are the favourite of a lot of players ? PvPers like to have their warzone tied in the story as well and wouldn't be so happy if the new warzone was just some random guy telling them to beat themselves to death without any reason. And why would a story finishing in an op be a bad thing ? I mean it encourages players to try new things. The story was what appealed me to the game as well then I discovered there was way more than story because the game pointed me that way. If I didn't try new things, I would probably have left the game a while back and a lot of players would probably have done the same. Story should be a beginning, not an end. Story is here to teach you the basic of the game, to direct you to other content. It's only logical that the "next level" content is the step to finish story and in the case of an MMO, the next level is group content.

I understand that some people don't want to do ops for various reason, but the game should not be designed around people not willing to group in a game where social interaction and grouping is an important part.

 

If you're ok to pay a monthly subscription to play a solo game, that's fine by me. But I want my operation and my pvp to be tied in the story. And as I said, I would be trully disapointed if we kill Arcan in solo because it would be really anti-climatic (which is not a spoiler because we don't have to kill him yet and KotFE has been out for 6 month, you really should know who Arcan is by now)

 

I am not saying that Operations should not have stories. I only said that an Operation should not be the conclusion to a SOLO quest chain. I am all for deep and heavy stories in Operations, as long as they are self contained stories that is not a conclusion to a solo quest chain. Operations can tell stories that expand upon what we already experienced in solo quest chains, that is fine, sort of like the Eternity Vault Operation. It expanded upon the lore and understanding/history of Belsavis prison and had a nice little story to it....but it was not a conclusion to a solo quest chain. The story of Eternity Vault starts as an Ops and ends as an Ops.

 

------------

 

But one thing that you are either ignoring or simply downplaying is the FACT that SWTOR has attracted a lot of non-conventional MMO players. Like I said before, SWTOR isn't your fathers MMO simply because the demographics demands for it to be a bit solo friendly. Many people such as myself do not mind paying a subscription fee to enjoy SWTOR's single player stories because in fact, I do engage in Warzones from time to time and I do enjoy playing the GTN, both Warzones and GTN are multiplayer functions, not solo. So yeah, I AM enjoying the multiplayer aspect of SWTOR as well as the solo player aspect.

 

I am playing simply for the story. I just leveled an IA to 65 and I have yet to complete Ziost/KotFE with him. Once I am done, I will grind out for a few days/weeks so I can get up a lot of credits so that I can buy some cool gear for my next character...a Trooper. Once that is done, I will start a Trooper character and enjoy his story while I level him to 65. Then I will do it again with a Sith Inquisitor....then with a Jedi Guardian. By the time I get them all to 65, it would be near the end of the year (or early next year) and I would STILL have the complete KotFE expansion to explore with all 4 characters plus whatever new expansion Bioware releases which I am sure will again be a solo-friendly story heavy expansion.

 

Also, would love to do more Operations because they are long and require a lot of tactics and strategy. However, what turns me off is that it is not casual friendly. I am not the best player in the world but I am far from a noob. However, I have played in a few groups that were VERY elitist and all they care about is gear and other things and are not interested in developing "lesser skilled" players. A long time ago back in 2012 I was even kicked from a Flashpoints group AND an Operations group because I did not meet their elitist requirements. So for me, this is another reason why I do not want future solo quest chains to end in Operations, because I do not want to have to deal with being in groups where people are to all high and almighty to enjoy the experience with someone who is more of a casual player like myself.

 

And whether your like it or not, Bioware knows that solo players make up a large amount of their demographics given their past titles such as Mass Effect and KOTOR. They know that many players are just here for the story and not PvP or Operations. I mean, just look at KotFE! If solo players weren't a large enough demographic for them to be profitable with, why would they make a SOLO ONLY expansion?

[Unperson]

All content should be done for enjoyment, not because of a grind, or because of carrot/stick nonsense.

 

We agree on that. Which is why I'm not saying folks should be forced to run ops if they aren't up their alley. Problem is folks want to go through a part of the story that is integral to the ops, without doing the ops, demanding instead that all group content is redesigned to include a solo mode. I could extend this logic a bit more: I like SW stories, but I don't really like pressing buttons. Why can't we have a story mode that skips all that tedious walking around, killing trash and looting? You know, like a YT vid, but interactive?

 

I enjoy doing ops when they have no story to speak of (RAV), but I like it even more when they have a proper narrative build-up and conclusion. Contrary to popular opinion, the solo Revan fight isn't a substitute for ToS, and you'll be missing a bit of the story if you don't do that ops.

 

The concern isn't that if everything was designed like the Revan arc/ToS then nobody would run ops anymore, it's more that they are seemingly strapped for resources enough as it is. If they had unlimited money and manpower? By all means, have multiple modes. Otherwise, focus on either SP (no, I don't want Arcann to be an ops boss), or group modes.

[gabigool]

The DM arc and the Oricon arc are separate arcs until they intersect at the end. You can understand the Oricon arc just fine without having done any of the prior DM content. Tying the two together antagonized a lot of players which could have been avoided had they provided a soloabe conclusion to the solo arc and left the operations to tie up the DM arc.

 

Errr.... What's the part of the Oricon arc that is not related to the DM?

 

How many ops players would be happy if a new operation finally gets released, but the final boss is the only one to drop 224 gear or tokens and to fight him you first had to go head to head in a pvp death match? I'm sure some would like that, and the pvpers would love it. Would you consider the raiders who don't want to pvp to finish the new operation entitled brats?

 

This happens in the game already. There are a number of things I'd like that I'd need to PvP for, and I simply accept the fact that I can live without some things.

 

Not sure why this is a difficult concept.

 

How about I put it this way. What if I asked for ALL solo content to be made doable as an 8-man group? I want to be able to experience the Smuggler story with my 8-man group! It's unfair I have to solo it! I demand no new content gets released if there's not an 8-man version of it!

 

Heaven forbid a story arc in a MMO ends with an epic battle where more than one player is required to defeat it.

 

The horror.

[VegasTheLost]

With SoR and ToS, you don't have even that.

 

For SoR and ToS there was a long operation drought, something had to happen in that area of the game. Ravagers was a standalone OP as not tied to the main storyline. As for ToS it was tied to the storytelling, our character grew with that expansion. And last but not least a truly epic enemy was the origin of the expansion, who deserved a really challenging raid to defeat. Something that was missing from Malgus IMO(main antagonist in the trailers, huge missed opportunity).

 

Anyway except ToS none of the operations affects our character's progress in the main storyline. This is the problem with the 'one suites for all' storytelling that we have now. If a new epic threat comes up in the story(Arcann, Vaylin, Valkorion/Vitiate) either you'll miss out a cool and challenging raid or you conclude it with that. The way I see it this is 2 wrongs. The 3rd option is that solo Revan fight that is you know... meh. NPCs doing stuff instead of you? Can't be good.

 

So to get back to the Oricon and DM OPs with this in mind, treat them as a secondary story because they have no affect to the main storyline. Why am I saying this? Either if you do them or not, nothing will happen.

[Unperson]

If Oricon was only offered to the people who completed the KP EC TfB SnV -chain, or if there was a way to end the solo story arc without defeating the Dread Masters, he quite possibly wouldn't have any problem with it. (I know I wouldn't.)

 

So... you're complaining because BW offered you a daily area and a faction to build rep with... which you can completely ignore, instead of gating it behind 4 ops? Is that it?

[Seireeni]

So... you're complaining because BW offered you a daily area and a faction to build rep with... which you can completely ignore, instead of gating it behind 4 ops? Is that it?

 

No, I just wish I was able to end the Oricon story without defeating the Dread Masters, or that they had done a daily area that had nothing to do with the Dread Masters and the ending for the DM arc separately.

[Jedi_riches]

No, he's not. He just feels they shouldn't be in the same storyline. I don't see him complaining about KP, EC, TfB or SnV, even though those had an ongoing storyline that was dealt purely through ops. If Oricon was only offered to the people who completed the KP EC TfB SnV -chain, or if there was a way to end the solo story arc without defeating the Dread Masters, he quite possibly wouldn't have any problem with it. (I know I wouldn't.)

 

 

 

QFT

 

Thanks I am glad that someone understands what I meant.

 

As for saying that the DM and Oricon arc is tangential I get what you are saying when it comes to the republic side, but when it comes to a imperial character it is much more relevant since your character quite possibly was the one who released them in the first place. I mean why have Oricon at all if the solo part of the story just comes to an abrupt end, it would have been better and possibly preferable if even Oricon itself was gated behind the prior operations and that there was nothing in the whole DM arc that could be accomplished solo and not call it chapter 5 either.

 

When it comes to group content I prefer it if they did not mix the 2 just make it a pure ops arc or grant solo options after the solo part of the story.

[VegasTheLost]

As for saying that the DM and Oricon arc is tangential I get what you are saying when it comes to the republic side, but when it comes to a imperial character it is much more relevant since your character quite possibly was the one who released them in the first place.

 

Matter of fact if you only play it on Imp side you miss out that Calpy survives the assault of the Palace/Council. So...

[Max_Killjoy]

"Just have a video" is NOT extending the logic of having two different game modes for solo and group when the storyline that's been introduced as solo missions (Oricon, dread seeds, Shroud, etc) and then currently wrap up in H4 or Ops.

 

If a storyline is going to end up gated in groupland, then it needs to start out gated in groupland so that it's quite clear to those of us for whom group content is simply more of a tedious chore than it's worth that we need to look elsewhere.

 

Instead, we get this nonsense where MMO devs (and a subject of the playerbase) believe that they can "suck" players into doing group content, and that it's not really an MMO if you're not grouping up and aiming for the endgame hamsterwheel.

[gabigool]

When it comes to group content I prefer it if they did not mix the 2 just make it a pure ops arc or grant solo options after the solo part of the story.

 

Dude I hear what you're saying, but Musco said a few weeks back that there won't be group content not tied into the story.

 

So - if that's the case, what you're asking for is for group content to HAVE to have a solo option.

 

At the cadence this team delivers content, all that means is less or diluted content.

 

My point is that I don't think ALL content needs to be desirable to ALL people.

[Seireeni]

Dude I hear what you're saying, but Musco said a few weeks back that there won't be group content not tied into the story.

 

So - if that's the case, what you're asking for is for group content to HAVE to have a solo option.

 

At the cadence this team delivers content, all that means is less or diluted content.

 

My point is that I don't think ALL content needs to be desirable to ALL people.

 

There's a difference between being tied to the story, and being the same story.

Several of my alts have not even accepted the Star Fortress quest, and it in no way seems to hinder their KotFE solo storyline.

Edited March 29, 2016 by Seireeni